Devil May Cry Revisions : Conceptual Edition

[Sevil Natas]

The Concepts:

名字的力量 从他们出生的那一刻起，名字就是恶魔们最神圣的东西之一。它们不仅代表着权力，还代表着它们自身存在的概念，其基本原则甚至早于恶魔世界本身的创造。 它表现为形成他们的灵魂的一部分，以及他们黑暗的心。 The power of a name From the moment of their birth, names are one of the most sacred things to demons. They represent not only power, but also the concept of their own existence, the basic principles of which predate even the creation of the demon world itself. It manifests itself as part of the soul that forms them, and their dark hearts.

in DMC names are basically what gives demons their power.

as we can see here by this quote it pretty much says that demon names are the concept of their own existence, the basic principles predating the creation of the Demon World, since the demon world came before the universe, their concepts would exist outside it, so by this we confirm that their names Are Type 1 Concepts

Souls :

the interesting part of this statement is that it says that the names of demons are housed inside their soul this coupled with the fact that demons are capable of surviving without a name, in the manga vergil happens to meet some demons without names and they basically beg vergil to grant them one, so demons could infact survive without a name but not so much without a soul, if the soul is destroyed then the demon of said soul is also completely destroyed,further more in the same manga scans, arkham states the following "more than those forms they take, it is said that the name of a demon is closer to its true substance" "the true substance" is probably referring to their souls as their souls are concsidered their true forms this heavily implies that souls are superior to names because it says that a demons name is closer to its soul than its physical form, all of that coupled with the fact that names are stated to be part of their souls would make demon souls more abstract than their names

So, what does this mean? :

basically since souls are the true forms of demons as currently accepted all demons will get Abstract Existence(Type 1)

also Low tier & Mid Tier demon Regeneration will be changed from Low-godly to Mid-Godly, as they can regenerate from their soul which is more fundamental than their concepts
Note: that Low tier Regeneration would still have its previous limitation

further more for people with sparda inharitence, they would get Conceptual Manipulation(type 1) for being able to erase, restore and destroy such concepts, characters with the sparda bloodline would also gain resistance to said Conceptual Manipulation for being able to resist each others attacks which can destroy demon souls

edit : upon further discussion, the Demon Worlds energy would also get Conceptual Manipulation for being able to corrupt human souls into demon souls
and as a result, demons overall should have resistance to this Conceptual Manipulation
PoC & Canonicity :

as you can already tell if you're familiar with DMC, we're using PoC. now many of you will be asking 'isnt PoC not canon the main timeline?' see the thing is, we havent got any confirmation from CAPCOM regarding its canonicity, and so far we dont have sufficient reason to dismiss its canonicity infact we have proof that the opposite is true
here's what we know about PoC officially :

its licensed by capcom

the story and the lore stuff is FULLY supervised by capcom

its story doesnt really affect the main timeline in any way, meaning there are no contradictions in it currently

we got news articles from the company developing it that says its set between DMC 3 & 1 : https://dmc.nebulajoy.com/news_307.html

'The storyline of "Devil May Cry-Battle at the Pinnacle" is interspersed between "Devil May Cry 3" and "Devil May Cry 1".' its in chinese you gotta use your browsers translator to read it

we also got another article saying its an Orthodox sequel (sequel as in production sequel not chronological sequel) to the Devil may cry series.

https://dmc.nebulajoy.com/news_291.html

"Therefore, as the orthodox sequel to the "Devil May Cry" series, "Devil May Cry-Battle at the Pinnacle" once again carries forward these precious qualities"

again its in chinese you gotta translate

this is its official description in TapTap

it says the game is developed by both capcom & nebula joy
it calls PoC a genuine DMC game
it remains consistent with the overall story of DMC

all of the information above should prove that the game is indeed canon

Agree : mister, lightning, shizuka, gliver, tokiNoOuja, fixxed, crimson, milly, zencha, kepekly, elizhaa, LordGinSama, Lordgriffon

Disagree: efite (on the soul stuff)

Neutral: glass, pariah

 

[Mister6ame6]

Agree

 

[EFÍTÉ]

I will tackle each point give some time.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

characters with the sparda bloodline would also gain resistance to said Conceptual Manipulation for being able to resist each others attacks which can destroy demon souls

I didn't understood this one

Souls may be more vital for a demon's existence than their name but that doesn't make them conceptual as that's not related to "importance" or "ranks", but the nature of something. I'm against Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation via resisting Soul Hax

 

[Sevil Natas]

I didn't understood this one

Souls may be more vital for a demon's existence than their name but that doesn't make them conceptual as that's not related to "importance" or "ranks", but the nature of something. I'm against Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation via resisting Soul Hax

uh.. but that isnt the point tho, the fact that names are a part of those souls makes them conceptual, you'd need to be conceptual in order to do that, the survive without a name part is just there to support that fact

 

[Lightning_XXI]

uh.. but that isnt the point tho, the fact that names are a part of those souls makes them conceptual, you'd need to be conceptual in order to do that, the survive without a name part is just there to support that fact

I must admit a forgot for a moment about the "part of the soul" thing, focused too much on one quote

Anyway, it happens

 

[Sevil Natas]

I must admit a forgot for a moment about the "part of the soul" thing, focused too much on one quote

Anyway, it happens

ok it happens, are you fine with the crt as a whole then?

 

[EFÍTÉ]

the interesting part of this statement is that it says that the names of demons are housed inside their soul this coupled with the fact that demons are capable of surviving without a name, in the manga vergil happens to meet some demons without names and they basically beg vergil to grant them one, so demons could infact survive without a name but not so much without a soul, if the soul is destroyed then the demon of said soul is also completely destroyed,further more in the same manga scans, arkham states the following "more than those forms they take, it is said that the name of a demon is closer to its true substance" "the true substance" is probably referring to their souls as their souls are concsidered their true forms this heavily implies that souls are superior to names because it says that a demons name is closer to its soul than its physical form, all of that coupled with the fact that names are stated to be part of their souls would make demon souls more abstract than their names

Funny you didn't show this scan.

And you also for some reason ignored this part of the manga page and this part here

And no, the name being closer to its true substance doens't mean soul being higher level, such notion is debunked on the same panel by arkham.

This doens't mean they are not the real deal, because a demon's name is literally himself and what they are on both soul, mind and physical form.

To say is just physical form is a huge L to take, when demons are characterized to be spirits, i guess spirit demons doens't have a name and power to even to do something properly.

Alot of things goes against the notion of soul > names. You also are dealing with a narrative problem with sparda's temen-nih-gru seal, where removing the Sins name is part of the binding to mantain the seal wouldn't work in any level.

A good example would be removing everything that's inside of human, letting only the Skin intact.

 

[Sevil Natas]

Funny you didn't show this scan.

And you also for some reason ignored this part of the manga page and this part here

ok cool but what do those mean? also i didnt choose not to include them, the imgur link i used was the justification for their conceptual manip type 2 which includes all of the stuff i argue
yes demon names means everything to them, their names give them their power, without them they're powerless to do anything
what does this prove?

And no, the name being closer to its true substance doens't mean soul being higher level, such notion is debunked on the same panel by arkham.

where? modeling their physical forms after their names means nothing in relation to their souls.

This doens't mean they are not the real deal, because a demon's name is literally himself and what they are on both soul, mind and physical form.

scans? also demons surviving without a name but not without a soul disproves this, if the name gives them their souls & their physical form well that wouldnt really make sense as we see demons without their names HAVE both physical forms and souls, a demons name only gives them their power, with said power they can model their physical appearance to make themselves stronger

To say is just physical form is a huge L to take, when demons are characterized to be spirits, i guess spirit demons doens't have a name and power to even to do something properly.

yes the souls of a demon doesnt give them their power their names do, and just because their true forms are characterized to be spirits doesnt mean anything.
again if names give demons their souls (which is a contradiction btw because in PoC it clearly states names are just part of souls and arkham implies that too)
then they wouldnt survive without their names, because they cant survive without their souls, do you see why what you're saying doesnt make any sense?

Alot of things goes against the notion of soul > names. You also are dealing with a narrative problem with sparda's temen-nih-gru seal, where removing the Sins name is part of the binding to mantain the seal wouldn't work in any level

not really, all things line up perfectly actually, and what i got from the sealing part is that sparda used their names which gives them their power to fuel the temen nih gru seal? anyway they're still powerless but they have their souls, what does this contradict?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Iamma reply later

 

[DarlingAurora]

Neutral for now.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

ok it happens, are you fine with the crt as a whole then?

For now yes, I am

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

I agree as well

Finally. It has become a reality once again.

 

[DarlingAurora]

Okwy I change my vote to agree

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

So I was going to post an entire essay.....but I decided that better part of valor will be to save up all ammo for impending doom...just in case.

For now I will say I agree with OP, I have my own interpretations of these names/concepts and Abstractions...but its unnecessary here at this stage.
----------------×-------------------×---------------
But one modification that I request for OP is complete inclusion of all entities for CM1(Manipulation and Resistance) upgrade which any involvement with manipulation of Demon Souls.
Whether that Demon Soul is on side on resource side or product side of Manipulation.

With how PoC and OP presents CM1, its an integral part of Demon Soul. Any manipulation of Demon soul will involve manipulation of concepts.
Soul hax in DMC will become Soul hax+Concept Hax.

That is the concequence of the upgrade, and we should own up to it fully. No need to feel uncomfortable around this issue. No need to pussyfoot and half ass around this.

If any demon soul is resisting soul hax from entity that can manipulate concepts, then they should get resistance to soul hax+concept hax.
If any entity that can manipulate demon souls they should get CM1+Soul hax.

So basically DWE, Sparda Heritage, Mid Tier Demons, God tiers etc should get CM1+Soul hax.
And anyone who resists all of the above, should get the respective resistance.
It should be treated as we treat soul hax.

As simple as that.

 

[Sevil Natas]

So basically DWE, Sparda Heritage, Mid Tier Demons, God tiers etc should get CM1+Soul hax.

the DWE, god tier & the resistance part is reasonable, however Mid tier demons, only greyon have shown the ability to eat demon souls, i'm not sure of scaling that to all of them

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

the DWE, god tier & the resistance part is reasonable, however Mid tier demons, only greyon have shown the ability to eat demon souls, i'm not sure of scaling all of that to them

I see.
Well I'll do you one better.

Hell Wraths are capable of destroying their own brethren, its even explained on its lore.

So is Blitz, capable of killing demons.

Beelzebub can eat and absorb their kind, also explained in its lore.

Bianco Angelos and Alto Angelos were made to fight and kill demons, and have on screen feats of doing so, both in game and novels.

Hell Vangaurd is feared demon in DW, that's why we scale it above Bael and Fausts and rest of demons, which would be only possible if it were capable of killing demons. Its lore even describes it as soul reaper.

In DMC2 novel Chen fodder army which is made of artificial demons is made to fight and eliminate a horde of demons in start of novel.
In latter half when Dante gets bfr'ed to Alt Universe, we see Rebellion Camp Demons and Void Mundus army killing each other.

And all of this I mentioned is just low tiers...Mid Tiers are one layer above that

Agnus, Credo, Saviour, Lucia, Trish, Sanctus, Arkham etc all of these are capable of killing demons manipulating souls.

You can clearly see why destroying demon souls is very normal things for demons.

So I see no reason to feel uncomfortable around it. Especially when we already accept this all on profiles.
Remember we are just upgrading accepted and profiled soul hax to soul hax + CM1.
We cannot arbitrarily decide whom to assign CM1 based on instinct. Applying selectively will require proof on your end. Since we have already established a precedence on the profiles that they can manipulate demon souls.

 

[Mister6ame6]

the DWE, god tier & the resistance part is reasonable, however Mid tier demons, only greyon have shown the ability to eat demon souls, i'm not sure of scaling that to all of them

We have even fodder demons interacting with demons's souls

Soul Eater

Flambat

Sin Scythe

Beelzebub

There is even more statements if we use Mid Tier demons, so i will say that even low tier can have that, they are capable to kill each other afterwall.

Is actually accepted rn that every demon have soul hax in the Demon Physiology page, so i guess this need to be discussed further here if people want to have only soul hax for the mid tier in the page.

 

[Sevil Natas]

I see.
Well I'll do you one better.

Hell Wraths are capable of destroying their own brethren, its even explained on its lore.

So is Blitz, capable of killing demons.

Beelzebub can eat and absorb their kind, also explained in its lore.

Bianco Angelos and Alto Angelos were made to fight and kill demons, and have on screen feats of doing so, both in game and novels.

Hell Vangaurd is feared demon in DW, that's why we scale it above Bael and Fausts and rest of demons, which would be only possible if it were capable of killing demons. Its lore even describes it as soul reaper.

In DMC2 novel Chen fodder army which is made of artificial demons is made to fight and eliminate a horde of demons in start of novel.
In latter half when Dante gets bfr'ed to Alt Universe, we see Rebellion Camp Demons and Void Mundus army killing each other.

And all of this I mentioned is just low tiers...Mid Tiers are one layer above that

Agnus, Credo, Saviour, Lucia, Trish, Sanctus, Arkham etc all of these are capable of killing demons manipulating souls.

You can clearly see why destroying demon souls is very normal things for demons.

So I see no reason to feel uncomfortable around it. Especially when we already accept this all on profiles.
Remember we are just upgrading accepted and profiled soul hax to soul hax + CM1.
We cannot arbitrarily decide whom to assign CM1 based on instinct.

okay fine it makes sense

just realised that i argued for that in the first place, **** im stupid

 

[Sevil Natas]

I see.
Well I'll do you one better.

Hell Wraths are capable of destroying their own brethren, its even explained on its lore.

So is Blitz, capable of killing demons.

Beelzebub can eat and absorb their kind, also explained in its lore.

Bianco Angelos and Alto Angelos were made to fight and kill demons, and have on screen feats of doing so, both in game and novels.

Hell Vangaurd is feared demon in DW, that's why we scale it above Bael and Fausts and rest of demons, which would be only possible if it were capable of killing demons. Its lore even describes it as soul reaper.

In DMC2 novel Chen fodder army which is made of artificial demons is made to fight and eliminate a horde of demons in start of novel.
In latter half when Dante gets bfr'ed to Alt Universe, we see Rebellion Camp Demons and Void Mundus army killing each other.

And all of this I mentioned is just low tiers...Mid Tiers are one layer above that

Agnus, Credo, Saviour, Lucia, Trish, Sanctus, Arkham etc all of these are capable of killing demons manipulating souls.

You can clearly see why destroying demon souls is very normal things for demons.

So I see no reason to feel uncomfortable around it. Especially when we already accept this all on profiles.
Remember we are just upgrading accepted and profiled soul hax to soul hax + CM1.
We cannot arbitrarily decide whom to assign CM1 based on instinct.

okay fine it makes sense

just realised that i argued for that in the first place, **** im stupid

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

okay fine it makes sense

just realised that i argued for that in the first place, **** im stupid

No problem.

I understand this is a very sensitive topic, so some amount of apprehensiveness is natural.

But its nice we came to a truce.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Be sure to update OP on this. @Sevil Natas

And I ask other people/readers to reread this section again.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

FYI, I know nothing of this series, and was simply asked to join due to my knowledge of CM as a whole.

I’m not really sure what’s Type 1 CM about this. Predating it doesn’t exactly mean transcendence over reality, just like existing before the concept of causality doesn’t make you Type 5. The basic principles part is indeed interesting, as it does mention a primal, almost archetypal form of the laws the realities soon to come will follow, but without further elaboration I can’t see it.

More damning is the fact that these things can survive without names, the so called sources of their existence and power. The fundamental problem with this is, once you erase/lack the things that are the rudimentary threads of said verse, nothing should exist at all. If you remove the archetype of a table, no tables should exist. Not wood, not stone, not granite, nothing. So, the fact that they now further need a soul, which, from what I saw from the first text, doesn’t predate even the Demon World (even then, predate =/= transcend), I can’t see why this is Type 1.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Guys, it isn't necessary to add to ever single Soul Hax the Concept stuff, just add it a small, direct link to the statement saying that Names are part of the Soul and done, that makes all DMC Soul Hax conceptual without too many stuff

For Sparda's sake don't make the page worse than already is

 

[Sevil Natas]

FYI, I know nothing of this series, and was simply asked to join due to my knowledge of CM as a whole.

I’m not really sure what’s Type 1 CM about this. Predating it doesn’t exactly mean transcendence over reality, just like existing before the concept of causality doesn’t make you Type 5. The basic principles part is indeed interesting, as it does mention a primal, almost archetypal form of the laws the realities soon to come will follow, but without further elaboration I can’t see it.

More damning is the fact that these things can survive without names, the so called sources of their existence and power. The fundamental problem with this is, once you erase/lack the things that are the rudimentary threads of said verse, nothing should exist at all. If you remove the archetype of a table, no tables should exist. Not wood, not stone, not granite, nothing. So, the fact that they now further need a soul, which, from what I saw from the first text, doesn’t predate even the Demon World (even then, predate =/= transcend), I can’t see why this is Type 1.

i actually asked ultima on discord about that, he said from the statement it sounds more like type 1.
im assuming its because the concepts themselves are made up of the basic principles that predate creation and that is type 1?
also from the Conceptual Manipulation page it doesnt say you need to trancend reality to get type 1, just exist independent of it, or outside it if these concepts predate reality then they would have to exist completely idependent from it. not to mention, a type 2 concept would be destroyed if you destroy all the objects tied to such concept, the names themselves represent demon power and existed before creation became a thing (because in DMC, the demon world came before the regular universe) demons didnt even exist back then, let alone their power

also about the second part, their soul seems to act as the concept of their existence as without it they completely die, there's really no other way to interpret this, if the name IS itself vital to a demons existence then they wouldnt survive without it, a name only seems to represent their power, without it they're powerless to do anything, the PoC statement is weird in that regard, though it could've meant that its the concept that shapes them like the manga says

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Reminder that this is just my opinion, and what I got from the text and scans presented. Overall, I don’t even think my judgement has much weight anyways, again, I dunno the verse, so it’s no sweat off my back if it does or doesn’t get accepted. Just list me as neutral.

 

[Sevil Natas]

Reminder that this is just my opinion, and what I got from the text and scans presented. Overall, I don’t even think my judgement has much weight anyways, again, I dunno the verse, so it’s no sweat off my back if it does or doesn’t get accepted. Just list me as neutral.

i mean this has more to do with site standards than to do with the lore of the verse in question, the statement itself is pretty clear, names are concepts that are the basic principles that predate creation, going by the CM page, that should fit its definition of type 1, as in completely indpendent from reality, shapes reality and are not affected by anything that goes in that reality

so if you object to this, you really shouldnt doubt yourself because you dont know the verse

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Guys, it isn't necessary to add to ever single Soul Hax the Concept stuff, just add it a small, direct link to the statement saying that Names are part of the Soul and done, that makes all DMC Soul Hax conceptual without too many stuff

For Sparda's sake don't make the page worse than already is

Yeah, linking this only once in forst Soul hax section and tagging instead of copypasting.
Standard Procedure.

 

[Elizhaa]

I can see the concept being type 1.

I do want to see staff inputs on demon souls being conceptual as name; @Theglassman12 what do you think?

 

[DarlingAurora]

also Mid Tier demon Regeneration will be changed from Low-godly to Mid-Godly, as they can regenerate from their soul which is more fundamental than their concepts

Wait, I think that was High-Godly, but Mid-Godly is fine too..

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I can see the concept being type 1.

I do want to see staff inputs on demon souls being conceptual as name; @Theglassman12 what do you think?

Well thats nice on Type 1.

Well, my own interpretations of OP proposal says that Souls are just more abstract than concepts. Not necessarily that they are completely conceptual. More like partially.

But I have my own takes on this, I can write a response in next hour.
This can be discussed more at length.

Wait, I think that was High-Godly, but Mid-Godly is fine too..

Well high-godly requires regeneration from all 4 basic aspects of existance:- Body, soul, mind, concept.

Mid Godly is regeneration when even one out of these 4 aspects remain and you come back.

So we thought Mid Godly was more accurate.

 

[DarlingAurora]

Well high-godly requires regeneration from all 4 basic aspects of existance:- Body, soul, mind, concept.

Mid Godly is regeneration when even one out of these 4 aspects remain and you come back.

So we thought Mid Godly was more accurate.

okwy

 

[Theglassman12]

I'm neutral on the whole thing, rather wait for the game to come out and give more context for this than push for the upgrades but if this does go through then whatever.

 

[TokiNoOuja]

also Mid Tier demon Regeneration will be changed from Low-godly to Mid-Godly, as they can regenerate from their soul which is more fundamental than their concepts

Didnt regen after your fundamental aspect got destroyed is more to High Godly Regeneration?

 

[TokiNoOuja]

And btw i agree

 

[Fixxed]

Sorry can you give this feats, because i don't know about this verse

since the demon world came before the universe, their concepts would exist outside it, so by this we confirm that their names Are Type 1 Concepts

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Sorry can you give this feats, because i don't know about this verse

You want exactly what?
Do mean proof of Demon World being born?

 

[Fixxed]

You want exactly what?
Do mean proof of Demon World being born?

Yes (before the universe)

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Yes (before the universe)

1) World was born of Darkness.

This is birth of Demon World from Darkness.

2) Demon World is also known as World of Darkness.

Later down the line World of Light is born inside World of Darkness a.k.a Demon World.
World of Light being Human World.

3) It later got separated by Pluto into two separated space-times.

Mundus also known as King of Darkness wants reunites the World of Darkness and World of Light again.

So basically.

Pure Darkness-----> Birth of World of Darkness( Demon World) -------->Birth of World of Light(Human World) inside World of Darkness.----------> Seperation of both Worlds.

Pure Darkness preceded all of Creation, And Concepts of Names existed inside said Darkness before Demon World was born.

As revealed by this quote.

The Concepts:

名字的力量 从他们出生的那一刻起，名字就是恶魔们最神圣的东西之一。它们不仅代表着权力，还代表着它们自身存在的概念，其基本原则甚至早于恶魔世界本身的创造。 它表现为形成他们的灵魂的一部分，以及他们黑暗的心。 The power of a name From the moment of their birth, names are one of the most sacred things to demons. They represent not only power, but also the concept of their own existence, the basic principles of which predate even the creation of the demon world itself. It manifests itself as part of the soul that forms them, and their dark hearts.

-------------×------------×--------------

 

[Fixxed]

Agree with this