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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 61: It's almost time and 30 secs in an episode is a thing
- Thread starter TISSG7Redgrave
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No. But Heores does follow Xenoverse stories. Demigra's Xenoverse death is refrenced in Heroes
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Has SDBH Ultimate mission x come out yet?
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So it will turn out eventually that UI Goku really is strongest Goku
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He is. He beat GoD Toppo.
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- Thread starter
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actually....i just saw some spoilers for 131 and this didn't surprise me though sad lol
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Ultimate Jonathan exists.
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Novel.
He had been kept as a head by erina and eventually had his body back after Dio made body ultimate.
He had been kept as a head by erina and eventually had his body back after Dio made body ultimate.
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Beyond andarrow house first man.
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What a disappointment. Time to add another L to Goku's list.
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Purple Haze the book first.
Have an actual plot which is understandable.man.
Fugo also nice
Have an actual plot which is understandable.man.
Fugo also nice
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Major essay in which I'll ineviatably be called an "apologist" incoming...
Look how many forms Goku got throughout the series without coming close to reaching Beerus. It makes sense for 2 (though technically 1 form with a previous incomplete version of it) to not be enough to reach Jiren.
I personally think it's better writing for Goku to still be below Jiren than for him to asspull this insane power that vastly dwarfs how powerful he's gotten over the course of entire arcs within just a few minutes.
Also for years now Goku has been getting humilated by Beerus. The entire series up until this point he was under him. The rivalry between these two has been far better established than that between Goku and Jiren. I think it's very satisfying to see Goku finally break through this wall and finally surpass Beerus after all this time.
Dragon Ball is all about breaking through previous limits, reaching greater heights and discovering higher levels of power. Finding new, stronger opponents. Goku's surpassed Beerus, now he has to work further towards surpassing this new opponent Jiren. I don't think the fact that there's a new limit Goku has to break takes away from this current milestone of his.
As for this taking away from Vegeta's speech, it really doesn't to me. Goku still broke his limits and mastered Ultra Instinct like Vegeta said he would. Goku is going to be one of the main contributors to Jiren's defeat, even if he didn't directly knock him out. Jiren lost primarily because Goku broke his limits. Vegeta was completely accurate and proved Belmod to be wrong.
Plus Frieza winning the tournament is kind of a win for Goku as well. Frieza wouldn't even be in the tournament if it wasn't for Goku. It was Goku's idea to bring him to the tournament. An idea that everyone thought was utterly insane. Literally nobody had faith in Goku in this regard. They second guessed and doubted Goku's decision a million times. I like that in the end Goku was vindicated and it was his crazy idea that won the tournament.
Additionally one of the major themes for the Tournament of Power is that power isn't the be all end all. I think U7 winning through superior strategy fits into this theme far more than them winning cause of an asspull power boost.
Lastly I get why so many people wanted Goku to win since he's been taking L's left and right throughout Super and was the total underdog against Jiren. However we all know Goku is really strong, can break his limits and asspull new strength. What we rarely get to see him do is come out on top with his brains instead of his muscles. Everyone knows Goku's no genius at all, especially in Super. Goku winning with wits is a FAR greater underdog story than him winning with power. And that's what we saw him do. Goku got Universe 7 the win because he came up with the crazy yet ultimately smart idea of bringing Frieza along.
TLDR: This ending makes perfect sense, satisfies the theme of power not being everything in this tournament, concluded the age long rivalry between Goku and Beerus, established a new exciting challenge for Goku to overcome which is the whole point of DB, completely proved Vegeta's epic speech right and was the ultra underdog story. I liked it.
Look how many forms Goku got throughout the series without coming close to reaching Beerus. It makes sense for 2 (though technically 1 form with a previous incomplete version of it) to not be enough to reach Jiren.
I personally think it's better writing for Goku to still be below Jiren than for him to asspull this insane power that vastly dwarfs how powerful he's gotten over the course of entire arcs within just a few minutes.
Also for years now Goku has been getting humilated by Beerus. The entire series up until this point he was under him. The rivalry between these two has been far better established than that between Goku and Jiren. I think it's very satisfying to see Goku finally break through this wall and finally surpass Beerus after all this time.
Dragon Ball is all about breaking through previous limits, reaching greater heights and discovering higher levels of power. Finding new, stronger opponents. Goku's surpassed Beerus, now he has to work further towards surpassing this new opponent Jiren. I don't think the fact that there's a new limit Goku has to break takes away from this current milestone of his.
As for this taking away from Vegeta's speech, it really doesn't to me. Goku still broke his limits and mastered Ultra Instinct like Vegeta said he would. Goku is going to be one of the main contributors to Jiren's defeat, even if he didn't directly knock him out. Jiren lost primarily because Goku broke his limits. Vegeta was completely accurate and proved Belmod to be wrong.
Plus Frieza winning the tournament is kind of a win for Goku as well. Frieza wouldn't even be in the tournament if it wasn't for Goku. It was Goku's idea to bring him to the tournament. An idea that everyone thought was utterly insane. Literally nobody had faith in Goku in this regard. They second guessed and doubted Goku's decision a million times. I like that in the end Goku was vindicated and it was his crazy idea that won the tournament.
Additionally one of the major themes for the Tournament of Power is that power isn't the be all end all. I think U7 winning through superior strategy fits into this theme far more than them winning cause of an asspull power boost.
Lastly I get why so many people wanted Goku to win since he's been taking L's left and right throughout Super and was the total underdog against Jiren. However we all know Goku is really strong, can break his limits and asspull new strength. What we rarely get to see him do is come out on top with his brains instead of his muscles. Everyone knows Goku's no genius at all, especially in Super. Goku winning with wits is a FAR greater underdog story than him winning with power. And that's what we saw him do. Goku got Universe 7 the win because he came up with the crazy yet ultimately smart idea of bringing Frieza along.
TLDR: This ending makes perfect sense, satisfies the theme of power not being everything in this tournament, concluded the age long rivalry between Goku and Beerus, established a new exciting challenge for Goku to overcome which is the whole point of DB, completely proved Vegeta's epic speech right and was the ultra underdog story. I liked it.
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I would be okay if UI Goku totally owned Jiren and beat him to pulp, just like Vegito did to Zamasu. Then I'm guessing Goku's power will run out and Jiren will knock him out, again just like Vegito vs Zamasu.
Then either Freeza will knock out a drained and injured Jiren, or he will asspull something like Future Trunks lol
Then either Freeza will knock out a drained and injured Jiren, or he will asspull something like Future Trunks lol
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Agreed Ryukama. I don't mind goku still being below jiren, do to the fact that his goal in Super was to surpass beerus, which he will mostlikely achieve. Tho I would have been better if super continued, that way we would know that goku will strive to get even stronger and surpass a new benchmark (jiren) or he will strive for higher (perhaps reaching angel level). I really do hope db returns again, even if it takes a couple of years
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@Ryukuma
I get your overall point, but to me, it just means that they never should have made Jiren this powerful. I think Goku should have beaten Jiren, who should have never been written to be stronger than a GoD (or just Beerus).
Jiren has basically zero explanation as to why he's as strong as he is.
Also if they wanted to go with the "winning by strategy route" then they just should have had the time run out and U7 win by numbers. It would have been way more satisfying seeing how Jiren took his sweet time messing around.
I get your overall point, but to me, it just means that they never should have made Jiren this powerful. I think Goku should have beaten Jiren, who should have never been written to be stronger than a GoD (or just Beerus).
Jiren has basically zero explanation as to why he's as strong as he is.
Also if they wanted to go with the "winning by strategy route" then they just should have had the time run out and U7 win by numbers. It would have been way more satisfying seeing how Jiren took his sweet time messing around.
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