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Dragon Ball Heroes and Xenoverse - Downgrade about statistics

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The time scroll showing the cell games tells me otherwise because he could easily see where they were going in the first place.
 
Not to mention it's confirmed to be the exact same version of the Cell Games DBH Vegeta previously went through, so the infinite timelines stuff doesn't matter. If he knows how to go back home (which he should), he would know how to go to the Cell Games again if he had the speed necessary.
 
Theglassman12 said:
The time scroll showing the cell games tells me otherwise because he could easily see where they were going in the first place.
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Not to mention it's confirmed to be the exact same version of the Cell Games DBH Vegeta previously went through, so the infinite timelines stuff doesn't matter. If he knows how to go back home (which he should), he would know how to go to the Cell Games again if he had the speed necessary.
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There’s countless variants of timelines and just stated to being a past doesn’t mean it’s not a different timeline like how future trunks is confirmed to be the future version of the trunks of the main canon timeline thats not a valid point he wouldn’t know which cell games to go to because there’s countless different cell games dk what you don’t understand about it
 
You do realize the countless timelines argument is irrelevant when Chronoa literally shows one time scroll (AKA one timeline) on where they’re going right? This argument is irrelevant here as Vegeta would be able to know where to go and not only would he need Chronoa’s help but has no showings of moving with raw speed, but use portals instead.
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
I don't have time to look over everything but from what I can see, the thread is currently discussing Immesurable Speed? That's a bit above my pay grade especially since I don't know the verse like that but can someone post the current arguments for and against so I can evalute it to some degree.
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I might aswell post some of them here:

The Dark Dragon Balls physically flew beyond space-time to different eras of time. They were visually shown to have physically flown away without any showings of portals, they were explicitly stated to have flown away without any mention of portals and Dragon Balls by default use physical flight for traveling, even the strongest DB's in the verse do it to travel to other universes. All the evidence clearly points that the Dark Dragon Balls physically flew beyond time. The argument against this was that the feat was done "off-screen" but we can clearly see the DDB's physically flying away on-screen so that claim is false.

The second feat is Chronoa, Trunks and Vegeta flying from the Cell era to the Buu era. You can clearly see them flying in the Crack of Time towards to Xeno Goku's location, so it's heavily implied that they actually flew that distance, thus physically flying to different eras. The argument against this is that they used the Crack of Time itself to travel from the Cell era to the Buu era, in the sense that the CoT itself funtions in a way that it could be used for time travel purposes. However, this was never actually established in-verse to be an actual function of the Crack of Time itself from what I've seen so the whole argument is literally based on headcanon. Adding a major new function to an important part of the cosmology with nothing but baseless assumptions/headcanon is a big no in my book.

An anti-feat argument was brought up about Vegeta needing Chronoa to go to his own history, implying that he can't do it own his own. However, my argument is that Vegeta simply doesn't know the specific destination of his history in space-time due to being just recruited (he doesn't even exactly know what a history even is at that point), with space-time destinations being an actual established thing in the verse, thus not an actual anti-feat. As I've explained, him being native to that timeline doesn't somehow grant him the info of his history's destination in space-time, it's not the same thing as finding your own house since you're navigating through an endless amount of other near identical histories. And as for the Time Scroll, him looking at a recording of his own history on a scroll doesn't grant him the actual destination of his history in space-time. Him "supposedly" knowing it's his own history doesn't change the fact that he would still need to navigate through space-time and know the actual destination of his own history if he went on his own. And to add the icing on the cake, Trunks (who's been in the Time Patrol longer than Vegeta at this point) who looked at and used the exact same Time Scroll as Vegeta did and went with Vegeta to that history only realized that they were in the Cell Games era after he actually went to that history and saw Cell there. Not to mention the fact that the Time Scroll literally only showed a giant crater in the ground so once again, there's no proof that Vegeta actually knew which history he was heading to when even Trunks didn't know at first and he used the exact same scroll that Vegeta did lol. Him not going to that history on his own is simply a case of him not knowing where to go, not an anti-feat.
 
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Dagoth_OwO said:
An anti-feat argument was brought up about Vegeta needing Chronoa to go to his own history, implying that he can't do it own his own. However, my argument is that Vegeta simply doesn't know the specific destination of his history in space-time due to being just recruited (he doesn't even exactly know what a history even is at that point), with space-time destinations being an actual established thing in the verse, thus not an actual anti-feat. As I've explained, him being native to that timeline doesn't somehow grant him the info of his history's destination in space-time, it's not the same thing as finding your own house since you're navigating through an endless amount of other near identical histories. And as for the Time Scroll, him looking at a recording of his own history on a scroll doesn't grant him the actual destination of his history in space-time. Him "supposedly" knowing it's his own history doesn't change the fact that he would still need to navigate through space-time and know the actual destination of his own history if he went on his own. And to add the icing on the cake, Trunks (who's been in the Time Patrol longer than Vegeta at this point) who looked at and used the exact same Time Scroll as Vegeta did and went with Vegeta to that history only realized that they were in the Cell Games era after he actually went to that history and saw Cell there. Not to mention the fact that the Time Scroll literally only showed a giant crater in the ground so once again, there's no proof that Vegeta actually knew which history he was heading to when even Trunks didn't know at first and he used the exact same scroll that Vegeta did lol. Him not going to that history on his own is simply a case of him not knowing where to go, not an anti-feat.
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If you can have that much speed and not be able to time travel into any place you already know of in any point in time in between a starting & last point in time due to lack of experience, then we were fools to not point this out in our Speed page as something that can't be an anti-feat. This rules are completely made up to me.
 
Eficiente said:
If you can have that much speed and not be able to time travel into any place you already know of in any point in time in between a starting & last point in time due to lack of experience, then we were fools to not point this out in our Speed page as something that can't be an anti-feat. This rules are completely made up to me.
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your message is kind of confusing
 
Eficiente said:
If you can have that much speed and not be able to time travel into any place you already know of in any point in time in between a starting & last point in time due to lack of experience
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Hey Efi, the entire point was that Vegeta didn’t know where the hell he was supposed to go, he had no way of knowing when he’d have reached the right timeline. Assuming he wasn’t an infinite distance away from it at which point the question becomes if he even has enough stamina to cross that distance.
 
Greenshifter said:
Hey Efi, the entire point was that Vegeta didn’t know where the hell he was supposed to go, he had no way of knowing when he’d have reached the right timeline. Assuming he wasn’t an infinite distance away from it at which point the question becomes if he even has enough stamina to cross that distance.
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Basically this there’s countless different timelines of cell games so vegeta wouldn’t know which one is the correct timeline despite knowing it’s cell games because there’s countless identical timelines and he’s a new time patroller
 
Greenshifter said:
Hey Efi, the entire point was that Vegeta didn’t know where the hell he was supposed to go, he had no way of knowing when he’d have reached the right timeline. Assuming he wasn’t an infinite distance away from it at which point the question becomes if he even has enough stamina to cross that distance.
Click to expand...
He didn't show any proof that it's a different timeline than his own, and my issue is with the idea established here:

"Him "supposedly" knowing it's his own history doesn't change the fact that he would still need to navigate through space-time and know the actual destination of his own history if he went on his own"

as something to follow. It doesn't matter how you think "the entire point" is something else, this is a point made. I disagree with this being intuitive, it's a massive game-changer on how to judge Immeasurable speed that comes out of nowhere, to me this should clearly be proposed to be written somewhere first rather than just being brought up in the CRT of 1 verse.
 
Dagoth_OwO said:
I might aswell post some of them here:

The Dark Dragon Balls physically flew beyond space-time to different eras of time. They were visually shown to have physically flown away without any showings of portals, they were explicitly stated to have flown away without any mention of portals and Dragon Balls by default use physical flight for traveling, even the strongest DB's in the verse do it to travel to other universes. All the evidence clearly points that the Dark Dragon Balls physically flew beyond time. The argument against this was that the feat was done "off-screen" but we can clearly see the DDB's physically flying away on-screen so that claim is false.

The second feat is Chronoa, Trunks and Vegeta flying from the Cell era to the Buu era. You can clearly see them flying in the Crack of Time towards to Xeno Goku's location, so it's heavily implied that they actually flew that distance, thus physically flying to different eras. The argument against this is that they used the Crack of Time itself to travel from the Cell era to the Buu era, in the sense that the CoT itself funtions in a way that it could be used for time travel purposes. However, this was never actually established in-verse to be an actual function of the Crack of Time itself from what I've seen so the whole argument is literally based on headcanon. Adding a major new function to an important part of the cosmology with nothing but baseless assumptions/headcanon is a big no in my book.

An anti-feat argument was brought up about Vegeta needing Chronoa to go to his own history, implying that he can't do it own his own. However, my argument is that Vegeta simply doesn't know the specific destination of his history in space-time due to being just recruited (he doesn't even exactly know what a history even is at that point), with space-time destinations being an actual established thing in the verse, thus not an actual anti-feat. As I've explained, him being native to that timeline doesn't somehow grant him the info of his history's destination in space-time, it's not the same thing as finding your own house since you're navigating through an endless amount of other near identical histories. And as for the Time Scroll, him looking at a recording of his own history on a scroll doesn't grant him the actual destination of his history in space-time. Him "supposedly" knowing it's his own history doesn't change the fact that he would still need to navigate through space-time and know the actual destination of his own history if he went on his own. And to add the icing on the cake, Trunks (who's been in the Time Patrol longer than Vegeta at this point) who looked at and used the exact same Time Scroll as Vegeta did and went with Vegeta to that history only realized that they were in the Cell Games era after he actually went to that history and saw Cell there. Not to mention the fact that the Time Scroll literally only showed a giant crater in the ground so once again, there's no proof that Vegeta actually knew which history he was heading to when even Trunks didn't know at first and he used the exact same scroll that Vegeta did lol. Him not going to that history on his own is simply a case of him not knowing where to go, not an anti-feat.
Click to expand...
This seems fine to me.
 
For thr assumption about all space time = One space time I have already address this from a particular user argument to downgrade dbh.

I think it pretty obviously refers to how history is also a flow of time for everything in the multiverse. Which is also supported by how their pretty conjugated in terms of subject matter. https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/t...e_nest.webp/revision/latest?cb=20210213080115

And considering we’ve seen time be non linear in that these timelines are not inside just one and are relatively independent physically from one another (that one statement where it says history has infinite branches or whatever) this is just yet again another attempt at splitting hairs to fit a narrative.

The rest i will read and address them when i have spare time
 
Second Argumention

Regarding the hole demigra would die if he destroy history, I can't remember the person who helped me with the japanese translation version for dragon ball xenoverse but he has confirmed multiple times everything what chrona says are actually mistranslation(some parts) he even translates demigra sentence which demigra said he wanted to destroy all history and chrona never said it would kill him. It also could mean demigra has a weaker durability, take zeno for example he has a wack durability but has a higher AP. DB DOESNT DESTROY SOMEONE AP.

Third Agument
You do realize timelines = multiverse in dragon ball right? According to multiple statements in xenoverse History are consider infinite branches and in your own argument your agreeing timeline = history so in other words it does mean the whole multiverse.
 
God900 said:
No, stop while you are ahead.

We already addresed all of that, and Xenoverse won't be downgraded aded, just that the 2-A justifications need to be reworded.
Please, otherwise we will derail the thread unnecessarly.


Let's just stick with what is left, ir Speed
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Alright my bad ill be looking over the speed
 
I feel like the Vegeta argument has been disproved by the fact that Vegeta is a new time patroller alongside the fact that theres countless identical timelines of the cell games so even if Vegeta did or didn’t know if they would be traveling to the cell games he wouldn’t be able to accurately choose the correct one but what’s the argument against this?
 
The time scroll is literally there for vegeta to see so they know which timeline and which event they're going to, there's no reason to assume vegeta literally has no idea where/when they were going when the time scroll is right there for him to see. The fact Chronoa needs to help him get there, and we see them use portals to reach to the other eras are counterintuitive to them being immeasurable speed since they could just move through time instead of having a portal open in the first place.
 
Theglassman12 said:
The time scroll is literally there for vegeta to see so they know which timeline and which event they're going to, there's no reason to assume vegeta literally has no idea where/when they were going when the time scroll is right there for him to see. The fact Chronoa needs to help him get there, and we see them use portals to reach to the other eras are counterintuitive to them being immeasurable speed since they could just move through time instead of having a portal open in the first place.
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But there’s countless similar events I think we do seem them use portals sometimes besides the times where they use the crack of time to time travel but it’s outside of space and time and doesn’t help with time travel
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
And, again, Trunks confirms it's the same version of the events that this (the DBH version) Vegeta has already lived through. So ofc he'd know where to go, it's his own damn timeline.
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When did he claim that it was the exact same vegeta? If it was just claimed that the cell saga vegeta is a past version that doesn’t necessarily mean that Future Trunks is a future version of “main timeline” Trunks but the events within both timelines are way different
 
godofice said:
When did he claim that it was the exact same vegeta? If it was just claimed that the cell saga vegeta is a past version that doesn’t necessarily mean that Future Trunks is a future version of “main timeline” Trunks but the events within both timelines are way different
Click to expand...
image.png

"This guy is you in the past" is clear indication that this is the exact same Vegeta, just at different points in time.
 
Think the best would just be for both sides to compile all their evidence and arguments for and against immeasurable speed to put in one final post encompassing everything on the subject and let any relevant staff come to see whose sides makes the most sense otherwise this back and forth will keep going on
 
Dalesean027 said:
Think the best would just be for both sides to compile all their evidence and arguments for and against immeasurable speed to put in one final post encompassing everything on the subject and let any relevant staff come to see whose sides makes the most sense otherwise this back and forth will keep going on
Click to expand...
Can you do it?
 
StrymULTRA said:
I have shared both the albums, and this is what I have got



So I am sorry fellas, but Demigra still dies from that.
Click to expand...

I am sorry for being this type of person but in my view of studing japanase kanjis and sentences I believe we should look over this translation because if you look for the kanjis they provide it verbertality states: Nanimokamo ga kiete shimau no yo! ! ! which means everything will be destroyed. I find it weird they didn't use something together like Soshite, anata wa sore ni sotte hakai sa remasu which fits to chrona other word for demigra being destroyed.

Regarding the other translation from someone else the kanji they used is そんなことしたらあなただってただじゃすまないわ! They use すまない which means sorry

Chiper has confirmed to me that it translates to everything will be destroyed well send it later since were talking about something
 
Dalesean027 said:
Think the best would just be for both sides to compile all their evidence and arguments for and against immeasurable speed to put in one final post encompassing everything on the subject and let any relevant staff come to see whose sides makes the most sense otherwise this back and forth will keep going on
Click to expand...
I already did this tho....
 
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