Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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DMC Downgrades (the ones everyone expected)
- Thread starter Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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You posted arguments that the majority seem to think are in bad faith or disingenuous. Perhaps you aren't lying or whatever but when your best argument is seemingly the 4th option of an MTL, I can see how it'd come off as that.
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The Ray of Light IS THE HUMAN WORLD, Fujiwara, what the hell are you saying?
"Darkness became the Demon World, Light became the Human World"
Palito266
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Are you serious
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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The MTL was used to show that "light" can be used in a metaphorical sense, representing hope or goodness. This is because the basis of tier 1 DMC is heavily founded upon the idea that the "ray of light" statement is meant to be taken at it's absolute most literal.
I never denied that. I just said they were never directly compared.
I could also give an example from another verse to show how bad this line of logic is, but I would get accused of whataboutism so
Not like it's easy for me to go back and check when I'm debating an 8v1 rn
Palito266
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Ok fair enough, i'll post the stuff tmmr since it's late for me now
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This again? Literally just went through this with you a few comments ago.
Like?I could also give an example from another verse to show how bad this line of logic is, but I would get accused of whataboutism so
Did you really expect the supporters to be absolute pushovers who just stand there and take it? Come on Fujiwara, you know better than that.
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Sure, "can". What about it is metaphorical though? Is there a cosmological contradiction? A change to how the human and demon world are presented that goes against it? Anything?
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Sorry to intrude, but the text provided does not imply anything related to "Hope". Not even metaphorically speaking.
The character 光 is explicitly the one used to refer to "Light".
だが その世界にも一条の光が差し
The semantic changes provided by the translator are only viable when they relate to making sense of the overall phrase, but are unreliable when the characters do not match what is shown.
Vietthai96
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The word "infinite/endless" directly refering to size, no offend but even me who have extremely bad skill in english know.
The later say beam/ray of light, obviously a ray/beam compare to endless/infinite darkness. The context itself is extremely direct
And if you don't mind, you can ask Gelium come here to discuss this matter, because from the discord screenshot you posted said: i don't see anything talking about their size directly, not explicit. So what he mean is
1. It is his personal thought on the scan, not a fact
2. He said "not directly, not explicit" doesn't invalidated the scan because not everything needed to be namedrop, told specifically, things can be conveyed via contexts. Japanese is a heavily contextual language
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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The human world is the ray of light. It is also not directly compared to the demon world. This is not a hard concept to grasp.
Fine.
In Touhou, there is an "Outside World" that is the equivalent of our own universe; A low 2-C space with finite spatial extent. There is also Hell, which is a low 2-C space with infinite spatial extent. Now, these two locations are never directly compared, but this would make Hell infinitely larger than the Outside World and thus low 1-C following the same logic that DMC does. But of course, we don't accept that, and you know as good as I do that I'd get my ass beat for even trying to put that in a CRT, because we do not tier things like that.
There are no cosmological contradictions to it being a metaphor, nor a change to the relationship between the human world and demon world (that I am aware of, at least). In a metaphorical sense, a ray of hope is somewhat self explanatory, though in this case it'd probably represent the ongoing plot of "demon hunters from the HW kick the shit out of demons from the DW" that DMC has.
光 can also be translated as hope, or at least it can within the context of that statement. This is something that would still make sense within context, or I at least have not been shown any evidence against that being the case.
Now where the hell did I say that?
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She's being rather calm, I think it's rather expected to be dejected however when dealing with this kind of back and forth with people.
Less focus on who is and isn't calm though please, only serves to frustrate people more.
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Ugh god, not this again.
Demon World is called unending darkness, immediately in the next line the ray of light that is eventually referred to as the Human World is mentioned.
I have no clue how you can dismiss this to be a direct comparison between the realms when this is how the sentences were made to demonstrate this.
If Touhou had a similar statement to DMC with some additional supporting ones, I don't see why Touhou wouldn't qualify. Depends on Ultima's mood on that day tho. GoW got kicked in but KH didn't.
Yeah no, that's not at all how the chain of events go down.
HW was on the losing side when they came out, yet it also destabilized the DW due to the constant conflicts. Pluto had to ******* step in to separate them to preserve each other's existence.
HW is only strong as it is today because of Sparda. Without him, HW would be toast.
Once again, context is key, and this is one of those places where your interpretation would not work.
It's honestly not a thing that needs to be said, but a thing that needs to be kept in mind when you go against a verse as big as this with plenty of devoted supporters on suicide watch 24/7 constantly looking for stuff for their verses.
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Bruh, who posted it?
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Tony's post
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Lmao you guys really spent 4 pages arguing about the ray of light bit when there's clear evidence that demons > the human world all this while?
Regardless, I'm still inclined to believe that based on Tony's post, Low 1-C is a bare minimum. My issue still stands that one singular line of 9D should not be taken at face value.
Regardless, I'm still inclined to believe that based on Tony's post, Low 1-C is a bare minimum. My issue still stands that one singular line of 9D should not be taken at face value.
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Yeah. I didn't realize just how bad it went until I actually started reading it for myself.
Honestly I'd be down for "At least Low 1-C, possibly 1-C" even.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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My guy, you can have two statements of things existing without them being directly compared. Why would we ever assume a comparison as the default? Especially when the comparison isn't even possible to make, as the HW isn't even given a defined size to be compared to.
That's ******* stupid and the example I gave is hilariously self-contradictory, so maybe this facet of the tiering system isn't really working as intended!
Don't see how this debunks what I said.
Is there though? The first scan is about humans not comprehending the reasons of demons, so not really a comparison in size/power (aside from the fact that the translation is hard to even read), and the second one also strikes me as odd because "I feel like I'm looking at infinity" isn't indicative of a higher-dimensional power gap. It'd be a high 3-A statement at its most generous, it seems.
Anyways, if Ovens has given his opinion (Yea on low 1-C, Nay on 1-C), then we should also probably call more staff here so we don't continue this indefinitely. As I said before, a "possibly low 1-C" is fine with me.
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It is not even remotely similar, all possible meanings are related to the word "Light" and there are even pages that prove it.
Whereas the word "Hope" is spelled like this 希望 and is not present anywhere in the text in HW and DW.
The problem is that the focus here is on the translation and not on the original text. Nowhere is there a context for the meaning of 光 meaning "Light" to change to "Hope" when these two are not even remotely similar.
After all, there is a reason why the explicit meaning of each word is sought when translating Japanese texts.
Vietthai96
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There is contexts, you just isolated statements and scans from each others and evaluated them, nothing gonna make sense if you did this
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At this point, I will say your personal opinion is noted Fuji.
and just wait for staff.
Elizhaa, Ultima and DDM would be be welcome to comment here. Since they have dealt with this before.
Ovens already said his opinion.
and just wait for staff.
Elizhaa, Ultima and DDM would be be welcome to comment here. Since they have dealt with this before.
Ovens already said his opinion.
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Except the sentence isn't prefaced that way in the first place, thus completely decimating your argument against it.
Oh? What are the contradictions? Care to explain them?
As for the other part whether you can get verses to qualify, it ultimately depends on bias towards or against it.
Debunks your part about superiority stuff.
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Elizhaa I can't find any note of. But I'll try tagging again regardless.
@Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @Ultima_Reality @Maverick_Zero_X Assistance needed again.
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Mav said she would comment on the low 1-C stuff later, so ping her too. As of now, Ovens, DDM, and Mav all agree with nuking 1-C, while ovens and DDM are fine with low 1-C.
Anyways, I'm tired as hell, so I will be back here tomorrow. I stg we better not be on page 7 by the time I wake up.
No, I meant contradictions to my own example, not DMC.
This is literally all the context I was given. Take it up with @Tony_di_bugalu, since he's the one who originally posted them.
Anyways, I'm tired as hell, so I will be back here tomorrow. I stg we better not be on page 7 by the time I wake up.
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Yeah, that's what I meant, I wasn't talking about DMC.
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Ok so, I've reread Tony's statement and consulted Ultima about it.
To my understanding, 9D comes from the one statement in PoC about 9D souls. Since all souls come from the demon world, it is then assumed that it is 9D. The reason for the dimensions being legitimate is because it is a fully sized realm that dwarfs human world in scope prior to applying a dimensional number to it.
Ultima approved the original 1-C thread based on the above. So if you're trying to downgrade DMC, you have to debunk the above. Me personally, my gripe isn't with DMC so much as it's that we allow stuff like this to go through based on like, one measly statement. But I understand that's a wiki sitewide policy change and thus I can't really argue against it here.
To my understanding, 9D comes from the one statement in PoC about 9D souls. Since all souls come from the demon world, it is then assumed that it is 9D. The reason for the dimensions being legitimate is because it is a fully sized realm that dwarfs human world in scope prior to applying a dimensional number to it.
Ultima approved the original 1-C thread based on the above. So if you're trying to downgrade DMC, you have to debunk the above. Me personally, my gripe isn't with DMC so much as it's that we allow stuff like this to go through based on like, one measly statement. But I understand that's a wiki sitewide policy change and thus I can't really argue against it here.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Ah, nvm. It'd be derailing here but I'll try to remember to post it to your wall later.
I mean, the obvious issue is that souls can still exist in the human world, which definitely isn't 9D, so it's not like a realm has to be 9D to contain them.
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Except the realm is verbatim called HD, you may wanna read the scan again.
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Likely Low 1-C seems legit to me.
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This was already addressed. The realm isn't merely containing them, the 9D souls originate from and return to said realm which means said realm in question is 9D
Palito266
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Back on phone, i can't sleep so...
The point isn't that a realm can't contain it, in fact, a realm can actually contain higher dimensional objects that is objectively correct. BUT as i previously mentioned, a realm CANNOT create a higher dimensional object, only lesser dimensional ones or the ones with the same dimensionality.
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Yeah uh
I'll come back to this but I'll just say that the demon world "creating" 9D objects is not so vastly different from 9D objects existing in other realms. There is no reason why a 4D realm can suddenly hold 9 spatial axes, regardless of whether or not it's creating them.
I'll come back to this but I'll just say that the demon world "creating" 9D objects is not so vastly different from 9D objects existing in other realms. There is no reason why a 4D realm can suddenly hold 9 spatial axes, regardless of whether or not it's creating them.
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That's kinda a Tiering System issue and not a DMC issue.
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Except it isn't just called a realm, but a higher dimensional one. Literally in the same sentence as 9D.
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Six pages and only ovens understood what I was trying to say... lol
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This notion doesn't matter when the realm it's referring to is called a higher dimension. That is unquestionable.
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