DMC Downgrades (the ones everyone expected)

[Random-Helper323]

nah it's probably because of ppl like you spreading unnecessary toxicity in these threads. if all you're gonna contribute here is calling ppl "wankers" then please stop commenting for the good of everyone involved

Agreed strongly with this. Goku vs Superman didn't become banned because people were inflating stats, but because people were attacking each other and causing trouble. And I can say from experience, haters are usually more toxic than fans.

 

[Transcending]

Just stating here that a Low 2-C structure, which the human world is at the very least, is by default infinite (temporally). Even if you say the unending darkness doesn't prove the Demon World is infinite, the scan is pretty explicit on it being larger than the human world. Being larger than a Low 2-C structure, that is, being larger than a level of infinity, would require you to be at the next level of infinity- Low 1-C.

I somewhat confirmed this with @Wokistan too, I can post the scan if anyone needs.

 

[RedReaper616]

Just stating here that a Low 2-C structure, which the human world is at the very least, is by default infinite (temporally). Even if you say the unending darkness doesn't prove the Demon World is infinite, the scan is pretty explicit on it being larger than the human world. Being larger than a Low 2-C structure, that is, being larger than a level of infinity, would require you to be at the next level of infinity- Low 1-C.

I somewhat confirmed this with @Wokistan too, I can post the scan if anyone needs.

Please do, for further reference in the thread.

 

[Robo432343]

disagree with the downgrade fra honestly

 

[Random-Helper323]

Please do, for further reference in the thread.

Seconded.

Just stating here that a Low 2-C structure, which the human world is at the very least, is by default infinite (temporally). Even if you say the unending darkness doesn't prove the Demon World is infinite, the scan is pretty explicit on it being larger than the human world. Being larger than a Low 2-C structure, that is, being larger than a level of infinity, would require you to be at the next level of infinity- Low 1-C.

I somewhat confirmed this with @Wokistan too, I can post the scan if anyone needs.

Yes, it's best you do provide it, if you please.

 

[Transcending]

Please do, for further reference in the thread.

Seconded.

Yes, it's best you do provide it, if you please.

 

[RedReaper616]

I also want to point out that the Darkness being infinite isn’t flavor text, or just a sketchy localization. The RAWs, official TL, and Fan TL by Red, and the Devil’s Lair TL, all share the same line, with the very Kanji being “Infinite/Endless Darkness,” or “果てなき闇.”

 

[chosen]

@Theglassman12 @GilverTheProtoAngelo @Mister6ame6 @Sevil Natas @Lightning_XXI @Oliver_de_jesus @Cyberblader90 @RedReaper @DarkGrath @Abstractions @Dienomite22 @Galens @Thehunter077 @Tony_di_bugalu @EFÍTÉ @Palito266 @Deadguy IT HAS BEGUN

Bro called the avengers

 

[Gasper]

Infinite structure containing finite or Infinite structure is literally 2-C

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Infinite structure containing finite or Infinite structure is literally 2-C

Not 2C if the overarching structure is verbatim called an nth higher dimension.

People taking individual points in vacuum and purposely ignoring entire context.

Many different peices of evidence come together to form the total picture.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Facts are as follows:

• Demon world contains multiple seperate flows of time within itself, including dimensions within it which have their own space-time continuum.

Cool. This isn't low 1-C.

• Demon world contains spaces which are infinite in scale in the case of Mundus' dimension, at least near that in the case of the mirror world, as small subsets of itself.

Mundus' dimension is infinitely expanding, not infinite. Yes, it can be both, but we don't assume infinite size by default, even if something is "infinitely expanding". Also not sure what you mean by "near infinite".

• Human world is likened to a single ray of light, while the demon world is referred to as an infinite darkness.

Cool. Unless we're told how big this ray of light is, we have no reason to assume an infinite size gap. The text doesn't even directly compare the two.

• Demon world is repeatedly and expressly stated to be higher dimensional.

Scans? Regardless, we don't hand out low 1-C from statements of higher dimensionality (I'm pretty sure Dragon Ball would've gotten low 1-C a looong time ago if we did).

• Souls are expressly stated to be 9-D.

• Those aforementioned 9-D souls are stated to originate from and return to a higher dimension upon death.

• Souls are repeatedly stated to go to the demon world upon death.

I never contested any of this, and none of this proves qualitative superiority.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Infinite structure containing finite or Infinite structure is literally 2-C

This is a structure repeatedly stated to be higher dimensional, which is also the place 9-D souls originate from and return to, and which contains multiple infinite structures and structures with their own timelines.

 

[Gasper]

Not 2C if the overarching structure is verbatim called an nth higher dimension.

People taking individual points in vacuum and purposely ignoring entire context.

Many different peices of evidence come together to form the total picture.

Spatial Dimension by itself is never infinitely greater than the lower one by default. That's literally the reason way DC is getting downgraded.
Also, Dimension being called infinite dosen't mean it's unreachable or inaccessible to the lower Dimension.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Doesn't the last sentence imply that the smaller space not being infinite would disqualify it? Nice job shooting yourself in the foot.

This is a structure repeatedly stated to be higher dimensional, which is also the place 9-D souls originate from and return to, and which contains multiple infinite structures and structures with their own timelines.

You keep saying "repeatedly", so I'd like to see these statements if they're so consistent.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Cool. This isn't low 1-C.


Mundus' dimension is infinitely expanding, not infinite. Yes, it can be both, but we don't assume infinite size by default, even if something is "infinitely expanding". Also not sure what you mean by "near infinite".


Cool. Unless we're told how big this ray of light is, we have no reason to assume an infinite size gap. The text doesn't even directly compare the two.


Scans? Regardless, we don't hand out low 1-C from statements of higher dimensionality (I'm pretty sure Dragon Ball would've gotten low 1-C a looong time ago if we did).


I never contested any of this, and none of this proves qualitative superiority.

We don't need to know the exact size of the ray of light. We just know it is insignificant against the vastness of the demon world, which is adequate.

It's the same as a world being comparable to an atom in the presence of another. There doesn't need to be a statement of "Infinitely larger" because that's already implicit.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

That event has multiple different parts embedded into it.
If you read further in the manga it is explained that due to different nature's of the world there was Chaos on both sides and humans suffered a lot when Heaven raged on it. Well establishing that universe was already in a pretty modern state with existence of human even before the split.
To prevent chaos from consuming both world and getting torn apart, World of Light was seperated from World of Darkness by Dark Horned Demon Lord with his spear.

If the Human World was a ray of light before the separation, then we don't know what it looks like after the seal/separation.

Your logic has no relevence to what we use for manga. I don't know where you are getting contradiction from, when nature of comparison is completely different.

In manga the size comparison is made between World of Light and World of Darkness.

PoC says World of Darknes is split in half, it gives no comparison between World of Light and World of Darkness.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

The manga size comparison is before the separation.

PoC doesn't say "World of Darkness", and the context doesn't refer to the Demon World specifically. It just says "World", and per the manga the word without a modifier refers to the entire world.

Also, something infinitesimal compared to the Demon World wouldn't split it in half; it would be engulfed and surrounded by it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

We don't need to know the exact size of the ray of light. We just know it is insignificant against the vastness of the demon world, which is adequate.

It's the same as a world being comparable to an atom in the presence of another. There doesn't need to be a statement of "Infinitely larger" because that's already implicit.

Where the **** is that stated. What are any of you talking about.

It being called a ray of light does not imply any given size, or a size comparison, or anything similar. It doesn't say it's insignificant against the demon world. The text just plainly does not say what any of you are claiming it says. I feel like I'm losing my mind over here.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Cool. This isn't low 1-C.


Mundus' dimension is infinitely expanding, not infinite. Yes, it can be both, but we don't assume infinite size by default, even if something is "infinitely expanding". Also not sure what you mean by "near infinite".


Cool. Unless we're told how big this ray of light is, we have no reason to assume an infinite size gap. The text doesn't even directly compare the two.


Scans? Regardless, we don't hand out low 1-C from statements of higher dimensionality (I'm pretty sure Dragon Ball would've gotten low 1-C a looong time ago if we did).


I never contested any of this, and none of this proves qualitative superiority.

This is the problem. You think you're addressing all of it, but these facts come together to form a whole, and you've dismissed them individually rather than putting them together to get the full picture. Demon world is stated to be higher dimensional and is the origin of 9-D souls, and can verifiably contain Low 2-C structures within itself.

The scans you ask for are elsewhere in this thread, and are linked to the verse page.

 

[Gasper]

We don't need to know the exact size of the ray of light. We just know it is insignificant against the vastness of the demon world, which is adequate.

It's the same as a world being comparable to an atom in the presence of another. There doesn't need to be a statement of "Infinitely larger" because that's already implicit.

Yes we absolutely do. Atom comparable to entire universe for example isn't inaccessible gap, the exact thing we need.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

This is the problem. You think you're addressing all of it, but these facts come together to form a whole, and you've dismissed them individually rather than putting them together to get the full picture. Demon world is stated to be higher dimensional and is the origin of 9-D souls, and can verifiably contain Low 2-C structures within itself.

If one of those statements is invalid, then the structure of the entire argument falls apart. If the ray of light thing doesn't translate to higher dimensionality, then 9D scaling doesn't work. If the demon world isn't actually infinitely superior to low 2-C spaces, then it can't be a 1-C space, you get the idea. These arguments feed into each other, so one of them being flat out wrong makes the others less reliable.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yes we absolutely do. Atom comparable to entire universe for example isn't inaccessible gap, the exact thing we need.

Yeah, this. The gap could be very large, or countably finite, but we have been given nothing indicating an uncounatbly infinite gap.

 

[Gasper]

This is the problem. You think you're addressing all of it, but these facts come together to form a whole, and you've dismissed them individually rather than putting them together to get the full picture. Demon world is stated to be higher dimensional and is the origin of 9-D souls, and can verifiably contain Low 2-C structures within itself.

The scans you ask for are elsewhere in this thread, and are linked to the verse page.

Even though non of those points state superiority between dimensions?

 

[Random-Helper323]

Doesn't the last sentence imply that the smaller space not being infinite would disqualify it? Nice job shooting yourself in the foot.

The human world is a universe. So is Mundus' dimension. Honestly, the mirror world likely would be too.

You keep saying "repeatedly", so I'd like to see these statements if they're so consistent.

Maybe you should have read into all of the information.

 

[Gasper]

The human world is a universe. So is Mundus' dimension. Honestly, the mirror world likely would be too.

Maybe you should have read into all of the information.

Likely dosen't cut it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The human world is a universe. So is Mundus' dimension. Honestly, the mirror world likely would be too.

Are they infinite though? I'm well aware of them being universes.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

If the Human World was a ray of light before the separation, then we don't know what it looks like after the seal/separation.

Then you need to read the manga further and supplementary material.
You'll find plenty of sentences calling HW world of light even after seperation.
You are the only one tossing up conjectures here. Not us.

The manga size comparison is before the separation.

PoC doesn't say "World of Darkness", and the context doesn't refer to the Demon World specifically. It just says "World", and per the manga the word without a modifier refers to the entire world.

Also, something infinitesimal compared to the Demon World wouldn't split it in half; it would be engulfed and surrounded by it.

Good thing Demon World encompassed Human World for a loooooong time.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Likely dosen't cut it.

And you're doing it again. The human world and Mundus' dimension were both universes contained within the demon world, and you ignore that to be sassy about my wording about the mirror world which is a copy of the human world, literally a mirror of it.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

alright let's do this. first of all "a basic 9 dimensional form" is pretty much describing its shape or geometry. that is infact an indication of higher dimensionality. and i dont know the context of these "examples" you bring up, so please instead of ranting, back them up with their sources and the exact reasons of why there were denied. also there doesnt need to be evidence of qualitative superiority for something to be considered Higher dimensional. i'll get to this later

second. "a higher dimension beyond the eightfold path" phrase isnt meaningless. it describes the place of where souls originate from. "the eightfold path" could mean anything in the context of this verse. as Buddhist terms in DMC are often used to name objects. take the samsara in DMC 3 for example. samsara is the cycle of life & death buddhism yet in DMC it is a key needed to advance in a mission (nirvana is also another example which was mentioned above). the eightfold path could be a realm or a series of realms. that fits with how it is described in this statement. what we care about here however is the "higher dimension" as it's the place where these souls originate from. so we know that they have a 9 dimensional shape or a form. which means they have 9 coordinate spaces and that they originate from a higher dimension. the statement couldnt be anymore clear in that translation.

and yeah i know that isnt enough to qualify for tier 1 thats literally the reason why not everyone with soul manip scales to 1-C. what you dont understand is. the fact that just because something being referred to as higher dimensional doesnt qualify for tier 1 off the bat doesn't mean it isnt higher dimensional or it's fake higher dimensional.

also this is bogus. it is a comparison. the ray of light of the human world against the endless darkness that is the demon world.

this response isnt good either. the statement goes as follows "Unending darkness. A crucible of chaos. But even to that primordial existence there came a ray of light. The universe was eventually split in two. The darkness became the realm of demons... and the light became the domain of mortals." yeah there is a direct comparison here. as it is saying to that primordial existence (the demon world) there came a spec or a ray of light IE to this unending darkness there came a ray of light

also that's not even the main point. the main point is that the demon realm is holding a tier 2 thing as a subset of itself which it did here. whilst being 9 dimensional. that qualifies according the FAQ

and that's not the only thing that makes the demon world tier 1. the fact that it's infinite sized and it has 9 dimensions. that's also a standard for qualifying though i dont exactly know why(smth about N measures agnaa said) but to my knowledge it still exists. we had a conversation about all that shit here
so yeah there doesnt need to be "qualitative superiority" or some shit like that when we're trying to prove higher dimensions are tier 1 just that they're of significant size. **** DT only said it needed to be as large as the observable universe while agnaa said it needed to be infinite initially

they said there were gonna change all the standards above. and they still didnt as far as i am aware
so i came up with another way to make the verse 1-C in preparation for that but i wont go there yet unless you can properly refute the other 2.

also i want to address smth a bit unrelated

nah it's probably because of ppl like you spreading unnecessary toxicity in these threads. if all you're gonna contribute here is calling ppl "wankers" then please stop commenting for the good of everyone involved

You guys ignored this

 

[Gasper]

And you're doing it again. The human world and Mundus' dimension were both universes contained within the demon world, and you ignore that to be sassy about my wording about the mirror world which is a copy of the human world, literally a mirror of it.

Ok, one universe (demon world) contains multiple low 2-C constructs within itself and is unreachable to any of them, right? If so, that's just 2-A.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Are they infinite though? I'm well aware of them being universes.

The real life universe is infinite, the human world is the real life universe represented, Mundus' dimension is stated to be infinitely expanding which actually denotes infinite size, and the director said it was the same size as the real life universe.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

You guys ignored this

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara @Gasper

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I also want to point out that the Darkness being infinite isn’t flavor text, or just a sketchy localization. The RAWs, official TL, and Fan TL by Red, and the Devil’s Lair TL, all share the same line, with the very Kanji being “Infinite/Endless Darkness,” or “果てなき闇.”

I could be wrong, but on this wiki "endless" ≠ "infinite" ? I don't know anything about DMC, I just want to ask this and throw some fuel on the fire.

 

[Gasper]

The real life universe is infinite, the human world is the real life universe represented, Mundus' dimension is stated to be infinitely expanding which actually denotes infinite size, and the director said it was the same size as the real life universe.

Real life universe isn't infinite. That's just a theory. There are alot of verses in fiction that have the same statements and we don't use them that way.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Ok, one universe (demon world) contains multiple low 2-C constructs within itself, right? If so, that's just 2-A.

Nice, but you're now focusing on this while ignoring the fact that the demon world is stated to be higher dimensional (you keep accusing me of lying even though this is linked to the verse page) and is the origin of 9-D souls. You've been doing that a lot here, focusing on individual pieces of information and acting as if they're in a vacuum.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

alright let's do this. first of all "a basic 9 dimensional form" is pretty much describing its shape or geometry. that is infact an indication of higher dimensionality. and i dont know the context of these "examples" you bring up, so please instead of ranting, back them up with their sources and the exact reasons of why there were denied. also there doesnt need to be evidence of qualitative superiority for something to be considered Higher dimensional. i'll get to this later

second. "a higher dimension beyond the eightfold path" phrase isnt meaningless. it describes the place of where souls originate from. "the eightfold path" could mean anything in the context of this verse. as Buddhist terms in DMC are often used to name objects. take the samsara in DMC 3 for example. samsara is the cycle of life & death buddhism yet in DMC it is a key needed to advance in a mission (nirvana is also another example which was mentioned above). the eightfold path could be a realm or a series of realms. that fits with how it is described in this statement. what we care about here however is the "higher dimension" as it's the place where these souls originate from. so we know that they have a 9 dimensional shape or a form. which means they have 9 coordinate spaces and that they originate from a higher dimension. the statement couldnt be anymore clear in that translation.

and yeah i know that isnt enough to qualify for tier 1 thats literally the reason why not everyone with soul manip scales to 1-C. what you dont understand is. the fact that just because something being referred to as higher dimensional doesnt qualify for tier 1 off the bat doesn't mean it isnt higher dimensional or it's fake higher dimensional.

also this is bogus. it is a comparison. the ray of light of the human world against the endless darkness that is the demon world.

this response isnt good either. the statement goes as follows "Unending darkness. A crucible of chaos. But even to that primordial existence there came a ray of light. The universe was eventually split in two. The darkness became the realm of demons... and the light became the domain of mortals." yeah there is a direct comparison here. as it is saying to that primordial existence (the demon world) there came a spec or a ray of light IE to this unending darkness there came a ray of light

also that's not even the main point. the main point is that the demon realm is holding a tier 2 thing as a subset of itself which it did here. whilst being 9 dimensional. that qualifies according the FAQ

and that's not the only thing that makes the demon world tier 1. the fact that it's infinite sized and it has 9 dimensions. that's also a standard for qualifying though i dont exactly know why(smth about N measures agnaa said) but to my knowledge it still exists. we had a conversation about all that shit here
so yeah there doesnt need to be "qualitative superiority" or some shit like that when we're trying to prove higher dimensions are tier 1 just that they're of significant size. **** DT only said it needed to be as large as the observable universe while agnaa said it needed to be infinite initially

they said there were gonna change all the standards above. and they still didnt as far as i am aware
so i came up with another way to make the verse 1-C in preparation for that but i wont go there yet unless you can properly refute the other 2.

also i want to address smth a bit unrelated

nah it's probably because of ppl like you spreading unnecessary toxicity in these threads. if all you're gonna contribute here is calling ppl "wankers" then please stop commenting for the good of everyone involved

@Gasper

Ehem

 

[Gasper]

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara @Gasper

I know 0 things about this verse, but i know how dimensional tiering works, and what's being represented here isn't enough imp

 

[RedReaper616]

We don't need to know the exact size of the ray of light. We just know it is insignificant against the vastness of the demon world, which is adequate.

It's the same as a world being comparable to an atom in the presence of another. There doesn't need to be a statement of "Infinitely larger" because that's already implicit.

^ This exactly.

Bayonetta and KH follow the same principle, because the descriptions used illustrate the same example without being verbatim infinite.

Where the **** is that stated. What are any of you talking about.

It being called a ray of light does not imply any given size, or a size comparison, or anything similar. It doesn't say it's insignificant against the demon world. The text just plainly does not say what any of you are claiming it says. I feel like I'm losing my mind over here.

Sevil literally quotes where the two are directly referenced against each other.

"Unending darkness. A crucible of chaos. But even to that primordial existence,”

This DIRECTLY refers to the Endless Darkness. The World BORN of Darkness. This same World that is repeatedly given infinite statements. (One of them being this very Manga). With two extra that are admittedly localizations.

“…there came a ray of light.”

To that PRIMORDIAL EXISTENCE, to that ENDLESS AND INFINITE DARKNESS, came a RAY. OF. LIGHT.

Let me emphasize the comparison words. “TO THAT.” According to the manga, TO THAT Endless Darkness, (which it describes as much before it compares them), the Human World was a Ray of Light.

We aren’t quoting something that isn’t there.

 

[RedReaper616]

I could be wrong, but on this wiki "endless" ≠ "infinite" ? I don't know anything about DMC, I just want to ask this and throw some fuel on the fire.

Depends on context, but it doesn’t matter because we have more infinite statements that you can read in my previous post.

 

[Gasper]

Nice, but you're now focusing on this while ignoring the fact that the demon world is stated to be higher dimensional (you keep accusing me of lying even though this is linked to the verse page) and is the origin of 9-D souls. You've been doing that a lot here, focusing on individual pieces of information and acting as if they're in a vacuum.

First of all: where did i accused you of lying?

Second of all: i already addressed your point about higher dimensions.

Spatial Dimension by itself is never infinitely greater than the lower one by default. That's literally the reason way DC is getting downgraded.
Also, Dimension being called infinite dosen't mean it's unreachable or inaccessible to the lower Dimension.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Then you need to read the manga further and supplementary material.
You'll find plenty of sentences calling HW world of light even after seperation.
You are the only one tossing up conjectures here. Not us.

Sure it is a World of Light. But what is its shape and size post seal/separation?
Saying that the Light splits the current DMC world in half is not conjecture.

Good thing Demon World encompassed Human World for a loooooong time.

There is a statement that the Demon World and Human World co-existed for a loooooong time after separation, and a statement that Mundus' invasion to merge the Demon World and Human World was devouring the light (meaning that there was more light after the separation than there originally was). But I am not aware of a citation for your statement.
Would appreciate a source.