- 562
- 377
Agreed
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Demon Slayer / Kimetsu no Yaiba Transparent World Resistance Revisions
- Thread starter denzeelmao
- Start date
- Status
- 5,046
- 2,537
Okay, I have multiple things to say regarding the OP but I guess I should first start with the issue we'll have to clear up regardless of whether or not this gets accepted which would be where the term Selfless State comes from. This is kind of important to know since Transparent World is listed under Notable Attacks/Techniques on Tanjiro and Yoriichi's profiles which means that this part of their profiles will need to get rewritten accordingly if this gets accepted. I don't recall this term being mentioned in the manga and the Kimetsu no Yaiba Wiki page for the Selfless State doesn't give a source for where the term comes from. If there is no source for the term that we can find or it turns out that it is just name that the fandom gave the ability, then we might need to discuss what we should call it and how to write it down on the profiles since we should preferably not use headcanon.
The next point would be about the flashback that leads into Tanjiro unlocking Transparent World. Tanjuro never describes the Selfless State as something separate from Transparent World and only mentions the latter directly. In fact, he describes closing off the senses and choosing the most necessary things in those moments to make your mind invisible as a condition for Transparent World. It could be though that since pretty much no one outside of the family had the Selfless State and Transparent World and Tanjuro presumably knew no one outside of his family with Transparent World that for Tanjuro Selfless State and Transparent World were the same because he never saw someone have one of those things without the other.
The next thing would be regarding Akaza's words, thoughts and reactions regarding what he calls the Supreme Territory or the State of Anatta. Akaza identifies Tanjiro's Selfless State as the Supreme Territory/State of Anatta and thinks of it as something achievable through martial prowess though getting it that way apparently requires a lot of effort or extraordinary circumstances since Akaza didn't have it though it should be noted that his knowledge regarding it is presumably limited since he had only a faint feeling of it existing. Regardless, he is presumably one of the more knowledgeable characters regarding this outside of those who attained it. He considered Rengoku to be close to it and Rengoku was able to see Tanjiro's torn blood vessel while helping him stop the bleeding which would be a hint to the Transparent World. There is no hint regarding the Selfless State involving Rengoku though.
One thing that could probably be used to support the Selfless State and Transparent World being separate is the fact that Kokushibo, whom denzeelmao forgot to mention as someone who would be affected by this CRT in the OP, has Transparent World and Akaza despite knowing him for centuries still had only a faint feeling that the Supreme Territory/State of Anatta existed though it's unclear how much of Kokushibo's capabilities Akaza truly knew though we do know that they fought with Kokushibo winning through the databooks. Kokushibo can presumably consciously control the effects of his Battle Spirit since Muichiro suddenly started trembling a little bit after they encountered each other while Kokushibo wasn't even getting ready to attack though there is no confirmation of him being able to completely conceal it.
The idea that people confused controlling the blood flow with concealing one's presence via Transparent World is new to me though I guess it's still good to that point. That beind said, I'm pretty sure that only Gyomei controlled his blood flow to throw Kokushibo off. There is also the fact that all Kimetsu no Yaiba profiles have Extrasensory Perception that detects presences listed, so Kokushibo should still be able to detect Battle Spirit though he wouldn't be able to do it the way Akaza does. There is also how Gyomei, Muichiro and Obanai all unlock the Transparent World ability by focusing with their senses which comes pretty close with how the Selfless State is achieved.
Regarding the Selfless State being something that can only be used by Sun Breathing users, the same thing was actually believed to be the case about Crimson Red Nichirin Blades by Kokushibo. Kokushibo directly mentions how Gyomei, Sanemi and Muichiro don't use Sun Breathing but still managed to turn their blades red and Kokushibo never displayed the red blade ability. This combined with Akaza believing that he could achieve it, Rengoku apparently being close to the Transparent World despite not having unlocked his Demon Slayer Mark and Yoriichi believing that he could be surpassed (though this hasn't happened with any single person in the story) makes me believe that the Selfless shouldn't be considered something exclusively accessible for the users of Sun Breathing.
For the sake of clarifying whether or not the Selfless State and Transparent World should be separated on the profiles it would be good to know if there is a scene in the manga where the characters differentiate between these two things since that would be pretty decisive evidence.
The next point would be about the flashback that leads into Tanjiro unlocking Transparent World. Tanjuro never describes the Selfless State as something separate from Transparent World and only mentions the latter directly. In fact, he describes closing off the senses and choosing the most necessary things in those moments to make your mind invisible as a condition for Transparent World. It could be though that since pretty much no one outside of the family had the Selfless State and Transparent World and Tanjuro presumably knew no one outside of his family with Transparent World that for Tanjuro Selfless State and Transparent World were the same because he never saw someone have one of those things without the other.
The next thing would be regarding Akaza's words, thoughts and reactions regarding what he calls the Supreme Territory or the State of Anatta. Akaza identifies Tanjiro's Selfless State as the Supreme Territory/State of Anatta and thinks of it as something achievable through martial prowess though getting it that way apparently requires a lot of effort or extraordinary circumstances since Akaza didn't have it though it should be noted that his knowledge regarding it is presumably limited since he had only a faint feeling of it existing. Regardless, he is presumably one of the more knowledgeable characters regarding this outside of those who attained it. He considered Rengoku to be close to it and Rengoku was able to see Tanjiro's torn blood vessel while helping him stop the bleeding which would be a hint to the Transparent World. There is no hint regarding the Selfless State involving Rengoku though.
One thing that could probably be used to support the Selfless State and Transparent World being separate is the fact that Kokushibo, whom denzeelmao forgot to mention as someone who would be affected by this CRT in the OP, has Transparent World and Akaza despite knowing him for centuries still had only a faint feeling that the Supreme Territory/State of Anatta existed though it's unclear how much of Kokushibo's capabilities Akaza truly knew though we do know that they fought with Kokushibo winning through the databooks. Kokushibo can presumably consciously control the effects of his Battle Spirit since Muichiro suddenly started trembling a little bit after they encountered each other while Kokushibo wasn't even getting ready to attack though there is no confirmation of him being able to completely conceal it.
The idea that people confused controlling the blood flow with concealing one's presence via Transparent World is new to me though I guess it's still good to that point. That beind said, I'm pretty sure that only Gyomei controlled his blood flow to throw Kokushibo off. There is also the fact that all Kimetsu no Yaiba profiles have Extrasensory Perception that detects presences listed, so Kokushibo should still be able to detect Battle Spirit though he wouldn't be able to do it the way Akaza does. There is also how Gyomei, Muichiro and Obanai all unlock the Transparent World ability by focusing with their senses which comes pretty close with how the Selfless State is achieved.
Regarding the Selfless State being something that can only be used by Sun Breathing users, the same thing was actually believed to be the case about Crimson Red Nichirin Blades by Kokushibo. Kokushibo directly mentions how Gyomei, Sanemi and Muichiro don't use Sun Breathing but still managed to turn their blades red and Kokushibo never displayed the red blade ability. This combined with Akaza believing that he could achieve it, Rengoku apparently being close to the Transparent World despite not having unlocked his Demon Slayer Mark and Yoriichi believing that he could be surpassed (though this hasn't happened with any single person in the story) makes me believe that the Selfless shouldn't be considered something exclusively accessible for the users of Sun Breathing.
For the sake of clarifying whether or not the Selfless State and Transparent World should be separated on the profiles it would be good to know if there is a scene in the manga where the characters differentiate between these two things since that would be pretty decisive evidence.
Last edited:
- 550
- 202
- Thread starter
- #43
Yes, we can differentiate that because there was a feat performed. Saying the same about Supreme Territory/Selfless State would be weird.
No other TPW user besides Tanjuro, Tanjiro, or Yoriichi showcased this "no intent." They all had an intent.
We can call it the State of Anatta.
This would just mean they are separate but connected abilities. Imagine a skill tree, Where it goes like this.
Mark
V
TPW
V
Selfless State/State of Anatta.
This would mean the reason Rengoku, Akaza, or other TPW users not achieving it would be because they aren't mastered sun breathers.
About Rengoku seeing that blood vessel we can call it PIS since it was a one-time thing for the sake of the plot. But it does help the case.
None of the TPW users display this, they all have emotion:
Muichiro, Gyomei, and Obanai all were willing to fight and had intent to fight. . Tanjiro yelled once, calmed down, and decapitated Akaza with no emotion whatsoever.
And I haven't seen an answer for
"No hair color change, no mark expanding, eyes aren't clear, and there's still an emotion on their faces. I don't even know why I have to argue for this since they aren't even confirmed users, they're just put there with headcanon."
Last edited:
- 550
- 202
- Thread starter
- #44
I don't think they controlled all their senses. They were just like
"LOOK CLOSER!!" and it just happened for them. Nothing like Tanjiro's.
And why would Kokushibo be able to detect Battle Spirit? Maybe he feels something else, we wouldn't know. That would be headcanon to say he feels battle spirit tbh.
- 550
- 202
- Thread starter
- #45
Just went through it again. Looks like im right.
Gyomei just goes "I'll observe him to the best of my abilities!!" nothing about closing off senses.
Same for obanai. Gyomei just tells him to "Look closer."
Not like tanjiro's state at all.
Muichiro has no explanation on how he unlocks it, he just does. So IDK how he got it.
Gyomei just goes "I'll observe him to the best of my abilities!!" nothing about closing off senses.
Same for obanai. Gyomei just tells him to "Look closer."
Not like tanjiro's state at all.
Muichiro has no explanation on how he unlocks it, he just does. So IDK how he got it.
- 18,393
- 14,311
There is, he is a talented guy. I think that came from his talent.
- 550
- 202
- Thread starter
- #47
me when i get op state from being talented
- 18,393
- 14,311
It is my explanation, the guy is talented, dude became one of the strongest hashiras by an early age and trained for some months, tell me how did he do that?
- 550
- 202
- Thread starter
- #49
- 18,393
- 14,311
Can you also give me a canon explanation of why he is talented? I appreciate it.
- 550
- 202
- Thread starter
- #51
He is Kokushibos descendant, so him getting some kind of boost from that makes sense, if not, I don't know. there doesn't really seem to be any other explanation.
- 18,393
- 14,311
- So him unlocking it due to being Kokushibos descendant is also no explanation? Common sense...
- 550
- 202
- Thread starter
- #53
idk man chalk it up to bad writing
- 550
- 202
- Thread starter
- #54
bump
- 5,046
- 2,537
Kokushibo is able to detect presences and malicious intent like every other Kimetsu no Yaiba character on the Wiki and technically every character feels Battle Spirit if they get affected by it since we classify aura-based Fear Manipulation and Paralysis Inducement as effects of Battle Spirit. I'm not saying that he can detect it the way Akaza can do with his compass since that is on an entirely different level in regards to perceiving Battle Spirit.
I wouldn't really consider it bad writing since Muichiro being talented is established fairly early on and isn't revealed at a convenient critical moment. Him unlocking Transparent World also fits with Gyomei doing that exact same thing. We've also had instances of demon slayers growing stronger, faster or better in the middle of battle and it was a fairly tense situation, so I'm fine with that.
I'll probably write more later.
Last edited:
- 550
- 202
- Thread starter
- #56
Kokushibo didn't say he concealed their battle spirit though. He just said he manipulated his blood flow. This would mean Kokushibo doesn't feel the battle spirit, he most likely feels something else.
- 5,046
- 2,537
Yeah, I did mention the blood flow part myself, you don't need to remind me of that. I never said that Kokushibo said something like that and the blood flow is part of what Transparent World uses to predict someone's next move, so it being possible to use that to throw him off via Body Control isn't too surprising.
- 550
- 202
- Thread starter
- #58
I see. So what's your thoughts so far?
- 5,046
- 2,537
I've already said that I'll probably write more later, so that's exactly what I'm going to do.
- 18,393
- 14,311
Him unlocking transparent World is literally due to the fact he is talented. Koko could also unlock it due to his hard training, and the fact he is his ancestor just proves more way he is one of strongest hashiras in the list.
- 550
- 202
- Thread starter
- #61
idk bout that bro, being the descendant of UM1 doesnt automatically make you top 3-4 hashira
yoloninja3000
He/Him- 108
- 102
- 5,046
- 2,537
In the translation that I've looked up that's where it is called the State of Anatta.
yoloninja3000
He/Him- 108
- 102
From what i gathered from typing Muga no Kyōchi on google its selfless state
- 5,046
- 2,537
Did you get Muga no Kyōchi from the Japanese version of the manga?
yoloninja3000
He/Him- 108
- 102
I think i found the problem, muga means both selfless and anatnam which is 'non-self'
At least that's what i found on google
- 5,046
- 2,537
Okay.
- 550
- 202
- Thread starter
- #68
So it can be called either. Cool.
- 550
- 202
- Thread starter
- #69
bump
- 550
- 202
- Thread starter
- #70
Bump
- 15,799
- 5,702
I am the person who gave them that resistance iirc, so, I can see the flaw in my logic. Agree.
- 5,046
- 2,537
So, this is purely based on feats with no statements to back it up which makes the idea of the Selfless State being exclusive to Sun Breathing users rather dubious. Even if there isn't someone without Sun Breathing that has that ability that doesn't mean that it is restricted to Sun Breathing users since the same was once the case with Crimson Red Nichirin Blades. It would be a different case if we knew for sure that the Selfless State can only be attained due to the properties of Sun Breathing which would beg the question how Akaza could have had a faint feeling of that existing then if it is inherently impossible to attain unless you fulfill a really specific condition that he couldn't have know about without outside help.
Sure, Akaza might not necessarily know all the details but we don't have any other instance of someone using a term for this ability, so that will have to suffice.
If they are indeed separate, then that can indeed look like this. I did speculate that for Tanjuro these abilities might have been the same due to never having seen someone have one of these abilities without the other one in which case it was probably the norm for the Kamado family to attain the Transparent World ability whenever they achieved the Selfless State.
I can see Sun Breathing helping in unlocking the Selfless State but I disagree with Sun Breathing being a requirement. The same was thought about Crimson Red Nichirin Blades only to be proven wrong centuries after Yoriichi's death and it also contradicts Akaza's statement of Rengoku being close to reaching that state since he doesn't even know anything about Sun Breathing unlike his father and has never seen Tanjiro using it, so he's very far from being a Sun Breathing user. Based on the context of Rengoku being able to see into Tanjiro's body, which is presumably supposed to be foreshadowing for Transparent World, shortly before Akaza shows up this ability is probably connected to him being close to the Selfless State though that can be due to Transparent World and the Selfless State being connected.
Gyomei told himself to sharpen his senses in chapter 173 and you also have to consider that he is blind, so he wasn't exactly able to just look closer in the first place. Outside of thinking and having flashbacks Tanjiro also just focused in order to unlock Transparent World.
I'm not entirely sure how exactly we should handle these translation details but I believe that State of Anatta would definitely be fine here.
Last edited:
- 550
- 202
- Thread starter
- #73
Well, the guy who gave them the resistance agreed, so can we remove it?
Well, He just told obanai to "look" and achieved it that way. And Muichiro hasn't shown any signs of this at all, he just unlocks it. And even then, Gyomei still showed emotion and intent to fight. This should be enough proof to separate them. They all had emotion on their faces except Tanjiro, he didn't even speak. He was just thinking. He was so focused on thinking and had no emotion on his face that he couldn't even dodge Akaza's end style. But he gets hit by it. That's why his forehead starts bleeding and such.
The other stuff I cannot respond to right now. I will get back to this in a moment.
- 550
- 202
- Thread starter
- #74
Wait a second. This Rengoku feat proves my entire point.
If Rengoku was even close to achieving Transparent World, his intent should've been concealed.
But the Compass Needle predicts him very easily. This would support the fact that they are separate abilities. If Rengoku DID see Tanjiro's blood vessel, which would mean he has some type of Transparent World, but since what it was wasn't revealed until later, it wouldn't be named at the time. This should've concealed his battle spirit, but it didn't.
Well if it wasn't TPW... Then Akaza shouldn't have commented on it by saying he was close to achieving it. I believe he was referring to the selfless state here since he confirms this later on. What he has been searching for wasn't TPW, it was State of Anatta/Selfless State.
- 5,046
- 2,537
Milly Rocking Bandit agreeing is one thing but it doesn't change the conditions for this getting accepted or mean that we suddenly have nothing to discuss anymore.
The way Gyomei phrases it to Obanai is certainly a lot more vague compared to what Gyomei told himself which kinda reminds me of Genya stating that Gyomei is terrible at teaching. He does seem to reference how he unlocked this ability himself and Obanai just briefly saw into Muzan's body with him displaying no further feats with Transparent World. We don't exactly get to see Muichiro's perspective on how he unlocked Transparent World, so we can't really judge his methodology here or use it as evidence. Actually, Tanjiro must have done some dodging since that would have otherwise killed him. Tanjiro not being able to dodge due to thinking and feeling no emotions kinda defeats the purpose of Transparent World and the Selfless State.
Rengoku was just close to achieving it and the only thing he demonstrated was being able to see into Tanjiro's body which is just one single aspect of Transparent World without any of the other ones being displayed. There is no reason to assume that his intent would be concealed since that would mean that he wouldn't be close to achieving but would have achieved it instead. If Transparent World has nothing to do with what Akaza was seeking, then that one scene with Rengoku and Tanjiro's injury would seem rather out of place from a narrative perspective.
- 550
- 202
- Thread starter
- #76
He gets hit by it regardless. Maybe because he was trying to understand what he was perceiving?
(This is from viz media, so it's official translation.)
He says the domain of supremacy he was chasing was nothing less than a Selfless State.
This would mean Akaza was trying to get Selfless State, not TPW.
- 5,046
- 2,537
He did bleed from the head, so he was indeed hit. I doubt that Tanjiro simply let himself get hit which means that he simply wasn't able to completely avoid the attack like I thought in some past threads.He gets hit by it regardless. Maybe because he was trying to understand what he was perceiving?
(This is from viz media, so it's official translation.)
He says the domain of supremacy he was chasing was nothing less than a Selfless State.
This would mean Akaza was trying to get Selfless State, not TPW.
Akaza wouldn't know about the term Transparent World, so using the name he uses as evidence doesn't work. The only things he can really use to infer anything regarding Transparent World and the Selfless State is his vague feeling and him recognizing that Tanjiro achieved it. If Selfless State is the official translation, then the term should work for the profiles.
- 550
- 202
- Thread starter
- #78
Wouldn't he know from his battle with kokushibo?
- 5,046
- 2,537
I think you forgot that Akaza only had a faint feeling. If Akaza knew that Kokushibo achieved this, then he would have known that for sure. There is also no guarantee that Kokushibo ever directly talked about his Transparent World ability with Akaza. It's extremely unlikely that Akaza was completely ignorant about what Kokushibo was capable of but we also don't know what exactly he knew about Kokushibo specifically and it doesn't help that he didn't make any comparisons between Tanjiro's usage of Transparent World and Kokushibo. The Transparent World term comes from Tanjuro and Tanjiro and I don't think that we've seen any other character use this term, so unless Tanjiro told them about it they probably don't know that name and as far as I know we have no confirmation for what Yoriichi and Kokushibo called it. Yoriichi most likely didn't bother naming it for at least the first 17 years of his life since it was simply an inherent part of his perception since he was born.
- 550
- 202
- Thread starter
- #80
Bump.
- Status
