• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

DC/Vertigo Cosmology Redo(Part 1 of 2)

Zauriel should also potentially get upgraded too. At least, a key for DeMatteis Cosmology for being a Shining One and his female version briefly being wielded by the Presence in Legends of DC Universe #36.
 
Am I right?

Spectre Rating High1-A+/0 (One with God). Joker : High1-A (he defeated Spectre)

Phantom stranger: Unknown ?

Doctor Fate High1-A (scaling lord of order )

Zatanna High1-A (defeat pralaya avatar)

John Constantine/Swamp Thing : 1-A or High1-A ?

Supergirl: High1-A (She is one of the angels and can fight with specter. She states that she is a servant of God)
 
Hirotoswnn1x said:
Spectre Rating High1-A+/0 (One with God). Joker : High1-A (he defeated Spectre)
Click to expand...
I would rather remove his Oversoul key. Mainly due to the fact, merging with God means losing one's individuality. Hence he wouldn’t be “Spectre” at this point. If we keep it then technically every profile would be 0.
Hirotoswnn1x said:
Phantom stranger: Unknown?
Click to expand...
High 1-A is sufficient. He can fight the Spectre on even grounds.
Hirotoswnn1x said:
Doctor Fate High1-A (scaling lord of order )
Click to expand...
Probably.
Hirotoswnn1x said:
Zatanna High1-A (defeat pralaya avatar)
Click to expand...
No.
Hirotoswnn1x said:
John Constantine/Swamp Thing : 1-A or High1-A?
Click to expand...
Swamp Thing, probably.
Hirotoswnn1x said:
Supergirl: High1-A (She is one of the angels and can fight with specter. She states that she is a servant of God)
Click to expand...
Probably.
 
Hirotoswnn1x said:
Supergirl: High1-A (She is one of the angels and can fight with specter. She states that she is a servant of God)
Click to expand...
No, Supergirl wouldn't be upgraded. For whatever reason, Linda Danvers doesn't have a profile. Which is why I excluded mentioning her again alongside Zauriel. Matrix isn't the same Supergirl as Kara. Unless she would get a key in the main Supergirl page, which would be a bit weird.
 
@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Everything12 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @PrinceofPein @Planck69 @Ovy7 @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @Kerwin0831 @RatherClueless @DarkGrath

What do you think of the suggested tiering in the DeMatteis section of the following post?

vsbattles.com

DC/Vertigo Cosmology Redo(Part 1 of 2)

Hi, since the the tiering system has been changed not too long ago. I decided to overlook the DC Cosmology blog page and wanted to revise the tiering and explanation on the blog. @Elizio33 is handling the Crisis Cosmology section of the blog. So I decided to handle J.M. DeMatteis and Vertigo...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
Antvasima said:
@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Everything12 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @PrinceofPein @Planck69 @Ovy7 @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @Kerwin0831 @RatherClueless @DarkGrath

What do you think of the suggested tiering in the DeMatteis section of the following post?

vsbattles.com

DC/Vertigo Cosmology Redo(Part 1 of 2)

Hi, since the the tiering system has been changed not too long ago. I decided to overlook the DC Cosmology blog page and wanted to revise the tiering and explanation on the blog. @Elizio33 is handling the Crisis Cosmology section of the blog. So I decided to handle J.M. DeMatteis and Vertigo...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Click to expand...
The only thing to be discussed is the material and metaphysical realm. Glass is neutral but given he said he'll wait for an expert opinion(Ultima) then I would think it's pretty clear 0 and High 1-A+ were accepted.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
The only thing to be discussed is the material and metaphysical realm. Glass is neutral but given he said he'll wait for an expert opinion(Ultima) then I would think it's pretty clear 0 and High 1-A+ were accepted.
Click to expand...
Please elaborate. This is a very important change, and I do not remember the discussion here well anymore. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. Which staff members have said what here so far?
Click to expand...
Qwas has agreed. Glass and Elizio are neutral. Ultima agrees on 0 and High 1-A+. I had a chat with him about my tiers and we talked through some stuff after I sent him 50+ scans to look at. So I wanna hear his opinion again.
 
Last edited:
Reading everything over I agree with most of the proposals for the J.M. DeMatteis section, especially the Pralaya and the Divine Presence upgrades.

Though due to ProfectusInfinity's counterarguments I'm on the fence/neutral on the Material Plane being 1-A.
Click to expand...
I'll explain it to you since I didn't really argue that hard for it with my discussion with Profectus. Which doesn't really ascertain anything about it being 1-A.

So, we already know the whole of Creation is just a dream from God. As DeMatteis said previously “The Dream is folded infinite amount of time:”
Fan: Sir, I've read your Silver Surfer work. In that comics, you introduced the concept of the universe folded inside infinite dreams. As far as I know, you have introduced a similar concept in dc comics. Are the two concepts intended to be the same?
https://imgur.com/gallery/jWmIGW0
J.M. DeMatteis: Yes. In a general, philosophic way
Click to expand...
This is important because it's more relevant in the Silver Surfer scan but DeMatteis has a habit of recycling his work. However, what's more important is that the Oceans of Dreams convey the entire hierarchy given that the worlds come from it.

The important notion was from Spectre when one of its aspects mentioned the existence of “limitless planes of existence.” This is important because when Materna shows Helen that the material is the most basic level of existence, she traverses into another plane that's higher than the material as it is “deeper” within the Dream, but she never truly leaves the Gross plane of existence as she didn't reach the Stuble realms(Astral Plane) nor spiritual(Heaven). We also know from Doctor Fate that Heaven itself is not the end, and there are still deeper realms and things beyond conventional Heaven, and this is obvious since even Heaven like the entirety of the Universe is layered as Souls can descend throughs thousands of planes of existence. Each higher plane within each level of consciousness constitutes.

This is important because, in Willworld, the world is being dreamed of by someone, in the same, essence that someone else is dreaming of them. This also is important because when Spectre visited the Nexus to All realities, he saw all the parallel worlds and when he visited one, the dreamer had his own world as well as his own Heaven.

Profectus's weird argument about the CU is quite irrelevant because the CU does not deny the existence of infinite regression(higher plane) of dreams. His main argument stems from the “Multiverse having a parallel world” yet each of these “worlds” has literal worlds and literal Heavens of someone's choosing. Especially since the CU location and mannerisms to its importance are connceted to humanity, the Ocean of Dreams existed far prior as it was once an ocean of nothing until God forged duality and made Creation where it became the Sea of Love, an Ocean of Dreams, where worlds and humans came. It has nothing to do with the CU, so that's why I found Profectus's arguments plain wrong and straight-up just bizarre.
 
Last edited:
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
I'll explain it to you since I didn't really argue that hard for it with my discussion with Profectus. Which doesn't really ascertain anything about it being 1-A.

So, we already know the whole of Creation is just a dream from God. As DeMatteis said previously “The Dream is folded infinite amount of time:”

This is important because it's more relevant in the Silver Surfer scan but DeMatteis has a habit of recycling his work. However, what's more impimimportant is that the Oceans of Dreams convey the entire hierarchy given that the worlds come from it.

The important notion was from Spectre when one of its aspects mentioned the existence of “limitless planes of existence.” This is important because when Materna shows Helen that the material is the most basic level of existence, she traverses into another plane that's higher than the material as it is “deeper” within the Dream, but she never truly leaves the Gross plane of existence as she didn't reach the Stuble realms(Astral Plane) nor spiritual(Heaven). We also know from Doctor Fate that Heaven itself is not the end, and there are still deeper realms and things beyond conventional Heaven, and this is obvious since even Heaven like the entirety of the Universe is layered as Souls can descend throughs thousands of planes of existence. Each higher plane within each level of consciousness constitutes.

This is important because, in Willworld, the world is being dreamed of by someone, in the same, essence that someone else is dreaming of them. This also is important because when Spectre visited the Nexus to All realities, he saw all the parallel worlds and when he visited one, the dreamer had his own world as well as his own Heaven.

Profectus's weird argument about the CU is quite irrelevant because the CU does not deny the existence of infinite regression(higher plane) of dreams. His main argument stems from the “Multiverse having a parallel world” yet each of these “worlds” has literal worlds and literal Heavens of someone's choosing. Especially since the CU location and mannerisms to its importance are connceted to humanity, the Ocean of Dreams existed far prior as it was once an ocean of nothing until God forged duality and made Creation where it became the Sea of Love, an Ocean of Dreams, where worlds and humans came. It has nothing to do with the CU, so that's why I found Profectus's arguments plain wrong and straight-up just bizarre.
Click to expand...
Then I agree with this proposal as well
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
the Ocean of Dreams existed far prior as it was once an ocean of nothing until God forged duality and made Creation where it became the Sea of Love, an Ocean of Dreams, where worlds and humans came. It has nothing to do with the CU, so that's why I found Profectus's arguments plain wrong and straight-up just bizarre.
Click to expand...
What you’re calling the ocean of dreams is literally just the sum total of what unfolds from the Collective Unconscious.
 
Xearsay said:
The Ocean of dreams is literally just the sum total of the Collective Unconscious.
Click to expand...

It’s not. Given that, every Soul turns into pure energy as opposed to a realm that you can access like what happened during Soul War or the fight with Blight. The depiction of both isn't the same, the Ocean of Dreams is where Creation washed ashore, and the Collective Unconscious is just a realm filled with archetypes or ideas. The Ocean is the same eternal sea of eternity, a sea of love, etc…where the worlds emerged from. Even if it did, that would upscale the CU, and not downscale the Ocean.

Given what was said during Doctor Fate, it's not the CU.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
It’s not. Given that, every Soul turns into pure energy as opposed to a realm that you can access like what happened during Soul War or when they fought Blight. The depiction of both isn't the same, the Ocean of Dreams is where Creation washed ashore, and the Collective Unconscious is just a realm filled with archetypes or ideas. The Ocean is the same eternal sea of eternity, a sea of love, etc…where the worlds emerged from.
Click to expand...
What does your first sentence even mean? The ocean of dreams is just referring to that dream hierarchy thing that takes place in the Godsphere. The whole point of the CU is that it represents the peak extent of the souls journey, before surrendering to oblivion. That’s why when in Dematteis’s Spectre run, he encounters a character named Mistos and she tells him how she comes from a realm called the nameless land which she describes as being in the Collective Unconscious where all layers of dream and illusion are peeled back to reveal the true state of Gods dream. That’s what the CU is essentially, it’s the true state of Gods dream without illusions. So it definitely connects to the dream hierarchy or ocean of dreams thing you’re referring to. Denying this will just tell me that you don’t understand how Dematteis is conceptualizing the metaphysical side of DC.
 
Xearsay said:
What does your first sentence even mean? The ocean of dreams is just referring to that dream hierarchy thing that starts at the Godsphere. The whole point of the CU is that it represents the peak extent of the souls journey, before surrendering to oblivion.
Click to expand...
The CU is literally accessible by astral projecting or simply using magic. Said examples were in Soul Wars, Justice League Dark, and Justice League International. The Ocean isn't a hierarchy, it's the ocean from which Creation came that was originally the sea of nothing until God formed it to be where the Souls first awash ashore. This was explained in Doctor Fate on two separate occasions. It's not even within Creation, it is where man returns back to God and from God to man. Where each soul only looks to God’s love and is ready to return back to the Presence.
Xearsay said:
That’s why when in Dematteis’s Spectre run, he encounters a character named Mistos and she tells him how she comes from a realm called the nameless land which she describes as being in the Collective Unconscious where all layers of dream and illusion are peeled back to reveal the true state of Gods dream. That’s what the CU is essentially, it’s the true state of Gods dream without illusions. So it definitely connects to the dream hierarchy or ocean of dreams thing you’re referring to. Denying this will just tell me that you don’t understand how Dematteis is conceptualizing the metaphysical side of DC.
Click to expand...

Except we see during the entire event, it doesn't really reveal anything. As for the hierarchy, that's possible but it's still within Creation.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
The CU is literally accessible by astral projecting or simply using magic. Said examples were in Souk Wars, Justice League Dark, and Justice League International. The Ocean isn't a hierarchy, it's the ocean from which Creation came that was originally the sea of nothing until God formed it to be where the Souls first awash ashore. This was explained in Doctor Fate on two separate occasions. It's not even within Creation, it is where man returns back to God and from God to man. Where each soul only looks to God’s love and is ready to return back to the Presence.
Click to expand...
The dream hierarchy and the heavens are also accessed through that so what's your point? The whole reason the dream hierarchy is called the "ocean of dreams" is to emphasize the expanse of how many dreams exist in the hierarchy.
 
Last edited:
Xearsay said:
The dream hierarchy and the heavens are also accessed through that so what's your point? The whole reason the structure you're referring to is called the "ocean of dreams" is to emphasize the expanse of how many dreams exist in the hierarchy.
Click to expand...

I'll first explain your logic of Mistos’s claim on the “Collective Unconscious” not being the Collective Unconscious. Then I'll explain the Ocean since you claim I don't get the metaphysical storytelling of DeMatteis.

Firstly, she told Spectre she came from a different state of consciousness that's distinct from Spectre because the world where she originated was the Golden Age of humans. She never said “Collective Unconscious.” She just explained how the world was once super harmonious where dreamers and magicand knew of their roles and knew the design that the Creator, herself, set by dreaming all of them. The Golden Age of Shamballa is a reference to Hinduism in the first of the Yuga Age where humans were in a Golden Age of perfection. Through the different stages ignorance, illusion, and decoction kept pushing the truth further and the people away from God hence why they would reincarnate as many times from lifetime to lifetime to eventually return to God after peeling away all the skins/layers/illusion that's separate them from God. She/She did not say Collective Unconscious.

Secondly, the Ocean isn't tied to Heaven. We know this from what it is. Recall Andrew Bennett using the flute of Krishna to become Mahapralaya. He destroyed Creation, but they came across a similar face that they knew, but couldn't fathom called the Smile or just “God.” When he made Creation, the Ocean of Nothing, or the Sea of Brahma became an Ocean of light which you can refer to as the Ocean of Love, the Sea of Eternity, or the Ocean of Dreams.

Here

We see it again, as an Ocean of Deams/Souls from which Souls come from God, and back to God. The Sea of Creation.

Then we see it again later. It's beyond Heaven, where Souls go through millions of worlds, thousands of planes of existence. Where they near God love to return to that same Sea from which they washed ashore.

Then we see that the same Ocean is God’s own soul. His own unconscious which was the Sea of Brahma became an Ocean of Light and where Creation was born. Each droplet, a soul, and each Soul, the entire Ocean which just means each Soul is God living in his own dream unaware of their existence as the Dreamer due to ignorance and illusion. This concept that DeMatteis took from Meher Baba, who took inspiration from Adi Shankara where Soul and God are only separated by illusion.

Then we see it again in Spectre. This time it was called the Sea of Eternity or the Void beyond the conscious limitation of humans meaning the Ocean is most definitely above and beyond Creation because it's the reason why and where Creation came from.

Anyways, you're clogging the thread. I'll leave at this and hopefully, we can move on. This thread only requires one more admin vote.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
Firstly, she told Spectre she came from a different state of consciousness that's distinct from Spectre because the world where she originated was the Golden Age of humans. She never said “Collective Unconscious.”
Click to expand...
She directly referred to it as in the Collective Unconscious.

VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
Secondly, the Ocean isn't tied to Heaven. We know this from what it is. Recall Andrew Bennett using the flute of Krishna to become Mahapralaya. He destroyed Creation, but they came across a similar face that they knew, but couldn't fathom called the Smile or just “God.” When he made Creation, the Ocean of Nothing, or the Sea of Brahma became an Ocean of light which you can refer to as the Ocean of Love, the Sea of Eternity, or the Ocean of Dreams.
Click to expand...
This literally doesn’t alter what I’m saying. Existence goes from being an ocean of dreams becomes to an ocean of nothing when mahapralaya comes and dissolves Gods dream back to nothing, hence why it’s an “ocean of nothing.” Also layers of dream are within Heaven or the Godsphere, but the Collective Unconscious is like the conceptual background that underlies all of it.

VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
Anyways, you're clogging the thread. I'll leave at this and hopefully, we can move on. This thread only requires one more admin vote.
Click to expand...
And you’re clogging the content revisions forum with your borderline nonsensical interpretations of these stories. The whole point of the phrasing “ocean of dreams” is to literally reference the vast expanse of how many dreams are in existence. And this is why in Willworld it’s also called an ocean of “infinite dreams” which further emphasizes how many dreams exist. They also refer to this ocean you’re talking about as an infinite sea where any thought instantly materializes, which further ties in to the Collective Unconscious which has been stated verbatim in JLA Soul War to be a vast sea of dreams, archetypes, symbols, and ideas made manifest.
 
Have you ever learned just to listen? I swear you just like picking arguments with anyone over the smallest issues. Since you don't want to listen, I advise you to either just say you agree or disagree with the rating proposal or just don't say anything at all.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

VeryGoofyToddler2
  • Locked
Vertigo(Neil Gaiman and Mike Carey) Revision
2 3
Replies
82
Views
10K
Deagonx
Deagonx
Swanyee9t76
Alpha/Omega *Infinite* ( DC/Vertigo comics ) tier 0 CRT
Replies
10
Views
2K
Swanyee9t76
Swanyee9t76
Elizio33
  • Locked
DC/Crisis Cosmology Revision
8 9 10
Replies
363
Views
31K
Antvasima
Antvasima
IdiosyncraticLawyer
  • Locked
DC Comics: The Light of Creation/The Great Darkness/The Presence (Vertigo) - Clean-up
2 3 4
Replies
136
Views
9K
Antvasima
Antvasima
PrinceStories
  • Locked
Problem Acausality type 4 Lucifer's
Replies
31
Views
3K
IdiosyncraticLawyer
IdiosyncraticLawyer
Back
Top