Dragon Ball Super Broly Revisions

So since the movie has been out for quite a while now I might as well make the thread now. But before we go on to the changes we have to get the current powerscaling out of the way.

As we all know after breaking his limits and unlocking SSBE Vegeta was pretty much equal to Post-2nd UIS SSBKK Goku. And later on he powered up even further when he fought GoD Toppo. And we have confirmatio that SSBE = SSBKK. Which means Vegeta's SSB form should also be comparable if not stronger than Post-2nd UIS Goku's SSB form (which is Low 2-C) after his fight with Toppo.

Now we can get on with the scaling.

Goku
First off for Goku we need to make a separate key for Post-Ultra Instinct/Broly Saga Goku. Since Post-Ultra Instinct/Broly Saga Goku =/= Post-2nd Ultra Instinct Sign Goku.

Back in the ToP when Jiren was overpowering Golden Frieza and Android 17 at the same time a severely weakened Base Goku stepped in and saved them by erecting a barrier to stop the blast. And as some of you may know already there are quite a few people who disagrees with this because they said all of them should be weakened at the time and Base Goku becoming stronger than his previous god forms is absurd. However that doesn't matter since this is merely a supporting feat.

In the Broly Saga we see Base Goku fighting and even making Wrath Broly (Before adapting to SSG Goku) block his attacks. Just a few minutes prior to this Wrath Broly was able to completely no sell SSG Vegeta's kicks and punches in both the movie and the light novel without blocking. And after he turned SS1 he was able to fight relatively evenly with Wrath Broly for a period of time and even surprised him with his speed once during the battle. In the light novel it also said that Wrath Broly was having a equal battle with SS1 Goku. And before anybody screams outlier this is consistent with the interview stating Vegeta is desperately trying to catch up to Goku. And the fact that Goku gained another Limit Break boost near the end of the tournament when he was equal to Vegeta.

This means that Broly Saga Base Goku is stronger than Post-Limit Break SSG Vegeta and his SS1 form should be stronger than Post-Limit Break SSB Vegeta (since SSB is basically the SS1 version of SSG) who is stronger than Post-2nd UIS SSB Goku because his SSBE form was initially equal to Post-2nd UIS SSBKK Goku before powering up in his fight with GoD Toppo. And we have confirmation that SSBE = SSBKK

Finally in the Broly movie interview it's said that Broly Saga Goku is close to being a God which means his full power (SSB in the movie) is close to the God of Destructions such as Beerus who is comparable to the Third UIS.

So tldr Goku needs a new key and he's gonna be 3-A in base and Low 2-C with all of his transformations. This will pretty much be how it will look.

Attack Potency: 3-A (Was able to somewhat keep up with and make initial Wrath Broly block some of his attacks), Low 2-C with transformations (Stronger than Broly Saga SSB Vegeta as a SS1 and becomes even stronger with higher transformations. As a SSB he is nearly as strong as a God of Destruction)

Key: Post-Ultra Instinct/Broly Saga

Vegeta
Now onto Vegeta we should rename his Post-Tournament of Power/Broly Saga key to Post-Limit Break/Broly Saga since he didn't get another massive boost like Goku did after breaking his limits once. And the description needs to be updated as he's no longer equal to Broly Saga Goku from what we've seen in the movie and according to the interview. His new description should look like this.

Attack Potency: 3-A, Low 2-C with Super Saiyan Blue (Comparable if not stronger than Post-2nd UIS SSB Goku)

Key: Post-Limit Break/Broly Saga

Broly
Broly doesn't really change that much. We just need to add a description for his Wrath key before he adapted to SSG Goku. It will probably look something like this.

Attack Potency: 3-A | Low 2-C (Easily overpowered Broly Saga SSG Vegeta and fought evenly with Broly Saga SS1 Goku. After getting even stronger he managed to keep up with Broly Saga SSB Goku) | Low 2-C | Low 2-C

Key: Base | Wrath/Ikari (Oozaru Power) | Super Saiyan | Super Saiyan (Full Power)

Reasons for and against revision
Reasons for Goku being stronger than Vegeta

1. Goku gained another limit breaking boost while Vegeta didn't at the end of the Tournament of Power when they were equal to each other. And we know that after every limit break boost Goku becomes vastly stronger than before. So by logic after the boost Goku should be stronger than Vegeta.

2. Word of God stated Vegeta is desperately trying to catch up to Goku who is near the Gods.

3. Base Goku holds his own against initial Wrath Broly better than SSG Vegeta did.

4. SS1 Goku was shown and stated to be nearly equal to initial Wrath Broly who was shown and stated to be overpowering SSG Vegeta.

Eeasons against Goku being stronger than Vegeta

1. Vegeta and Goku are always treated as equals. Therefore they should still be equal no matter what.

2. At the end of the anime they were shown to be equal in a short spar as SSB.

3. In the movie they were shown to be equal in Base in a short spar.

4. Vegeta and Goku were seemingly shown to be equal as SSBs against Broly.

following

Makes sense to me.

Make sense to me.

Agreed. Hopefully this doesn't go to hell like the other thread.

I think I was the one that mentioned this in the first place.

And with it being corroborated in every form of media, I think this makes sense.

Have you messaged knowledgables to come give their input?

This better not end well.

Obviously disagreed. If this goes through the whole Dragon Ball scaling will be screwed here and I lot of casual visitors will be confused since I highly doubt any of them think SSJ Goku>SSG Vegeta. Obviously, I don't either. Its an absurd argument taking statements at 100% face value and ignoring both of the Goku and Vegeta fights that showed them as equals.

Goku should stay as he is. 3-A and Low 2-C with Super Saiyan Blue. Blue Goku is not close to God of Destruction tier. SSJ Broly is not above Beerus, LB Jiren, or MUI Goku. Blue Vegeta is not weaker than SSJ Goku.

It's not just statements. In the movie we straight up see SS1 Goku fight evenly with initial Wrath Broly. And in the light novel they straight up said SS1 Goku is having a nearly equal match with initial Wrath Broly. And then there's the statement about Vegeta desperately trying to catch up to Goku. There's currently more evidence for Goku being absurdly stronger than Vegeta than the two of them being equal.

@DragonEmperor I didn't message knowledgeable members cause I thought the topic is already big enough to draw attention.

Nope.

SSJ Goku failed to damage Broly in the movie itself. No point in relying on the novel when it is non main continuity to my knowledge. You're ignoring the fact that God Vegeta was fully capable of blocking Rage Broly's hits himself and was never truly overpowered before Goku stepped in. The beginning of the movie is also being ignored where Base Goku and Vegeta fight and never once is it implied Goku was heavily holding back to placate Vegeta. Same with 131. If Goku was so strong, why fight with Super Saiyan Blue? Apparently, Super Saiyan 1 would be enough.

I have already stated that Vegeta is trying to catch up to Goku at his strongest, ie, Ultra Instinct. Vegeta is nowhere near MUI level yet. Has nothing to do with him supposedly being fodder to SSJ1 Goku when the two times they've fought they were equals.

Edit: Forgot to mention the whole "SSB Vegeta holds off Broly as well As Goku does. Using the novel, since you're using it, isn't it flat out stated both of them are able to budge SSJ Broly? Not just Goku?

Edit 2: Also if Current Blue Goku is GoD tier then how is Full Power SSJ Broly only possibly above Beerus? Or are we ignoring that statement to rely on stuff outside of the movie or the novel that assumes has that statement?

Also, I'm out for now. If upgrade goes through I'm probably not going to contribute to this site anymore.

I don't think Super Saiyan Goku was on par with Broly honestly, it seems more like inconsistency

A power disparity between Goku and Vegeta would defeat the purpose of both.

I'm sorry but I agree with SuperDragoon978 and DMUA

I agree with DMUA. Super Saiyan Goku is not on par with Broly, that's inconsistency.

Ikari Broly was stomping both Super Saiyan God Goku and Super Saiyan God Vegeta and even fought Blue Goku for a while before being overwhelmed.

Super Saiyan Goku is not on his level.

Especially considering Broly proceeded to turn him into "Puny Super Saiyan God" forcing him into an overdramatic transformation into Blue that honestly could have been cut short to just save time to actually raise tension when the villain is a literal cinnamon roll

Goku was screaming for 3 minutes straight while smacked around.

DMUA said:

Especially considering Broly proceeded to turn him into "Puny Super Saiyan God"

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Lol I said the same thing to my friend after that scene. Broly totally went Hulk on his ass.

I also disagree with ssj goku being above vegeta.

Might take a moment to me to address all the different points. On one hand, it's hard to pin point exactly how strong Goku and Vegeta are with their various transformations; but there's actually other details.

SSBE Vegeta does appear to be on par ish with SSBKK Goku; though it probably depends which level of Kaioken that is. Also, Dark649 mentioned this on another thread, but I too disagree with Goku's base form or SS1 forms being stronger than SSG Vegeta. That's kind of the same thing as saying base form Goku is superior to SSB Vegeta in Universe 6 saga. It's better said that Goku studied Broly more and figured out his patterns. Goku is officially stronger of the two overall, but Vegeta isn't too much weaker base forms shouldn be weaker than the other's SSJ transformations; especially not God or Blue. As for Broly, I think 3-A, later rises to Low 2-C actually makes sense for his 2nd key.

I'd like to hear more input before giving an approval, but basically the general consensus so far on the paragraph above.

Matthew Schroeder said:

Ikari Broly was stomping both Super Saiyan God Goku and Super Saiyan God Vegeta and even fought Blue Goku for a while before being overwhelmed.

Super Saiyan Goku is not on his level.

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To be fair that was Post-adaptation Wrath Broly not Pre-adaptation Wrath Broly who was slightly stronger than SS1 Goku. When he first fought SS1 Goku he was around Goku's size. By the time he started to stomp SSG Goku he was nearly twice Goku's size.

SuperDragoon978 said:

Nope.
SSJ Goku failed to damage Broly in the movie itself. No point in relying on the novel when it is non main continuity to my knowledge. You're ignoring the fact that God Vegeta was fully capable of blocking Rage Broly's hits himself and was never truly overpowered before Goku stepped in. The beginning of the movie is also being ignored where Base Goku and Vegeta fight and never once is it implied Goku was heavily holding back to placate Vegeta. Same with 131. If Goku was so strong, why fight with Super Saiyan Blue? Apparently, Super Saiyan 1 would be enough.

I have already stated that Vegeta is trying to catch up to Goku at his strongest, ie, Ultra Instinct. Vegeta is nowhere near MUI level yet. Has nothing to do with him supposedly being fodder to SSJ1 Goku when the two times they've fought they were equals.

Edit: Forgot to mention the whole "SSB Vegeta holds off Broly as well As Goku does. Using the novel, since you're using it, isn't it flat out stated both of them are able to budge SSJ Broly? Not just Goku?

Edit 2: Also if Current Blue Goku is GoD tier then how is Full Power SSJ Broly only possibly above Beerus? Or are we ignoring that statement to rely on stuff outside of the movie or the novel that assumes has that statement?

Also, I'm out for now. If upgrade goes through I'm probably not going to contribute to this site anymore.

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"If Goku was so strong, why fight with Super Saiyan Blue?"

You know this is the guy that went Blue and struggled to fight against ******* Krillin, right?

Goku. Holds. Back. All. The. *******. Time.


Using two brief scenes where Goku's in a spar against a comrade to try and debunk what was visually shown to us, what was written down in a light novel adaptation, and what was stated by W.o.G. to be true is what is ridiculous.

Didn't Broly have to adapt to Goku like 3 times before he got stomped, even changing is size?

Goku and Vegeta are always treated as comprable and the takeway to be taken from the scene of them sparring is that they are still friendly rivals constantly trying to surpass one another.

The notion that Base Goku is stronger than SSJ God Vegeta because of a brief scene that wasn't written or animated with powerscaling in mind at all is absurd. Specially since Goku clearly isn't as strong as Broly even in God Form.

Broly never changed his size further after becoming Ikari.

Sometimes an outlier is just an outlier, guys.

Matthew Schroeder said:

Goku and Vegeta are always treated as comprable and the takeway to be taken from the scene of them sparring is that they are still friendly rivals constantly trying to surpass one another.
The notion that Base Goku is stronger than SSJ God Vegeta because of a brief scene that wasn't written or animated with powerscaling in mind at all is absurd. Specially since Goku clearly isn't as strong as Broly even in God Form.

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They are portrayed as comparable yes but always with Vegeta being a step behind.

Also you can say that Goku being THAT much above Vegeta is an outlier but saying they are dead equal is directly contradicted by what we saw and what was stated, Vegeta is one step behind as usual, that much is clear.

@Warren, please don't compare Broly and Krillin to each other; yes, Goku holds back against fodder characters like Krillin but not against seriously strong opponents like Broly.

Vegeta is always one step behind yes, but on the same ballpark. What the OP is suggesting is that Vegeta is several light-years behind.

DarkDragonMedeus said:

@Warren, please don't compare Broly and Krillin to each other; yes, Goku holds back against fodder characters but not against seriously strong opponents like Broly.

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He did hold back against Kale too, who is a much better comparison.

@Matthew He actually did change his size


This is initial Wrath Broly that SS1 Goku fought


This was Wrath Broly when he was stomping SSG Goku

Matthew Schroeder said:

Vegeta is always one step behind yes, but on the same ballpark. What the OP is suggesting is that Vegeta is several light-years behind.

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Which is why i said it's acceptable to consider it an outlier, not that i really share that view but it's a fair interpretation of the events.

That's just perspective Peter.

Matthew Schroeder said:

Goku and Vegeta are always treated as comprable and the takeway to be taken from the scene of them sparring is that they are still friendly rivals constantly trying to surpass one another.
The notion that Base Goku is stronger than SSJ God Vegeta because of a brief scene that wasn't written or animated with powerscaling in mind at all is absurd. Specially since Goku clearly isn't as strong as Broly even in God Form.

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Goku and Vegeta have rarely ever been on an even playing field with one another and are usually the exact opposite.


"The notion that Base Goku is stronger than SSJ God Vegeta because of a brief scene that wasn't written or animated with power scaling in mind at all is absurd."

With this idea in mind, then all need for powerscaling just gets thrown out the window.


Not to mention it is false. Broly is shown to adapt and grow monstrously stronger in just a few minutes. He went from being weaker to base Vegeta to being comparable to God Vegeta in just a few moments.

Saying that Broly was stronger than God Goku ignores the massive amps in power that Broly had throughout the movie and the entire fight scenes where Goku was shown to be comparable to Broly in lower forms.

For example, remember when Goku first became God, and causally deflect Broly's punch and then paralyzed him? And then remember how in just a couple of seconds later, Broly powered up and not just broke the paralysis, but managed to paralyze God Goku which then lead to Goku needing to go Blue.

That was a clear growth in power, and Broly did that numerous times throughout his fights with Vegeta, Goku, and Gogeta.

@Matthew


There's this scene when Goku was still able to trade blows with Wrath Broly


And this scene when Goku wa sgetting stomped by Broly

DarkDragonMedeus said:

@Warren, please don't compare Broly and Krillin to each other; yes, Goku holds back against fodder characters like Krillin but not against seriously strong opponents like Broly.

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You misconstrued what I wrote.

I compared Krillin with Vegeta, not Broly.

A friend that he was sparing with, and that them struggling with each other isn't a good reason to ignore what is visually shown to us, what was written down in novel form, and what the creators in interviews state.

Matthew Schroeder said:

Vegeta is always one step behind yes, but on the same ballpark. What the OP is suggesting is that Vegeta is several light-years behind.

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Vegeta is several light-years behind since Goku mastered Ultra Instinct ovo

But in all seriousness yeah SSJ Goku ain't above SSB Vegeta.

What about SSG Vegeta than? Cause they made it pretty clear in the light novel and movie that SS1 Goku is comparable to initial Wrath Broly while SSG Vegeta couldn't even faze him.

Goku and Vegeta have usually been pretty evenly matched across all of Dragon Ball Super. The only difference is that Goku gets new transformations first but Vegeta finds ways to catch up.

Goku and Vegeta are treated as fairly equal in their SSB forms during the end of ToP and fairly equal in their Base forms during the beginning of Broly. SSJ1 being above SSB or even SSG Vegeta is a major contradiction. Unless Goku both got some ridonkulous boost in the short gap between and somehow drastically increased the multiplier of SSJ1.

I agree with Ryukama as well.

Tbh i dont understand why its a problem for Base Goku to be ahead of a SSG but we were all ok with SSJ Goku (Post Absorbed/Fighting Beerus) being stronger then his 1st SSG transformation or that Base Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks....