DMC Downgrade #2: Hax Edition

[PrettyFearMachine]

Can I ask why our world being more advanced in terms of tech matters in regards to a supernatural verse such as DMC? (I'm not sure if that is even true t b h)

 

[Theglassman12]

@Firephoenixearl That's not what Occam's Razor means dude, Occam's Razor means the simplest answer is the best one. In any normal fight, regardless if it's a video game or not, there's absolute no reason whatsoever to assume that one character took absolutely no hits at all. You'd need to have any actual showings or legit statements that they avoided every single blow that anyone throws at them. Also:

whatever he was hit by that in a cutscene he went out of his way to block instead of tank

Literally the cutscene I showed you shows Dante had to tank that shot, he's not perfect when it comes to dodging every single hit from any foe. The fact he got hit proves that he can get hit during the fight, nothing else suggests otherwise. Especially when this is the same dude who gets pierced and stabbed by practically anyone regardless of whether or not they're as strong as him or weaker than him. This isn't something new to Dante.

How about you stop with moving the goalpost on this part of the discussion? Cause you literally asked when has Dante used them in cutscenes. I showed you a video where Dante shows off all of his new weapons in cutscenes. Bring a better argument than this cause at this point you're reaching for the most asinine arguments I've seen.

By not natural I'm talking about deconstructing things on that level via a laser beam you can fire. And Absolute Zero and Heat has nothing to do with this discussion when they have their own unique ways of affecting the molecules. Particle beams are not ice or literal heat, it's energy that targets the atoms and subatomic particles.

You clearly haven't been showing that when you're arguing Metal Gear doesn't count.

That doesn't debunk my point. What are you even trying to argue here? This doesn't change anything on my point at all cause he's perfectly fine during Sparda DT when he gets hit by them, and can survive a gigantic laser that engulfs his entire body.

Ok whatever you're trying to argue here doesn't make any sense cause I have no idea what you're saying here. Also stop with the insults right now. I'm giving you this one warning to actually address my point and not attack me. If you don't I will report you. Is that clear?

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

Can I ask why our world being more advanced in terms of tech matters in regards to a supernatural verse such as DMC? (I'm not sure if that is even true t b h)

This exactly, the discussion about tech in the real world has no relevance to the discussion

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That's not what Occam's Razor means dude, Occam's Razor means the simplest answer is the best one. In any normal fight, regardless if it's a video game or not, there's absolute no reason whatsoever to assume that one character took absolutely no hits at all. You'd need to have any actual showings or legit statements that they avoided every single blow that anyone throws at them. Also:
Literally the cutscene I showed you shows Dante had to tank that shot, he's not perfect when it comes to dodging every single hit from any foe. The fact he got hit proves that he can get hit during the fight, nothing else suggests otherwise. Especially when this is the same dude who gets pierced and stabbed by practically anyone regardless of whether or not they're as strong as him or weaker than him. This isn't something new to Dante.

Him getting hit by some quick small projectiles doesn't mean he'll also be hit by a giant ass lazer that moves slow af.

How about you stop with moving the goalpost on this part of the discussion? Cause you literally asked when has Dante used them in cutscenes. I showed you a video where Dante shows off all of his new weapons in cutscenes. Bring a better argument than this cause at this point you're reaching for the most asinine arguments I've seen.

Dude, he literally tests them. Are you that desperate to argue they're in character? Obviously he uses them when he first gets them. The issue is, it's not in character. But hey, if your level of reasoning boils down to "if he uses them once in his lifetime, it's in character" im gonna be sad. Cus at this point it's like saying "yeah x dude will absolutely wear that dress, he wore it once when he bought it to see if it fit him and has never worn it for the following 20y/o, he'll definitely show up with that".

And considering the argument was "weapons aren't in character cus gameplay doesn't count". I wouldn't say i am moving the goalpost. I feel like you're the one forgetting where it is instead.

By not natural I'm talking about deconstructing things on that level via a laser beam you can fire. And Absolute Zero and Heat has nothing to do with this discussion when they have their own unique ways of affecting the molecules. Particle beams are not ice or literal heat, it's energy that targets the atoms and subatomic particles.

Which is the same thing. Or do you not know that heat is a form of energy that affects the atoms?

You clearly haven't been showing that when you're arguing Metal Gear doesn't count.

Cus this is DMC, not gonna waste time with useless argument from other side and start discussing why dura neg from vibration is not matter manip. At this point let's give Ikki matter manip too, his sword is so sharp it can cut molecules. I hear the word molecule i say it's dura neg. Yeah this makes absolute total sense.

That doesn't debunk my point. What are you even trying to argue here? This doesn't change anything on my point at all cause he's perfectly fine during Sparda DT when he gets hit by them, and can survive a gigantic laser that engulfs his entire body.

He's...perfectly fine....after regenerating and not because of tanking them? Dude.....pls....

Ok whatever you're trying to argue here doesn't make any sense cause I have no idea what you're saying here. Also stop with the insults right now. I'm giving you this one warning to actually address my point and not attack me. If you don't I will report you. Is that clear?

This:

You don't control what the molecules do, not the beam.

is not addressing the point? Excuse me what?

 

[Theglassman12]

@Firephoenixearl Missed my point yet again. Dante has a habit of getting hit a lot, there's no reason to suggest he didn't get hit in that fight at all when the cutscenes proved it.

You blatantly admits that he used them in the cutscenes, that debunks your claim that he doesn't use them at all. Also false equivalency, a guy wearing a dress 20 years later is not the same as a guy getting multiple different abilities he uses in the span of a day in practically every game in the series. This argument is getting ridiculous and I refuse to answer it any further than this, since it's clearly gotten to the point you're not addressing Mundus at all with his attack in this argument.

Yeah, heat which causes the molecules to vibrate and move all over the place is totally the same as a weapon that literally breaks apart the atomic/molecular structure.

That's not the point, you're claiming it's only Durability Negation and nothing more when majority of characters in this entire site has durability negation in many different ways that they're not the exact same most of the time. Nothing different regarding Mundus' Particle Beam when he's using matter manipulation to negate durability, something that metal gear characters have thanks to their weapons. You wanna disregard the matter manipulation part and only say it's durability negation? Make an entire CRT to remove specific durability negation as a whole instead of DMC, cause that's what you're arguing at this point.

When did I ever say that Dante regenned from the particle beam? You're the only one who's claimed Dante regenned through it (and Twellas in a joke comment). Everything I've said regarding Dante surviving it is him withstanding the beams without having his atoms destroyed.

Your sentence makes no sense. Literally nothing in that entire sentence makes any sense and it sounds like a half finished sentence. What are you even trying to say by "you don't control what the molecules do, not the beam"

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Missed my point yet again. Dante has a habit of getting hit a lot, there's no reason to suggest he didn't get hit in that fight at all when the cutscenes proved it.

All the cutscenes didn't prove he got hit and the attack had no effect on him. The laser may have hit just his arm for example which he would have no issues regenerating. Can you prove it hit his whole body? Do you see the issue glass? You're going off of "we have no idea what happened but we can assume X happens which gives X ability". Which is a big no for several reasons. When you don't know what happened you don't know what happened.

You blatantly admits that he used them in the cutscenes, that debunks your claim that he doesn't use them at all. Also false equivalency, a guy wearing a dress 20 years later is not the same as a guy getting multiple different abilities he uses in the span of a day in practically every game in the series. This argument is getting ridiculous and I refuse to answer it any further than this, since it's clearly gotten to the point you're not addressing Mundus at all with his attack in this argument.

<Im gonna refuse to answer this any further
<After making the claim that "testing something for 30 seconds in a dozen hours of cutscenes means that thing is in character"
Yeah glass, you tried to back off in style, but at least you dropped this dumb point. I'll just be glad you stopped here and hopefully conceded, if you still say in vs threads that they are in character it's gonna be bad.

That's not the point, you're claiming it's only Durability Negation and nothing more when majority of characters in this entire site has durability negation in many different ways that they're not the exact same most of the time.

Yes because sometimes dura neg comes from an actual hax. For example someone like Ikki has dura neg as an extention of Causality Manip. It's not the same here, i'll explain below.

Nothing different regarding Mundus' Particle Beam when he's using matter manipulation to negate durability, something that metal gear characters have thanks to their weapons. You wanna disregard the matter manipulation part and only say it's durability negation? Make an entire CRT to remove specific durability negation as a whole instead of DMC, cause that's what you're arguing at this point.

Ok glass. First of all, the 1st one is not true. Mundus' particle beam doesn't dura neg via matter manip, it dura negs via adding energy. Let me ask though do you know that now "resistance to heat" is a specific type of durability? In other words you can hit a dude with 10k degrees of heat when he's tier 5 and he'd still be burned? In other words rn heat works in a similar fashion to dura neg cus it bypasses normal durability and instead affects "type".

Second of all there are forms of dura nneg that don't fall under anything , for example cutting atoms with sheer sharpness. That is just being sharp to the point where durability doesn't exist. It isn't anything else. So not all dura neg become matter manip if you hear the word atom cus then shit gets dumb in terms of application.

When did I ever say that Dante regenned from the particle beam? You're the only one who's claimed Dante regenned through it (and Twellas in a joke comment). Everything I've said regarding Dante surviving it is him withstanding the beams without having his atoms destroyed.

Wait we back to arguing gameplay scenes now? Even though i said that's not canon?

Your sentence makes no sense. Literally nothing in that entire sentence makes any sense and it sounds like a half finished sentence. What are you even trying to say by "you don't control what the molecules do, not the beam"

I said you can control the mean but you can't control what the molecules do.

 

[Theglassman12]

Did you bother reading what you said there? You told me you cannot use assumptions in games, but in the line right beforehand you contradicted your point by using an assumption, you can't go both ways here, can you for once give me a legitimate argument that's not based on assumptions? Cause at this point you're making massive assumptions on how the fight went instead of the most simplest way it happened.

Sure, good luck trying to argue that against any video game character who has an established character and mindset, it's not gonna end well for you.

Said "energy" literally breaks apart the bonds of molecules and atoms, that's not something normal energy would do, otherwise Dragon Ball would have this a long time ago. Ok, and that doesn't really have anything to do with the point here cause the particle beam is nowhere as comparable as heat, which vibrates the molecules all over the place instead of having them stuck in place. Also False Equivalence, being sharp to cut through anything is not the same as an energy shot that's stated to attack the molecules and atoms.

You never once explained why gameplay scenes are not canon though. If they're not canon, then how do you explain the chain of events that happened between cutscenes then? Cause they're literally the only way they explain the gaps between the previous cutscene and the last one.

That doesn't debunk my point at all that he's affecting the molecular bonds and separating them. That still counts as matter manipulation no matter how hard you argue.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Did you bother reading what you said there? You told me you cannot use assumptions in games, but in the line right beforehand you contradicted your point by using an assumption, you can't go both ways here, can you for once give me a legitimate argument that's not based on assumptions? Cause at this point you're making massive assumptions on how the fight went instead of the most simplest way it happened.

You really don't get the point of my "assumption" there? Smh. It's because you're making assumptions based on what happened, which is why i gave you other examples of what might have happened. You have no way to prove any of those are legit, it's all based on raw head canon. So basically the "his arm was hit" is an assumption just as valid as whatever you're making, but you cannot prove either of those. So in this case you're taking 1 over the other, based on nothing.

So im gonna have to use that same line straight back at you. Can you make a legitimate argument instead of being based on baseless assumptions you cannot prove?

Sure, good luck trying to argue that against any video game character who has an established character and mindset, it's not gonna end well for you.

I already have though? Or more like i didn't need to, cus people already don't treat them as in character. It still amazes me how you continue this point despite the fact that you're pretty much the only one who saying the "it's in character" and still act like you're right.

Whatever floats your boat mate.

Said "energy" literally breaks apart the bonds of molecules and atoms, that's not something normal energy would do

Depending on what the energy is, but what form of real life energy can you name that doesn't affect the molecules or atoms? I mean actual beams of energy. So name me some forms of energy beams irl that wouldn't affect atoms.

, otherwise Dragon Ball would have this a long time ago.

Bad argument. That's like saying "Relativistic KE doesn't exist otherwise LS characters would have infinite AP". If something clearly acts in some way it doesn't get any bonuses. In this case if said energy interacts with normal durability then it affects the normal durability. We don't expect fiction to always follow the real life rules.

Ok, and that doesn't really have anything to do with the point here cause the particle beam is nowhere as comparable as heat, which vibrates the molecules all over the place instead of having them stuck in place.

Can you rephrase this? I'm lost. Are you saying heat vibrates the entire thing whereas particle beams keep things in place?

Also why is does it have nothing to do with the point here? Heat can also destroy the molecular structure of things. Heat is matter manip too i guess. Cus im hearing "molecular structure" and "affects atoms" so it is absolutely matter manip, simple thinking FTW.

Also False Equivalence, being sharp to cut through anything is not the same as an energy shot that's stated to attack the molecules and atoms.

How is it false? Why does a sword that affects thing on an atomic level not the same as energy that affects things on an atomic level? Unless you're implying the only way to qualify for matter manip is to be energy.

You never once explained why gameplay scenes are not canon though. If they're not canon, then how do you explain the chain of events that happened between cutscenes then? Cause they're literally the only way they explain the gaps between the previous cutscene and the last one.

If they're canon how do you explain that i died 30 times to beowulf whereas Donguri didn't get touched the entire game? Hell if gameplay isn't canon then that time i finished 2nd boss fight vergil in DMC3 without getting hit at all would be reflected in the cutscenes. But in the cutscenes Dante is stated to be wounded and weak. How? I never got hit. And gameplay is canon.

And i love how instead of trying to prove they're canon you skipped it entirety and moved to "prove they're not canon". Kek.

That doesn't debunk my point at all that he's affecting the molecular bonds and separating them. That still counts as matter manipulation no matter how hard you argue.

Yes but he's not controlling the matter directly. He's applying energy which then affects the matter. Again no different from saying i have matter manip by boiling water. I control the temperature of the heater, it affects it down to the atoms and breaks it's atomic structure completely as it was turned from liquid to gas.

Somebody add Matter Manipulation to my profile next CRT.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Dude...Dante was hit PRETTY clearly. Like u can see he was hit in like chest and all so I don't see any problem. Unless we are seeing a completely different game or cutscene I'm pretty sure Dante got hit by those lasers on two occasions no less. Nothing exactly contradicts the matter manipulation as the articles already mentioned so unless u got smth without the its in the 70s so its outdated then there isn't anything wrong with mundus's particle beam

It is in-character as Dante does use his things in cutscenes. Testing them as he may have its not like he won't use them.

I'm pretty sure affecting atoms and molecular bonds falls under matter manipulation...

If they're canon how do you explain that i died 30 times to beowulf whereas Donguri didn't get touched the entire game? Hell if gameplay isn't canon then that time i finished 2nd boss fight vergil in DMC3 without getting hit at all would be reflected in the cutscenes. But in the cutscenes Dante is stated to be wounded and weak. How? I never got hit. And gameplay is canon.

what does this even mean??? Are you saying gameplay is canon then? Which one is it??

 

[Mister6ame6]

It is in-character as Dante does use his things in cutscenes. Testing them as he may have its not like he won't use them.

Dante did used frequently his devil arms in Deadly Fortune and did use Cerberus in Before The Nightmare, so Dante using his other weapons his in characters and supported by other media in the series

If they're canon how do you explain that i died 30 times to beowulf whereas Donguri didn't get touched the entire game? Hell if gameplay isn't canon then that time i finished 2nd boss fight vergil in DMC3 without getting hit at all would be reflected in the cutscenes. But in the cutscenes Dante is stated to be wounded and weak. How? I never got hit. And gameplay is canon.

What does this even mean? Are you saying that everything that happens in gameplay is non canon? We use what happens in gameplay, since we can see what a character is capable and list what powers and abilities the characters have. Not everything that happens in gameplay is canon, but also do not means that everything that happens is non canon either

 

[Theglassman12]

@Firephoenixearl how it is raw headcanon to assume Dante's completely ok during the fight when he came out the fight as the victor and didn't have any permanent damage? And I have clips to prove my point, you're literally basing your arguments on headcanon yourself unironically, which is kind of sad at this point.

Solar energy doesn't remotely damage atoms in a severe way and just grants sustenance to any natural plants. That energy doesn't remotely destroy the atomic structure on the level that particle beams do. And particle beams by their very nature do not affect normal durability given they literally break apart the structure.

Heat causes the molecules to vibrate all over the place, which is the cause of turning a solid into a liquid, and a liquid into gas, where being a solid is just having the entire molecules compact and stuck together like it's frozen. Heat doesn't destroy the structure like how particle beams does, all it does is make it move everywhere and give it more freedom, that's literally how evaporation and melting works in a scientific level.

You said one's sharp to the point it cuts through atoms, which is not the same as an energy beam that isn't sharp by its very nature, it's just a specific energy beam that's designed to break apart atoms, the ways they affect matter is not the same as one's just the result of sharpening it to that point and the other is just a unique energy shot.

So your rebuttal to this entire thing is because you suck at fighting a video game boss...... wow... this is seriously where you have to peak in terms of this argument. Ok let's ask @DarkDragonMedeus this question, when have we ever disregard the gameplay part of any video game because players can suck ass on playing them? When has that ever been the case in general for any video game series like Bayonetta, Zelda, Fire Emblem, Final Fantasy, etc. that the gameplay is considered not canon in it's entirety just because you can suck ass while not sucking ass?

Again missing the entire point of what evaporation and melting does, bring a better argument than this because you're not convincing anyone here that Dante tanking the particle beam is not legit.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm just going to have to say it strait up, using the in game difficulty to judge a fight scene is downright terrible. Better downgrade Castlevania via getting your ass kicked by a couple of bats or Master Chief to 10-C via dying from stepping foot in 3 inch streams of water by those standards.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Dude...Dante was hit PRETTY clearly. Like u can see he was hit in like chest and all so I don't see any problem. Unless we are seeing a completely different game or cutscene I'm pretty sure Dante got hit by those lasers on two occasions no less. Nothing exactly contradicts the matter manipulation as the articles already mentioned so unless u got smth without the its in the 70s so its outdated then there isn't anything wrong with mundus's particle beam

That's my line. Can you link which scene exactly you're talking about just so that we're in the same page?

It is in-character as Dante does use his things in cutscenes. Testing them as he may have its not like he won't use them.

He won't resort to them under any normal circumstance. He'll use them if all his normal tactics fail. Cus by that logic it's like saying "it's in character for Medaka to use All Fiction", and we all know how that one went.

I'm pretty sure affecting atoms and molecular bonds falls under matter manipulation...

Uhm. Heat.

what does this even mean??? Are you saying gameplay is canon then? Which one is it??

Im saying gameplay is "not" canon. The example i gave was an argument as to why it's not canon as things wouldn't line up.

What does this even mean? Are you saying that everything that happens in gameplay is non canon? We use what happens in gameplay, since we can see what a character is capable and list what powers and abilities the characters have. Not everything that happens in gameplay is canon, but also do not means that everything that happens is non canon either

Sure, im not saying "anything that happens is non canon". But you'd have to prove why something is canon for sure. If you can prove to me that Dante tanked the particle beam then yeah sure idm. But an argument like "it happened in gameplay" just doesn't suffice on its own.

@Firephoenixearl how it is raw headcanon to assume Dante's completely ok during the fight when he came out the fight as the victor and didn't have any permanent damage? And I have clips to prove my point, you're literally basing your arguments on headcanon yourself unironically, which is kind of sad at this point.

Literally repetitive argument at this point. Show me the clips then we'll discuss as we'll get nowhere like this.

Solar energy doesn't remotely damage atoms in a severe way and just grants sustenance to any natural plants. That energy doesn't remotely destroy the atomic structure on the level that particle beams do. And particle beams by their very nature do not affect normal durability given they literally break apart the structure.

Solar Energy doesn't destroy the atoms cus it doesn't have much energy. Try getting close to the sun and see if that remains true.

Heat causes the molecules to vibrate all over the place, which is the cause of turning a solid into a liquid, and a liquid into gas, where being a solid is just having the entire molecules compact and stuck together like it's frozen. Heat doesn't destroy the structure like how particle beams does, all it does is make it move everywhere and give it more freedom, that's literally how evaporation and melting works in a scientific level.

1. Wrong on the "like they're frozen", molecules still move even in solid objects. Which is why Absolute 0 is a thing to begin with.
2. Do you not know that to turn a solid into a liquid you have to break it's molecular structure?
3. Heat doesn't just cause things to vibrate around. That's what increasing the temperature does. Are you familiar with the fact that when you're turning ice into water, the temperature of it stays 0 until the melting process completes? If you are you should know that heat doesn't just vibrate stuff around.

You said one's sharp to the point it cuts through atoms, which is not the same as an energy beam that isn't sharp by its very nature, it's just a specific energy beam that's designed to break apart atoms, the ways they affect matter is not the same as one's just the result of sharpening it to that point and the other is just a unique energy shot.

Lovely how you skipped the "how many forms of energy that don't work on a molecular level can you name?" part entirely and just repeated the same argument.

And they both do the same thing. Not all forms of energy are particle beams and not all swords can cut apart atoms. They both break the molecular structure through energy, just that they use different forms of energy to do so.

So your rebuttal to this entire thing is because you suck at fighting a video game boss...... wow... this is seriously where you have to peak in terms of this argument. Ok let's ask @DarkDragonMedeus this question, when have we ever disregard the gameplay part of any video game because players can suck ass on playing them? When has that ever been the case in general for any video game series like Bayonetta, Zelda, Fire Emblem, Final Fantasy, etc. that the gameplay is considered not canon in it's entirety just because you can suck ass while not sucking ass?

Did you entirely skip through the "i completed 2nd boss vergil perfectly with no damage taken but dante was actually damaged in that fight quite heavily" example entirely? Damn, im starting to notice a pattern here. Also i love how when im making the "i got hit by this" it's "you're using game difficulty for it" but when some random dude gets hit by Mundus' lazer it's actually canon.

Double standard much?

Again missing the entire point of what evaporation and melting does, bring a better argument than this because you're not convincing anyone here that Dante tanking the particle beam is not legit.

I think you just don't know how evaporation and melting works based on your previous argument. But read above, they do pretty much the same thing. Also why does being able to vibrate molecules not count as matter manip? Im making them move faster am i not? Im affecting them. It should still qualify even when i increase the temperature (not even counting heat causing change in potential energy at melting and boiling points).

 

[LordGinSama]

To reiterate, I'm fine with a "possible Resistance to Deconstruction." given that

A: Research and Development into the concept never went anywhere, leaving it at unfinished / indefinite rough draft stage. I still very much dislike the notion of using something that's been deemed "unfeasible" by our very Military, making it incomplete and unfinished meaning the end stage is unknown. ( People feel the need to only do half an hour research into this for whatever reasons while providing links that aren't in any way shape or form affiliated with any sort of official scientific bodies present. Aka one of the many reasons why teachers in school check citation to see if it's even legitimate or not. Basically information we're given straight from the Pentagon, versus some random website with actual say in the matter, it's the difference between NASA information and Facebook Conspiracy Groups.)


B: It's not Matter Manipulation but Deconstruction. Both are similar in later but Matter Manipulation is typically reserved characters who can directly manipulate matter, not only for destruction but for creation as well. Not only that but it's also shitty Deconstruction at that as it wouldn't even be Matter Annihilation but rather just having your structure altered ( Which again is unsupported and currently unproven, literally ALL sites that go over this even note that Particle Beam Weapons concepts were still in very early stage research before they dropped it indefinitely.)

 

[ShivaShakti]

To respond to the whole "gameplay is non canon" debacle, Earl.

You do realize you trying to apply this, happens to spread across a lot more than just DMC? In fact by your logic all games with any type of combat or challenge are non - canon, which would include verses like Undertale (You can suck as you said), Legend of Zelda (You can suck as you said), Shin Megami Tensei (You can suck as you said). If you're really going to make such a "Hot take" with such broad logic, take it to another CRT that applies to the wiki as a whole, because again, it would effect a lot more than DMC by your standards.

 

[Dienomite22]

Just want to mention, DMC1 took place in modern times. DMC timeline-wise would now be in the future compared to real life.
But I don't understand how Mundus creating a particle beam through magic would have anything to do with what time period the game takes place in and when he makes bio-tech weapons such as the Nightmares. Demons are far ahead of humans when it comes to technology in DMC.

 

[LordGinSama]

Aside from having provided (Verified mind you, coming from our own US Government and Military, as well as the fact that every website on Particle Beams even acknowledge that the concepts were just that, very early concepts which didn't even make out the research stage.) Once again I'm gonna provide previous citation from actual resources and I'm gonna contact staff members such as Don'tTalk for his own personal input.


* 1: - A massive misunderstanding of what Particle Beam weapons and Neutral Particle Beams Weapons were even meant to do in the first place. There's a very, very big difference between actual the usage of the weapons and the "usage" here that's being argued here. The use of Particle Beam weapons and Neutral Particle Beams Weapons, were not theorized to be used against living beings, these early concept Weapons were made to be countermeasures against Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles and such, they would under no circumstances EVER be even attempted to be thought of as a weapon against living beings due to being a blatant violation against Geneva Convention.



* 2: - Let's take a look at the blogs presented at hand, namely the blog that Glass and Co are using the majority of their argument off of. For starters here is the blog in question, a blog that was made a very, very long time ago back when the project was first started (We've had decades of research and we still haven't made it out of early stage.) and let's address some things first. As I said before the side arguing for Matter Manipulation, have evidently skimmed through the blog they provided considering there's several instances in the blog where they blatantly contradict themselves and go on to even state this at the bottom of the blog.

Disclaimer

The conclusions and opinions expressed in this document are those of the author cultivated in the freedom of expression, academic environment of Air University. They do not reflect the official position of the U.S. Government, Department of Defense, the United States Air Force or the Air University.

Hmm so the form of citation that you've provided, and so desperately vouched for is now telling you that they are in no way, shape or form any sort of official, verified information correct? And the guy who wrote that was only present for that matter when the study first came out, decades of research later and the current head of the project and the Pentagon (aka the guys who are literally the most knowledgeable people regarding this subject.) had the following to say.


We are deferring work on neutral particle beams, indefinitely,” “It’s just not near-term enough.”

“My own opinion is we need to get systems built and put onto platforms so we can see what they do how they do it,” he said, meaning how the weapons interact with their platform(s) and environment. “We need to understand the lethality of those systems, things like beam control. We need to know how to scale them up in practical ways. If you have 250 kilowatts of, say, laser, and you are operating at best at 50-percent efficiency, you have to figure out what to do with the other kilowatts of heat.

“So there are a lot of practical problems with real-world weapons systems,” he said. “We are spending money on it.”



I.E due it being still in very, very early into it's research stage (Note; Not the end stage of research or even the beginning of the Development Stage despite the decade's we've had since the concept was first created.) we have no real way of telling what it even functions like, there is no end product that would allow us to make a finalized, offical judgement, hell we haven't even FINISHED the research stage of them, that is before the Pentagon and the top R&D Chief threw in the towel. This is gonna be my last comment on this subject before contacting DontTalk.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

To respond to the whole "gameplay is non canon" debacle, Earl.

You do realize you trying to apply this, happens to spread across a lot more than just DMC? In fact by your logic all games with any type of combat or challenge are non - canon, which would include verses like Undertale (You can suck as you said), Legend of Zelda (You can suck as you said), Shin Megami Tensei (You can suck as you said). If you're really going to make such a "Hot take" with such broad logic, take it to another CRT that applies to the wiki as a whole, because again, it would effect a lot more than DMC by your standards.

The thing is i am fine with the results of gameplay being canon, so basically things like what doors did Dante enter in DMC3 3rd and 4th mission. That is part of the story cus we're talking about a route, but if you tell me "any blocking or dodging that happens is also canon, including any hits you may take" then it starts getting out of hand when we have gameplay moments that are not even remotely similar or directly contradict what happens in the cutscenes (like the 2 examples i mentioned above).

And just cus other shows do this doesn't mean everyone gets to keep it. This is going down the oven logic of "if all verses do something that's not based on any form of standard then you have to downgrade all at the same time cus you should deal with 30 verses and arguments at the same time as that is the logical thing to do". Unless there is a standard that says "any form of gameplay in games despite the situation has to be accepted as true" then bringing in other verses isn't an argument.

TL;DR
1. As long as there is no good argument for gameplay to stay
2. As long as there is no standard in place regarding these
DMC gameplay can go just fine without me needing to go into a dozen other verses.

 

[ShivaShakti]

The thing is i am fine with the results of gameplay being canon, so basically things like what doors did Dante enter in DMC3 3rd and 4th mission. That is part of the story cus we're talking about a route, but if you tell me "any blocking or dodging that happens is also canon, including any hits you may take" then it starts getting out of hand when we have gameplay moments that are not even remotely similar or directly contradict what happens in the cutscenes (like the 2 examples i mentioned above).

And just cus other shows do this doesn't mean everyone gets to keep it. This is going down the oven logic of "if all verses do something that's not based on any form of standard then you have to downgrade all at the same time cus you should deal with 30 verses and arguments at the same time as that is the logical thing to do". Unless there is a standard that says "any form of gameplay in games despite the situation has to be accepted as true" then bringing in other verses isn't an argument.

TL;DR
1. As long as there is no good argument for gameplay to stay
2. As long as there is no standard in place regarding these
DMC gameplay can go just fine without me needing to go into a dozen other verses.

No this... Pretty much would apply to every game verse. In SMT and Persona, Persona currently bases a few speed feats off gameplay (such as being able to react to and dodge the moves Morningstar and big bang challenge.) By this logic any combat, skill, and hax feats aren't canon. Using this weapon or ability to this or that isn't canon. There goes like 90% of SMT's combat abilities. And if the gameplay isn't canon here Earl, then what the hell even is? Does what happen just not exist, or what?

 

[Duedate8898]

Hmm, I would like to mention here that SMT and Persona play differently in comparison to DMC. And how those games implement combat into the wider narrative could also be different as well. So there is no simple 1-1 in terms of how gameplay should be treated in relation to stats.

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

So we wish to pick and choose what's canon and what's not canon within gameplay in correlation to our viewpoints regarding a certain medium? We can't use lore in a game because it goes against what's shown in the game, now we can't use gameplay for our characters? Gameplay mechanics are just that, gameplay mechanics. We know video game characters don't have health bars. We know stronger characters aren't struggling with fodder enemies, that doesn't mean if that fodder enemy uses a hax in gameplay, that the character wouldn't by default would be given resistance to said hax. This should be common sense.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

nd if the gameplay isn't canon here Earl, then what the hell even is? Does what happen just not exist, or what?

The fights happen, the issue is it stops there. Example we know Dante vs Beowulf happens, we know Dante wins with rather...mid to low difficulty but it stops there. That's all we know for sure. How 1 player plays the actual gameplay is different from how another player does. So we treat things like that as off screen fights in terms of canon.

Also please do not make an equalization to verses like that. Last time Oven used that it turned out the example he equalized was far more legit and had no reason to be equalized.

So as long as no standard is in place look at them 1 by 1.

We know stronger characters aren't struggling with fodder enemies, that doesn't mean if that fodder enemy uses a hax in gameplay, that the character wouldn't by default would be given resistance to said hax. This should be common sense.

Wait, you're not talking about Mundus vs Dante are you? I hope this is just a general statement. I hope you're not calling a particle beam 10x larger than what characters in cutscenes had to block instead of tanking from a dude who is equal to him as "fodder enemy using hax".

And besides there are other ways to fodderize someone that doesn't include resisting their hax. Just cus vsbw has been obvious with that kind of stuff doesn't mean it's the only way to go.

We can't use lore in a game because it goes against what's shown in the game

When was that a thing?

, now we can't use gameplay for our characters?

Yes because in said game the gameplay can contradict the actual lore due to being player choice.

Gameplay mechanics are just that, gameplay mechanics.

Literally never the point of the debate. No one even brought it up.

 

[LordGinSama]

By the way, Dante really shouldn't be resistant to Soul Manipulation, at least not for the Demon World stuff. The way it's currently worded doesn't imply destruction or absorption of the soul, not even removal. It's really not even the manipulation of souls as much as it is Transmutation and Corruption hax that works on Souls.



Slapping Resistance to Soul Manipulation and leaving it at that makes it seem like he's resistant to Soul Destruction / Removal on a universal scale, which isn't the case.

 

[ShivaShakti]

By the way, Dante really shouldn't be resistant to Soul Manipulation, at least not for the Demon World stuff. The way it's currently worded doesn't imply destruction or absorption of the soul, not even removal. It's really not even the manipulation of souls as much as it is Transmutation and Corruption hax that works on Souls.



Slapping Resistance to Soul Manipulation and leaving it at that makes it seem like he's resistant to Soul Destruction / Removal on a universal scale, which isn't the case.

Soul manipulation isn't limited to destruction, it can be absorption, power projection, along with many more applications. It just requires the soul to be directly interacted with.

 

[Bobsican]

Yeah, what he means is that the resistance itself should be at least specified further.

 

[Dienomite22]

That particular resistance is pretty well specified as it says he resists the soul manipulation that turns souls into monsters. You can't mistake that for soul destruction or removal resistance.

But it would be good to show his other types of resistance to soul manipulation too.

 

[LordGinSama]

Not necessarily, literally just saw users confusing that for Universal Soul Destruction resistance.

 

[Dienomite22]

If they mean that is soul destruction resistance on some level then that should be correct but it's not universal soul destruction resistance. Someone with soul transmutation/corruption resistance should be able to resist soul destruction better than someone else with zero soul manipulation resistance. Assuming that's what the people you are speaking of are thinking. Just correcting them should be fine.

 

[Bobsican]

Yeah, you've got to prove that for this case, resisting soul transmutation/corruption doesn't mean the user may also resist other soul-related capabilities (Most notably actual destruction), after all.

 

[Dienomite22]

That's for the people Gin saw saying that to argue.

 

[EFÍTÉ]

for clarification.
Dante does resist demon's world soul manipulation, attacks that targets the soul.
And likely other manipulations considering Mundus Reality warping scalling to beastheads reality warping shenanigans.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Hi everybody,
I have been following this thread since Page 4 was first created and recently I decided that even I wanted to participate here in this discussion , so just yesterday I created my new account.

@Firephoenixearl

I would like to give my two cents here.....
I think we are being unfair to the Game Characters by judging their attributes by the performance and choices of Human Player .
Game Character at the end of the day is just a graphic model with certain set of skills, abilities and gimmicks........the abilities have certain attributes and character as a whole also has some stats.

How a Human Player handles the Game Character, or makes any choices .....do not at all affect the character's stats.

The same way me having a bad aim and handling of a gun shouldn't affect the gun's attributes itself.

There's a difference between probability and possibility. All that matters is the Game Character's ability to do something rather than will the Human Player decide to use it or not.
Now that I have made my thoughts games in general clear I'll segue into my thoughts on DMC.

Now there are 2 broad kinds of battles encountered in DMC :-

1) Every battle involving fodder minions and fodder bosses. Now these ones are easy to figure........these enemies do absolutley nothing that can either upgrade Dante's physical stats or degrade them. Any hax that they can throw at Dante we can safely assume that they do not affect him at all, this is even shown in gameplay via certain gimmicks like for e.g Soul Eaters in DMC3 can grab Dante and leech off his DT, health and soul but player can escape it using DT( hell I'd say it is safe to assume he is unaffected at all even without DT from a lore standpoint) same goes for resistances against Nevan's Death Kiss or Cerberus Ice etc.
E.g of bosses being fodderised are Cerberus, Gigapede, A&R, Nevan, Laviathan, especially Argosax( hehe this dude got fodderised worse than some lowly minions by a super casual Dante no less)

2) Then there fights against enemies of comparable strength to Dante's. For e.g DMC3 M2 Boss Battle against Hell Vanguard who was a Street Lvl Demon but gave a very good fight to Dante, then there all the battles involving Vergil , in which he lost the 1st battle, 2nd was a tie and 3rd he won mid diff. Beowulf was clearly superior to base Dante and may have won if not for his eyeball going blind but maybe if the fight would have continued then DT or Majin form could be pulled out but that is just a speculation. Geryon could be considered a comparable opponent but maybe only because of his hax, Arkham is another one.......these kind battles should be studied with more generosity....

Now that I have explained the types.....lets looks at final Mundus Boss Battle ...............
This battle clearly falls in 2nd category......

Lets start at cutscenes......
Mundus fires a particle beam( whose nature is still debated heavily here so I won't comment on it know) and Dante in response deflects it via his red aura which was visible on his person when he was angry.
Then Mundus comes out of his seal, creates a universe and, here Dante unleashes full strength of Sparda DT. Then they engage in a "Danmaku Dogfight" in interstellar space.......BUT this is not your typical dogfight observed with fighter jets where even a singular shot can bring down a jet, or Mexican Standoff where a single bullet can a kill a person...etc, or in anyway similar to the typical battles in the game itself which requires martial prowess from Dante.
This is kind of battle is complete anti-thesis of stylish action. This was a pure battle of attrition NOT skill and evasion , this involved the characters throwing projectiles at each other AND tanking in replacement of having a mano e mano punching/brawling match. Considering all of this its pretty obvious and simple to conclude that Dante is easily susceptible to getting hit by particle beam AND if he gets hit he CAN tank it.

Long story short the possibility of Character tanking attack overides the probability factor due to Player deciding whether he wants the Character to evade or tank it.

It is unfair to apply such hard and fast rules which require our judgment of games to either accept gameplay completely or reject it completely.......especially for hack and slash genre where Game Characters are made to fight wide variety of enemies which can be fodder, comparable or stronger than Character especially in gameplay which has severe limiting rules for on Character for gameplay reasons and on top of which Character has no agency over his own actions due to Player who is controlling him.

As for the nature of particle beam itself .....I wont comment now.

 

[DMUA]

Heat doesn't just cause things to vibrate around. That's what increasing the temperature does.

... temperature is the measurement of heat.

I am genuinely confused as to what you were trying to go for here.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Firephoenixearl I've showed you the cutscenes numerous times in this thread, pay attention to my comments for the last time, if you're gonna ignore the cutscenes I've shown then why argue this point to begin with?

That doesn't matter, it does not damage the atoms like the way particle beams so it debunks your point on all energy can attack atoms.

Stop with the cherry picking, "like they're frozen" is not the same as literally frozen. Come up with a rebuttal that isn't just nitpicks. Yes I know that, the way they break apart is not the same on how Particle beams break apart atoms. What do you think Heat does in the first place? Increase the temperature....... is not the same as heat........ what? Have you taken any chemistry class at all dude?

I didn't skip that, which btw you acknowledge by responding to my solar energy comment so it seems you have a habit to forget what I just said. Ok, if they're not all the same as particle beams then why are you arguing they all have the same effect?

That point means absolutely nothing, as Kira said, you're not arguing against DMC at this point, you're arguing against the entirety of Video games, make a CRT about the entirety of video games regarding the gameplay being not canon.

You're not the one manipulating the molecules, the heat from the stove is, and even then there's specific ways of doing so, so that's a false equivalency.

@LordGinSama Ok Gin, I have asked you this numerous times, can you answer this question for once. Why does the white house not making the weapons automatically debunk the theory? What articles do you have to prove that the whole idea of how particle beams work is not true? Give us an article to prove that this isn't the case. If you can once prove that how the way particle beams worked back then doesn't actually hold up today, then I'll stop arguing this point. But right now you're basing this off the fact we never made the weapons, that doesn't disprove anything on how Particle beams work.

 

[Bobsican]

I'll go ahead and comment something regarding the particle beam stuff.
I don't think it's a good idea to use as a legitimate part of the setting's physics something that's based on dubious and extremely obscure research that's mostly hypothetical, that's like taking the (thought at a time) IRL research over the size of the universe and using it to scale the default size of any universe, which we don't as it's pretty variable for the purposes of the baseline in the 3-A tier, but worse as it has little to no content backing it up properly in this case.
So, per the site's standards, I don't think this part should get a pass, if this continues some staff member may as well tag @DontTalkDT to see what he thinks.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I've showed you the cutscenes numerous times in this thread, pay attention to my comments for the last time, if you're gonna ignore the cutscenes I've shown then why argue this point to begin with?

Again you never showed me a cutscene where Dante gets hit by the particle beam. There is a cutscene of Dante getting hit in general (which does work against him) and a random gameplay scene of someone not dodging which is not what Dante may have done in the actual lore.

That doesn't matter, it does not damage the atoms like the way particle beams so it debunks your point on all energy can attack atoms.

You do know that heat can turn objects into plasma right, which is an ionized state of the gas. Meaning heat affects it down to the electron. Im assuming you knew this just forgot about it.

Stop with the cherry picking, "like they're frozen" is not the same as literally frozen. Come up with a rebuttal that isn't just nitpicks. Yes I know that, the way they break apart is not the same on how Particle beams break apart atoms. What do you think Heat does in the first place? Increase the temperature....... is not the same as heat........ what? Have you taken any chemistry class at all dude?

The "it doesn't work exactly the same", ok but it still is Matter Manip by that logic. Unless your argument is "unless you work exactly like particle beams you can't be matter manip", which i don't have to explain why it's a bad point. Heat breaks the molecular structure of things, so it should be matter manip. GG.

You do know that you can apply heat to something without its temperature changing right? Heat is energy, temperature is the measurement of the kinetic energy of the particles that make up matter. However when the kinetic energy doesn't change, but instead the potential energy does, we have a case where giving heat doesn't increase the temperature. Not knowing the difference between heat and temperature shows lack of fundamental understanding of physics.

I didn't skip that, which btw you acknowledge by responding to my solar energy comment so it seems you have a habit to forget what I just said. Ok, if they're not all the same as particle beams then why are you arguing they all have the same effect?

No you didn't you brought up the "doesn't damage the atoms", which is not what i was arguing to begin with. I was talking about affecting them in the first place. And saying the sun doesn't affect your atoms is ugh...

I never EVER said all forms of energy are the same as particle beams though. Particle beams are very specific, doesn't mean that other forms of energy don't fulfill all of the same criteria for Matter Manip.

That point means absolutely nothing, as Kira said, you're not arguing against DMC at this point, you're arguing against the entirety of Video games, make a CRT about the entirety of video games regarding the gameplay being not canon.

Not really. Show me a standard of "all gameplay is canon" in the site. Then i will make that thread. You should know better than that, unless a standard is in place there is no reason to tackle several verses at the same time.

You're not the one manipulating the molecules, the heat from the stove is, and even then there's specific ways of doing so, so that's a false equivalency.

I am the one controlling the stove though. Similarly Mundus isn't the one "manipulating" the molecules, the beam is, he is controlling the beam though.

... temperature is the measurement of heat.

I am genuinely confused as to what you were trying to go for here.

No....as i told to Glassman, temperature is not the measurement of the heat you give an object. Temperature is the measurement of the kinetic energy, meaning the heat something possesses already. In other words if i say "increasing the temperature of an object is what causes more vibration, instead of just giving it heat", that is a correct statement cus you can give heat to something without increasing its temperature.

This is kind of battle is complete anti-thesis of stylish action. This was a pure battle of attrition NOT skill and evasion , this involved the characters throwing projectiles at each other AND tanking in replacement of having a mano e mano punching/brawling match. Considering all of this its pretty obvious and simple to conclude that Dante is easily susceptible to getting hit by particle beam AND if he gets hit he CAN tank it.

That is not really a safe argument as that is just your speculation. And no if 2 ppl are fighting it doesn't mean "they can tank each-other's attacks" it can easily mean that they have ways around each-other's attacks. As long as they have ways to counter it, it'll always be the option on the table cus it doesn't require speculation. We can easily say "Dante has barriers to deal with Mundus' particle beams even if he manages to get clipped once", cus it requires no speculation as it is using information we already have about the character. We cannot say "Mundus has particle beams so Dante must have resistance to it" as easily however cus that requires speculation as you're adding a resistance to something based on nothing.

In other words when we have other safer options on the table there needs to be a much better case for "Dante resists the particle beam". When we have several safe arguments like "He can avoid it completely as the beam is really slow", "As long as his whole body doesn't get clipped by it he will be fine due to regen" and "He can easily put up barriers to deal with it", there is no reason to go for the resistance as it would turn into "Mundus literally cannot affect Dante with those yet he still uses those in a fight".

Not necessarily, literally just saw users confusing that for Universal Soul Destruction resistance.

The soul resistance (even to transmutation or whatever) has a potency of 1 though. Why would anyone argue Dante has Universal Soul Resistance to any kind of soul manip?

And likely other manipulations considering Mundus Reality warping scalling to beastheads reality warping shenanigans

You should probably make a case for all of them first then apply all of the specific types to the profile.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

You do know that you can apply heat to something without its temperature changing right?

Excuse me?
My guess is that you probably worded whatever you was trying to say poorly, but I don't know in what context this could possibly be true. Unless we're talking about some fiction bullshit.

 

[LordGinSama]

@LordGinSama Ok Gin, I have asked you this numerous times, can you answer this question for once. Why does the white house not making the weapons automatically debunk the theory? What articles do you have to prove that the whole idea of how particle beams work is not true? Give us an article to prove that this isn't the case. If you can once prove that how the way particle beams worked back then doesn't actually hold up today, then I'll stop arguing this point. But right now you're basing this off the fact we never made the weapons, that doesn't disprove anything on how Particle beams work.

Firstly, it's not the White House.... why on Earth would the White House be in charge of the creation of weapons? Secondly, I've provided ample evidence and scans (which I posted in my reply, you literally just ignored them for whatever reason.) Literally none, and let me make that clear, literally none of your "scans" are legitimate sources of information, there's even a legal disclaimer in the first one.



And are you insane? Like really dude how old are you exactly? A theory is just that, a theory nothing more than a concept written down one piece of paper. The theory isn't what matters, its the final production that matters to see if it even does what it's supposed to do. Ignoring the fact that
A: None of your blogs are official soruces of Information and came out in the 70s. Flip back to 2020 and we have the Pentagon outright stating that we actually have no idea on what it actually does, more specifically this quote came from the dude who was in CHARGE of the Air Force Weapons program.

B: You seem to be blatantly ignoring important chunks of information that I've highlighted (namely the quotes and the fact that the hot links are blue. Obviously saw them and decided to not click on them, or he's trying to deface my argument with a quasi like form of Ad Hominem.)




It's a literal matter of the fact that it's an unproven theory, one that's been directly labeled as "unfeasible for Military application." and the man who's directly stopped R&D for the very thing your arguing even made this statement (Literally my third time posting it, stop ignoring it and stonewalling.)

“My own opinion is we need to get systems built and put onto platforms so we can see what they do how they do it,” he said, meaning how the weapons interact with their platform(s) and environment. “We need to understand the lethality of those systems, things like beam control. We need to know how to scale them up in practical ways. If you have 250 kilowatts of, say, laser, and you are operating at best at 50-percent efficiency, you have to figure out what to do with the other kilowatts of heat.




Literally him telling you what I've been telling you the entire thread, there's no way to tell what it actually does without having had made a prototype of the sorts, and this hasn't even made it out of it's early research stages. A car company isn't gonna make a blueprint for a new type of car that runs on milk, they aren't just gonna throw the blueprint on the table and go "FINISHED!!" no, they'd make the final product to see if it does what they anticipated, without said final product there's no way of telling what it does, leaving it unproven. This really should be common sense? Literally if this was an argumentative essay in college you would have failed for
A: The usage of Fallacies left and right
B: Citation that isn't proper, which you've only skimmed through.



Yeah I'd say me and you are about done here. If your just gonna continue to ignore citation while also being inherently ignorant when in the face of evidence I'm just gonna ignore you. You've given no form of a proper rebuttal, saying that I haven't provided.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Eehhh I have a lot to say but since I am busy now.....I will come with arguements later.

 

[LordGinSama]

There literally isn't anything to argue, sorry but no matter what DMC fan may come and argue on behalf of matter manipulation resistance, it all comes short in comparison to the literal guy who's in charge of the Lasers weapons program telling you how ambiguous and impractical it is.