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I agree, tbh. Not because they were a bad introduction, as expanding lore can always be done well, but the writing and tension definitely weren't as good as before.
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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 74: Broly Hype is unstoppable
- Thread starter TISSG7Redgrave
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Like, Goku's at this point of power where it makes question where the stakes are especially since he has Ultra Instinct which apparently loves to act as a plot device whenever Goku's moments away from death.
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I mean, the best arc IMHO is the Saiyan's and that one introduced Kaiosama with all the implications and I enjoyed it
The same with the 23 Tournament that'd not be as good without Kami.
The same with the 23 Tournament that'd not be as good without Kami.
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Lemme rephrase that: Dragon Ball was better before Gods of Destruction & Angels got involved.Dragomer said:
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Wasn't Roshi called the God of Martial Arts?
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How is this unpopular? Many people think this.DaBoiWhoOwnsMods said:
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Modern dragon balls plot has 0 substance
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DragonEmperor23 said:
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I don't think it was filler but I could be wrong.
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It was filler, but it was a nice character moment for Gohan though and cool scene but I don't see how that was a representation of Goku being a bad father.
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They could have easily just had Beerus go back to sleep after BoG and have him order Whis to train 'that interesting saiyan fellow' for entertainment when he wakes up. Then Goku could easily convince Whis to train Vegeta as well (although I feel as if an argument could be made that Vegeta could have gone down his own path here).
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Did anyone else also think that Paragus' scouter was showing a PL of around 2000 when he scanned a spider monster of planet Vampa? Didn't he also say that Broly (with a PL of 920) couldn't kill that creature?
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I think the tension is better since the normal dragon balls have become insignificant.The real cal howard said:
I'll take high tier and highly indifferent deities over magical balls that just reverse all damage.
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The whole point of fusion is to create a warroior who is superior to the strongest forms of their fusees. That's why Goku and Vegeta decided to fuse because their max powers couldn't do anything against Buuhan. That's why base Kefla was stronger than both of Kale and Caulifla's strongest forms.
Obviously back in the BoG saga, base Vegito would have been stronger than SSJ3 Goku but that increase would have been insignificant against Beerus' insame strength which Goku witnessed. Now however, the base fusion would at least be stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta. That's how fusion works.
Obviously back in the BoG saga, base Vegito would have been stronger than SSJ3 Goku but that increase would have been insignificant against Beerus' insame strength which Goku witnessed. Now however, the base fusion would at least be stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta. That's how fusion works.
Dust_Collector
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I've always loved how absurdly large the boost fusion grants is. I mean base Goten and Trunks were weaker than base Goku and Vegeta yet Gotenks during his fight with Super Buu was comparable to or stronger than SS3 Goku in just his base form. It's ridiculous and I love it.
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I think the INTRODUCTION of the Gods per se (with Beerus and Whis) was well done as it opened a new door for the Z fighters.
A door they barely exploit though, we have now a literal multiverse, and we are still stranded on Earth, the concept we were given (God Ki, Goku and Vegeta's throwing away their pride for the sake of saving others) are barely touched upon. If anything, Resurrection F was a mistake because it literally made the scales weaker (when it could have been easy to keep them open by having another God of Destruction be behind Freeza's return, if you really wanted to bring that guy back*).
Why do we keep the adventure still on Earth dealing with 'small fries' who have yet to surpass the Gods when we have by now TWO tiers, with only Tournament being the key thing?
I like Super, however, when it tries to be 'nuanced', for a lack of a better term: the writing of Vegeta, the whole parts with Roshi finally overcoming his perveerted behaviour, 17, the motivations of Zamasu, or Goku's more peaceful and naive stance in Broly where he doesn't know what 'repugnant' means, yet remembers it and then proceeds to hunt for Broly to give him a better staying. Toriyama's writing is charming, no matter what. Just compare Broly (Super) to... Broly (Z). Broly!Z has a bigger lore behind his power and a more 'epic' backstory, Broly!Super is still the better character
On a side, I like better what Super Dragonball Heroes is doing, by giving us Demon Realms, an planet created by a literal clump of pieces of the many universes, and now a group who aims to overthrow Zen'O... but even that is ruined by how the characters are bland as a piece of stale breathe. Did ANYONE care about Kanba's personality?
I just wish we were able to give a good balance between Toei's stakes and premises but carefully nuanced with Toriyama's writing that can be best described as 'accidentally brilliant'.
NOTE: I love Freeza and his current development in both the Tournament of Power and Broly, but his first return in Resurrection F was weak
A door they barely exploit though, we have now a literal multiverse, and we are still stranded on Earth, the concept we were given (God Ki, Goku and Vegeta's throwing away their pride for the sake of saving others) are barely touched upon. If anything, Resurrection F was a mistake because it literally made the scales weaker (when it could have been easy to keep them open by having another God of Destruction be behind Freeza's return, if you really wanted to bring that guy back*).
Why do we keep the adventure still on Earth dealing with 'small fries' who have yet to surpass the Gods when we have by now TWO tiers, with only Tournament being the key thing?
I like Super, however, when it tries to be 'nuanced', for a lack of a better term: the writing of Vegeta, the whole parts with Roshi finally overcoming his perveerted behaviour, 17, the motivations of Zamasu, or Goku's more peaceful and naive stance in Broly where he doesn't know what 'repugnant' means, yet remembers it and then proceeds to hunt for Broly to give him a better staying. Toriyama's writing is charming, no matter what. Just compare Broly (Super) to... Broly (Z). Broly!Z has a bigger lore behind his power and a more 'epic' backstory, Broly!Super is still the better character
On a side, I like better what Super Dragonball Heroes is doing, by giving us Demon Realms, an planet created by a literal clump of pieces of the many universes, and now a group who aims to overthrow Zen'O... but even that is ruined by how the characters are bland as a piece of stale breathe. Did ANYONE care about Kanba's personality?
I just wish we were able to give a good balance between Toei's stakes and premises but carefully nuanced with Toriyama's writing that can be best described as 'accidentally brilliant'.
NOTE: I love Freeza and his current development in both the Tournament of Power and Broly, but his first return in Resurrection F was weak
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I agree. I feel as if Whis's time rewinding should never have existed. Frieza blowing up the Earth and staying alive could have made for an interesting long-term plot that would have had massive weight in the Tournament of Power if Frieza were somehow convinced to aid them.
Have some sort of plot ploint like Namek being destroyed (again) after a big conflict which would add a lot more tension and weight to the idea of getting the Super Dragon Balls in the Universe 6 vs 7 mini-arc. It would have made Hit a far more dangerous and opposing antagonist and would have put into perspective how selfish and uncaring Beerus and Champa actually are about Goku (and his friend's) plight.
The Black arc could have started after Hit gave up and the Z Fighters wish for the Earth and everyone on it to come back.
Maybe toss in some side arc after the Black arc featuring Frieza and his learning of the Earth coming back which causes an investigation into the events between Universe 6 and 7 which would add as a powerful motivator for him to join the ToP when he discovers the Super Dragon Balls via Zuno.
An alternative option I feel...would be if the Universe 6 arc was revamped to be an actual standard sized arc which takes place over the course of both Universe 6 and 7. Some sort of Mini-GT where the Z-Fighters have to compete with a crew from Universe 6 to collect the Super Dragon Balls across both universes. Have Zeno show up at the end, take the balls, and he childishly says that is 'keeping them' for something 'better' (Obviously foreshadowing the Tournament of Power).
The Tournament of Power would then be a huge test of Goku and Vegeta's selfishness and their need to bring back their loved ones. They would have to throw every last bit of pride and push themselves far beyond their capabilities to survive and win the Dragon Balls. It would make the ending more poetic as well with them essentially throwing away a wish that could restore all of the erased universes in-favour of restoring a single world. This would make them more like selfish heroes and make the entire tournament far more morally ambiguous. It would also make Goku's choice to remind Zeno of the tournament far more sensible.
Another issue with Super that should be brought up is how badly it disrespects God Ki. Seriously...we should only see Blue be used once a arc. The only opponents that warrant it are Black, Zamasu (Merged), Frieza, Hit and Beerus...the major antagonists of each arc. It would make the Tournament of Power more like a test of power considering it would be the first time we see the god forms spammed relentlessly and desperately to stay in the game and win those Super DBs.
Have some sort of plot ploint like Namek being destroyed (again) after a big conflict which would add a lot more tension and weight to the idea of getting the Super Dragon Balls in the Universe 6 vs 7 mini-arc. It would have made Hit a far more dangerous and opposing antagonist and would have put into perspective how selfish and uncaring Beerus and Champa actually are about Goku (and his friend's) plight.
The Black arc could have started after Hit gave up and the Z Fighters wish for the Earth and everyone on it to come back.
Maybe toss in some side arc after the Black arc featuring Frieza and his learning of the Earth coming back which causes an investigation into the events between Universe 6 and 7 which would add as a powerful motivator for him to join the ToP when he discovers the Super Dragon Balls via Zuno.
An alternative option I feel...would be if the Universe 6 arc was revamped to be an actual standard sized arc which takes place over the course of both Universe 6 and 7. Some sort of Mini-GT where the Z-Fighters have to compete with a crew from Universe 6 to collect the Super Dragon Balls across both universes. Have Zeno show up at the end, take the balls, and he childishly says that is 'keeping them' for something 'better' (Obviously foreshadowing the Tournament of Power).
The Tournament of Power would then be a huge test of Goku and Vegeta's selfishness and their need to bring back their loved ones. They would have to throw every last bit of pride and push themselves far beyond their capabilities to survive and win the Dragon Balls. It would make the ending more poetic as well with them essentially throwing away a wish that could restore all of the erased universes in-favour of restoring a single world. This would make them more like selfish heroes and make the entire tournament far more morally ambiguous. It would also make Goku's choice to remind Zeno of the tournament far more sensible.
Another issue with Super that should be brought up is how badly it disrespects God Ki. Seriously...we should only see Blue be used once a arc. The only opponents that warrant it are Black, Zamasu (Merged), Frieza, Hit and Beerus...the major antagonists of each arc. It would make the Tournament of Power more like a test of power considering it would be the first time we see the god forms spammed relentlessly and desperately to stay in the game and win those Super DBs.
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I dont kno where the whole goku >>>>>>> vegeta came from (i do know, i dont understand) when we saw them fighting evenly in the beginning and fight together as a ssb, where both were pretty much shown as equals. If anything, vegeta was the one who didnt show his full power as ssg, as goku interrupted him.
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Frieza's Plan:Ryukama said:
1) I use Broly as a weapon against Goku and Vegeta!
2) I kill his father to make him stronger!
3) Broly is now after me!
4) Broly is now after me!
You better get on this meme ovo
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A few seconds of Goku and Vegeta doing some friendly sparring is not a good enough excuse to discount what was shown to us on film, what was written down to us in the novel, and what was stated by WoG.Ovrhide said:
Goku is notorious for holding back his power. Did you forget Goku went Blue and struggled against Krillin in a friendly spar in Super? He wants his fights and spars to be fun.
Saying that Vegeta and Goku fought on an equal level when they were just sparing, is ridiculous.
Vegeta was also shocked at Broly being able to tank his punch without flinching.
Could Vegeta still be holding back power? Possibly, but Vegeta was adamant in killing Broly - even against Goku's wishes, and that's why Goku interrupted him and fought him, but in his base state.
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Vegeta wasn't holding back at all. Feeling his incomplete Rage transformation (before buffing up) Vegeta IMMEDIATELY asked Goku for a Senzu Bean.The fact he did notcomplain when Goku forcefully tagged himself in makes me think he knew already that his Blue form was not going to be enough to harm Wrath Broly
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@Overhide @Warren @Xantospoc
There's the revision thread going on for a reason you know.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2646331?useskin=oasis
There's the revision thread going on for a reason you know.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2646331?useskin=oasis
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I thought this was the revision thread lol.
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Another thing I don't get is why Goku and Vegeta never brought up to Broly and Paragus that Frieza destroyed their planet. I know they wouldn't care but Goku and Vegeta don't know that. To them, that'd be a pretty sensible thing for them to mention to them. Maybe something like "Why are you two working with the person who destroyed our race?" or something like that.AKM sama said:
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goku tried to calm him down bbut yes they should have mentioned itRyukama said:
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Paragus DID sacrifice his life. He directly went against the king of his entire race that was allied with the Frieza Force, the galactic government. He essentially made himself an enemy and traitor to his entire world and arguably the entire galactic government by interfering with orders from the King and aiming to rescue his son.
I honestly tire of discussions where people try to demonise a person (fictional or not) over an extremely tunneled opinion of their actions. Goku himself isn't perfect nor is he evil incarnate. He is just a guy with a lot of power and a lot of selfish desires that sometimes forgets he is dealing with humans and half-humans that barely understand his alien interests.
I honestly tire of discussions where people try to demonise a person (fictional or not) over an extremely tunneled opinion of their actions. Goku himself isn't perfect nor is he evil incarnate. He is just a guy with a lot of power and a lot of selfish desires that sometimes forgets he is dealing with humans and half-humans that barely understand his alien interests.
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