I need help. The guy who I was debating against somehow convinced other people about the other world if destroyed would make Goku outerversal. I don’t know exactly what destroying the other world would prove for goku. 2C if he destroys the whole universe including the other world?
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Dragon ball universe crt
- Thread starter Omegabronic
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Pretty sure this is kinda off topic/derailing.
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@The_originator_of_ideas please stop derailing the thread with randomly off topic and out of place discussions. Thank you.
Sorry about that, but can you help me? Or do you know anyone who’s an expert in Dragonball?
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What I'm saying is that if they're aware that there is an "edge to the Universe" which they are close to, then there is literally no reason for their Observable Universe to be any bigger or the same as ours. Our "observable Universe" is so big (47 billion lightyear radius) because we can keeping seeing further and further without reaching the edge. But apparently in Dragon Ball they can see they edge.
Do you see what I'm getting at? You're saying "We're limited by the tech IRL so we can only see so far. In Dragon Ball they must be able to see even further than that... so it must be bigger" when the fact that they've discovered an edge to their Universe only means that we have no idea how far their observable Universe went before they struck the edge.
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Actually, that's another thing. How do we even know she saw the edge in the first place? She merely knows they "Live on the edge" simply because of King Kai's statement and NOT because they have technology to see the edge. Furthermore, they can't even see the center of the universe. Which means the center of the universe is a lot more than 47 lightyears away and by extension the opposite edge even further away.
Also, Toriyama's statement still considers Living Universe to be similar to our universe. Of course his work assumes things that the Earth is at the edge of the true universe where as ours could be either the edge or the center. But regardless, Dragon Ball still has their own version of Jupiter, Pluto, ect that are the same as ours. Their own version of the Andromeda Galaxy that is the same as ours, every discovered star IRL is still part of the Dragon Ball Universe. Including a supernova that is visible from 47 lightyears away. There are still objects, east, west, north, south, higher, and lower than the Earth 47 billion + lightyears away within the Dragon Ball Universe. And none of that have touched the true edge of the universe. Now speaking if Bulma actually did see the edge of the universe, it would still need to be minimum 47 billion lightyears away from Earth with the center of the universe being even further away. Which we get an edge of the universe being well over 94 billion lightyears away from the center. Thus a diameter will have to be 188 billion light years at bare minimum. Now do you get what I'm saying? We still can't ignore the fact that the sea of planets, stars, and galaxies that surround our Earth within a 47 billion lightyear omnidirectional scope still exist with there being even more space and an even bigger sea of stars, planets, cosmos, and galaxies, beyond those scopes. Now even if we assume that their scope is expansive to the point of seeing at least one edge, it would still have to be over 47 billion lightyears to even see that with them not being able to see the universe's center due to it being even further. As the southern scopes are still expanding.
Also, Toriyama's statement still considers Living Universe to be similar to our universe. Of course his work assumes things that the Earth is at the edge of the true universe where as ours could be either the edge or the center. But regardless, Dragon Ball still has their own version of Jupiter, Pluto, ect that are the same as ours. Their own version of the Andromeda Galaxy that is the same as ours, every discovered star IRL is still part of the Dragon Ball Universe. Including a supernova that is visible from 47 lightyears away. There are still objects, east, west, north, south, higher, and lower than the Earth 47 billion + lightyears away within the Dragon Ball Universe. And none of that have touched the true edge of the universe. Now speaking if Bulma actually did see the edge of the universe, it would still need to be minimum 47 billion lightyears away from Earth with the center of the universe being even further away. Which we get an edge of the universe being well over 94 billion lightyears away from the center. Thus a diameter will have to be 188 billion light years at bare minimum. Now do you get what I'm saying? We still can't ignore the fact that the sea of planets, stars, and galaxies that surround our Earth within a 47 billion lightyear omnidirectional scope still exist with there being even more space and an even bigger sea of stars, planets, cosmos, and galaxies, beyond those scopes. Now even if we assume that their scope is expansive to the point of seeing at least one edge, it would still have to be over 47 billion lightyears to even see that with them not being able to see the universe's center due to it being even further. As the southern scopes are still expanding.
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Even if all that were true, it still wouldn't make using the map for the calc as it currently is correct in my opinion.
You're not wrong that the results would still be above baseline Universe level. But that doesn't make sticking with the current status quo the correct option.
You're not wrong that the results would still be above baseline Universe level. But that doesn't make sticking with the current status quo the correct option.
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The map has been used for years and still does, newer DBS guides have the same map, why should we change it to a map of the observed Universe that is incomplete? It does not represent all macrocosm, unless you want to use the guides to declare the entire size of the other world and accept it as larger than the observed universe, this should not be accepted.
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I didn't say anything about changing it to a map of the observed Universe.
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So do you agree with our opinion?
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- Thread starter
- #451
yeah that is cool and all, but without a stated size we must go with the low end and assume the baseline observable universe size like we always do to any universe on the wiki, plus bulma didn't say that she find the edge of the universe, she says that they are the edge of the universe, they are at the edge and if they have tech like ours they wouldn't be able to see the center either way since they would be as limited as we are in seeing the whole universe, aka they would be seeing in a sphere motion just like we are and, that wouldn't make them see the center of the universe
what map of the observable universe are you talking about? this is not the proposal at all, i am just saying to use the observable universe size because that is litterally our standard assumption on this site, and again you keep ignoring the fact that there is nothing in the main cannon indicating that any of the other dimensions would be seeable in the first place, read the op again
your proposal is to still use the map to calc the size, which can't be used since it is straight up wrong in size
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The Universes you mentioned in the CRT is just the observed living Universe, without any realm including it, this observed Universe is incomplete, it was meant to be all realms.
No, it's not wrong, as I said before, it depends on the perspective that looks at the map, like in the real world, where we see something very big from afar and it looks small, but when we get close it's twice our size, there's nothing wrong with the map presented for years, the observed Universe is not in scale, it does not represent the whole macrocosm, but a part of it, where it is not possible to see the other kingdoms, it is wrong to use the observed Universe of the living, it is not complete, for it lacks kingdoms that are greater than the living universe. I won't comment further here, you just give repetitive arguments and it starts an infinite loop, so this is my last comment.
Edit:
I should mention here that LordGriffin agrees with Medeus points
I agree with Medeus and that is all
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proof of this?
and you are once gain ignoring the first points in the op
"1.1: there is nothing to say that they would be visible in the first place, the only thing that would suggest that they would is the macrocosm map and the guides, which isn't a good counter since what it is shown in the main cannon always takes priority over secondary cannon like the guides, so they not appearing is not a counter argument since they have no stated size whatsoever in the main canon of dbs, and things like guides are only secondary cannon with anything of the main cannon taking priority over it
1.2: even if you want to hard take the dimensions as needing to be visible however, we can clearly see multiple massive cosmic like objects in the map, so to say that some of them are the other dimensions is not too far fetched of an assumption, specially when we know that we are seeing the universe"
read them carefully this time, they not appearing means that they are not big enough to appear, or that one of the cosmic structures shown are the realms, i just seggested the former because it is a safer option
no ammount of perspective in the universer will make a 1.000.000km thing and a extremely small planet loom that massive in comparrison to the universe, at that perspective shown in the map, they wouldn't look so big as they currently do in the map
that is exactly the opposite situation from what is going on here, by what you said a smaller object would look even smaller from afar, if you want to use this logic to use the map you will be saying that king kai's planet is bigger than multiple solar systems even tho we see that it is the size of a building
prove this, i covered this above so i will not go in detail
there is no evidence in the main cannon itself that any kingdom is bigger than the living universe, we do not have any statement of their sizes even, we only have any statement of their sizes for the toei continuity, stop using this argument without directly addressing points 1, 1.1 and 1.2 of the original post, this was all already covered and you keep not addressing it and ignoring it, address it directly
i say the same to you, you keep ignoring the already covered points and them call me repetitive when you are the one who keeps repeating the same arguments without covering the points in the op that covers your said arguments
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And then? What do we do now?
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- Thread starter
- #455
currently waiting for the requested recalcs, but i will make a continuation of this thread for the manga
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What he does agree on is that the universe is not going to be baseline. Which almost everyone here agrees with.
Even with the map changes, the universe probably won't be baselined and that's already been said here.
And finally, he didn't give his opinion on the use of the maps, he just said that a specific point of Medus is convincing.
If he wants to, he can come here and change his vote at will.
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- #457
he agrees that the end result of the feat will not be baseline, he didn't agreed with anything regarding the actual topics of the thread
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@AKM sama @Elizhaa @SamanPatou @KLOL506 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Maverick_Zero_X @Starter_Pack @Sir_Ovens
Would you be willing to help out here please?
Would you be willing to help out here please?
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Also, can you provide an explanation regarding what is going on here and what should be done please, @DarkDragonMedeus ?
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Already said my piece, only one who can take it further forward are AKM and DDM.
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This thread is arguing this symbolic model of the Dragon Ball universe is not drawn to scale and thus calculations that treat it as such should be revised.
I haven’t checked here in awhile but I’m assuming the argument is just going in circles now.
Edit: There seemed to be some miscommunication somewhere. This thread passing would not make the DB universe baseline 3-A @DarkDragonMedeus
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- #463
just to say that i will be going to sleep now and will only respond to any points tomorrow, felt like i should say it as the op of the thread, good night everyone
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Maverick is correct. I have no problems with the Dragon Ball Universe being bigger than ours, but there is no indication that the map is to scale with the living world and should be treated as such.
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Basically, I still don't think the Globe has contradictions as far as the realm sizes are concerned. And I think the whole, "Snake way is perceived as 1/4th the size of the map" isn't a valid argument since there are plenty of times where we see bubble imagery as a metaphor for explaining the concept of parallel universes and all we see is like a single galaxy inside the bubble. Or better yet, the same methodology also applies to just seeing a random lake or forest in the bubble when looking outside the bubble, but clearly isn't just the size of a lake or a forest as opposed to an entire universe .
But I already elaborated by details that the sea of planets and stars that exist in our universe logically still exists and still surrounds Earth in the Dragon Ball universe while simultaneously still being just a spec within the very northern point of the living universe. 47 Billion Lightyears is still considered exceptionally close compared to the radius/diameter of the living universe and better yet the Other World or HFIL/Hell. So the realm portraying Otherworld dwarfing the living universe which should contain our perception on "The Observable universe" I still think isn't contradicted. If anything, I'd argue the original 40x size and by extension 200x 3-A via explosion that began at the edge and using ISL to get full result might actually lowballed if anything.
So yeah, I know the main focus of the OP is skepticism on the official globe and not the idea against the whole "3-A characters are well above baseline regardless". But I in the end still don't see any major reasons to see it as a contradiction. Though, I'm open if people want to attempt major recalculations based on my analysis however.
But I already elaborated by details that the sea of planets and stars that exist in our universe logically still exists and still surrounds Earth in the Dragon Ball universe while simultaneously still being just a spec within the very northern point of the living universe. 47 Billion Lightyears is still considered exceptionally close compared to the radius/diameter of the living universe and better yet the Other World or HFIL/Hell. So the realm portraying Otherworld dwarfing the living universe which should contain our perception on "The Observable universe" I still think isn't contradicted. If anything, I'd argue the original 40x size and by extension 200x 3-A via explosion that began at the edge and using ISL to get full result might actually lowballed if anything.
So yeah, I know the main focus of the OP is skepticism on the official globe and not the idea against the whole "3-A characters are well above baseline regardless". But I in the end still don't see any major reasons to see it as a contradiction. Though, I'm open if people want to attempt major recalculations based on my analysis however.
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I think the arguments of Medeus quite attractive and the LordGriffin agrees with his arguments on the verse, I think we can do this.
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What do you think of the opinion of Medeus?
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@DarkDragonMedeus I understand your arguments, but I think you'd also need to present the relevant scans thst you're basing it on.
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if you are arguing about metaphors imagery here, what exactly is stopping the map itself to be just that? a metaphor image, as in a non literal representation but merely an illustration of how the realms and the things in them are while not being literal, it seems like a double standard to consider some aspects to be just metaphor illustrations and other to be literal, why would only some aspects be a metaphor on contrary to the whole map being a metaphor of it's own?
why should it exist? it all of our observable universe existed arround the db Earth they wouldn't be on the "edge" of the whole universe at all, they are on the edge so they must have scan the area and saw that the universe ends at a very close point to their location
what do you mean by "close"? we only know that the Earth in db is in the edge of their universe, we have no information aside from that so to assume that all of the planets and stars that exist arround our Earth irl exist around the db Earth even when the position is incredibely different and they are on the very end of their universe seems like a complicated and very assumptive route rather than just take things at face value
we have no idea how big the otherworld is outside of the calculation of the map, how could we say that it is that big?
just as a note, the accepted size and calc for it is only barely 2x our irl universe size and 27x 3-A baseline going by the profiles
there is still point 1 of the op about how the anime straight up does not use the macrocosm map at all, i would like to know your opinion on that
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plus he said that he has his own interpretation of the map, so i think it would be wise to not speak by him and just call him here to explain himself
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I already provided the scan about "Earth being near the edge of the universe", also, there was an interview where Akira statement that "Their universe being the same as ours" also considered the fact that Observable Universe is miniscule compared to the actual universe but that everything we have seen in our universe is something that exists in their universe. As for a scan for that interview, I forgot where it was but someone else brought it up in a different thread a while back. But as usually, I am trying to get prepared for this day's work shift so may not be the best equipped at least until I take care of some of those duties early and still have plenty of time before work.
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The current changes to AP and speed values, based on the information presented might be as follows:
Since Earth is confirmed to be at the edge of the living universe , the AP for the living universe would be 4x baseline universe level due to inverse square law.
Add + 4x baseline universe level for the afterlife + hell following the same principle, thanks to both occupying the same space.
Bear in mind that is only if they’re confirmed as universe sized within canon DBS.
Kaioshin realm is only a marginal increase as it is only 1/10th the size of the afterlife+hell+living world, which doesn’t even amount to baseline universal on its own from a quick glance
Speed is cut in half from current values as the extra distance portrayed in the maps used to calc is instead replaced by one universal diameter instead because again, earth is at the edge of the universe.
Even when we disregard the extra realms, the lone destruction of the living universe is 4x above baseline, since a whole universal diameter has to be input in the calc, rather than the universal radius assumed for our baseline 3-A value.
Since Earth is confirmed to be at the edge of the living universe , the AP for the living universe would be 4x baseline universe level due to inverse square law.
Add + 4x baseline universe level for the afterlife + hell following the same principle, thanks to both occupying the same space.
Bear in mind that is only if they’re confirmed as universe sized within canon DBS.
Kaioshin realm is only a marginal increase as it is only 1/10th the size of the afterlife+hell+living world, which doesn’t even amount to baseline universal on its own from a quick glance
Speed is cut in half from current values as the extra distance portrayed in the maps used to calc is instead replaced by one universal diameter instead because again, earth is at the edge of the universe.
Even when we disregard the extra realms, the lone destruction of the living universe is 4x above baseline, since a whole universal diameter has to be input in the calc, rather than the universal radius assumed for our baseline 3-A value.
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https://imgur.io/a/qvCOytd#NmOhhGY there’s also an additional scan that says that as well
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The previously used map appears in the latest DBS guide, in the anime it is just a representation of the observed living Universe, it is not to scale, it is missing the realms, which in fact are used in the map represented by the macrocosm created by Akira toriyama
This is the map used in the latest DBS guide
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- Thread starter
- #475
yeah, baseline 3-A feat was never, ever, the proposal here, but what you just described is that the feat would be 4x baseline 3-A, not the universe is 4x the baseline universe in size tho
altho, that says "based on" therefore there can be differences, which we know there is since Earth is on the edge of the universe
i asked you multiple times to provide evidence for this that it is not already covered in the op, could you please give them?
says who?
covered in point 1.1 and 1.2 in the op, if you are going to say that address them directly please
which is clearly still wrong independently of point 1
the actual show itself, aka the main cannon>>>any secondary cannon like guides
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Sure, but it's relatively the same size, hence the whole "based on". Obviously, there will be differences.
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- #477
yeah of course, that is a given
Guacamolefletcher
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not really and not properly
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sarcasm, that was me making fun of how stating "i refuted your arguments" is not an argument
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But do people actually use the map as a scaling method for calcs or just as a positional reference? Cuz getting the rid of the map despite it being used again and again as the major representation isn't correct imho
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