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Dragon Ball Heroes and Xenoverse - Downgrade about statistics

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We all will need to find out.

As I said, I know some translators, meaning we can indeed check the raws using an actual human translator rather than MTL.
 
Some things that maybe help.

Secondly, physical movement beyond time via physical movement is Immeasurable speed.
Click to expand...

Our Speed page is very broken, fixing it will need to downgrade dozens of characters and it's going to be very ugly. It's one of those cases where people thought they meant what they said but in reality wrote vague things that can easily be misinterpreted.

Being able to travel through time is only Immeasurable speed with a number of "ifs" to it, it can always look as if it's via movement and not be just that, but powers that need to be used that way, even if the movements used in them and their speed matter. Time Travel like that doesn't need to be stated to be a power just like someone just showing to use any power and not saying what it is is already proving to be using that power.

You literally just posted evidence that warping the space time of an infinite multiverse is enough evidence
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And demigra can warp all space-time, the entirety of the structure
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The text about significantly affect is misleading and means that the feats need to be proven to be comparable to them in power to be in the same tier, not that any feat like that is at that level, which you already know is not the case. I tried to fixed it once but I kinda forgot about it.
 
Eficiente said:
Our Speed page is very broken, fixing it will need to downgrade dozens of characters and it's going to be very ugly. It's one of those cases where people thought they meant what they said but in reality wrote vague things that can easily be misinterpreted.

Being able to travel through time is only Immeasurable speed with a number of "ifs" to it, it can always look as if it's via movement and not be just that, but powers that need to be used that way, even if the movements used in them and their speed matter. Time Travel like that doesn't need to be stated to be a power just like someone just showing to use any power and not saying what it is is already proving to be using that power.
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What do you suggest for our speed page, more specifically?
 
Anyway, can somebody properly explain the arguments for each side here in easy to understand manners please, as well as provide a tally for the votes from our staff members here?
 
Antvasima said:
What do you suggest for our speed page, more specifically?
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I think anyone can read it and get the idea that time travel in a non-flashy way is Immeasurable speed, especially if it happens many times/many characters do it, the standards that need to be met there are not clear.

"Movement beyond linear time" is clonky worded, as being in a place stated to be outside time doesn't give anything.

It's also so weird that Immeasurable speed exists because "the speed formula cannot be applied" yet moving in Timeless Voids is meaningless due to a factor in the formula being "Not Applicable" (/ "Nonexistent"); Math's not my area, but I would think the page does nothing useful to explain why the speed formula not being able to be applied means the speed has to be "infinite while being able to travel across any point in time", which is not something that even comes from the formula in the first place. It says that "Being able to casually roam around freely across linear time qualifies for immeasurable speed" yet the speed formula can be used there, it's just that the results are bs, which I would not intuitively equalize to Immeasurable speed.
 
Eficiente said:
I think anyone can read it and get the idea that time travel in a non-flashy way is Immeasurable speed, especially if it happens many times/many characters do it, the standards that need to be met there are not clear.

"Movement beyond linear time" is clonky worded, as being in a place stated to be outside time doesn't give anything.

It's also so weird that Immeasurable speed exists because "the speed formula cannot be applied" yet moving in Timeless Voids is meaningless due to a factor in the formula being "Not Applicable" (/ "Nonexistent"); Math's not my area, but I would think the page does nothing useful to explain why the speed formula not being able to be applied means the speed has to be "infinite while being able to travel across any point in time", which is not something that even comes from the formula in the first place. It says that "Being able to casually roam around freely across linear time qualifies for immeasurable speed" yet the speed formula can be used there, it's just that the results are bs, which I would not intuitively equalize to Immeasurable speed.
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it was well explained and I agree with what you just mentioned, before I just read it on the page I didn't know how to get immeasurable or infinite speed, that is very difficult to understand, I could use examples of what a character with such speed is

And explain it in an easy way so that everyone understands
 
Antvasima said:
Anyway, can somebody properly explain the arguments for each side here in easy to understand manners please, as well as provide a tally for the votes from our staff members here?
Click to expand...
Cosmology being both 2-A and shared between Xenoverse and Heroes is now being agreed between both sides.

We are now currentlty talking about how Xenoverse characters would scale to said cosmology and Immeasurable speed for Heroes ones.

About Xenoverse, apparentely the JP version of the dialogue does not say that Demigra would die from the destruction of the multiverse unlike in the English version.

These are the feats.





English versions if you want to compare

And already asked here, btw.
 
God900 said:
Yeah.

Mira seems right.

Beerus (obv) would upscale from Mira, and thus the AP ratings wouldn't change much.


Besides, Domino already said that Demigra's statements/feats for 2-A were hella outdated
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What about Chronoa's stuff?

Would she be downgraded, as I did not see a counter to that yet.
 
StrymULTRA said:
What about Chronoa's stuff?

Would she be downgraded, as I did not see a counter to that yet.
Click to expand...

Hmmmm...

Well, to settle this for starters, we know now that thanks to Mira XV main cast keeps it's 2-A rating ( ̶I̶ ̶o̶w̶n̶ ̶h̶i̶m̶ ̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶̶̶̶̶̶̶̶t̶h̶i̶s̶...)

Also update the OP so we only Talk about Chronoa

However, about Chronoa, Well, Xenoverse Chronoa never had a profile here in the wiki, and none of the Xenoverse games she fought physically, or even got into a fight.


Now, her rating. When Dabura meant the Time Nest/along History and it's world, the "History" in this context means multiverse/collection of timelines, such as Ottavio posted yesterday:




So in this context, the "world " as you say it's Conton City, but it would perish along with it's "history", the Multiverse.

This is more soldified by the fact that if the time Nest is destroyed, all timelines would be gone.

So we can say she's dead would trigger a chain reaction making everything gone.

Also in the dialogue from XV1 that you sent me, the Spt didn't say that "History" aswell would be gone. In this case, Dabura was more concrete and detailed about that Matter than in the first game.

Surprisingly this is very similar as to when Demigra was about to do the same, however, no one said anything close to "dying" or being "destroyed" in the case, unlike Demigra's case
 
God900 said:
However, about Chronoa, Well, Xenoverse Chronoa never had a profile here in the wiki, and none of the Xenoverse games she fought physically, or even got into a fight.
Click to expand...
She does have a Xenoverse key.
God900 said:
So in this context, the "world " as you say it's Conton City, but it would perish along with it's "history", the Multiverse.

This is more soldified by the fact that if the time Nest is destroyed, all timelines would be gone.

So we can say she's dead would trigger a chain reaction making everything gone.

Also in the dialogue from XV1 that you sent me, the Spt didn't say that "History" aswell would be gone. In this case, Dabura was more concrete and detailed about that Matter than in the first game.

Surprisingly this is very similar as to when Demigra was about to do the same, however, no one said anything close to "dying" or being "destroyed" in the case, unlike Demigra's case
Click to expand...
I can see Xenoverse Dabura being 2-A from scaling from FW2 yes.

Would Chronoa become 4-B though?
 
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StrymULTRA said:
I can see Xenoverse Dabura being 2-A from scaling from FW2 yes.

Would Chronoa become 4-B though?
Click to expand...

Well, yeah. Altho, even FW1 would also be 2-A by upscaling. I mean a brainwashed FW1 was able to fight our Xenoverse 2 CAC which was able to fight Mira later, also, the fact that XV1 and XV2 Beerus are pretty much the same, and Beerus is much stronger than even Final form Mira by scaling as later Super characters are stronger than Ultimate Mira , and FW1 was able to fight toe to toe with Beerus aswell.


Chronoa, Well, I mean, if you see my reasoning above, such as "History" meaning multiple timelines in the scan I sent you above, she would be 2-A, however.....

She would NOT be 2-A physically, mostly becouse we haven't seen her fight, characters such as Towa can beat her up physcally, XV Chronoa's physycal strenght is rather unknown for now...

So physically 4-B would be fine
 
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God900 said:
Well, yeah. Altho, even FW1 would also be 2-A by upscaling. I mean.
Was able to fight our Xenoverse 2 CAC which was able to fight Mira later, also, the fact that XV1 and XV2 Beerus are pretty much the same, and Beerus is much stronger than even Final form Mira by scaling as later Super characters are stronger than Ultimate Mira , and FW1 was able to fight toe to toe with Beerus aswell.


Chronoa, Well, I mean, if you see my reasoning above, such as "History" meaning multiple timelines in the scan I sent you above, she would be 2-A, however.....

She would NOT be 2-A physically, mostly becouse we haven't seen her fight, characters such as Towa can beat her up physcally, XV Chronoa's physycal strenght is rather unknown for now...

So physically 4-B would be fine
Click to expand...
FW1 did imply to have become stronger since XV1 tho, 2 years have passed after all.

And Xenoverse 1 Beerus stated that Demigra was so weak that he not even worth of making him wake up from his sleep, meaning that Beerus simply was holding back all the time back in XV1.

So I can see:
A time skip exists after all, so them becoming from 2-C to 2-A does make sense.
 
StrymULTRA said:
FW1 did imply to have become stronger since XV1 tho, 2 years have passed after all.

And Xenoverse 1 Beerus stated that Demigra was so weak that he not even worth of making him wake up from his sleep, meaning that Beerus simply was holding back all the time back in XV1.

So I can see:
A time skip exists after all, so them becoming from 2-C to 2-A does make sense.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that.

But Beerus is still 2-A tho, he should be massively above Trunks and Mira.
 
A little doubt about Demigra however...

If TokiToki is 2-C already from creating a timeline, Demigra getting 2-A from another creation feat feels odd.

As said in the doc, History can mean also a singular timeline (and Demigra also talks erasing FW1 from history, a bit like Trunks was disappearing from having his timeline messed up).

So, wouldn't Demigra be 2-A only with Environmental Destruction? Coz it seems more consistent with the whole setting around Demigra's plan and TokiToki's powers.
 
StrymULTRA said:
I never said he's not, but he does not have a profile here lmao.
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Yeah sadly, I probably gonna make him one.

Also, didn't FW1 fight on par with Beerus and Whis in a test? In XV1 at the end of the Game...alongside with XV Trunks?

I think he would also scale.

So end of XV1 FW1 would also scale to 2-A tho
 
StrymULTRA said:
A little doubt about Demigra however...

If TokiToki is 2-C already from creating a timeline, Demigra getting 2-A from another creation feat feels odd.

As said in the doc, History can mean also a singular timeline (and Demigra also talks erasing FW1 from history, a bit like Trunks was disappearing from having his timeline messed up).

So, wouldn't Demigra be 2-A only with Environmental Destruction? Coz it seems more consistent with the whole setting around Demigra's plan and TokiToki's powers.
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Yeah, he would be 2-A via enviromemtal destruction thanks to that.
 
God900 said:
Yeah sadly, I probably gonna make him one.
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Make a sandbox 1st.
God900 said:
Also, didn't FW1 fight on par with Beerus and Whis in a test? In XV1 at the end of the Game...alongside with XV Trunks?

I think he would also scale.

So end of XV1 FW1 would also scale to 2-A tho
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There is an issue.

It was a test as you said, nothing said they went serious. I do not use all my strength when testing the durability of a pencil for example.

Demigra, XV1 Goku and FW1 were all in the same ballpark of power, and Beerus said that such a power level as theirs is not even worth his attention as I already said in XV1 ending. Heck, at the end of the test Beerus takes all of that as extremely casual.

So XV1 cast does not scale to Beerus at all.
 
Ok.....

Now that I think about this.


XV Trunks and FW1 fought toe to toe against Beerus and Whis in the test, to the point of defeating them.

FW1 would also scale and get the 2-A from XV Trunks.


Also, we got the fact that a single astral projection of Demigra was able to hold his own pretty Well against FW1 efforts (Who fought on par with Beerus) and Beerus who we know was holding back.

At the end of the story FW1 fights toe to toe alongside XV who is 2-A.

And in multiple cases Demigra fought our CAC toe to toe, even till the final fight.

And the test against Beerus and Whis takes action in the same story line just right after Demigra is defeated.


Meaning Demigra ironically is 2-A physcally aswell....🗿🗿🗿
 
God900 said:
XV Trunks and FW1 fought toe to toe against Beerus and Whis in the test, to the point of defeating them.
Click to expand...
Nothing says they were serious with them though, as I said.

Otherwise they are stronger than Whis, who is >>>> XV2 Goku who is comparable to XV2 MIra.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Nothing says they were serious with them though, as I said.

Otherwise they are stronger than Whis, who is >>>> XV2 Goku who is comparable to XV2 MIra.
Click to expand...


Hmmmm yeah, you probably right.

So as you said in XV2 the scaling would probably start from XV2 Mira and Trunks, so from BOG and forward characters would be 2-A..


And yeah, XV1 Future warrior would probably need another key for his 2-A self, with that justification, It seems.

And yeah, 2-C Demigra, 2-A via enviromental destruction.

The same thing with Chronoa.
 
Altho, this AP thing regarding Xenoverse seems pretty much done,.......

However I would like more insight from the rest of the supporters, such as Ottavio, Vietthai or OwO....
 
Xenoverse 2 Demigra is a whole other can of worms ngl, he's explcitly from another timeline.

I wonder if a new key would be necessary for that.
 
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