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DBH Revision?

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Vietthai96 said:
Well i just take a detour at DB wiki for relaxing and suddenly stumble upon the Multiverse page and it said this:
"Universe 7 is shown to have many parallel timelines within it, some of which are accessed through the Parallel Quests, where the player character intervenes to make sure everything proceeds as it should. In a DLC pack for that game, the events of GT were implied to be created because of Demigra's temporal distortion."
Click to expand...
Those are just alternate timelines not timelines within timelines. And GT was never implied to be created because of Demigra, it was just his wormholes connecting dimensions. The wiki wildin rn lol
 
Vietthai96 said:
Well i just take a detour at DB wiki for relaxing and suddenly stumble upon the Multiverse page and it said this:
"Universe 7 is shown to have many parallel timelines within it, some of which are accessed through the Parallel Quests, where the player character intervenes to make sure everything proceeds as it should. In a DLC pack for that game, the events of GT were implied to be created because of Demigra's temporal distortion."
Click to expand...
GT timeline isn't inside the Universe 7

it's a whole another thing
 
Honestly, I would just wait for Zamasu to make their blog before continuing.

Though to be honest, considering how this thread has derailed so much, I wouldn't be opposed to remaking this a staff only thread with Zamasu obviously being allowed to participate.

Just my thoughts, I'll see what DDM and Ultima think.
 
Ultima asked me to comment here.

While talking about the Dragon Ball cosmology on a Discord server, I decided to try and pin down exactly what are the arguments for Dragon Ball's universes being spatio-temporally separated in the first place. From what I can remember reading, these two are the main points in favor of this interpretation:
  1. Universe 7 contains the Room of Spirit and Time within its globe. The Room of Spirit and Time has a vastly different flow of time from the rest of the universe, with one year inside being equivalent to one day outside. Because it has a separate flow of time and is spatially disconnected from Universe 7, it has to be a separate spacetime continuum, and since Universe 7 encompasses this as a subspace of itself, it follows that Universe 7 and every other Universe are causally isolated.
  2. Travel between universes is regarded as impossible without specific divine techniques or inventions, such as the angels' Warp ability and the Transport Cube. The former in particular is visually represented as a spatial distortion.
Before I continue, can someone verify that these are indeed points being used to defend universes being separate spacetime continua, and preferably add any arguments that I have missed?
 
KingPin0422 said:
Ultima asked me to comment here.

While talking about the Dragon Ball cosmology on a Discord server, I decided to try and pin down exactly what are the arguments for Dragon Ball's universes being spatio-temporally separated in the first place. From what I can remember reading, these two are the main points in favor of this interpretation:
  1. Universe 7 contains the Room of Spirit and Time within its globe. The Room of Spirit and Time has a vastly different flow of time from the rest of the universe, with one year inside being equivalent to one day outside. Because it has a separate flow of time and is spatially disconnected from Universe 7, it has to be a separate spacetime continuum, and since Universe 7 encompasses this as a subspace of itself, it follows that Universe 7 and every other Universe are causally isolated.
  2. Travel between universes is regarded as impossible without specific divine techniques or inventions, such as the angels' Warp ability and the Transport Cube. The former in particular is visually represented as a spatial distortion.
Before I continue, can someone verify that these are indeed points being used to defend universes being separate spacetime continua, and preferably add any arguments that I have missed?
Click to expand...
Someone commented saying that Toriyama said that they're spatio-temporally separated, but nobody has given a source for that yet I don't think.
 
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KingPin0422 said:
Ultima asked me to comment here.

While talking about the Dragon Ball cosmology on a Discord server, I decided to try and pin down exactly what are the arguments for Dragon Ball's universes being spatio-temporally separated in the first place. From what I can remember reading, these two are the main points in favor of this interpretation:
  1. Universe 7 contains the Room of Spirit and Time within its globe. The Room of Spirit and Time has a vastly different flow of time from the rest of the universe, with one year inside being equivalent to one day outside. Because it has a separate flow of time and is spatially disconnected from Universe 7, it has to be a separate spacetime continuum, and since Universe 7 encompasses this as a subspace of itself, it follows that Universe 7 and every other Universe are causally isolated.
  2. Travel between universes is regarded as impossible without specific divine techniques or inventions, such as the angels' Warp ability and the Transport Cube. The former in particular is visually represented as a spatial distortion.
Before I continue, can someone verify that these are indeed points being used to defend universes being separate spacetime continua, and preferably add any arguments that I have missed?
Click to expand...
Someone is making a cosmology blog (which i suggested) for the DBH since iirc this thread was originally for DBH

They are going to be posting scans and stuff and give detailed explanation of things when the time comes.
 
@King

That sums it up for the most part. For the second part, I'd elaborate on that IT is an ability that can go to places that're spatially disconnected, but when it comes to a dimension that has a separate Space-Time, he's unable to use it (Hyperbolic time chamber). Which is the only time when we directly see this technique not being able to be used - And Goku is unable to IT between the Universes, and needs Whis to do it.

The only things capable of going between Universes in the Timeline is the angels, the Cube, and Kai Kai.
 
Yeah, the other universes are even more spatio-temporally disconnected than the RoSaT is from Universe 7. And it's implied each universe likely has their own versions of RoSaT to further empathize this. But calling Dragon Ball timelines quilted multiverses are factually incorrect. I would have seen Bubble multiverse theory having some barring, but a multitude of other factors I do not have on hand sources but heard multiple times and even occasionally seen scans. But RoSaT's existence, combined with Toriyama having multiple "Space-Time barrier" statements that surround Universe 7 alone, and other universes being even more isolated than RoSaT is from U7 indicates the universes are actual universes and the timelines containing the 12 universes are more like Meta-Universes or Brane Cosmologies.
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
The wiki treats U7 as low 2-C so they don’t consider overarching timelines as a contradiction
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Yeah, hence why I'm bringing it up here.

Giygas3 said:
Refer to CR post. Though, I'll elaborate a little more on it. Given the anime elaboration of this is rather lacking, we can try using the manga to potentially give us some more details on this whole idea of time-traveling that Toriyama has going on. In it, it's explained that going to an arbitrary point into the past creates an alternate world, this being not of the actual, 'past or future' of the Timeline they currently reside it, that does not affect the actual, 'past, present, and future' of the timeline itself. Whis has an ability for that whenever he's rewinding time, and no Time rings comes from that. Hints, why Bulma refers to this as an Alternate world for Future trunk's timeline, and not, "the future", or in vice-versa, where the main timeline is not the actual past of Trunk's timeline, but an alternate world that moves congruently when time passes.

Whis applies this same thing for future trunks timeline, going into an arbitrary point into the future that happens before their fight with Zamasu to sell him away. This directly causes a new time ring to come about, and why Beerus refers to it as, "You're going to create another parallel world!"

This same thing happens in the anime, where Beerus is complaining about making a new time-ring from Whis doing this (Causing a new parallel world to come about that's talking about before Trunk's own world events came about.), and Whis rebukes him about how Beerus also made a new time ring.

Simply put, if this was just Whis reversing the events of Trunk's already existing timeline- No new time ring would appear, but this is not the case confirmed by Beerus and Whis interaction in the anime (and supported by the manga), so therefore, Whis created a new parallel world that's not the same as Future trunk's timeline. Hints, why they're 6 time rings after the fact.
Click to expand...
Yeah, fair enough, then. I concede that Zeno did destroy Trunks' whole timeline, in this case.

Giygas3 said:
This one: Dragon Ball Super Cosmology Discussion | Page 2 | VS Battles Wiki Forum
Click to expand...

So, after skimming through this thread:

Goku is completely incapable of going to any Universe without the need of Whis, despite being able to instant transmission to any spatially disconnected place (So long as the Ki signature is strong enough. He can already sense beings Universe distance across at Ssj2 Gohan level. They're plenty of people in the other Universes that he can instant transmission to, yet he doesn't.)
Click to expand...
This is honestly the most solid argument I've seen so far, so, I'll leave it alone for now and focus on the others.

The reason for this is that Universe 7 by itself has already been shown to contain parallel space-time continuums within its globe, such as the Room of Spirit and Time, which is still affected by time travel; which proves that the new timelines can encompass other space-times as well, and thus the events in the Future Trunks Saga don't prove anything in the way of the universes being physically connected.
Click to expand...

We already know the Hyperbolic Time Chamber is a disjointed Space-Time from the the Space-Time of U7 within Kami's lookout. Similarly, there's an all encompassing Timeline in Dragon ball, that has disjointed Space-Times (In this case, the lookout)
Click to expand...
I don't see why the Room of Spirit and Time suddenly proves that the universes are each their own separate spacetime. The idea of timelines embedded within larger timelines is not abnormal at all, and we acknowledge it as a possibility in any verse, so the effect being demonstrated by an actual location doesn't really help your argument at all. You'd need evidence that refer specifically to the 12 Universes to conclude that they're separate spacetimes, especially now that people finally realized their interpretation of the cosmology is potentially Low 1-C and not 2-C, so it'd obviously be analyzed under much stricter standards.

Not to mention that, as far as I am aware, the RoSaT is just a planet-sized pocket dimension with a compressed flow of time compared to the normal world, which doesn't require alternate spacetimes to begin with, seeing as how this phenomenon happens in real life, too, though to much lower degrees, obviously. So, this point doesn't seem to hold up, regardless of how you look at it.

As for this whole Infinite Zamasu thing, he embodies the Space-Time of Universe 7 (By him being capable of affect other Timelines by his being and not using any external source to Time travel). I'll argue that Zeno destroyed just Zamasu (And the whole U7), and not the whole Timeline - We know this because his actual guards were never erased, and the time ring was still there
Click to expand...
This seems to be arguing that Zeno only destroyed the U7 of Trunks' world, rather than the whole timeline, which you all seem to have changed your minds on, and which I already agreed to, so, it seems like it doesn't really matter anymore.

My_area said:
I believe reason why timeline is Low 2-C is not because of uncountable snapshots(there is no way to know how many snapshots are there in a timeline)
Click to expand...
"snapshots" is just the term I use for the lower-dimensional cross-sections of spacetime, of which there are uncountably infinitely-many by necessity, since space and time being continuous and defined over the field of the real numbers is the standard assumption, both here and in physics as a whole. So, yeah, the "snapshots" are a direct result of the extra axes.

My_area said:
Now..I dont see why a bigger spatio-temporal dimension encompassing space and time continums result in a presence of extra temporal dimension rather than just bigger 4D space and time continum in case of time ring
Click to expand...
My_area said:
Also isn't hypervolume used to measure volume of 4th spatial shapes like tesserect but not 4D space and time continum?
Click to expand...
Hypervolume is just a measure of the amount of higher-dimensional space encompassed by any given object, and it applies to any construct, be it a tesseract or a timeline. A spacetime continuum that extends infinitely across all axes is a bit different in that it doesn't exist as an object to be measured within a n-dimensional space: It is the field of measurement itself, and thus its hypervolume is ∞, and it cannot be meaningfully embedded within a space of the same dimension. If anything, it'd only be a subset of that space insofar as every set is a subset of itself, but both of them would still have the same size, and neither would be larger than the other.

That's why, for an infinitely-extended timeline to be contained in an overarching flow of time, the latter would have to be a higher temporal dimension. But if the timeline is finite, it the latter could indeed just be a space with a bigger hypervolume.
 
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DarkDragonMedeus said:
But calling Dragon Ball timelines quilted multiverses are factually incorrect.
Click to expand...
Please, stop bringing up Quilted Multiverses here. This is a really old argument that only served to illustrate that multiple universes could indeed be in a shared spacetime. Nobody ever argued that Dragon Ball's multiverse was literally exactly like a patchwork universe.
 
@Ultima_Reality "I don't see why the Room of Spirit and Time suddenly proves that the universes are each their own separate spacetime. "

It doesn't. The reason it was brought up was because people were trying to disprove the idea that the Universes had a separate Space-Time because the alternate world seems to have the same duplicate Universes, hinting that the Universe must have the same Space-Time for this to happen. However, if the Hyperbolic Time Chamber is a separate Space-Time itself, and it itself is also duplicated when you make a new alternate world - The argument above fails to hold nearly as much weight.

"Not to mention that, as far as I am aware, the RoSaT is just a planet-sized pocket dimension with a compressed flow of time compared to the normal world, which doesn't require alternate spacetimes to begin with, seeing as how this phenomenon happens in real life, too, though to much lower degrees, obviously. So, this point doesn't seem to hold up, regardless of how you look at it."

It's a planet-sized pocket dimension, yes. It's argued to have a separate Space-Time because Goku should by all means, still be able to sense their energy. If the reference frame for Trunk and Goten is 365x faster relative to the reference point for Goku, this shouldn't stop Goku from being able to sense them. We already know he can sense beings from spatially disconnected places, and just the rate of time shouldn't change it. You're also trying to invoke SR, which... the HTC is just a separate dimension that's not traveling, and is not bending Space-Time to any margin for it to cause this affect.

Occam's Razor would decide what's happening is that it's just a different Space-Time; Hints, why Goku is unable to sense them.

"This seems to be arguing that Zeno only destroyed the U7 of Trunks' world, rather than the whole timeline, which you all seem to have changed your minds on, and which I already agreed to, so, it seems like it doesn't really matter anymore."

I changed my mind because I didn't know the Time-ring was destroyed until Zamasu pointed it out. If he did or didn't completely erase the timeline wouldn't particularly matter to the argument itself, as he was still going to make another alternate world that wasn't Trunk's timeline.

Edit for the last part: Wait, you're talking about for this thread. Hmm, I suppose it would matter on this whole Low 1-C thing going on instead (Which to be quite frank, I still don't understand well at all.), then I suppose the argument for this is less of Whis, but more of if Zeno did in fact destroy the Time-Ring or not. I'll let others argue about that, because I'm still somewhat iffy on this part.
 
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Giygas3 said:
@King

That sums it up for the most part. For the second part, I'd elaborate on that IT is an ability that can go to places that're spatially disconnected, but when it comes to a dimension that has a separate Space-Time, he's unable to use it (Hyperbolic time chamber). Which is the only time when we directly see this technique not being able to be used - And Goku is unable to IT between the Universes, and needs Whis to do it.

The only things capable of going between Universes in the Timeline is the angels, the Cube, and Kai Kai.
Click to expand...
Im gonna be honest, part of me feels iffy on using IT as an argument for spatio-temporal separation when it could also be possible that IT is just used inconsistently in the series. Remember, IT is also unable to go distances where the target that Goku tries to sense out their KI from is too far from his position. Such as the Namekians planet that he needed to go to King Kai's for in order to get help locating them. And IIRC, Goku couldn't use IT to go to New Namek even when in the Supreme Kai's world, and had to have Kibito-Shin be the one to take Dende to their world.

It seems fishy that the move works on going to different spatial-separated dimensions, but it doesn't work in the same reality that Goku himself is present in across certain distances.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Im gonna be honest, part of me feels iffy on using IT as an argument for spatio-temporal separation when it could also be possible that IT is just used inconsistently in the series. Remember, IT is also unable to go distances where the target that Goku tries to sense out their KI from is too far from his position. Such as the Namekians planet that he needed to go to King Kai's for in order to get help locating them. And IIRC, Goku couldn't use IT to go to New Namek even when in the Supreme Kai's world, and had to have Kibito-Shin be the one to take Dende to their world.

It seems fishy that the move works on going to different spatial-separated dimensions, but it doesn't work in the same reality that Goku himself is present in across certain distances.
Click to expand...
Distance or range wasn't the problem for IT...
Problem was proper pinpointing of planet's location....for which King Kai was needed.
And King Kai was in afterlife where Goku went. Since he can also telepathically connect to King Kai....pin pointing him isn't a problem

But same is not for Namekians.


Kin Kai is essentially a telepathic GPS or radar.
 
Ottavio_Merluzzo said:
I'm pretty sure Kukui is talking about Goku being unable to go to New Namek with IT.
Click to expand...
^This is what I meant incase it was unclear. Like I said, it's strange that IT is able to have its sensory capabilities detect KI from different spatially-separated areas, yet it cannot detect the KI of everything within the same reality Goku is already within. If that wasn't the case, he would've been able to detect the KI's of the Namekians (especially since Goku mentioned that they'd have similar energy signatures to Piccolos to give him even more of an idea of where they are).

That said, I dunno if its Toei only. I could try rechecking the manga real quick to see.
 
The thing is, he could IT to King Kai planet, but unable to IT in and out RoSaT despite the room being closer than King Kai planet
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
^This is what I meant incase it was unclear. Like I said, it's strange that IT is able to have its sensory capabilities detect KI from different spatially-separated areas, yet it cannot detect the KI of everything within the same reality Goku is already within. If that wasn't the case, he would've been able to detect the KI's of the Namekians (especially since Goku mentioned that they'd have similar energy signatures to Piccolos to give him even more of an idea of where they are).

That said, I dunno if its Toei only. I could try rechecking the manga real quick to see.
Click to expand...


No I think it happens in manga to I believe since remember he still had still had to bring Dende from the Namek to Earth to become new Dragon Ball creator....hence why the wish count of Shenron goes from 1 to 2
It is important plot point afterall.
 
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