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Dragon Ball MWI undoing continuation thread

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Also,
TheGodOfICE777 said:
So, the afterlife literally fits the bill for being synonymous for statements of universal size via our universe standards
Click to expand...
As per the page for Universe, "If they are outright called universes or stated to be the size of universes by a reliable source, they should be considered universes."
General terms like 世界 are denied when arguing for universal size for a reason; without proper context, the word "world" is far from outright.

Likewise, the word "cosmos" can refer to:
  1. "the universe or its nature or order"
  2. an orderly harmonious systematic universe / a complex orderly self-inclusive system
  3. the universe considered as a system with an order and pattern
  4. everything that exists anywhere
  5. the world or universe regarded as an orderly, harmonious system / a complete, orderly, harmonious system / order; harmony
  6. the universe / the universe considered as a harmonious and orderly system / harmony; order / any complete and orderly system
  7. the universe especially when it is understood as an ordered system
  8. the universe especially when it is understood as an ordered system
  9. the universe, especially when it is thought of as an ordered system
  10. A complex and orderly system, such as our universe; the opposite of chaos / A complex, well-ordered, and unified system
  11. the entire physical universe considered as a unified whole
Notice how quick these definitions are to distinguish themselves from merely describing the universe itself and, rather, the universe as it considered a "harmonious and orderly system"? Almost as if the word finds its origins in a stable, collective sense of order. Wow strange would that be?
Kinda like how the gods of Other World govern the laws of life and death, controlling systems that uniformly balance out the lower realms.
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
Now this is reasoning I can get behind. Yes, if there is stated to be a void that separated the worlds and has no space or time then they can't share the same time dimension as the are separated by something that doesn't have the means to connect them spatially or temporally. So they could potentially be there own space-times

Now, I may have missed it due to my busy schedule and dealing with the pain of my 3 teeth removal but can someone post the scans that directly states the is void separating the dimension/worlds in the Macrocosm and lacks time and space conceptually as stated. I don't follow the DB Cosmology so I don't know where to find the scans myself.
Click to expand...
Here, translation taken from the author himself @Executor_N0



Translation link

vsbattles.com

Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)

Would like these translated please: Why are there penises in those pics?
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com


Some points you should note in the afterlife

And here, where it is said to be the size of the Universe

With the mention of being the size of the Universe and being declared as a "cosmos" I believe it is enough for us to keep cosmology being 2-C
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
LordGriffin1000 said:
Now this is reasoning I can get behind. Yes, if there is stated to be a void that separated the worlds and has no space or time then they can't share the same time dimension as the are separated by something that doesn't have the means to connect them spatially or temporally. So they could potentially be there own space-times

Now, I may have missed it due to my busy schedule and dealing with the pain of my 3 teeth removal but can someone post the scans that directly states the is void separating the dimension/worlds in the Macrocosm and lacks time and space conceptually as stated. I don't follow the DB Cosmology so I don't know where to find the scans myself.
Click to expand...
Sure, no problem here. Existence of the subspace is also mentioned here in Kakarot, which we accept the encyclopedias as having canon content unless they’re contradictory.
Nullflowerblush said:
Why would it be the "heavenly variant of the Universe" when the Universe isn't even called "the cosmos"?
Click to expand...
The Universe is a translation of the Japanese. The afterlife is directly called “The Cosmos” in English. The original English term of “The Cosmos” exists in the original Japanese guidebook. Heavenly Realm is just another name given. Which doesn’t contradict the statement of “The Cosmos.”

Nullflowerblush said:
Also,

As per the page for Universe, "If they are outright called universes or stated to be the size of universes by a reliable source, they should be considered universes."
General terms like 世界 are denied when arguing for universal size for a reason; without proper context, the word "world" is far from outright.

Likewise, the word "cosmos" can refer to:
  1. "the universe or its nature or order"
  2. an orderly harmonious systematic universe / a complex orderly self-inclusive system
  3. the universe considered as a system with an order and pattern
  4. everything that exists anywhere
  5. the world or universe regarded as an orderly, harmonious system / a complete, orderly, harmonious system / order; harmony
  6. the universe / the universe considered as a harmonious and orderly system / harmony; order / any complete and orderly system
  7. the universe especially when it is understood as an ordered system
  8. the universe especially when it is understood as an ordered system
  9. the universe, especially when it is thought of as an ordered system
  10. A complex and orderly system, such as our universe; the opposite of chaos / A complex, well-ordered, and unified system
  11. the entire physical universe considered as a unified whole
Notice how quick these definitions are to distinguish themselves from merely describing the universe itself and, rather, the universe as it considered a "harmonious and orderly system"? Almost as if the word finds its origins in a stable, collective sense of order. Wow strange would that be?
Kinda like how the gods of Other World govern the laws of life and death, controlling systems that uniformly balance out the lower realms.
Click to expand...
My dude, why the HELL are you mentioning the Japanese again? It’s literally in ******* English the words of “The Cosmos” is in English because the daizenshuu has some English words in it. It’s called both “The Cosmos” and “Heavenly Realm (Translation of the original kanji.” I’m not using the term Heavenly Realm to say its of universal size I’m using the term “The Cosmos” to.

Also, funny how you left out the part of the universe standards that agree with I’m arguing against.

  • If they are outright called universes or stated to be the size of universes by a reliable source, they should be considered universes.
  • If the size of the realms described has having infinite sizes or other synonyms, that should strongly indicate them being universes.
 
In fact, this crt that was accepted explains your question well Null, I don't even need to repeat it, right?
vsbattles.com

Reintroducting HTC to the macrocosm. (DBS)

From this translation about chozenshu 4 which is the guide that has dragon ball super, I have decided that the evidence is adequate enough to re-add HTC to the macrocosm. I actually had that translated before, so it's a bit quick どの世界にも属さない 〈亜空間〉 That which doesn't belong to the world...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
Here, translation taken from the author himself @Executor_N0



Translation link

vsbattles.com

Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)

Would like these translated please: Why are there penises in those pics?
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com


Some points you should note in the afterlife

And here, where it is said to be the size of the Universe
Click to expand...

Just want to point out, Executor explains in the link here that Luffy has sent. The subspaces don’t belong to the worlds depicted in [Fig. 1], but that they exist detached and between them.
 
TheGodOfICE777 said:
Just want to point out, Executor explains in the link here that Luffy has sent. The subspaces don’t belong to the worlds depicted in [Fig. 1], but that they exist detached and between them.
Click to expand...
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
In fact, this crt that was accepted explains your question well Null, I don't even need to repeat it, right?
vsbattles.com

Reintroducting HTC to the macrocosm. (DBS)

From this translation about chozenshu 4 which is the guide that has dragon ball super, I have decided that the evidence is adequate enough to re-add HTC to the macrocosm. I actually had that translated before, so it's a bit quick どの世界にも属さない 〈亜空間〉 That which doesn't belong to the world...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Click to expand...
That was accepted here, so everything is fine.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
I don't think "cosmos" is a synonym for infinite.
Click to expand...
Really dude? Your best arguments are nitpicking what I’m saying? It says or other synonyms that strongly indicate that it’s a universe. Synonyms are just phrases or words that are similar to each other. If you actually use context you would see I’m saying other things that are synonyms for Universe. Such as, believe it or not “The Cosmos.”
 
TheGodOfICE777 said:
It says or other synonyms that strongly indicate that it’s a universe.
Click to expand...
It says:
  • If they are outright called universes or stated to be the size of universes by a reliable source, they should be considered universes.
  • If the size of the realms described has having infinite sizes or other synonyms, that should strongly indicate them being universes.
Click to expand...
You are pulling from two separate criteria and attempting to apply their logic to one another. Again, other synonyms like "world", "nature", and "outer space" are rarely accepted because a word merely being synonymous with the word "universe" is not enough proof.

EDIT: You're not even doing that. You're just ignoring the ENTIRE main body of the second sentence.
It isn't "synonyms that strongly indicate that it's a universe, it's "If the size is described using words synonymous with infinite, that indicates that it's a universe".
And I'm doing the cherrypicking.

Also, you completely ignored this.
Nullflowerblush said:
Likewise, the word "cosmos" can refer to:
  1. "the universe or its nature or order"
  2. an orderly harmonious systematic universe / a complex orderly self-inclusive system
  3. the universe considered as a system with an order and pattern
  4. everything that exists anywhere
  5. the world or universe regarded as an orderly, harmonious system / a complete, orderly, harmonious system / order; harmony
  6. the universe / the universe considered as a harmonious and orderly system / harmony; order / any complete and orderly system
  7. the universe especially when it is understood as an ordered system
  8. the universe especially when it is understood as an ordered system
  9. the universe, especially when it is thought of as an ordered system
  10. A complex and orderly system, such as our universe; the opposite of chaos / A complex, well-ordered, and unified system
  11. the entire physical universe considered as a unified whole
Notice how quick these definitions are to distinguish themselves from merely describing the universe itself and, rather, the universe as it considered a "harmonious and orderly system"? Almost as if the word finds its origins in a stable, collective sense of order. Wow strange would that be?
Kinda like how the gods of Other World govern the laws of life and death, controlling systems that uniformly balance out the lower realms.
Click to expand...
 
Nullflowerblush said:
It says:

You are pulling from two separate criteria and attempting to apply their logic to one another. Again, other synonyms like "world", "nature", and "outer space" are rarely accepted because a word merely being synonymous with the word "universe" is not enough proof.

EDIT: You're not even doing that. You're just ignoring the ENTIRE main body of the second sentence.
It isn't "synonyms that strongly indicate that it's a universe, it's "If the size is described using words synonymous with infinite, that indicates that it's a universe".
And I'm doing the cherrypicking.

Also, you completely ignored this.
Click to expand...
Why bro can’t accept the fact cosmos also mean universe?
 
probably because the other world is never legitimately described as a "cosmos" in the daizenshuu and "the cosmos" only exists as a name in the map
 
"The cosmos" doesn't have to mean universe and the kanji above it doesn't mean universe either.

Is there any more evidence about the size of the otherworld that doesn't rely on semantics?
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
Universe remains 2-C through guide evidence and additional evidence

Agree: @DarkDragonMedeus


Disagree:

Neutral: @LordGriffin1000, @Maverick_Zero_X

This is the result so far about cosmology remaining 2-C
Click to expand...
I'm afraid of how we're gonna contextualize it on the verse page now that the timeline stuff got rejected, since a lot of us here agree and disagree on certain things like the afterlife and such
 
Hasty12345 said:
"The cosmos" doesn't have to mean universe and the kanji above it doesn't mean universe either.

Is there any more evidence about the size of the otherworld that doesn't rely on semantics?
Click to expand...
TheGodOfICE777 said:
Sure, no problem here. Existence of the subspace is also mentioned here in Kakarot, which we accept the encyclopedias as having canon content unless they’re contradictory.

The Universe is a translation of the Japanese. The afterlife is directly called “The Cosmos” in English. The original English term of “The Cosmos” exists in the original Japanese guidebook. Heavenly Realm is just another name given. Which doesn’t contradict the statement of “The Cosmos.”


My dude, why the HELL are you mentioning the Japanese again? It’s literally in ******* English the words of “The Cosmos” is in English because the daizenshuu has some English words in it. It’s called both “The Cosmos” and “Heavenly Realm (Translation of the original kanji.” I’m not using the term Heavenly Realm to say its of universal size I’m using the term “The Cosmos” to.

Also, funny how you left out the part of the universe standards that agree with I’m arguing against.

  • If they are outright called universes or stated to be the size of universes by a reliable source, they should be considered universes.
  • If the size of the realms described has having infinite sizes or other synonyms, that should strongly indicate them being universes.
Click to expand...
 
I like the subspace argument for spatiotemporal separation, however, I'm not convinced the otherworld is universal in size.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
It says:

You are pulling from two separate criteria and attempting to apply their logic to one another. Again, other synonyms like "world", "nature", and "outer space" are rarely accepted because a word merely being synonymous with the word "universe" is not enough proof.

EDIT: You're not even doing that. You're just ignoring the ENTIRE main body of the second sentence.
It isn't "synonyms that strongly indicate that it's a universe, it's "If the size is described using words synonymous with infinite, that indicates that it's a universe".
And I'm doing the cherrypicking.

Also, you completely ignored this.
Click to expand...
I’m aware, what it says its telling us that infinite size can indicate that it qualifies for a Universe. You don’t need infinite size to be considered a Universe, but it’s telling us it’s an indicator and that there can be other synonyms that indicate it’s a Universe. I’m not twisting the criteria or cherry-picking at all. It’s telling us about strong indicators for a Universe. World and Nature are not strong indicators that refer to a Universe.

Most of the synonyms in there literally mention the Universe within it. My argument isn’t that it’s just referred to as a Cosmos. I’m saying that’s one of the actual names given to it. It’s what the afterlife itself is called. The Cosmos most of the times refers to a Universe. Sometimes, when people say Universe itself it doesn’t refer to the 93 billion light years of creation.
Nullflowerblush said:
probably because the other world is never legitimately described as a "cosmos" in the daizenshuu and "the cosmos" only exists as a name in the map
Click to expand...
That’s the point it’s one of its names instead of being called a Cosmos. Like you tried to use world or dimension as an example those aren’t names, but descriptions.
Hasty12345 said:
"The cosmos" doesn't have to mean universe and the kanji above it doesn't mean universe either.

Is there any more evidence about the size of the otherworld that doesn't rely on semantics?
Click to expand...
The kanji above it means Heavenly Realm, but the words below it are originally in English.
 
I get that the guidebook's usage of the model isn't accepted as to scale because of Snake Way but what about the DBS Manga's in-universe depiction of Universe 10 where the Afterlife and Living Universe are depicted as equal sized halves?

Albeit there is a squiggly line there that resembles Snake Way so that's a bit debatable as well.
56IpDnp.png
 
TheGodOfICE777 said:
I’m aware, what it says its telling us that infinite size can indicate that it qualifies for a Universe. You don’t need infinite size to be considered a Universe, but it’s telling us it’s an indicator and that there can be other synonyms that indicate it’s a Universe. I’m not twisting the criteria or cherry-picking at all. It’s telling us about strong indicators for a Universe. World and Nature are not strong indicators that refer to a Universe.

Most of the synonyms in there literally mention the Universe within it. My argument isn’t that it’s just referred to as a Cosmos. I’m saying that’s one of the actual names given to it. It’s what the afterlife itself is called. The Cosmos most of the times refers to a Universe. Sometimes, when people say Universe itself it doesn’t refer to the 93 billion light years of creation.
Click to expand...
And in this sense it clearly isn't using it as universe in meaning given how it uses "universes" as a separate thing from it in the same guide

TheGodOfICE777 said:
That’s the point it’s one of its names instead of being called a Cosmos. Like you tried to use world or dimension as an example those aren’t names, but descriptions.
Click to expand...
Which is why it is flumsy given the other part calling the living world as "the universe" making it clear that the title is not using the universe meaning but the order of the universe as Nulls pointed out its different meanings
 
CryoTheMayo said:
I get that the guidebook's usage of the model isn't accepted as to scale because of Snake Way but what about the DBS Manga's in-universe depiction of Universe 10 where the Afterlife and Living Universe are depicted as equal sized halves?

Albeit there is a squiggly line there that resembles Snake Way so that's a bit debatable as well.
56IpDnp.png
Click to expand...
It is the same model, it has the same problems
 
omegabronic said:
It is the same model, it has the same problems
Click to expand...
Well, to be frank I think the argument that the model can't be used is incorrect given the DBS Manga actually uses it to depict the entire macrocosm. Along with that the Living Universe and Afterlife are explicitly depicted as two halves of one globe.

So when you come up with arguments like 'it isn't to scale' it's just very weak to me. Compare Snake Way in the upper portion of the globe to the bottom portion. Is the entire universe barely longer than Snake Way? Of course not. However the intention of Toriyama in his model is very obvious. The Afterlife and Living Universe are two halves.

So let's all be honest here. When Toriyama designed that model. What was going through his head when he chose to make the Afterlife and Living Universe two halves of the world? Did he really depict the Afterlife half as the size as the Living Universe half arbitrarily? I doubt that.

Why is Snake Way disproportionate? To illustrate it to readers so they can see it. Why did he make the Afterlife equal in size to the Living Universe? To illustrate they are equal-sized realms. The blatant intention of the author is more important than these mild inconsistencies that only really exist for the sake of the reader's comprehension.

That's my take on the topic. I won't bloat this any further because you're already debating a bunch of people. Just felt like saying my piece.
 
To be fair, we don’t actually know how large Snake Way is. All we know is what the LEGENDS say. Perhaps it’s vastly larger than we ever truly realized…
 
omegabronic said:
Medeus reasoning for agreeing with afterlife being a universe is not based on that given his response here tho


Nah, inconclussive so far, also griffin didn't vote
Click to expand...
You can be banned for manipulating votes, just put DDM in agreement, since the previous topic and this one he agreed with Universe being 2-C
 
omegabronic said:
Medeus reasoning for agreeing with afterlife being a universe is not based on that given his response here tho


Nah, inconclussive so far, also griffin didn't vote
Click to expand...
DDM pretty clearly recognizes the cosmos part (and separation) in his response to me even if I disagree with it due to that we shouldnt use our real universe as a metric for something drastically different to our own. Just list DDMs vote as agree with 2-C.
 
So it is my understanding that the only piece of evidence that speaks to the size of the otherworld in the main canon is that cosmos statement?

But what about the size of the kaioshin world?

And which one is 1/10th the universe?
 
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