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DMC Downgrades (the ones everyone expected)

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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Yeah uh

I'll come back to this but I'll just say that the demon world "creating" 9D objects is not so vastly different from 9D objects existing in other realms. There is no reason why a 4D realm can suddenly hold 9 spatial axes, regardless of whether or not it's creating them.
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Don't think that's how it works but at best it's a tiering system issue and not our problem (I mainly say this to avoid derailment, i don't want 10 pages lmao). If there's nothing else to talk about then we can move on to staff's takes on this
 
I'm largely in agreement with Sir Ovens on the matter. While I'm skeptical of (though not entirely opposed to) 9D DMC, I think it's 5D at the bare minimum. The Demon World scaling to 5D due to being infinite in comparison to the Low 2-C Human World is similar in principle to the Low 1-C justifications for Kingdom Hearts and Bayonetta (both of which were accepted by admins in their respective CRTs and are recorded as such on the wiki).

Ultimately, I think the discussion boils down to whether or not the higher dimensions mentioned in the PoC have actual qualitive superiority/transcendence. The other arguments I've seen on this thread are, at best, irrelevant to the topic at hand and, at worst, borderline derailment.
 
Lukewoesal007 said:
I'm largely in agreement with Sir Ovens on the matter. While I'm skeptical of (though not entirely opposed to) 9D DMC, I think it's 5D at the bare minimum. The Demon World scaling to 5D due to being infinite in comparison to the Low 2-C Human World is similar in principle to the Low 1-C justifications for Kingdom Hearts and Bayonetta (both of which were accepted by admins in their respective CRTs and are recorded as such on the wiki).

Ultimately, I think the discussion boils down to whether or not the higher dimensions mentioned in the PoC have actual qualitive superiority/transcendence. The other arguments I've seen on this thread are, at best, irrelevant to the topic at hand and, at worst, borderline derailment.
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The thing is that accepting 5D means accepting 9D which ovens explained it better than I could

Basically they need to debunk 5D altogether and for that the wiki standards need to change (which if you check the original upgrade threads we were already talking about)
 
Tony_di_bugalu said:
The thing is that accepting 5D means accepting 9D which ovens explained it better than I could

Basically they need to debunk 5D altogether and for that the wiki standards need to change (which if you check the original upgrade threads we were already talking about)
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So, from my understanding, the Demon World's size in comparison to that of the Human World's is enough to show qualitive superiority. Normally, since the Human World is a space-time continuum, that would place the Demon World at 5D as a default under our standards. You're arguing that the statement from PoC further substantiates on the nature of this superiority, clarifying that the Demon World isn't just a dimension higher that the 4D Human World, but rather five. Am I accurate?
 
Lukewoesal007 said:
So, from my understanding, the Demon World's size in comparison to that of the Human World's is enough to show qualitive superiority. Normally, since the Human World is a space-time continuum, that would place the Demon World at 5D as a default under our standards. You're arguing that the statement from PoC further substantiates on the nature of this superiority, clarifying that the Demon World isn't just a dimension higher that the 4D Human World, but rather five. Am I accurate?
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Yes
 
Lukewoesal007 said:
So, from my understanding, the Demon World's size in comparison to that of the Human World's is enough to show qualitive superiority. Normally, since the Human World is a space-time continuum, that would place the Demon World at 5D as a default under our standards. You're arguing that the statement from PoC further substantiates on the nature of this superiority, clarifying that the Demon World isn't just a dimension higher that the 4D Human World, but rather five. Am I accurate?
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Pretty much, ye
 
I'm fine with either current solid 1-C or At least Low 1-C, possibly/likely 1-C. However the later make more sense to me personally
 
Lukewoesal007 said:
So, from my understanding, the Demon World's size in comparison to that of the Human World's is enough to show qualitive superiority. Normally, since the Human World is a space-time continuum, that would place the Demon World at 5D as a default under our standards. You're arguing that the statement from PoC further substantiates on the nature of this superiority, clarifying that the Demon World isn't just a dimension higher that the 4D Human World, but rather five. Am I accurate?
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Thats textbook low 1-C.

And then you have that 9D scan-
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Yes
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Tony_di_bugalu said:
Pretty much, ye
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If that's the case, I think I can agree with 9D.

I think the main issue with the rating is that, while it does come from a single line of flavor text, there's no way of really scrutinizing it without splitting hairs over the differences in superiority between a 4D realm and a 5D realm compared to that of a 4D realm and a 9D realm. Both a 5D and 9D realm would view a 4D realm as infinitesimal (just to different degrees). It's a bit of a technicality, but I can't think of a way to disprove it either (without holding the verse to an unfair, unprecedented level of specificity, that is).
 
Jesus Christ I go away for a few hours and this happens?

Anyways I’m still staying neutral but I am going to say this, the light is 100% referring to the human world when they verbatim refer to it as the human world. It being hope or whatever is complete headcanon and relies on ignoring the next line. Honestly the only way this can argue against Tier 1 DMC is if you’re taking the PoC statement about the light that split the world apart.

And I will bring up this since I have a feeling that someone is going to being this up in the future so we might as well address it. Souls in DMC, more specifically Demon souls are shown to be the devil arms that Dante and Vergil uses in the games they’re in, so if there’s any explanation that can debunk this being an anti feat for tier 1 souls they should be brought up to clear up any misconceptions.
 
Theglassman12 said:
And I will bring up this since I have a feeling that someone is going to being this up in the future so we might as well address it. Souls in DMC, more specifically Demon souls are shown to be the devil arms that Dante and Vergil uses in the games they’re in, so if there’s any explanation that can debunk this being an anti feat for tier 1 souls they should be brought up to clear up any misconceptions.
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That's more so up the alley of @RedReaper, @Tony_di_bugalu and @Sevil Natas.
 
Robo said:
The issue is that people want to see the qualitative difference between 9D and 5D in the verse.
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My point is that, in theory, the ontological difference between a 4D realm and a 5D realm compared to the difference between a 4D realm and a 9D realm should obviously look entirely different. However, in practice, it'd be impossible to determine the "level of infinitesimality" of the Human World compared to the Demon World without setting the precedent that verses should be expected to specify such a concept.
 
Theglassman12 said:
Jesus Christ I go away for a few hours and this happens?

Anyways I’m still staying neutral but I am going to say this, the light is 100% referring to the human world when they verbatim refer to it as the human world. It being hope or whatever is complete headcanon and relies on ignoring the next line. Honestly the only way this can argue against Tier 1 DMC is if you’re taking the PoC statement about the light that split the world apart.

And I will bring up this since I have a feeling that someone is going to being this up in the future so we might as well address it. Souls in DMC, more specifically Demon souls are shown to be the devil arms that Dante and Vergil uses in the games they’re in, so if there’s any explanation that can debunk this being an anti feat for tier 1 souls they should be brought up to clear up any misconceptions.
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To be frank, the manipulation of Souls in DMC can't be used as an Anti-Feat. Dante and Vergil explicitly have a Demonic Power that converts these souls into physical objects, which honestly makes sense because they can rewrite Names, which are large portions/fragments of the Soul that also predate reality. (As in, ALSO around the era of the Original Chaos.) They also have Soul Manipulation to begin with.

This ability doesn't exist for someone like Nero, (at least for NOW), who can only absorb Demonic Power through the Devil Bringer. (Though he can manipulate Souls.)

The only people who don't have this power who manipulate these Souls (that aren't Nero or other Demons), is Humans, which we know can harness Demonic Power for their own needs via rituals, (Arkham), intense study of magic, (Arius), and those who have turned themselves into Demons, (Agnus/OotS and Chen), after their research of said demonic arts via science. Nico only manufactures artifical Devil Arms, and she makes clear that she could only do that with her father, Agnus, research.

Further, any normal Humans who wield Devil Arms have to be "strong enough," to use them, otherwise these Souls/Devil Arms consume them. While this isn't indicative of Tier 1, it IS of the fact these weapons are not able to be wielded by anyone. They are objects of immense power that can improve even the power of other Demons (as Lucia specifically stagnated in power and only had Devil Arms left as an avenue to further increase her powers). And as we know from Kaitai Shinsho, a strong Human Spirit can amplify Demonic Power, providing power in general, as well as allow Humans to survive what would ordinarily kill them. There also isn't anyone who does so in canon anyway, outside of Lady, who is the Descendent of a Priestess and Arkham, who intensely studied magic and even told his daughter stories about said magic, (something Lady tells us herself in the DMC3 Intro). Info she likely put to good use by using Silver to hunt Demons. She's also clearly not the normal person, having survived and endured the events of the Temen-ni-gru.

In short, the series doesn't have any real Anti-Feats surrounding Devil Arms because the people who do have to be a Human who has harnessed magic, has accessed their Human Spirit, or are part Demon in some way. All of which is connected to the power system that created the souls to begin with: Demon Stuffs.

Edit: Also, forgot to mention, but we don’t scale individuals to 9-D by just messing with Souls. They get 1-C from messing with the Dimension that created Souls/affecting the entire cosmology. That’s why only God Tiers get 1-C to begin with. So no low tier Demons or random examples (such as Devil Arms) would apply regardless.
 
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Welp to summarize how shit went down:

Accepting Low 1-C Demon world by default allows 1-C/9-D because of how standard work (explained here and kinda here).

To debunk it you need to either debunk Low 1-C or change the tier standards.

As for the souls stuff, the guys have already explained how stuff works.

Sooo...uhhhh... Yeah. Unless the OP wants to keep going I would suggest this to be closed.
 
I advocate to make a rule to ban the topic about downgrading the tier 1 DMC too after this thread concluded because frankly, many of the users around this site has an issue about this so i afraid there will be more to come
Of course this is just an idea so if this isn't being supported then it's fine
 
I don't think a rule is necessary. Yes the tiers will bring a lot of bad attention and a lot of people hate it but it is what it is (also proves that bias alone can't work), it also doesn't mean we will get flooded with downgrade attempts or that every attempt will be the same, specially when this one targeted very specific things.

I would say wait until we get: 1) Idk around 5 threads using the same arguments 2) PoC somehow stops being canon 3) PoC upgrades the verse to tier 0
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Note, I only suggested discussion rule for Manga. Because that's all that caused ruckus.
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Creating a discussion rule for something that has had 1 thread made on it is incredibly disingenuous you know. It's silencing any sort of opposition, put simply.

Anyways, I'll be making a thread on the HDE/tier 1 stuff, so this thread can be closed until that is resolved.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Creating a discussion rule for something that has had 1 thread made on it is incredibly disingenuous you know. It's silencing any sort of opposition, put simply.

Anyways, I'll be making a thread on the HDE/tier 1 stuff, so this thread can be closed until that is resolved.
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i was in the middle of responding to you but if you want to go change the standards that's alright for me ig
 
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