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- #281
Ok so you agree with a "likely 2-C"?
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Dragon Ball MWI undoing continuation thread
- Thread starter Omegabronic
- Start date
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Thank you very much, little brother.
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That's the bottom line, 2 are enough to wrap this up.
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No it's not lol
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chill lmao
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How many more are needed?
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Broski chill, it's not like your life depends on it lol.
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It wouldn't hurt to just have one more staff.
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So could you tag one or two more to help
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Hes already tagged multiple staff, we just have to wait and see if they show up
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The OP is focused on the Afterlife itself and I'd rather keep it that way.
Yes.
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I understand
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If people can't accept the model depicting the realms as equal halves as hard evidence and if the statements aren't sufficient then I think likely 2-C is a fair compromise. But I do think there is legitimate argument for the DBS Manga being outright 2-C if it uses the model in-universe and shows the realms as equal-sized.
Hasty12345
Username Only- 5,349
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We haven't accepted the spinning top diagram as evidence of size for 12 years, but now it's valid to maintain ratings?
If the diagram is to scale and depicts them as valid halves, then the DB universe has a radius of 10 million kilometres due to Snake Way also being to scale.
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I already explained my point earlier so I'm not going to repeat it.
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the snakeway doesn't change the size of the realm its in. even if it is whatever size its stated el manga mentions it and manga talks about its distance but doesn't really go against afterlifes size in all honesty
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Arguing over size of afterlife
Vietthai96
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spoon feed me the tldr for the thread atm, i aint reading 6 pages, ya'll ******* wild
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not best at tldrs but I can just sum it up. Might not encapsulate everything but I'm giving what I can.
For universal sized afterlife:
1. Referred to as "the cosmos"
2. Must be at least universal in size to fit all dead people from past to present
3. Portrayed as equal in size to living universe on the map.
4. Heaven is referred to as universal in size in a guide statement that's explicitly noted to be anime only. (This is signified by the [A])
Counterpoints to above.
1. We cannot use our own universe as a metric for something drastically different than our universe and "the cosmos" is also differentiated from the standard "normal" universe.
2. This is just underestimating how big the universe truly is and if you had to assume a size then it could only be infinite in order to fit an arbitrary amount of people from the past all the way to the distant future. We cannot reasonably assume universal size because of a very large but unknown amount of people dying.
3. We don't accept the macrocosm being to scale.
4. It's clearly differentiated from the main canon by being marked as anime only.
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thanks
Literally doesn't mean anything in regards to scope. Vague, arbitrary, and the word itself doesn't inherently reflect or entail size.
Not inherently true. A square area as wide as the SS could fit every mf who's ever died on Earth just fine, with an expanse of space between.
Now of course, that might not be every planet, but note, in U7, only a few dozens planets with intellgent life actually exist as stated in Super.
A mere 4-B (not even 4-A given the gap between SS is huge), would legit compensate.
I get the argument, but space is HUGE and livings AIN'T even if it's noctillions.
This I get
If it's anime only that sucks, but that would give Toei a pass.
True.
This is true, but I do get it not being to scale doesn't mean it isn't an abstraction.
If that's all, I'm seeing direct evidence for Toei, but insufficient for mainline. But idk if that's all.
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If you mean the Super Shenron scene the manga lacks that and uses the Macrocosm model in-universe, as shown earlier in the thread. There are cosmic spheres that Zeno's realm and Whis use as representative of the universes but it's never stated or shown if those spheres are literally the universes or just abstractions of them. And as I said the macrocosm model is used to depict a universe.
So I overall feel that it's not really contradicted in the manga version. The abstract cosmic spheres and macrocosm model both exist in-universe. Difference being that we see the cosmic spheres used as decoration and illustrative purposes and the macrocosm model used to actually represent shifting perspectives to a completely different universe.
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Toei here isn't the main one in question btw it's Super
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So? The anime doesn't, if we're splitting shit, the anime would need to adhere.
Well aware. And?
Not the case with SS scene.
And the macrocosm model is, in and of itself, an abstraction, never actually used in-universe, but always from an outside PoV.
It is, but so are those.
Feels like cherry picking and double standards tbh. And has absolutely zero effect on the SS scene where, well we see it as it is. Unless we splitting DBS manga and DBS anime cosmology too? In which case the manga might have to fallback on the model because at that point it has nothing.
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Given the entire point of the previous thread was to remove all of the parallel worlds and not include Toei, GT, etc as canon parallel worlds as well as the fact that the DBS Manga doesn't fit as a parallel timeline anywhere in the Anime (as far as I am aware) I don't see how the DBS Manga and DBS Anime could share the same cosmology at this point.
If anything I'd argue it's bizarre to claim they should share cosmologies via that logic. MWI is no longer accepted. The thread used Time Rings as an argument (We can count the number of timelines, the DBS Manga and DBS Anime cannot both exist there). So no I don't think the DBS Manga and DBS Anime can function as existing within the same cosmology. Unless we want to suddenly claim there are time rings that exist that we never see? Or parallel worlds can naturally form without time travel and creating time rings? So no, I don't see why they should share the same cosmology at this point.
And nah. You don't get to say I'm cherrypicking when the entire premise of not making the Afterlife equal to the universe in size is based on disagreeing with the author's interpretation of the world. All because he drew Snake Way for illustrative purposes. Literally just highlighting that to 'debunk' the author illustrating the two realms as equal halves of the model.
The manga uses the model, the author of the franchise made the model, the model depicts it as two equal-sized halves. You want a statement but we have an entire visual representation of how the cosmology looks as a primary source. The only times we see the cosmic sphere depiction in the manga is it using it as an illustration of Whis explaining how universes are pairs (showing similar cosmic patterns and the same colors) and Zeno using the spheres as decoration for his chess pieces (the size of his palm i.e no indication they are are literally the macrocosms).
Either way there's nothing more to say here. Either you take what I say into consideration or you disagree and I will probably never convince you of my take.
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Ya could've just said "DBS anime and DBS manga diff now" man, all I needed to know.
I mean, I can say that? Because it is?
We have Whis' examples, the examples in Zeno's palace, and then the model. You're picking one of three and running with that. You are, in fact, cherry picking the example that would lead to a desired result. I don't disagree inherently btw, bu
Precisely. It's an abstract model vs a hyper knowledgable in uni source in Whis attempting to convey and show them
The manga makes use of it once, but in it's abstracted form, and Akira used it, but still as an abstraction. The issue is less funny snake imo, but more the fact it's a simplified abstraction meant to convey a basic idea. Is it being split meant to represent two whole halves of equal size? Or to simply convey that there's space, and then a higher world for the after life? Like they kinda do the same with the world of the kai's in the same model, and we know that too isn't actually as depicted in model. Personally, I think it was just meant to give a rough idea of how things worked but I can change my stance with the right evidence.
Also when did I say I wanted a statement, I just showed up, if the manga has some sort of visual otherwise, an implication, or even something fucky like Zelda Dark World, I'd be willing to lean toward that
I mean you could with the right evidence, idk why ya jumping at me when this my 3rd post here, especially if we splitting, the anime contradictions don't apply to manga in such a case
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The weird thing imma throw out is why this thread goes off topic a lot. The afterlife size was mentioned that quite literally has nothing to do with MWI which is what this thread was for. IF Db ran off what we classify as the "many worlds interpretation". As far as i am concerned it doesn't name drop Hilbert or MWI like hoyo does so idk why any of this thread matters.
Parallel Worlds are like so Meh to use for MWI. again this is not hoyo.
Some of the Universes are stated to have the same stuff as U7.
Parallel Worlds are like so Meh to use for MWI. again this is not hoyo.
Some of the Universes are stated to have the same stuff as U7.
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the only time we really get a good luck at the bubble was in two scans if not mistaken goku black arc and whis explaining the cosmology a bit. show the clouds exist above the universe in a different realmYa could've just said "DBS anime and DBS manga diff now" man, all I needed to know.
I mean, I can say that? Because it is?
We have Whis' examples, the examples in Zeno's palace, and then the model. You're picking one of three and running with that. You are, in fact, cherry picking the example that would lead to a desired result. I don't disagree inherently btw, bu
Precisely. It's an abstract model vs a hyper knowledgable in uni source in Whis attempting to convey and show themand whatever the **** is up with Zeno's, but given theyre identical with Whis', I feel like theyre at least meant to portray the unis.
The manga makes use of it once, but in it's abstracted form, and Akira used it, but still as an abstraction. The issue is less funny snake imo, but more the fact it's a simplified abstraction meant to convey a basic idea. Is it being split meant to represent two whole halves of equal size? Or to simply convey that there's space, and then a higher world for the after life? Like they kinda do the same with the world of the kai's in the same model, and we know that too isn't actually as depicted in model. Personally, I think it was just meant to give a rough idea of how things worked but I can change my stance with the right evidence.
Also when did I say I wanted a statement, I just showed up, if the manga has some sort of visual otherwise, an implication, or even something fucky like Zelda Dark World, I'd be willing to lean toward that
I mean you could with the right evidence, idk why ya jumping at me when this my 3rd post here, especially if we splitting, the anime contradictions don't apply to manga in such a case
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Most on topic dbz crt tbh
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Do you have that scan?
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I'm not actually sure if the DBS Anime is separate from the manga now or not. I'm just justifying why I would think it is based on the previous thread's results.
Whis might be knowledgeable but is that equivalent to the artist himself depicting it with the macrocosm model and not a cosmic globe? It's not like we can recognise Universe 10 by how the macrocosm looks. It even comes with text to specify what universe it is. If the usage of the model were so arbitrary he would have just lazily slapped a cosmic sphere in and called it a day.
Not sure what you mean by the World of Kais example. It's depicted as a bubble floating around the macrocosm with a bunch of stars and a tiny sphere in the centre (which is the actual planet). The DBS Manga scan I posted earlier shows it. Can't see the contradiction.
I'd also argue the cosmic spheres depicted in the manga are even more of an abstraction because, again, the spheres shown by Whis were imaginary or illusionary and the ones with Zeno were used as decoration for chess pieces. The only time we see the universe be represented as an actual construct that we (the viewer) are going into is the macrocosm model. My reasoning for favouring that depiction should be pretty understandable. Hence why I don't consider it cherrypicking.
This is a public forum so my post is something multiple people will read. So it's not just for you but for other people.
No I'm saying this is my argument and if it doesn't convince you then there's nothing more for me to say.
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Can we send scan? sure bubble in the manga. Heres whis statement
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clouds are above the Universe it seemed and same distance so should be the same size as it + different realm on top of it all.
I hate the image insertion kek
I hate the image insertion kek
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If it isnt, then SS scene totally ***** the model being used, at that point we have the answer. If not, then yeah it's debatable.
It's actually more important given it's the actual source material, and we have no reason to assume it's an abstraction in Whis' case, while we KNOW it is in the model case.
"But the source uses the model too", yeah, once, in a non-literal instance.
Tbh the fact they just used the model and lazily slapped text saying "u10 btw" makes me think the exact opposite.
Because, at least in the anime, it isn't.
Whis wasn't the literal uni, but they're meant to depict them, why would Whis explanation feature abstractions? Is that what he thinks the uni's look like? If he does, then they probably DO look like that, he'd know. If not, why would he depict them like that?
And Zeno, yeah sure, but the fact it's more in line with Whis', implicates Whis' explanation shows what they actually look like. They must be based on something for both in-universe cases to be shown visually similar?
And while they might be small, they obviously meant to depict them still. And if they don't look like that, why depict them as such in-context? Why wouldn't Zeno have uni spheres that look like the model instead if that's what they are?
It is all the same, I get why you think so, but it is what it is.
And that isn't actually true both Whis' and Zeno's show it as an actual construct, it just happens to be widely different.
"You want a statement but we have an entire visual representation of how the cosmology looks as a primary source." - you replying to me
That's directed directly at me
Idk, post a bit more evidence to supercede Whis and Zeno's stuff?
Idk atm it's a simplified abstract model vs two in universe examples involving presumably knowledgable dudes.
Do we have extra evidence showing the model being used in canon? Like not the model itself, but stuff that'd only be possble with the model cosmology?
The first one is the point of contention, and the second is why it's contentious, but thank you.
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Don't really have much to respond right now, kind of busy and uninterested so just responding to this part. When I said 'you' I was meaning 'you' as in the abstraction of people who disagree with my take (look further up at my posts and you'll see me having discussions like that) and not specifically you."You want a statement but we have an entire visual representation of how the cosmology looks as a primary source." - you replying to me
That's directed directly at me
That's not really an excuse tho I should have used clearer language to communicate what I meant. So I apologise for how I came across there. That was a legit screw up on my part.
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It's fine I was just kinda like wtf given I just showed up.
Anyway, ignoring the fact this whole debate is derailing apparently, do we have extra evidence showing the model being used in canon? Like not the model itself, but stuff that'd only be possible with the model cosmology?
Because I feel like that's gonna be the deciding factor for the manga.
Anyway, ignoring the fact this whole debate is derailing apparently, do we have extra evidence showing the model being used in canon? Like not the model itself, but stuff that'd only be possible with the model cosmology?
Because I feel like that's gonna be the deciding factor for the manga.
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My God, just stop bringing repeated things in this crt, otherwise no one will read this, leave it to staff members.
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