Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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Is this supposed to be blank or-The translations redreaper posted:
The context itself:
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Is this supposed to be blank or-The translations redreaper posted:
The context itself:
You posted arguments that the majority seem to think are in bad faith or disingenuous. Perhaps you aren't lying or whatever but when your best argument is seemingly the 4th option of an MTL, I can see how it'd come off as that.There is a difference between disagreeing and outright accusing me of lying and manipulating information or even silencing the opposing party. I can deal with the former. The latter is a lot more annoying to handle.
The Ray of Light IS THE HUMAN WORLD, Fujiwara, what the hell are you saying?Two statements of two things existing is not comparing them, KLOL. Unending darkness exists. A ray of light exists (which, may I remind you, we are never given the size of this ray of light so a comparison is quite literally impossible). That is what we are told, and they are not compared; No "the HW is merely a ray of light compared to the infinite DW", nothing. You are extrapolating information that isn't there.
Are you seriousIs this supposed to be blank or-
The MTL was used to show that "light" can be used in a metaphorical sense, representing hope or goodness. This is because the basis of tier 1 DMC is heavily founded upon the idea that the "ray of light" statement is meant to be taken at it's absolute most literal.You posted arguments that the majority seem to think are in bad faith or disingenuous. Perhaps you aren't lying or whatever but when your best argument is seemingly the 4th option of an MTL, I can see how it'd come off as that.
I never denied that. I just said they were never directly compared.The Ray of Light IS THE HUMAN WORLD, Fujiwara, what the hell are you saying?
"Darkness became the Demon World, Light became the Human World"
Not like it's easy for me to go back and check when I'm debating an 8v1 rnAre you serious
Ok fair enough, i'll post the stuff tmmr since it's late for me nowNot like it's easy for me to go back and check when I'm debating an 8v1 rn
This again? Literally just went through this with you a few comments ago.I never denied that. I just said they were never directly compared.
Like?I could also give an example from another verse to show how bad this line of logic is, but I would get accused of whataboutism so
Did you really expect the supporters to be absolute pushovers who just stand there and take it? Come on Fujiwara, you know better than that.Not like it's easy for me to go back and check when I'm debating an 8v1 rn
Sure, "can". What about it is metaphorical though? Is there a cosmological contradiction? A change to how the human and demon world are presented that goes against it? Anything?The MTL was used to show that "light" can be used in a metaphorical sense, representing hope or goodness. This is because the basis of tier 1 DMC is heavily founded upon the idea that the "ray of light" statement is meant to be taken at it's absolute most literal.
Sorry to intrude, but the text provided does not imply anything related to "Hope". Not even metaphorically speaking.The MTL was used to show that "light" can be used in a metaphorical sense, representing hope or goodness. This is because the basis of tier 1 DMC is heavily founded upon the idea that the "ray of light" statement is meant to be taken at it's absolute most literal.
The word "infinite/endless" directly refering to size, no offend but even me who have extremely bad skill in english know.Infinite/endless darkness
A beam/ray of light
The human world is the ray of light. It is also not directly compared to the demon world. This is not a hard concept to grasp.This again? Literally just went through this with you a few comments ago.
Fine.Like?
There are no cosmological contradictions to it being a metaphor, nor a change to the relationship between the human world and demon world (that I am aware of, at least). In a metaphorical sense, a ray of hope is somewhat self explanatory, though in this case it'd probably represent the ongoing plot of "demon hunters from the HW kick the shit out of demons from the DW" that DMC has.Sure, "can". What about it is metaphorical though? Is there a cosmological contradiction? A change to how the human and demon world are presented that goes against it? Anything?
光 can also be translated as hope, or at least it can within the context of that statement. This is something that would still make sense within context, or I at least have not been shown any evidence against that being the case.Sorry to intrude, but the text provided does not imply anything related to "Hope". Not even metaphorically speaking.
The character 光 is explicitly the one used to refer to "Light".
だが その世界にも一条の光が差し
The semantic changes provided by the translator are only viable when they relate to making sense of the overall phrase, but are unreliable when the characters do not match what is shown.
Now where the hell did I say that?Did you really expect the supporters to be absolute pushovers who just stand there and take it? Come on Fujiwara, you know better than that.
She's being rather calm, I think it's rather expected to be dejected however when dealing with this kind of back and forth with people.Could you just calm down? You’re always one comment off of blowing up this wiki and it’s not the first time this has been told to you.
You accuse others of lying yet start a nuclear meltdown when others do the same. The points just aren’t getting through to one another, so leave it to staff.
Ugh god, not this again.The human world is the ray of light. It is also not directly compared to the demon world. This is not a hard concept to grasp.
If Touhou had a similar statement to DMC with some additional supporting ones, I don't see why Touhou wouldn't qualify. Depends on Ultima's mood on that day tho. GoW got kicked in but KH didn't.Fine.
In Touhou, there is an "Outside World" that is the equivalent of our own universe; A low 2-C space with finite spatial extent. There is also Hell, which is a low 2-C space with infinite spatial extent. Now, these two locations are never directly compared, but this would make Hell infinitely larger than the Outside World and thus low 1-C following the same logic that DMC does. But of course, we don't accept that, and you know as good as I do that I'd get my ass beat for even trying to put that in a CRT, because we do not tier things like that.
Yeah no, that's not at all how the chain of events go down.There are no cosmological contradictions to it being a metaphor, nor a change to the relationship between the human world and demon world (that I am aware of, at least). In a metaphorical sense, a ray of hope is somewhat self explanatory, though in this case it'd probably represent the ongoing plot of "demon hunters from the HW kick the shit out of demons from the DW" that DMC has.
Once again, context is key, and this is one of those places where your interpretation would not work.光 can also be translated as hope, or at least it can within the context of that statement. This is something that would still make sense within context, or I at least have not been shown any evidence against that being the case.
It's honestly not a thing that needs to be said, but a thing that needs to be kept in mind when you go against a verse as big as this with plenty of devoted supporters on suicide watch 24/7 constantly looking for stuff for their verses.Now where the hell did I say that?
Bruh, who posted it?I think something we must consider is that someone posted how Demon shadows dwarf the human world. I'm surprised nobody brought up that scan.
Tony's postBruh, who posted it?
Yeah. I didn't realize just how bad it went until I actually started reading it for myself.Lmao you guys really spent 4 pages arguing about the ray of light bit when there's clear evidence that demons > the human world all this while?
Honestly I'd be down for "At least Low 1-C, possibly 1-C" even.Regardless, I'm still inclined to believe that based on Tony's post, Low 1-C is a bare minimum. My issue still stands that one singular line of 9D should not be taken at face value.
My guy, you can have two statements of things existing without them being directly compared. Why would we ever assume a comparison as the default? Especially when the comparison isn't even possible to make, as the HW isn't even given a defined size to be compared to.Ugh god, not this again.
Demon World is called unending darkness, immediately in the next line the ray of light that is eventually referred to as the Human World is mentioned.
I have no clue how you can dismiss this to be a direct comparison between the realms when this is how the sentences were made to demonstrate this.
That's ******* stupid and the example I gave is hilariously self-contradictory, so maybe this facet of the tiering system isn't really working as intended!If Touhou had a similar statement to DMC with some additional supporting ones, I don't see why Touhou wouldn't qualify. Depends on Ultima's mood on that day tho. GoW got kicked in but KH didn't.
Don't see how this debunks what I said.Yeah no, that's not at all how the chain of events go down.
HW was on the losing side when they came out, yet it also destabilized the DW due to the constant conflicts. Pluto had to ******* step in to separate them to preserve each other's existence.
HW is only strong as it is today because of Sparda. Without him, HW would be toast.
Is there though? The first scan is about humans not comprehending the reasons of demons, so not really a comparison in size/power (aside from the fact that the translation is hard to even read), and the second one also strikes me as odd because "I feel like I'm looking at infinity" isn't indicative of a higher-dimensional power gap. It'd be a high 3-A statement at its most generous, it seems.Lmao you guys really spent 4 pages arguing about the ray of light bit when there's clear evidence that demons > the human world all this while?
It is not even remotely similar, all possible meanings are related to the word "Light" and there are even pages that prove it.光 can also be translated as hope, or at least it can within the context of that statement. This is something that would still make sense within context, or I at least have not been shown any evidence against that being the case.
There is contexts, you just isolated statements and scans from each others and evaluated them, nothing gonna make sense if you did thisIs there though? The first scan is about humans not comprehending the reasons of demons, so not really a comparison in size/power (aside from the fact that the translation is hard to even read), and the second one also strikes me as odd because "I feel like I'm looking at infinity" isn't indicative of a higher-dimensional power gap. It'd be a high 3-A statement at its most generous, it seems.
Except the sentence isn't prefaced that way in the first place, thus completely decimating your argument against it.My guy, you can have two statements of things existing without them being directly compared. Why would we ever assume a comparison as the default? Especially when the comparison isn't even possible to make, as the HW isn't even given a defined size to be compared to.
Oh? What are the contradictions? Care to explain them?That's ******* stupid and the example I gave is hilariously self-contradictory, so maybe this facet of the tiering system isn't really working as intended!
Debunks your part about superiority stuff.Don't see how this debunks what I said.
Elizhaa I can't find any note of. But I'll try tagging again regardless.At this point, I will say your personal opinion is noted Fuji.
and just wait for staff.
Elizhaa, Ultima and DDM would be be welcome to comment here. Since they have dealt with this before.
Ovens already said his opinion.
No, I meant contradictions to my own example, not DMC.Oh? What are the contradictions? Care to explain them?
As for the other part whether you can get verses to qualify, it ultimately depends on bias towards or against it.
This is literally all the context I was given. Take it up with @Tony_di_bugalu, since he's the one who originally posted them.There is contexts, you just isolated statements and scans from each others and evaluated them, nothing gonna make sense if you did this
Yeah, that's what I meant, I wasn't talking about DMC.No, I meant contradictions to my own example, not DMC.
Ah, nvm. It'd be derailing here but I'll try to remember to post it to your wall later.Yeah, that's what I meant, I wasn't talking about DMC.
I mean, the obvious issue is that souls can still exist in the human world, which definitely isn't 9D, so it's not like a realm has to be 9D to contain them.Ok so, I've reread Tony's statement and consulted Ultima about it.
To my understanding, 9D comes from the one statement in PoC about 9D souls. Since all souls come from the demon world, it is then assumed that it is 9D. The reason for the dimensions being legitimate is because it is a fully sized realm that dwarfs human world in scope prior to applying a dimensional number to it.
Ultima approved the original 1-C thread based on the above. So if you're trying to downgrade DMC, you have to debunk the above.
Except the realm is verbatim called HD, you may wanna read the scan again.I mean, the obvious issue is that souls can still exist in the human world, which definitely isn't 9D, so it's not like a realm has to be 9D to contain them.
This was already addressed. The realm isn't merely containing them, the 9D souls originate from and return to said realm which means said realm in question is 9DI mean, the obvious issue is that souls can still exist in the human world, which definitely isn't 9D, so it's not like a realm has to be 9D to contain them.
Back on phone, i can't sleep so...I mean, the obvious issue is that souls can still exist in the human world, which definitely isn't 9D, so it's not like a realm has to be 9D to contain them.
That's kinda a Tiering System issue and not a DMC issue.Yeah uh
I'll come back to this but I'll just say that the demon world "creating" 9D objects is not so vastly different from 9D objects existing in other realms. There is no reason why a 4D realm can suddenly hold 9 spatial axes, regardless of whether or not it's creating them.
Ok so, I've reread Tony's statement and consulted Ultima about it.
To my understanding, 9D comes from the one statement in PoC about 9D souls. Since all souls come from the demon world, it is then assumed that it is 9D. The reason for the dimensions being legitimate is because it is a fully sized realm that dwarfs human world in scope prior to applying a dimensional number to it.
Ultima approved the original 1-C thread based on the above. So if you're trying to downgrade DMC, you have to debunk the above. Me personally, my gripe isn't with DMC so much as it's that we allow stuff like this to go through based on like, one measly statement. But I understand that's a wiki sitewide policy change and thus I can't really argue against it here.
This notion doesn't matter when the realm it's referring to is called a higher dimension. That is unquestionable.Yeah uh
I'll come back to this but I'll just say that the demon world "creating" 9D objects is not so vastly different from 9D objects existing in other realms. There is no reason why a 4D realm can suddenly hold 9 spatial axes, regardless of whether or not it's creating them