Does Demon Slayer have a UES?

[SeijiSetto]

See title. A lot of the verse are either 8-B+ or 8-A upscaling from Doma's ice scuplture feat, but that's exactly it - it's a temperature change feat.
Typically these things don't scale to physicals without a reason, which is exactly what I'm asking about.

 

[Ped2018]

Don't know much about the argument it was made, but i think it has to do with the fact that all Demon Blood Arts are created from their blood

 

[Vietthai96]

No

 

[Metalballrun]

I remember raising concerns about it, but that was sooo long ago and the discussions about KnY was rather slow that I forgot and people seemed to have accepted that Blood Demon Arts have UES that translates like that somehow.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

KnY lacks any UES. I have argued about this years ago. The only thing we know about Blood Art is that its used to create some techniques, but we dont have any statement about it being 1:1 with the stats

 

[SuperStar]

It’s accepted that Blood Demon Art scales to physicals. Not sure why tho.

 

[SeijiSetto]

It’s accepted that Blood Demon Art scales to physicals. Not sure why tho.

this is exactly the problem - there NEEDS to be reasoning lol

 

[SuperStar]

this is exactly the problem - there NEEDS to be reasoning lol

Tag @Nehz_XZX He explained it last time I think.

 

[SunDaGamer]

Nehz answered this question for me on the Demon Slayer General Discussion

Scaling between Blood Demon Arts and physical power:

• Demons and Blood Demon Arts are intimately connected to each other to the point where the latter shares the former's weakness to sunlight. It is therefore plausible to view them as essentially being a part of the demons.
• Demons do not have Blood Demon Arts by default but instead need to reach a certain amount of strength to attain one which shows that their personal strength correlates with Blood Demon Arts.
• Demons grow stronger by devouring humans or receiving Muzan's blood, so one can easily infer from that that a demon's physical strength and the strength of their Blood Demon Art would grow together.
• Several demons have shown that they can physically fight those who can contend with the strength of their Blood Demon Arts with there being no case where a demon is explicitly weaker than their Blood Demon Art which sets a pretty consistent precedent especially with the other points.
• Kanao was surprised by the amount of strength Doma had left when he used his Blood Demon Art at the end of his fight against her and Inosuke which indicates that poison like Shinobu's would weaken a demon's Blood Demon Art together with their physical strength which actually fits with how a poisoned Gyutaro could be pushed down by Tanjiro and needed some time to use his Blood Demon Art.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

This has been discussed enough times for me to wonder if a note or blog for this is necessary. That being said, if it's found that the evidence is insufficient according to the standards, then I won't exactly do anything to prevent the appropriate changes from being made. I've made the effort to search through my past comments for the posts that dealt with this matter and got five links in chronological order:

• https://vsbattles.com/threads/demon...h-of-discussion-5th-form.108349/#post-3383821
• https://vsbattles.com/threads/demon...h-of-discussion-5th-form.108349/#post-3398396
• https://vsbattles.com/threads/kimet...ision-is-that-long.110173/page-2#post-3562192
• https://vsbattles.com/threads/demon-slayer-pretty-big-downgrade.121517/page-4#post-4016498
• https://vsbattles.com/threads/demon...scussion-5th-form.108349/page-21#post-6075567

If there are any questions that aren't covered or insufficiently answered, feel free to ask me. There might also be some posts that further discuss the matter from me and others after the initial posts that I've linked that might also be of interest if you want to look into this.

 

[SeijiSetto]

it's specifically that it's a temperature change feat that bugs me

i see absolutely no problem with physicals scaling in line with BDAs (i.e getting stronger physically means stronger BDA) but temperature change is thermal energy, as i saw LoK had said to you many times.

if a character (say they're 8-C) made a fireball that got 8-B results, you wouldn't equalize the energy used to heat up the air and whatnot into the kinetic energy their punches can deliver without some kind of supernatural system like ki from DB or chakra from Naruto that shows "these guys use the same supernatural energy they use to set things aflame to make their punches stronger"

 

[Nehz_XZX]

it's specifically that it's a temperature change feat that bugs me

i see absolutely no problem with physicals scaling in line with BDAs (i.e getting stronger physically means stronger BDA) but temperature change is thermal energy, as i saw LoK had said to you many times.

if a character (say they're 8-C) made a fireball that got 8-B results, you wouldn't equalize the energy used to heat up the air and whatnot into the kinetic energy their punches can deliver without some kind of supernatural system like ki from DB or chakra from Naruto that shows "these guys use the same supernatural energy they use to set things aflame to make their punches stronger"

Are you saying that the thermal energy wouldn't scale to the Blood Demon Art and that it is independent of the strength of the Blood Demon Art itself?

 

[Pedonar]

what is UES

 

[Nehz_XZX]

what is UES

Universal Energy Systems

Universal Energy Systems are a fairly common element in fictional stories possessed by certain characters to display incredible feats and powers, often being born out of fantastical or otherwise otherworldly elements such as Magic, Chakra, Chi and a myriad of other possible energy systems. Often...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[SeijiSetto]

Are you saying that the thermal energy wouldn't scale to the Blood Demon Art and that it is independent of the strength of the Blood Demon Art itself?

no.
what i'm saying is that the BDA wouldn't scale to physicals unless there's some power system that provides reasoning for it to do so.
temperature change is perfectly fine to be rated as AP (same way characters can get AP/environmental destruction for making storms or whatever), but does not become Striking Strength/Durability without something saying "yeah the energy used in this attack could, in theory, be used to amp physicals"

 

[Nehz_XZX]

no.
what i'm saying is that the BDA wouldn't scale to physicals unless there's some power system that provides reasoning for it to do so.
temperature change is perfectly fine to be rated as AP, but does not become Striking Strength/Durability without something saying "yeah the energy used in this attack could, in theory, be used to amp physicals"

So, you are arguing that either it's possible to strengthen a Blood Demon Art independently from physical strength, that Blood Demon Arts are in general stronger than the physical strength of demons or that it can vary from case to case?

 

[SeijiSetto]

So, you are arguing that either it's possible to strengthen a Blood Demon Art independently from physical strength, that Blood Demon Arts are in general stronger than the physical strength of demons or that it can vary from case to case?

the 2nd, i guess? i don't know what the alternative solution is

i'm just saying that without an energy system of some kind, i don't think temperature change feats should scale to striking strength.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

the 2nd, i guess? i don't know what the alternative solution is

i'm just saying that without an energy system of some kind, i don't think temperature change feats should scale to striking strength.

Rui would disprove that kind of notion for at least physical toughness and many demons can consistently physically keep up with those who can contend with the strength of their Blood Demon Arts.

 

[Arkenis]

A UES isn't always needed to validate such scaling. Stuff like BDA being weakened or amped by the demon themselves growing stronger shows BDA isn't disconnected from the power of the demon. The fact BDA are used in combat would also support this and how Doma was already weakened by 100s of time iirc.

 

[Armorchompy]

A UES isn't always needed to validate such scaling. Stuff like BDA being weakened or amped by the demon themselves growing stronger shows BDA isn't disconnected from the power of the demon.

Something being tied to your power doesn't mean you scale to it. I could make examples (and I will if you want) but it shouldn't necessarily be assumed to be a 1 to 1 thing. In fact, Blood Demon Arts, while magical, are also a biological function of some form, and being related to a demon's state of being would come naturally with that, but I wouldn't extrapolate that into them being equal to their AP.

The fact BDA are used in combat would also support this and how Doma was already weakened by 100s of time iirc.

I also wouldn't really say BDAs are all the same case in terms of scaling to the user given that there's plenty of hax/noncombat ones.

 

[Arkenis]

Something being tied to your power doesn't mean you scale to it. I could make examples (and I will if you want) but it shouldn't necessarily be assumed to be a 1 to 1 thing. In fact, Blood Demon Arts, while magical, are also a biological function of some form, and being related to a demon's state of being would come naturally with that, but I wouldn't extrapolate that into them being equal to their AP.

No the reasons provided by nehz are pretty clear for scaling, maybe those other verses aren't as clear or give such statements. And also something like

• Kanao was surprised by the amount of strength Doma had left when he used his Blood Demon Art at the end of his fight against her and Inosuke which indicates that poison like Shinobu's would weaken a demon's Blood Demon Art together with their physical strength which actually fits with how a poisoned Gyutaro could be pushed down by Tanjiro and needed some time to use his Blood Demon Art.

Shows that the use of the BDA isn't anything impressive compared to Doma's overall power.

I also wouldn't really say BDAs are all the same case in terms of scaling to the user given that there's plenty of hax/noncombat ones.

Then those wouldn't be used for scaling? We not gonna throw them all out cuz some are hax based lol.

 

[Armorchompy]

No the reasons provided by nehz are pretty clear for scaling, maybe those other verses aren't as clear or give such statements. And also something like

I don't really think so, sorry.

Shows that the use of the BDA isn't anything impressive compared to Doma's overall power.

It's not like this early 1900s lady is going to know much energy creating ice takes, to use that as an argument seems pretty silly to me. The general idea of "wow we weakened him and yet he's still capable of making big stuff with his power, I thought he'd barely be able to move" is obviously going on, but I wouldn't read further than that into it, seems pretty weak to base a UES off of.

Then those wouldn't be used for scaling? We not gonna throw them all out cuz some are hax based lol.

I'm not saying that everyone scales off their BDAs- that's the point, actually, you can't set a precedent when all of them have their own unique mechanics. Hell there's the whole Infinity Castle which sort of just destroys the idea of every demon being comparable to their BDA- even those that can be tiered.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

It's not like this early 1900s lady is going to know much energy creating ice takes, to use that as an argument seems pretty silly to me. The general idea of "wow we weakened him and yet he's still capable of making big stuff with his power, I thought he'd barely be able to move" is obviously going on, but I wouldn't read further than that into it, seems pretty weak to base a UES off of.

It might be worth to keep in mind that terms related to thermal energy were being established in 1847 though Kanao wasn't in a situation where you would bother with mental calculations regardless of her level of knowledge regarding this kind of matter.

 

[Arkenis]

It's not like this early 1900s lady is going to know much energy creating ice takes, to use that as an argument seems pretty silly to me. The general idea of "wow we weakened him and yet he's still capable of making big stuff with his power, I thought he'd barely be able to move" is obviously going on, but I wouldn't read further than that into it, seems pretty weak to base a UES off of.

Not looking much into it tbf, she says this, calls this feat strength and is surprised by how massive it is even though he's so weakened. What else is needed here to go "weakened Doma can do this while physically nerfed, his full power self would be far above it"

I'm not saying that everyone scales off their BDAs- that's the point, actually, you can't set a precedent when all of them have their own unique mechanics. Hell there's the whole Infinity Castle which sort of just destroys the idea of every demon being comparable to their BDA- even those that can be tiered.

The ones that are scaleable to ap can be scaled then, the hax ones can't, this is setting the precedent for ones that can be calced. The castle's creation is a separate issue entirely that has to do with creation feats themselves not scaling overall. And the castle's size is unknown and thus tiering isn't gonna work.

 

[SeijiSetto]

Not looking much into it tbf, she says this, calls this feat strength and is surprised by how massive it is even though he's so weakened. What else is needed here to go "weakened Doma can do this while physically nerfed, his full power self would be far above it.

nobody's disagreeing with healthy Doma being unfathomably stronger than dying-of-700x-wisteria-dose Doma.
what i (and presumably armor) are disagreeing with is Doma, regardless of how healthy he is, being able to deliver punches with the same energy he used to make the ice structures.
you gotta prove that, via some energy system, the energy he used to do the ice feat (thermal energy) can be used to amp his physical stats to a similar extent.

 

[Arkenis]

nobody's disagreeing with healthy Doma being unfathomably stronger than dying-of-700x-wisteria-dose Doma.
what i (and presumably armor) are disagreeing with is Doma, regardless of how healthy he is, being able to deliver punches with the same energy he used to make the ice structures.
you gotta prove that, via some energy system, the energy he used to do the ice feat (thermal energy) can be used to amp his physical stats to a similar extent.

Yeah... that's just some insane skepticism lmao, we got a 700x weaker statement, Kanao referring to the feat as a display of strength, and DBA being very much linked and effected by the demons own physical health.

 

[Armorchompy]

Not looking much into it tbf, she says this, calls this feat strength and is surprised by how massive it is even though he's so weakened. What else is needed here to go "weakened Doma can do this while physically nerfed, his full power self would be far above it"

I mean I'm not denying the latter part, but that itself doesn't imply 1 to 1 scaling. Not to mention, from the wording it seems like she might just be talking about stamina.

The ones that are scaleable to ap can be scaled then, the hax ones can't, this is setting the precedent for ones that can be calced. The castle's creation is a separate issue entirely that has to do with creation feats themselves not scaling overall.

If a temperature feat can be scaled, then a creation one would be too. They're both kinds of energies that don't really convert to AP directly but if one does so does the other.

And the castle's size is unknown and thus tiering isn't gonna work.

Besides the very real possibility of it being infinite, and ignoring the possibility of distance calcs, it's shown to be the size of a city at minimum. Considering that it's a dimension of its own, that'd get very heavy - a very rough calc using the smallest city here got Low 7-C just using the weight of air, which is itself a massive lowball. And that's without counting the KE of it shifting around.

 

[SeijiSetto]

Yeah... that's just some insane skepticism lmao, we got a 700x weaker statement

he's dying to 700x a lethal dose of poison. this would massively affect his strength, of course, but it's not 700x weaker.
it also provides no evidence towards "the same energy he used to freeze the air, he can also use to amp his physicals"

Kanao referring to the feat as a display of strength

okay? still doesn't say "energy used to freeze air can be used to amp physicals"

DBA being very much linked and effected by the demons own physical health.

(again) okay?
it being linked to their physical health is... what i would expect?
if someone's physically like 6-B with a 5-B attack, if they're on the brink of death i wouldn't expect the attack to still be 5-B.
almost every attack in a person's arsenal (if it's not from an external weapon or something) would probably be weaker if they were dying while doing it, lol.
still provides no evidence towards "the same energy he used to freeze the air, he can also use to amp his physicals"

 

[Arkenis]

he's dying to 700x a lethal dose of poison. this would massively affect his strength, of course, but it's not 700x weaker.
it also provides no evidence towards "the same energy he used to freeze the air, he can also use to amp his physicals"

okay? still doesn't say "energy used to freeze air can be used to amp physicals"

(again) okay?
it being linked to their physical health is... what i would expect?
if someone's physically like 6-B with a 5-B attack, if they're on the brink of death i wouldn't expect the attack to still be 5-B.
almost every attack in a person's arsenal (if it's not from an external weapon or something) would probably be weaker if they were dying while doing it, lol.
still provides no evidence towards "the same energy he used to freeze the air, he can also use to amp his physicals"

make a crt instead of discussing it here, no need to disagree in a qna thread.

 

[SeijiSetto]

make a crt instead of discussing it here, no need to disagree in a qna thread.

i planned to.
i just wanted to ask if there was a UES established that i wasn't aware of before i went through with it, which there doesn't appear to be.

 

[Armorchompy]

Do you want to make a new one or just want me to move this to CRT?

 

[SeijiSetto]

Do you want to make a new one or just want me to move this to CRT?

i'll probably make a new one where i can write a nicer OP and phrase myself better. thanks for offering though

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Besides the very real possibility of it being infinite, and ignoring the possibility of distance calcs, it's shown to be the size of a city at minimum. Considering that it's a dimension of its own, that'd get very heavy - a very rough calc using the smallest city here got Low 7-C just using the weight of air, which is itself a massive lowball. And that's without counting the KE of it shifting around.

I'm not entirely sure about the size and the kinetic energy myself though you have some interesting points here. I'd like to note though that we can safely exclude an infinite size since Nakime could have put an infinite distance between the demon slayers in that case unless we want to consider them as having infinite speed or even faster.

 

[Armorchompy]

I wouldn't say infinite size would necessarily mean she'd be able to immediately wrangle all of the infinity at once, it's not like she ever really puts them a whole city away

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I wouldn't say infinite size would necessarily mean she'd be able to immediately wrangle all of the infinity at once, it's not like she ever really puts them a whole city away

Doesn't her whole Blood Demon Art revolve around maintaining and controlling it? It even collapsed upon her death, so I don't find the idea of suggesting that it is somehow infinite while controlling infinity is beyond the scope of what her Blood Demon Art allows to be very believable or plausible.

 

[Armorchompy]

Doesn't her whole Blood Demon Art revolve around maintaining and controlling it? It even collapsed upon her death, so I don't find the idea of suggesting that it is somehow infinite while controlling infinity is beyond the scope of what her Blood Demon Art allows to be very believable or plausible.

Having control over something doesn't mean you have 100% flawless control over it. Regardless it'd be a pretty massive feat even if not infinite.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Having control over something doesn't mean you have 100% flawless control over it. Regardless it'd be a pretty massive feat even if not infinite.

The control would need to be infinitesimally smaller than the infinite size and outside of the name and the lack of a size statement nothing even suggests that the size is infinite or that it could be infinite which would surpass pretty much everything else the series has shown by far. Keep in mind that Muzan also had control over it and if Nakime could use her Blood Demon Art to maintain the whole supposed infinity, then nothing could have stopped Muzan from simply putting an infinite distance between everyone using brute power since he wouldn't need to bother with the whole matter of maintaining the pocket dimension.

 

[Armorchompy]

Alright, let's just stick to "it's big enough that it's still way higher than anything else shown in the verse even if it's finite" then

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Alright, let's just stick to "it's big enough that it's still way higher than anything else shown in the verse even if it's finite" then

Yeah, I can agree with it being a big space as long as we don't go with infinite size.