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DMC Downgrades (the ones everyone expected)

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There is a difference between disagreeing and outright accusing me of lying and manipulating information or even silencing the opposing party. I can deal with the former. The latter is a lot more annoying to handle.
You posted arguments that the majority seem to think are in bad faith or disingenuous. Perhaps you aren't lying or whatever but when your best argument is seemingly the 4th option of an MTL, I can see how it'd come off as that.
 
Two statements of two things existing is not comparing them, KLOL. Unending darkness exists. A ray of light exists (which, may I remind you, we are never given the size of this ray of light so a comparison is quite literally impossible). That is what we are told, and they are not compared; No "the HW is merely a ray of light compared to the infinite DW", nothing. You are extrapolating information that isn't there.
The Ray of Light IS THE HUMAN WORLD, Fujiwara, what the hell are you saying?

"Darkness became the Demon World, Light became the Human World"
 
You posted arguments that the majority seem to think are in bad faith or disingenuous. Perhaps you aren't lying or whatever but when your best argument is seemingly the 4th option of an MTL, I can see how it'd come off as that.
The MTL was used to show that "light" can be used in a metaphorical sense, representing hope or goodness. This is because the basis of tier 1 DMC is heavily founded upon the idea that the "ray of light" statement is meant to be taken at it's absolute most literal.

The Ray of Light IS THE HUMAN WORLD, Fujiwara, what the hell are you saying?

"Darkness became the Demon World, Light became the Human World"
I never denied that. I just said they were never directly compared.

I could also give an example from another verse to show how bad this line of logic is, but I would get accused of whataboutism so 🤷

Are you serious
Not like it's easy for me to go back and check when I'm debating an 8v1 rn
 
I never denied that. I just said they were never directly compared.
This again? Literally just went through this with you a few comments ago.

I could also give an example from another verse to show how bad this line of logic is, but I would get accused of whataboutism so 🤷
Like?

Not like it's easy for me to go back and check when I'm debating an 8v1 rn
Did you really expect the supporters to be absolute pushovers who just stand there and take it? Come on Fujiwara, you know better than that.
 
The MTL was used to show that "light" can be used in a metaphorical sense, representing hope or goodness. This is because the basis of tier 1 DMC is heavily founded upon the idea that the "ray of light" statement is meant to be taken at it's absolute most literal.
Sure, "can". What about it is metaphorical though? Is there a cosmological contradiction? A change to how the human and demon world are presented that goes against it? Anything?
 
The MTL was used to show that "light" can be used in a metaphorical sense, representing hope or goodness. This is because the basis of tier 1 DMC is heavily founded upon the idea that the "ray of light" statement is meant to be taken at it's absolute most literal.
Sorry to intrude, but the text provided does not imply anything related to "Hope". Not even metaphorically speaking.
The character 光 is explicitly the one used to refer to "Light".
だが その世界にも一条のが差し
The semantic changes provided by the translator are only viable when they relate to making sense of the overall phrase, but are unreliable when the characters do not match what is shown.
 
Infinite/endless darkness

A beam/ray of light
The word "infinite/endless" directly refering to size, no offend but even me who have extremely bad skill in english know.

The later say beam/ray of light, obviously a ray/beam compare to endless/infinite darkness. The context itself is extremely direct

And if you don't mind, you can ask Gelium come here to discuss this matter, because from the discord screenshot you posted said: i don't see anything talking about their size directly, not explicit. So what he mean is
1. It is his personal thought on the scan, not a fact
2. He said "not directly, not explicit" doesn't invalidated the scan because not everything needed to be namedrop, told specifically, things can be conveyed via contexts. Japanese is a heavily contextual language
 
This again? Literally just went through this with you a few comments ago.
The human world is the ray of light. It is also not directly compared to the demon world. This is not a hard concept to grasp.

Fine.
In Touhou, there is an "Outside World" that is the equivalent of our own universe; A low 2-C space with finite spatial extent. There is also Hell, which is a low 2-C space with infinite spatial extent. Now, these two locations are never directly compared, but this would make Hell infinitely larger than the Outside World and thus low 1-C following the same logic that DMC does. But of course, we don't accept that, and you know as good as I do that I'd get my ass beat for even trying to put that in a CRT, because we do not tier things like that.

Sure, "can". What about it is metaphorical though? Is there a cosmological contradiction? A change to how the human and demon world are presented that goes against it? Anything?
There are no cosmological contradictions to it being a metaphor, nor a change to the relationship between the human world and demon world (that I am aware of, at least). In a metaphorical sense, a ray of hope is somewhat self explanatory, though in this case it'd probably represent the ongoing plot of "demon hunters from the HW kick the shit out of demons from the DW" that DMC has.

Sorry to intrude, but the text provided does not imply anything related to "Hope". Not even metaphorically speaking.
The character 光 is explicitly the one used to refer to "Light".
だが その世界にも一条のが差し
The semantic changes provided by the translator are only viable when they relate to making sense of the overall phrase, but are unreliable when the characters do not match what is shown.
光 can also be translated as hope, or at least it can within the context of that statement. This is something that would still make sense within context, or I at least have not been shown any evidence against that being the case.

Did you really expect the supporters to be absolute pushovers who just stand there and take it? Come on Fujiwara, you know better than that.
Now where the hell did I say that?
 
Could you just calm down? You’re always one comment off of blowing up this wiki and it’s not the first time this has been told to you.

You accuse others of lying yet start a nuclear meltdown when others do the same. The points just aren’t getting through to one another, so leave it to staff.
She's being rather calm, I think it's rather expected to be dejected however when dealing with this kind of back and forth with people.

Less focus on who is and isn't calm though please, only serves to frustrate people more.
 
The human world is the ray of light. It is also not directly compared to the demon world. This is not a hard concept to grasp.
Ugh god, not this again.

Demon World is called unending darkness, immediately in the next line the ray of light that is eventually referred to as the Human World is mentioned.

I have no clue how you can dismiss this to be a direct comparison between the realms when this is how the sentences were made to demonstrate this.

Fine.
In Touhou, there is an "Outside World" that is the equivalent of our own universe; A low 2-C space with finite spatial extent. There is also Hell, which is a low 2-C space with infinite spatial extent. Now, these two locations are never directly compared, but this would make Hell infinitely larger than the Outside World and thus low 1-C following the same logic that DMC does. But of course, we don't accept that, and you know as good as I do that I'd get my ass beat for even trying to put that in a CRT, because we do not tier things like that.
If Touhou had a similar statement to DMC with some additional supporting ones, I don't see why Touhou wouldn't qualify. Depends on Ultima's mood on that day tho. GoW got kicked in but KH didn't.

There are no cosmological contradictions to it being a metaphor, nor a change to the relationship between the human world and demon world (that I am aware of, at least). In a metaphorical sense, a ray of hope is somewhat self explanatory, though in this case it'd probably represent the ongoing plot of "demon hunters from the HW kick the shit out of demons from the DW" that DMC has.
Yeah no, that's not at all how the chain of events go down.

HW was on the losing side when they came out, yet it also destabilized the DW due to the constant conflicts. Pluto had to ******* step in to separate them to preserve each other's existence.

HW is only strong as it is today because of Sparda. Without him, HW would be toast.

光 can also be translated as hope, or at least it can within the context of that statement. This is something that would still make sense within context, or I at least have not been shown any evidence against that being the case.
Once again, context is key, and this is one of those places where your interpretation would not work.

Now where the hell did I say that?
It's honestly not a thing that needs to be said, but a thing that needs to be kept in mind when you go against a verse as big as this with plenty of devoted supporters on suicide watch 24/7 constantly looking for stuff for their verses.
 
Lmao you guys really spent 4 pages arguing about the ray of light bit when there's clear evidence that demons > the human world all this while?

Regardless, I'm still inclined to believe that based on Tony's post, Low 1-C is a bare minimum. My issue still stands that one singular line of 9D should not be taken at face value.
 
Lmao you guys really spent 4 pages arguing about the ray of light bit when there's clear evidence that demons > the human world all this while?
Yeah. I didn't realize just how bad it went until I actually started reading it for myself.

Regardless, I'm still inclined to believe that based on Tony's post, Low 1-C is a bare minimum. My issue still stands that one singular line of 9D should not be taken at face value.
Honestly I'd be down for "At least Low 1-C, possibly 1-C" even.
 
Ugh god, not this again.

Demon World is called unending darkness, immediately in the next line the ray of light that is eventually referred to as the Human World is mentioned.

I have no clue how you can dismiss this to be a direct comparison between the realms when this is how the sentences were made to demonstrate this.
My guy, you can have two statements of things existing without them being directly compared. Why would we ever assume a comparison as the default? Especially when the comparison isn't even possible to make, as the HW isn't even given a defined size to be compared to.

If Touhou had a similar statement to DMC with some additional supporting ones, I don't see why Touhou wouldn't qualify. Depends on Ultima's mood on that day tho. GoW got kicked in but KH didn't.
That's ******* stupid and the example I gave is hilariously self-contradictory, so maybe this facet of the tiering system isn't really working as intended!

Yeah no, that's not at all how the chain of events go down.

HW was on the losing side when they came out, yet it also destabilized the DW due to the constant conflicts. Pluto had to ******* step in to separate them to preserve each other's existence.

HW is only strong as it is today because of Sparda. Without him, HW would be toast.
Don't see how this debunks what I said.

Lmao you guys really spent 4 pages arguing about the ray of light bit when there's clear evidence that demons > the human world all this while?
Is there though? The first scan is about humans not comprehending the reasons of demons, so not really a comparison in size/power (aside from the fact that the translation is hard to even read), and the second one also strikes me as odd because "I feel like I'm looking at infinity" isn't indicative of a higher-dimensional power gap. It'd be a high 3-A statement at its most generous, it seems.

Anyways, if Ovens has given his opinion (Yea on low 1-C, Nay on 1-C), then we should also probably call more staff here so we don't continue this indefinitely. As I said before, a "possibly low 1-C" is fine with me.
 
光 can also be translated as hope, or at least it can within the context of that statement. This is something that would still make sense within context, or I at least have not been shown any evidence against that being the case.
It is not even remotely similar, all possible meanings are related to the word "Light" and there are even pages that prove it.



Whereas the word "Hope" is spelled like this 希望 and is not present anywhere in the text in HW and DW.
The problem is that the focus here is on the translation and not on the original text. Nowhere is there a context for the meaning of 光 meaning "Light" to change to "Hope" when these two are not even remotely similar.
After all, there is a reason why the explicit meaning of each word is sought when translating Japanese texts.
 
Is there though? The first scan is about humans not comprehending the reasons of demons, so not really a comparison in size/power (aside from the fact that the translation is hard to even read), and the second one also strikes me as odd because "I feel like I'm looking at infinity" isn't indicative of a higher-dimensional power gap. It'd be a high 3-A statement at its most generous, it seems.
There is contexts, you just isolated statements and scans from each others and evaluated them, nothing gonna make sense if you did this
 
At this point, I will say your personal opinion is noted Fuji.

and just wait for staff.
Elizhaa, Ultima and DDM would be be welcome to comment here. Since they have dealt with this before.
Ovens already said his opinion.
 
My guy, you can have two statements of things existing without them being directly compared. Why would we ever assume a comparison as the default? Especially when the comparison isn't even possible to make, as the HW isn't even given a defined size to be compared to.
Except the sentence isn't prefaced that way in the first place, thus completely decimating your argument against it.

That's ******* stupid and the example I gave is hilariously self-contradictory, so maybe this facet of the tiering system isn't really working as intended!
Oh? What are the contradictions? Care to explain them?

As for the other part whether you can get verses to qualify, it ultimately depends on bias towards or against it.

Don't see how this debunks what I said.
Debunks your part about superiority stuff.
 
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Mav said she would comment on the low 1-C stuff later, so ping her too. As of now, Ovens, DDM, and Mav all agree with nuking 1-C, while ovens and DDM are fine with low 1-C.

Oh? What are the contradictions? Care to explain them?

As for the other part whether you can get verses to qualify, it ultimately depends on bias towards or against it.
No, I meant contradictions to my own example, not DMC.

There is contexts, you just isolated statements and scans from each others and evaluated them, nothing gonna make sense if you did this
This is literally all the context I was given. Take it up with @Tony_di_bugalu, since he's the one who originally posted them.

Anyways, I'm tired as hell, so I will be back here tomorrow. I stg we better not be on page 7 by the time I wake up.
 
Ok so, I've reread Tony's statement and consulted Ultima about it.

To my understanding, 9D comes from the one statement in PoC about 9D souls. Since all souls come from the demon world, it is then assumed that it is 9D. The reason for the dimensions being legitimate is because it is a fully sized realm that dwarfs human world in scope prior to applying a dimensional number to it.

Ultima approved the original 1-C thread based on the above. So if you're trying to downgrade DMC, you have to debunk the above. Me personally, my gripe isn't with DMC so much as it's that we allow stuff like this to go through based on like, one measly statement. But I understand that's a wiki sitewide policy change and thus I can't really argue against it here.
 
Yeah, that's what I meant, I wasn't talking about DMC.
Ah, nvm. It'd be derailing here but I'll try to remember to post it to your wall later.

Ok so, I've reread Tony's statement and consulted Ultima about it.

To my understanding, 9D comes from the one statement in PoC about 9D souls. Since all souls come from the demon world, it is then assumed that it is 9D. The reason for the dimensions being legitimate is because it is a fully sized realm that dwarfs human world in scope prior to applying a dimensional number to it.

Ultima approved the original 1-C thread based on the above. So if you're trying to downgrade DMC, you have to debunk the above.
I mean, the obvious issue is that souls can still exist in the human world, which definitely isn't 9D, so it's not like a realm has to be 9D to contain them.
 
I mean, the obvious issue is that souls can still exist in the human world, which definitely isn't 9D, so it's not like a realm has to be 9D to contain them.
Back on phone, i can't sleep so...
The point isn't that a realm can't contain it, in fact, a realm can actually contain higher dimensional objects that is objectively correct. BUT as i previously mentioned, a realm CANNOT create a higher dimensional object, only lesser dimensional ones or the ones with the same dimensionality.
 
This blog literally explains how 9D DMC is no joke
 
Yeah uh

I'll come back to this but I'll just say that the demon world "creating" 9D objects is not so vastly different from 9D objects existing in other realms. There is no reason why a 4D realm can suddenly hold 9 spatial axes, regardless of whether or not it's creating them.
 
Yeah uh

I'll come back to this but I'll just say that the demon world "creating" 9D objects is not so vastly different from 9D objects existing in other realms. There is no reason why a 4D realm can suddenly hold 9 spatial axes, regardless of whether or not it's creating them.
That's kinda a Tiering System issue and not a DMC issue.
 
Six pages and only ovens understood what I was trying to say... lol
Ok so, I've reread Tony's statement and consulted Ultima about it.

To my understanding, 9D comes from the one statement in PoC about 9D souls. Since all souls come from the demon world, it is then assumed that it is 9D. The reason for the dimensions being legitimate is because it is a fully sized realm that dwarfs human world in scope prior to applying a dimensional number to it.

Ultima approved the original 1-C thread based on the above. So if you're trying to downgrade DMC, you have to debunk the above. Me personally, my gripe isn't with DMC so much as it's that we allow stuff like this to go through based on like, one measly statement. But I understand that's a wiki sitewide policy change and thus I can't really argue against it here.
 
Yeah uh

I'll come back to this but I'll just say that the demon world "creating" 9D objects is not so vastly different from 9D objects existing in other realms. There is no reason why a 4D realm can suddenly hold 9 spatial axes, regardless of whether or not it's creating them
This notion doesn't matter when the realm it's referring to is called a higher dimension. That is unquestionable.
 
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