Dragon Ball MWI undoing continuation thread

[RedReaper616]

So it is my understanding that the only piece of evidence that speaks to the size of the otherworld in the main canon is that cosmos statement?

But what about the size of the kaioshin world?

And which one is 1/10th the universe?

The Kaioshin World is 1/10th the whole Macrocosm. Which means it’s 1/10th the size of the Afterlife, Living Universe, Demon Realm, Hell, Heaven, etc. combined.

 

[Hasty12345]

The Kaioshin World is 1/10th the whole Macrocosm. Which means it’s 1/10th the size of the Afterlife, Living Universe, Demon Realm, Hell, Heaven, etc. combined.

So it's not likely to be universal in size given the only universal-sized realm appears to be the living world going by the evidence presented.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

The Kaioshin World is 1/10th the whole Macrocosm. Which means it’s 1/10th the size of the Afterlife, Living Universe, Demon Realm, Hell, Heaven, etc. combined.

Only thing universal in size here is the living universe and debatably afterlife.

Heaven being universal in size is toei only.

Demon realm has no basis to be universal in size and is noted to be rather small

Hell is just a part of afterlife and has no basis for it being universal in size.

 

[Hasty12345]

So it's not likely to be universal in size given the only universal-sized realm appears to be the living world going by the evidence presented.

Given the current evidence, I think U7 is comprised of 3 notable spacetimes, with only 1 of them being universal in size. As such, destroying it should be considered low 2-C.

If Ultima's thread that changes the size requirements for separate spacetimes to not need to be universal in size, U7 is an easy 2-C.

 

[RedReaper616]

I like how, again, this all ignores that Toei’s cosmology as written in the Afterlife-Buu Sagas come from Toriyama himself as canon information they put to screen, and assumes that there is no nuance in canoncity for Toei, which was directly proven to not be the case by Executor.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

And Hell is definitely universe sized.

This is quite an extraordinary claim by the way so may I have the basis behind this claim or any evidence corroborating it? Only statement like this comes from a non canon tabletop RPG book.

 

[Hasty12345]

I like how, again, this all ignores that Toei’s cosmology as written in the Afterlife-Buu Sagas come from Toriyama himself as canon information they put to screen, and assumes that there is no nuance in canoncity for Toei, which was directly proven to not be the case by Executor.

Toei hyperinflates the statistics of all their products and shouldn't be used in any capacity to inform canon material regardless of stated author involvement

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Only thing universal in size here is the living universe and debatably afterlife.

Heaven being universal in size is toei only.

In fact it's not just Toei, as in canon guides that it's still accepted with canon, and we even have an administrator agreeing that it should be used for 2-C, of course, this through various evidence that confirm this

Demon realm has no basis to be universal in size and is noted to be rather small

Hell is just a part of afterlife and has no basis for it being universal in size.

Hell is your own spacetime

A realm that exists at the lowest layer of the Other World. It is here that evil souls are sent when they die. The realm is separated from Heaven by a thick layer of clouds through which escape is impossible.

The realm that houses Heaven. Hell, and King Kai's Planet. Along with the dead, the gods that oversee the universe reside here. Above Hell are thick clouds and Snake Way. You can travel from Heaven to Hell, but the reverse is not possible.

The Otherworld to which the souls of evil beings are sent after they die. It is separated from the rest of the afterlife by mysterious clouds that can be crossed if you come from above, but are impenetrable from below. For this reason, the damned cannot escape hell, no matter how hard they try.

 

[RedReaper616]

Toei hyperinflates the statistics of all their products and shouldn't be used in any capacity to inform canon material regardless of stated author involvement

I mean, they hyperinflate feats, for sure, but I can’t think of an instance where they objectively inflated a size through a given statement—Because, like mentioned before, the Afterlife-Buu Sagas were made with Tori’s Cosmology, which includes the Heaven statement.

You’d have to point at a size given prior or after within Toei.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Hell is your own spacetime

No it is not. It is literally just its own area in the afterlife separated by magical clouds and not an entirely different dimension.

 

[Hasty12345]

In fact it's not just Toei, as in canon guides that it's still accepted with canon, and we even have an administrator agreeing that it should be used for 2-C, of course, this through various evidence that confirm this

Hell is your own spacetime

Not only does none of this evidence point to Hell being its own spacetime, none of it states nor implies Hell is universal in size.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

This is quite an extraordinary claim by the way so may I have the basis behind this claim or any evidence corroborating it? Only statement like this comes from a non canon tabletop RPG book.

In fact, hell has to be big enough to fit people from all Universes, with past, future, and present, there are people who have already died from the past there, and even more are sent every second of the entire Universe, not just Earth.

On the Dragon Ball super manga map we saw hell the same size as the Universe and the afterlife

 

[Hasty12345]

On the Dragon Ball super manga map we saw hell the same size as the Universe and the afterlife

DB maps depict 10000000km passages as the size of the universe

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

No it is not. It is literally just its own area in the afterlife separated by magical clouds and not an entirely different dimension.

In fact, yes, it is very explicit that hell has its own space-time, as having portals to go through, Goku is pulled by a hand to hell that opens a kind of portal with hands in it kai

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

In fact, hell has to be big enough to fit people from all Universes, with past, future, and present, there are people who have already died from the past there, and even more are sent every second of the entire Universe, not just Earth.

On the Dragon Ball super manga map we saw hell the same size as the Universe and the afterlife

This argument only works if you try to argue infinite sized afterlife. Also in Super there are only around 20~ planets with life and you're extremely overestimating how much space you can contain a lot of people in. Surely doesn't need to be universal.

 

[Hasty12345]

In fact, yes, it is very explicit that hell has its own space-time, as having portals to go through, Goku is pulled by a hand to hell that opens a kind of portal with hands in it kai

Because portals always mean different spacetimes

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

In fact, yes, it is very explicit that hell has its own space-time, as having portals to go through, Goku is pulled by a hand to hell that opens a kind of portal with hands in it kai

That isn't a portal that's just the clouds opening up and revealing hell...

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

DB maps depict 10000000km passages as the size of the universe

Not really, the map is only far away from what causes the snake's path to become larger, apart from the fact that its size is confirmed, there is no contradiction.

 

[Hasty12345]

Not really, the map is only far away from what causes the snake's path to become larger, apart from the fact that its size is confirmed, there is no contradiction.

"apart from the most glaring contradiction to my argument, my argument is sound."

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

That isn't a portal that's just the clouds opening up and revealing hell...

It's a portal, you can very well see that it resembles a portal sending Goku straight to hell

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

This argument only works if you try to argue infinite sized afterlife. Also in Super there are only around 20~ planets with life and you're extremely overestimating how much space you can contain a lot of people in. Surely doesn't need to be universal.

In fact, it is 26 planets with intelligent lives that contain strong power, lol

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

It's a portal, you can very well see that it resembles a portal sending Goku straight to hell

Honestly just headcanon but whatever seems like arguing about this wont lead anywhere.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Honestly just headcanon but whatever seems like arguing about this wont lead anywhere.

Ok

 

[RedReaper616]

This argument only works if you try to argue infinite sized afterlife. Also in Super there are only around 20~ planets with life and you're extremely overestimating how much space you can contain a lot of people in. Surely doesn't need to be universal.

Okay to be fair the reason why that’s the case is because Frieza, Buu, Moro, etc. were fiending and killing tons of innocent people, across millions of years. Beerus too whenever he woke up from a nap. On top of that, our Kaioshin (planet and life creators), were reduced to a singular one, the remaining being totally inexperienced, until Elder Kai came back around from the Z-Sword (very recent development) meaning no life was replacing those deaths. It’s not very fair to use that number as evidence of limited lives (and thus space in the Afterlife) when a lot of factors went into it.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Okay to be fair the reason why that’s the case is because Frieza, Buu, Moro, etc. were fiending and killing tons of innocent people, across millions of years. Beerus too whenever he woke up from a nap. On top of that, our Kaioshin (planet and life creators), were reduced to a singular one, the remaining being totally inexperienced, until Elder Kai came back around from the Z-Sword (very recent development) meaning no life was replacing those deaths. It’s not very fair to use that number as evidence of limited lives (and thus space in the Afterlife) when a lot of factors went into it.

Yea but none of this justifies being universal. It's either unknown in size or it has to be infinite in size for being able to hypothetically hold an arbitrary number of people at any given time.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Okay to be fair the reason why that’s the case is because Frieza, Buu, Moro, etc. were fiending and killing tons of innocent people, across millions of years. Beerus too whenever he woke up from a nap. On top of that, our Kaioshin (planet and life creators), were reduced to a singular one, the remaining being totally inexperienced, until Elder Kai came back around from the Z-Sword (very recent development) meaning no life was replacing those deaths. It’s not very fair to use that number as evidence of limited lives (and thus space in the Afterlife) when a lot of factors went into it.

In fact, this is about strong people who have reasoning to fight in the tournament, but we don't have an exact number of planets, we are told there are countless planets, on the official website, in the manga, and also by Zamasu who stated that there are millions of planets with gods on them.

 

[RedReaper616]

Yea but none of this justifies being universal. It's either unknown in size or it has to be infinite in size for being able to hypothetically hold an arbitrary number of people at any given time.

I didn’t say it did? I’m saying talking about the numbered planets in DBS doesn’t disqualify the fact that the realm must be suitably large to handle the influx of Souls across the cosmos across past and present. It’s not a valid counterpoint, because we used to have substantial amounts of life before the life kicked U7 in the ass.

Whatever size you believe that to mean is irrelevant to the point.

 

[Hasty12345]

In fact, this is about strong people who have reasoning to fight in the tournament, but we don't have an exact number of planets, we are told there are countless planets, on the official website, in the manga, and also by Zamasu who stated that there are millions of planets with gods on them.

In fact, there is no way to determine size based on an unknown amount of people.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Kingdoms as having the size of the Universe accepted in this crt (situation of accepted kingdoms)

Heaven that has quotes to be comparable to the size of Universe and with multiple statements

Agree: @DarkDragonMedeus, @LordGriffin1000

Disagree:

This is the current situation of the kingdoms

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I didn’t say it did? I’m saying talking about the numbered planets in DBS doesn’t disqualify the fact that the realm must be suitably large to handle the influx of Souls across the cosmos across past and present. It’s not a valid counterpoint, because we used to have substantial amounts of life before the life kicked U7 in the ass.

Whatever size you believe that to mean is irrelevant to the point.

Size is the whole point of this so I was assuming you were talking about that. Suitably large yes but either to an infinite degree or an unknown degree since choosing a size like lets say universal or even galaxy in size is completely arbitrary. Too many unknowns to assume a specific size that isn't infinite. That's my stance so I'll just say it here even if that wasn't necessarily your concern.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Now this is reasoning I can get behind. Yes, if there is stated to be a void that separated the worlds and has no space or time then they can't share the same time dimension as the are separated by something that doesn't have the means to connect them spatially or temporally. So they could potentially be there own space-times

Now, I may have missed it due to my busy schedule and dealing with the pain of my 3 teeth removal but can someone post the scans that directly states the is void separating the dimension/worlds in the Macrocosm and lacks time and space conceptually as stated. I don't follow the DB Cosmology so I don't know where to find the scans myself.

So, I wanted to know about your opinion about Universe 7 continuing to be 2-C through various evidences in mentioned guides, which contain canon material.

 

[Omegabronic]

Well, to be frank I think the argument that the model can't be used is incorrect given the DBS Manga actually uses it to depict the entire macrocosm. Along with that the Living Universe and Afterlife are explicitly depicted as two halves of one globe.

So when you come up with arguments like 'it isn't to scale' it's just very weak to me. Compare Snake Way in the upper portion of the globe to the bottom portion. Is the entire universe barely longer than Snake Way? Of course not. However the intention of Toriyama in his model is very obvious. The Afterlife and Living Universe are two halves.

So let's all be honest here. When Toriyama designed that model. What was going through his head when he chose to make the Afterlife and Living Universe two halves of the world? Did he really depict the Afterlife half as the size as the Living Universe half arbitrarily? I doubt that.

Why is Snake Way disproportionate? To illustrate it to readers so they can see it. Why did he make the Afterlife equal in size to the Living Universe? To illustrate they are equal-sized realms. The blatant intention of the author is more important than these mild inconsistencies that only really exist for the sake of the reader's comprehension.

That's my take on the topic. I won't bloat this any further because you're already debating a bunch of people. Just felt like saying my piece.

that's fair thinking, however then we have the DBS anime not even using it at all, so going by "what model is used" then we would have a problem anyway since both are used, unless we consider the anime and manga of DBS as having different universe cosmologies, but we can all agree that talk is better left for later, the intention can be that(i don't think that is the intention btw) but it would be contradictory to what it actually shows, so we would need to ignore it to not make contradictions to the lore

i also am just saying my piece, that talk can be left for later

He literally agreed with 2-C macrocosm what are u talking about

yeah........which is listed in the vote section

DDM pretty clearly recognizes the cosmos part (and separation) in his response to me

that is not clear to me at all, looking at his responses he never talks abouts or mentions the cosmos scan at all

even if I disagree with it due to that we shouldnt use our real universe as a metric for something drastically different to our own. Just list DDMs vote as agree with 2-C.

i did list him as such, i put him in neutral because that voting poll is for the cosmos scan specifically, now if he clarifies his stance better i would be full ok in creating another voting poll, someone would need to summarize the argument for me to do so tho

 

[Omegabronic]

The Kaioshin World is 1/10th the whole Macrocosm. Which means it’s 1/10th the size of the Afterlife, Living Universe, Demon Realm, Hell, Heaven, etc. combined.

hell and heaven are part of the afterlife tho

h

In fact it's not just Toei, as in canon guides that it's still accepted with canon, and we even have an administrator agreeing that it should be used for 2-C, of course, this through various evidence that confirm this

Hell is your own spacetime

So hell exists physically in the afterlife in the literal lowest physical layer with a literal physical barrier separating it from the rest...........how does that prove that it is a space time again?

In fact, hell has to be big enough to fit people from all Universes, with past, future, and present, there are people who have already died from the past there, and even more are sent every second of the entire Universe, not just Earth.

no it doesn't as it is said people re encarnate in the series, so it's population would be diminished in the same rate as it grows, making this an non issue

On the Dragon Ball super manga map we saw hell the same size as the Universe and the afterlife

you mean the map that makes a 1.000.000 Km line as big as half the universe? what of it? that map is contradictory to what is said in the series, so we can't use it deja vu we had this talk before

In fact, yes, it is very explicit that hell has its own space-time, as having portals to go through, Goku is pulled by a hand to hell that opens a kind of portal with hands in it kai

Toei continuity clip, why would it apply to main cannon again? also this contradicts the statements you showed, all of which clearly states a physical separation and not a dimensional one at all

In fact, it is 26 planets with intelligent lives that contain strong power, lol

Shin specifically says he didn't saw based on power, also we only ever saw inteligent life going to the afterlife, and even then they re incarnate after a while, so whatever space problem you may say is irrelevant as it is solved with re incarnations anyway

Kingdoms as having the size of the Universe accepted in this crt (situation of accepted kingdoms)

not really? this CRT's first voting section is still in play with no conclussive results as of now

Heaven that has quotes to be comparable to the size of Universe and with multiple statements

which was pointed out is only talking about it in the anime version and not the main cannon version

Hell being big enough to fit people from the entire Universe in different time periods accepted here

that is not the reasoning DDM gave for Hell in his vote

Agree: @DarkDragonMedeus

Disagree:

This is the current situation of the kingdoms

1 realm you mean, the afterlife, so it wouldn't be for all realms, please categorize it better, this is becoming too big and cluttered for my linking

So, I wanted to know about your opinion about Universe 7 continuing to be 2-C through various evidences in mentioned guides, which contain canon material.

which also contains anime exclussive material not in the OG manga aka not cannon to the main continuity

Dragon Ball MWI undoing continuation thread

Continuation of this thread Now that the mutiverses have been separated, now we deal with the consequences of it 1 What remains shared Now that the current justification for full shared cosmology is not valid anymore, is there anything that would still be valid for both continuities? 2 Size...

vsbattles.com

also can you please stop trying to make more voting counts as of now? we can discuss this later, let us focus on the topic at hand in the OP else this will become a bigger mess then it already is

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

yeah........which is listed in the vote section



that is not clear to me at all, looking at his responses he never talks abouts or mentions the cosmos scan at all


i did list him as such, i put him in neutral because that voting poll is for the cosmos scan specifically, now if he clarifies his stance better i would be full ok in creating another voting poll, someone would need to summarize the argument for me to do so tho

Omega, stop talking and put the DDM agree with 2-C of cosmology and the afterlife being of Universal size, he has already left his opinion below, stop trying to manipulate the votes.

 

[Omegabronic]

Omega, stop talking

good excuse to not cover counter points

and put the DDM agree with 2-C of cosmology and the afterlife being of Universal size, he has already left his opinion below, stop trying to manipulate the votes.

@DarkDragonMedeus(says that he agrees with it being universe sized, but has not commented on the up above scan)

Luffy, can you read? i already did that

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

good excuse to not cover counter points



Luffy, can you read? i already did that

List him as such and not neutral, he is in neutral, being that he said that the afterlife is bigger than the normal Universe, he saw the scan mentioning "cosmos" and said he agreed and the afterlife being similar to the Universe, just stop trying to manipulate the votes and list him as such, please

And you know?

Here he mentioned that afterlife is bigger than the Universe

Dragon Ball MWI undoing continuation thread

The original text is "裏の姿としての魔界が存在する", or "...the Demon World exists as the underside" [or hidden side/inverse side]. The word being translated as "appearance" is 姿, which largely refers to a state of being, rather than a description of physical appearance. That’s interesting.

vsbattles.com

And here similar to the Universe

Dragon Ball MWI undoing continuation thread

The Otherworld as a whole is still stated to be larger than the living universe. when? what statement from the main cannon puts afterlife as "larger than the living universe"?

vsbattles.com

He just lists that he agrees with the afterlife being Universal size and if not even bigger, don't put it in neutral

 

[Omegabronic]

List him as such and not neutral

as i said, neutral there is in relation of the cosmos scan, as that is all the current voting poll is discussing at the moment

he is in neutral, being that he said that the afterlife is bigger than the normal Universe, he saw the scan mentioning "cosmos" and said he agreed and the afterlife being similar to the Universe, just stop trying to manipulate the votes and list him as such, please

he.....didn't tho, he never comented on the cosmos scan at all

And you know?

Here he mentioned that afterlife is bigger than the Universe

Dragon Ball MWI undoing continuation thread

The original text is "裏の姿としての魔界が存在する", or "...the Demon World exists as the underside" [or hidden side/inverse side]. The word being translated as "appearance" is 姿, which largely refers to a state of being, rather than a description of physical appearance. That’s interesting.

vsbattles.com

And here similar to the Universe

Dragon Ball MWI undoing continuation thread

The Otherworld as a whole is still stated to be larger than the living universe. when? what statement from the main cannon puts afterlife as "larger than the living universe"?

vsbattles.com

So he said that it is bigger only to retract to say that it is of similar size? Huh

He just lists that he agrees with the afterlife being Universal size and if not even bigger, don't put it in neutral

If it is bigger than the universe, then it is in the universal ranges in size

 

[LordGriffin1000]

So, I wanted to know about your opinion about Universe 7 continuing to be 2-C through various evidences in mentioned guides, which contain canon material.

I already know the term "Cosmos" is being used and can also be as a term for universe but not always (Its used in the W.I.T.C.H. verse like that),

Honestly I think it's possible for the Afterlife to be universal in size, sadly the lack of a 100% "this means universe" (at least in accepted canon) and given we don't use the model for scaling purposes would cause issue. The best I'd say is Low 2-C, likely 2-C. However, if y'all are looking for only a definitive answer and no common ground than I'd be leaning on the side of 2-C for now.

Omega, stop talking and put the DDM agree with 2-C of cosmology and the afterlife being of Universal size, he has already left his opinion below, stop trying to manipulate the votes.

good excuse to not cover counter points



Luffy, can you read? i already did that

List him as such and not neutral, he is in neutral, being that he said that the afterlife is bigger than the normal Universe, he saw the scan mentioning "cosmos" and said he agreed and the afterlife being similar to the Universe, just stop trying to manipulate the votes and list him as such, please

And you know?

Here he mentioned that afterlife is bigger than the Universe

Dragon Ball MWI undoing continuation thread

The original text is "裏の姿としての魔界が存在する", or "...the Demon World exists as the underside" [or hidden side/inverse side]. The word being translated as "appearance" is 姿, which largely refers to a state of being, rather than a description of physical appearance. That’s interesting.

vsbattles.com

And here similar to the Universe

Dragon Ball MWI undoing continuation thread

The Otherworld as a whole is still stated to be larger than the living universe. when? what statement from the main cannon puts afterlife as "larger than the living universe"?

vsbattles.com

He just lists that he agrees with the afterlife being Universal size and if not even bigger, don't put it in neutral

Can you two, just stop. Luffy stop with the claims of vote manipulation Omega can't do that considering only 3 staff have even given their input and he cant just put DarkDragonMedus in a spot that he didn't agree on because we would all see it.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I already know the term "Cosmos" is being used and can also be as a term for universe but not always (Its used in the W.I.T.C.H. verse like that),

Honestly I think it's possible for the Afterlife to be universal in size, sadly the lack of a 100% "this means universe" (at least in accepted canon) and given we don't use the model for scaling purposes would cause issue. The best I'd say is Low 2-C, likely 2-C. However, if y'all are looking for only a definitive answer and no common ground than I'd be leaning on the side of 2-C for now.

So, thank you very much for your answer, furthermore, could you give opinion on hell being Universal size or larger DDM showed solid arguments for it being Universal size

Can you two, just stop. Luffy stop with the claims of vote manipulation Omega can't do that considering only 3 staff have even given their input and he cant just put DarkDragonMedus in a spot that he didn't agree on because we would all see it.

OK

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

The visual depictions in Toriyama's illustrations combined with common sense. He clearly draws otherworld to be taller than the living universe though roughly similar length and width. Also, the common knowledge is it would need to be large enough to contain every single ancestor or someone who once lived and died. Meaning the population only ever grows, never lowers. Unlike the living universe that tends to have a population that expands and lowers. And Hell is definitely universe sized.


Uh no, that has been discussed multiple times. And DBS outright contradicts events that happen in the Anime and the filler. Some of the flashback resemble stuff we see in Dragon Ball Z Kai, but both versions of DBS are follow ups to the Manga.

About another world being Universal size, do you still agree with that?