• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

DC Comics Profile Revamps: Trigon, Spectre, Phantom Stranger

Status
Not open for further replies.
PrinceOfTheMorning

PrinceOfTheMorning

VS Battles
Retired
839
471
Warning: This is Very Long

Many DC profiles are in need of significant updates. I don't mean to say they're bad or anything like that, but there are certain issues that should be resolved.

  • For starters, many profiles have a complete lack of justification/scans for abilities. Case in point: Trigon's profile has zero proof of Mid-Godly Regenerationn. That's far from the only example.
  • Many profiles are also incorrectly mixing Pre- and Post-Flashpoint abilities and scaling despite the Pre- and Post-Flashpoint versions being completely different characters. Trigon, for example, has a completely different origin, life story, power level, and ability set when you compare Pre- and Post-Flashpoint versions. His profile should not be mixed between the two.
This is the start of my attempt to modernize a lot of DC profiles that need work.

I combined these three characters into one CRT because a lot of their scaling intertwines.

Where I got my scans
There is a certain site that I'm not sure is allowed to be named. This site provides access to pretty much any comic you could want, almost always in super high quality.

  • I have gone through literally every appearance of Trigon in the history of DC Comics, taken scans for every feat and ability, and created drafts for two new profiles. No respect threads. This is 100% comprehensive.
  • For Spectre, I read through every Crispus Allen issue. For Jim Corrigan, I used a combination of reading the Ostrander run and using respect threads that I can link if desired. For Asmodel and Hal, I read Day of Judgment, some of his main run, and used a respect thread. For Primal/Unbound Spectre I read the Morrison JLA issues, Day of Vengeance, and the Ostrander material. And for Full Power Logoz Spectre I didn't change anything in the first place.
  • For Post-Flashpoint Phantom Stranger, I read literally every appearance. For Post-Crisis Phantom Stranger, I used a combination of a respect thread and reading random issues since he has so many appearances.
Step 1: Trigon (Post-Flashpoint)
Post-FP Trigon is completely different from his prior incarnation in terms of origin, life story, powers, and tier. This isn't a case like Darkseid either, where he's a Sphere of the Gods-type being. Pre-Flashpoint Trigon was explicitly not from Hell. As such I propose altering his current profile to be a Post-Flashpoint one. A new profile will be made for his prior incarnation and is below.

Proposed Profile Update: Here

  • Post-Flashpoint Trigon's scaling remains the same as it is now. In case his and his sons' "fight" against the Teen Titans is brought up as an antifeat (spoilers: they lose with almost comical ease, even Trigon), I would remind any naysayers that the entire encounter was a farce purposefully manufactured by Trigon so Raven would become a trusted Titan, as the end of the arc revealed. Relevant scans for that are in the proposed profile above, as there is direct evidence much of it was an illusion and therefore falls under Illusion Creation.
  • Post-FP Trigon has never demonstrated a number of abilities his prior incarnation had, most notably Mid-Godly Regenerationn. As listing all his abilities and scans would be far too long here, all of them are linked in his proposed profile above.
Step 2: The Spectre
Since this recent thread didn't go anywhere I thought I'd expand on it and bring it up again.

Proposed Profile Update: Here

  • Spectre's profile should be divided into separate keys for each host. Not all hosts have the same level of feats, not by a longshot (cough Crispus Allen cough) and not only that, each version has very different characterization. It was bugging me a lot even before the thread I linked above.
  • Spectre battling Anti-Monitor doesn't deserve its own key, since it was just Jim Corrigan Spectre with more magical energy than normal. I did combine it into Jim Corrigan's key though, as Ant suggested.
  • Primal/Unbound Spectre is not the same as Full Power Spectre. I separated those keys. Nor did he cause Michael to "overexert" himself. Both fights showed Spectre getting his world rocked without making a single dent in Michael, so using that as scaling evidence is a no in my book.
  • Conflating Pre- and Post-Flashpoint Jim Corrigan is a mistake, as Post-Flashpoint Jim scales much higher than Pre-Flashpoint Jim does (not counting the Anti-Monitor fight of course).
  • I did not use the "earthquakes in Hell" feat because, if you read it closely, it's not a feat at all.
  • I added proof for each ability, and added many missing abilities, all with scans. There are far too many to reasonably list here, so again please see the above link for the full list.
The scans I used for the new proposed tiers for each host are also linked. I mainly went with the feats from the thread I linked above.

  • Pre-Flashpoint Jim Corrigan will be 2-C. The best scaling I could find for him was how he rather evenly battled Zero Hour Hal Jordan (who also needs a revamp, but that's for another day). ZH Hal scales significantly above baseline 2-C for stomping the hell out of Time Trapper, twice. The Sorcerer-amped Spectre from the Anti-Monitor fight is listed in this key.
  • Asmodel is a big 2-A as far as I can tell. Hell is 2-A and he effortlessly froze it by removing all hellfire from it.
  • Hal Jordan (non-Logoz) will be 2-C. He outright stated that his new power was far beyond anything he experienced as Parallax, so he scales above the Time Trapper. He also has his 2-C feat from JLA/Avengers, which is 100% canon as far as DC is concerned (the bottom of the profile has a link to a blog explaining it).
  • Crispus Allen, the runt of the litter, will be a small Low 2-C. He scales to the Butcher and his two multiversal feats each come from the Anti-Life Equation and the Spear of Destiny, respectively.
  • Post-Flashpoint Jim Corrigan scales to 2-B for being equal/somewhat stronger than the Phantom Stranger, who was one of the people accomplishing the 2-B feat that gives Post-FP Trigon his rating.
  • Primal/Unbound Spectre is what I'm most iffy about. His best feats/statements come from his Unbound state, but there are also scans that say he should be lesser without a host. I'm also pretty open to changing this tier if people don't think he should scale to Imps. I decided to add his Imp-scaling evidence to the proposed profile for now.
  • Full Power Spectre is something we never saw until Hal achieved connection with the Logoz, and after he lost it we never saw it again. There is also a direct statement that if Spectre had been able to access his full potential he could have halted the Great Evil Beast, which supports his current 1-A rating.
Step 3: Trigon (Post-Crisis)
Proposed New Profile: Here

  • I added scans for all abilities, especially the Mid-Godly regen which seems rather important.
  • Post-Crisis Trigon scales to Jim Corrigan Spectre, or 2-C, as per the Monitor's direct statement. That's basically in-universe WoG, and in all his appearances nothing contradicts it. He has no antifeats unless you want to count his inability to traverse dimensions without absorbing souls, which is more lack of ability than lack of AP.
Step 4: The Phantom Stranger (Post-Flashpoint)
Pre- and Post-Flashpoint versions are literally completely different characters with different origins, histories, abilities, and scaling. Furthermore, the current Post-Crisis key is extremely lacking. As such, I propose updating the current profile to be Post-Flashpoint, and adding a new Post-Crisis profile.

Proposed Profile Update: Here

  • As before, I added evidence for his abilities and added missing ones.
  • Post-FP Phantom Stranger, unlike his prior incarnation, is more willing to directly involve himself in combat and his portrayed as far more powerful. He, like the Spectre, is a direct servant of the Presence and his showings back it up. The same feat that gives Trigon his tier also directly applies to Stranger, as he performed it alongside Trigon's sons.
  • He does, however, have ONE major antifeat: Superman flew through his body, somehow shattering both the physical and metaphysical aspects of it. Stranger instantly reformed, but mentioned how Superman was the symbol of everyone's hope which was what empowered him, so honestly I think it was some weird psychic thing.
Step 5: The Phantom Stranger (Post-Crisis)
Proposed New Profile: Here

  • Missing abilities added, evidence added for currently lacking ones, same old same old.
  • Post-Crisis Stranger's Conceptual Manipulation doesn't meet the requirements stated on the page, as he was not manipulating universal or abstract concepts. Rather, his metaphysical attacks would fall under Durability Negation.
  • As for scaling, this is somewhat difficult, as PS has very few instances where he demonstrates his true capabilities and even fewer where we can see a true limit, due to his schtick about only intervening so far. As such I'm proposing we use his fight with Bart when the latter was super-duper amped on magic. I wouldn't go nearly so far as to suggest we scale Stranger to Mxyz, but his feats here should at least tell us that he scales to the top-dog magicians in the DCU. Being a member of the Quintessence beyond time and space is supporting evidence.
 
This looks particularly well-sourced, and the proposals appear fairly reasonable at a distance. The idea of splitting Pre/Post-Flashpoint Trigon is also something I never realized was necessary until now (since I only ever followed the character's storylines in the loosest sense of the word even when I was still into reading DC), but now that I'm looking at it, it's definitely something we should have done a long time ago.
 
i agree with this also congrats for your work it's not often i see someone read all a characters comics for a thread.
 
Agree just remove the stands above the physical law scan in the PS immortality that is just resistance to physics manipulation
 
Has anybody asked some of the members that I recommended?
 
I have, although Crimson Azoth's profile says he'll be missing for another day or two, Azathoth's says he's currently extremely busy, and Sandman31 has been inactive for over two months. Ryukama replied saying he's too busy as well.
 
Okay. You can try asking the active members among the people I mentioned then.
 
Wish I could help out, but I'm honestly not super familiar with these characters or their story arcs. So I feel like giving any solid judgement would be improper on my part. Sorry I can't help out.
 
Yes, we might have to demote Sandman if he does not show up soon.
 
I just have an issue with the feat used for Post Flashpoint 2-B scaling. So that room of the casino building is under a veil and the hotel itself overlaps with the physical world and Trigon's realm, hiding the supernatural from humans. They weren't literally tanking the universes colliding physically, it a was more a skill feat of navigating the nexus to the table without getting lost and falling like Stranger says. They say around and through them due to the nature of the room. There was a dead man sitting next to them from their previous game whose body isn't destroyed by 2-B force. Additionally Trigons son's are never displayed anywhere near the 2-B level in battle. If you wanna disregard the instances in TT, they were worried about Project Thaumaton which they considered a threat to their power. It's basically a magic weapon capable of devastating the earth. Base Pandora was able to casually decapitate Suge and Ruskoff. The brothers were defeated along with everyone else by Felix Faust and were damaged by his attacks. The brothers also had their hands full fighting the JLD members.
 
While I don't particularly care what tier the three Post-FP versions end up being, I'll address some of your points:

  • "worried about Project Thaumaton which they considered a threat to their power. It's basically a magic weapon capable of devastating the earth" - The point of the project was to be used as a potential weapon against the Anti-Monitor, which I wouldn't consider odd. Anti-Monitor doesn't have a key right now but that's something that'll have to be addressed eventually.
  • "Base Pandora was able to casually decapitate Suge and Ruskoff" - This addresses something that should be on her profile, if we had one. Her weapons make use of divine enchantments and I would say they ignore normal durability, as they can cut through beings like the Spectre just as easily as normal people.
  • "The brothers were defeated along with everyone else by Felix Faust and were damaged by his attacks" - That was Felix channeling the power of Thaumaton, see above.
  • "The brothers also had their hands full fighting the JLD members." - This is kind of misrepresenting the fight. In JLD #29, the fight was almost immediately interrupted by Nanda Parbat spirits. What we did see was Belial taking zero damage from Zatanna and Swamp Thing and smacking Zatanna down. He took superficial damage from Nightmare Nurse's enchanted knives and the next panel didn't show any injury on him. The other two brothers didn't actually do anything or fight anyone.
So yeah, however this: "Additionally Trigons son's are never displayed anywhere near the 2-B level in battle." is a point that I agree on. The whole Trigon family is lacking in both appearances and feats, which is why I figured the scaling in place already is the best we can do. If the majority wants to downgrade them due to the dubious nature of the feat then I'm A-OK with that too.
 
Yea we don't really have a n52 antimonitor key or Pandora profile. So would be hard for people to gauge. You could argue magic hax from weapons decapitated them but there was nothing explicitly pointing to it (glow, magic circle ...etc) in this instance, but it is plausible.

Minor point, Felix wasn't channeling the Thaumaton he used a special spell to gain the knowledge of every magician in the area. He intended to use that boost to defeat everyone and turn the Thaumaton back on.

I was more pointing to the fact they took damage and yea it was a short struggle. I would say the gap would be more obvious if they were tier 2.

That's my only gripe I'll let others decide what they wanna do.
 
Just rechecked Pandora #9 and you're right about the source of Faust's power boost. I will say though, it was a pretty clear unquantifiable power boost, and he wasn't shown to actually injure any of Trigon's sons. He was able to use his new magic to restrain them for a bit, but after Faust got KO'd the next time we see the sons they're still just fine, and were waiting to betray the JLD.

"I was more pointing to the fact they took damage and yea it was a short struggle." - My point was that only Nightmare Nurse was even able to use her magic to cause Belial pain, but the panels show he wasn't actually injured by it. You have a point about how the difference should be more obvious, but to be honest you can say that about 99.99% of comic book characters.

"That's my only gripe I'll let others decide what they wanna do." - Agreed. Like I said above, if people consider the feat sketchy then I'm fine with lowering them.
 
I don't particularly have an opinion about this issue, but trust your senses of judgement.
 
I just looked into all the links for Trigon and The Spectre. I strongly agree with all the P&A, and moderately agree on most of the stats. Spectre needs types 2 and 8 Immortality, and I disagree too with Trigon being 2-A.

I will try to evaluate the other profiles later, nice job on everything, its beautiful how much stuff where is here.
 
Yes, thanks for your help Eficiente, and everyone else too. I think I forgot to thank Zensum earlier. Do we have anyone else who thinks we should disregard the 2-B scaling currently in place? Personally I'm fine with that.

If we go that route, then they do have solid scaling to the current 4-Bs. Disregarding the really weird "metaphysical" shattering thing, Phantom Stranger took a punch from mindfucked Superma and, other than a very brief bloody nose, was just fine. And Trigon's son Belial took zero damage from getting thrown by angry Swamp Thing and getting blasted point-blank by Zatanna.


Speaking of which, Zatanna was forgotten in the 4-B upgrade, so her profile needs a brief alteration.
 
Have you asked Matthew, Sera, and Kepekley?
 
I agree with a lot of the OP.

Just a few things, I think can be changed. I think the Likely rating can be change to solid rating for The Spectre and The Phantom Stranger (Post-Crisis).

In the The Spectre's case.

I belived affecting a 5-D Imps followed, the other justifcations above is enough to warrant a solid rating Low 2-C.

In the The Phantom Stranger (Post-Crisis)'s:

  • Likely Universe level+ (Though he was ultimately defeated, he was able to match blasts with Bart Alle when the latter had access to a level of magic exceeding the most powerful sorcerers in the universe, which includes the likes of Doctor Fate and Mordru)
Mordru is already Low 2-C already so I believe this fact is enough for solid Low 2-C.
 
I initially added the "likely" since I anticipated some controversy, but if you think they can be removed then I'll do that when they're ready to be implemented. Thanks for the help.
 
The "breaking out of a prison" part should preferably be removed, as the "Crisis Times Five" story treated the imps as vastly superior to the Spectre, and just because one of them created the planetary prison, it does not mean that breaking free required comparable power.

The rest can probably stay.
 
@Joe

Thanks

@Ant

Will do. Do you agree with Elizhaa that the "Likely" should be removed in favor of a solid rating?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

JayAaerow
Doctor Fate revisions
Replies
21
Views
2K
Antvasima
Antvasima
  • Locked
DC Comics: Darkseid Pre-Flashpoint
Replies
32
Views
2K
Catzlaflame
Transcending
  • Locked
Trigon downgrade, and Nabu and The Batman Who Laughs upgrade
6 7 8
Replies
297
Views
11K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Elizio33
  • Locked
Changing True Form Darkseid's Nigh-Omnipresence
Replies
37
Views
2K
Elizio33
Elizio33
IdiosyncraticLawyer
DC Comics: Reviewing Exotic Haxes
3 4 5
Replies
178
Views
9K
VeryGoofyToddler
VeryGoofyToddler
Back
Top