ZetaMarishi
He/Him- 616
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I didn't see a ton of people arguing for Low 1-C in that thread. I saw more people arguing 3-A.
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The reason for this is that Universe 7 by itself has already been shown to contain parallel space-time continuums within its globe, such as the Room of Spirit and Time, which is still affected by time travel; which proves that the new timelines can encompass other space-times as well, and thus the events in the Future Trunks Saga don't prove anything in the way of the universes being physically connected.
So the thing is as of present the the universes( U1 to U12) are separate space-times....and their collective is treated as a "timeline"....and as we know the space between space-times is 4D space....this along with treatment of the macroverse as "timeline" leads to presense of hypertimeline so to speak. Which is pretty much Low1C or 5D.What the hell?
Regarding the whole, nothing in canon states the universes to be seperate space-times, I believe the issue with that as a criticism is that almost no fiction overtly states that a universe is its own space-time, it's either shown or it isn't. Therefore that point hinges on the rest of this argument being proven true or not.I'm going to copypaste since it was clearly ignored
Going by Herms translation of what Whis said:
Whis: "Manipulating time to travel between the past and future is a serious felony. Time is only supposed to flow in one, single direction. If you turn back time and change the past, even if you only, say, pick a single flower, it affects subsequent history. Cities and even entire cultures could be greatly altered, and ultimately, it might result in a planet being erased from the universe."
Fact Checker (update: Ep.51) • Kanzenshuu
www.kanzenshuu.com
Statement is in the 2nd spoiler at the bottom within the [Future Trunks Arc] section of the post, dunno why he didn't include eps numbers lol.
But anyways, What Whis says here is straightforward. Timelines in dbs only move one direction, and any alterations causes massive changes. If dbz initially implied there were multiple seperate space-times within a Macrocosm, which were very vague to begin with, that long has been retconned by this statement.
Just to talk about the Buu saga statement that gets posted around a lot, about the afterlife being a place with no time. I believe people are talking that statement out of context, after rereading the Buu saga I'm convinced what Goku was referring to was simply his undead body and how it doesn't age and how it is more energy efficient in handling ssj3 than being alive, nothing to do with different flows of time.
And this
No one is seriously saying that DBS is going to be Low 1-C ofc, is just a way to say that timelines should be such if we seriously count them as their own space-time, however:
These 4 alone prove that 2-C is obviously wrong, and even Low 2-C, since time wasn't destroyed, so just 3-A for DBS anime.
- Whis statement of all the universes being part of a single history
- Time Travel paradox cloning all the universes instead of just U7
- Zeno not erasing time as proved from Time Machine returning to Future Timeline
- Nothing stated that ROSAT or the Universes are their own space-time
Let's take the note under Zeno page as well
>We consider the universes in Dragon Ball alternate time-spaces relative to each other, hence why Zen'ō is rated as 2-C, despite the events in the Goku Black Saga showing parallel timelines encompassing the whole of the multiverse.
Nothing in canon stated that they are their own space-time.
ROSAT is just a planet sized pocket dimension where time is messed up, not a space-time continuum lol
Manga is a different canon so not usable, also Manga Time Machine is actually justfied from Bulma explanation, but Anime isn't.This happens in the manga despite the time ring being destroyed.
- Zeno not erasing time as proved from Time Machine returning to Future Timeline
Issue is that said fictions most of the time have some hints, while DBS points to the oppositeI believe the issue with that as a criticism is that almost no fiction overtly states that a universe is its own space-time, it's either shown or it isn't.
Infinite Zamasu's Low 2-C rating comes purely from his sheer size and has nothing to do with his ki.But anyway, Zamasu is clearly Low 2-C in his Infinite form; he is literally becoming one with time and space while only merged with Universe 7. Unless Universe 7 is a 3-A sized pocket reality; which is unlikely and a bigger assumption, that is a Low 2-C feat right there. And those who scale above him are also Low 2-C.
Was it stated though that it's Infinite Zamasu specifically?Except Infinite Zamasu still has a Power level that was clearly stated by Whis to be inferior to Jiren's. that's the real game changer.
This doesn't really belong on this threadInfinite Zamasu's Low 2-C rating comes purely from his sheer size and has nothing to do with his ki.
We have no statements of Infinite Zamasu having increased ki from before, as well as nothing nothing that he became stronger than before aside from his obvious change due to his size
This is basically also the reason why no one scales to Immeasurable LS from IZ, as both his tier and LS ratings comes purely from his size rather than his ki, meaning scaling to IZ is wrong
Whis did also mention that he sensed Infinite Zamasu's energy so he definitely has kiExcept Infinite Zamasu still has a Power level that was clearly stated by Whis to be inferior to Jiren's. that's the real game changer.
Whis sensed Infinite Zamasu's energy when he appeared in the presentWas it stated though that it's Infinite Zamasu specifically?
Whis wasn't there when Infinite Zamasu has appeared
Is pretty irrelevant as Zamasu's feat is still 3-A and it appearing in other space-times is still just range for the reasons I already said.Except Infinite Zamasu still has a Power level that was clearly stated by Whis to be inferior to Jiren's. that's the real game changer.
We already had this thread dozens of time and we always came to the same conclusion, I don't see any reason it would change since the thread linked bring no new questions. Only reason this thread could have a different outcome despite the same discussion and answers would just that one side got a more eloquent proponent than usual / the knowledgable members that usualy represented the case for DB didn't show up.Due to this thread, contention arose on whether or not the universes in Dragon Ball Super are their own space-time continuums. As suggested later in said thread, this one will be a discussion to iron out the actual nature of the 12 universes in the series.
I ask all people to keep this discussion civil and polite.
IZ feats aren't tier 2, timeline/space time continuum wasnt mentioned, time machine being used to travel after the supposed destruction of timeline (that didnt happend on anime, because the time ring wasnt erased), neither IZ or Zeno had tier 2 feat on black arcExcept Infinite Zamasu still has a Power level that was clearly stated by Whis to be inferior to Jiren's. that's the real game changer.
The time ring was erased in the anime, when Gowasu put back the box, you can count the number of rings and there's clearly one less than there should be if Trunks's timeline wasn't erased.IZ feats aren't tier 2, timeline/space time continuum wasnt mentioned, time machine being used to travel after the supposed destruction of timeline (that didnt happend on anime, because the time ring wasnt erased)
Except his size is literaly just his energy, he has no physical body anymore, that got destroyed.Infinite Zamasu's Low 2-C rating comes purely from his sheer size and has nothing to do with his ki.
We have no statements of Infinite Zamasu having increased ki from before, as well as nothing nothing that he became stronger than before aside from his obvious change due to his size
This is basically also the reason why no one scales to Immeasurable LS from IZ, as both his tier and LS ratings comes purely from his size rather than his ki, meaning scaling to IZ is wrong
Can u show it? I legit don't remember it.The time ring was erased in the anime, when Gowasu put back the box, you can count the number of rings and there's clearly one less than there should be if Trunks's timeline wasn't erased.
Overtime feat that never succeded, so?Also there's also the problem that this site blatantly ignore Zamasu becoming the whole future timeline anyway.
This makes Zeno's feat Low 2-C and nothing else at bestThe time ring was erased in the anime, when Zamasu put back the box, you can count the number of rings and there's clearly one less than there should be if Trunks's timeline wasn't erased.
It was supported from lots of stuff tbhEh I'm leaning towards PIS for the whole time machine thing since Goku could even breathe in that "void"
I argue for neither 3-A nor 1-C, just close the thread because it's an over-discussed subject and I see nothing on this thread that wasn't discussed ad-nauseamI didn't see a ton of people arguing for Low 1-C in that thread. I saw more people arguing 3-A.
That would mean that other characters would scale to his lifting strength too, since he got both his tier and lifting strength from his size and PL measures that too.Except Infinite Zamasu still has a Power level that was clearly stated by Whis to be inferior to Jiren's. that's the real game changer.
It's not overtime nor did it, what didn't succeed is taking over other timeline.Overtime feat that never succeded, so?
That still make what you said false and thus make the argument around it shaky at best.This makes Zeno's feat Low 2-C and nothing else at best
can u show a proof of the time ring being erased in the anime?It's not overtime nor did it, what didn't succeed is taking over other timeline.
That still make what you said false and thus make the argument around it shaky at best.
Zamasu shouldn't even have a lifting strength cause he clearly isn't a physical being anymore so it would be 'unknown' or 'unquantifiable' at best.That would mean that other characters would scale to his lifting strength too, since he got both his tier and lifting strength from his size and PL measures that too.
Thing is, if we currently accept Zeno to have destroyed the entire timeline then he'd scale to Low 1-C.I argue for neither 3-A nor 1-C, just close the thread because it's an over-discussed subject and I see nothing on this thread that wasn't discussed ad-nauseam
What explanation are you talking about? Show scans.Manga is a different canon so not usable, also Manga Time Machine is actually justfied from Bulma explanation, but Anime isn't.
Immeasurable LS is valid as he's literally fused with an entire space-time continuumZamasu shouldn't even have a lifting strength cause he clearly isn't a physical being anymore so it would be 'unknown' or 'unquantifiable' at best.
A quite off topic, but funny that my second notification happens to be your comment.can u show a proof of the time ring being erased in the anime?
You mean Goku breathing in the void is supported or?It was supported from lots of stuff tbh
Can we drop the scaling for Zamasu it doesn't have to do with this threadImmeasurable LS is valid as he's literally fused with an entire space-time continuum
What isn't valid is scaling that to anyone else