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Dragon Ball Super Cosmology Discussion

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I didn't see a ton of people arguing for Low 1-C in that thread. I saw more people arguing 3-A.
 
Well regardless, let's just settle things here first.
 
I'm going to copypaste since it was clearly ignored

Going by Herms translation of what Whis said:

Whis: "Manipulating time to travel between the past and future is a serious felony. Time is only supposed to flow in one, single direction. If you turn back time and change the past, even if you only, say, pick a single flower, it affects subsequent history. Cities and even entire cultures could be greatly altered, and ultimately, it might result in a planet being erased from the universe."



Fact Checker (update: Ep.51) • Kanzenshuu​


www.kanzenshuu.com

Statement is in the 2nd spoiler at the bottom within the [Future Trunks Arc] section of the post, dunno why he didn't include eps numbers lol.

But anyways, What Whis says here is straightforward. Timelines in dbs only move one direction, and any alterations causes massive changes. If dbz initially implied there were multiple seperate space-times within a Macrocosm, which were very vague to begin with, that long has been retconned by this statement.


Just to talk about the Buu saga statement that gets posted around a lot, about the afterlife being a place with no time. I believe people are talking that statement out of context, after rereading the Buu saga I'm convinced what Goku was referring to was simply his undead body and how it doesn't age and how it is more energy efficient in handling ssj3 than being alive, nothing to do with different flows of time.

And this

No one is seriously saying that DBS is going to be Low 1-C ofc, is just a way to say that timelines should be such if we seriously count them as their own space-time, however:
  • Whis statement of all the universes being part of a single history
  • Time Travel paradox cloning all the universes instead of just U7
  • Zeno not erasing time as proved from Time Machine returning to Future Timeline
  • Nothing stated that ROSAT or the Universes are their own space-time
These 4 alone prove that 2-C is obviously wrong, and even Low 2-C, since time wasn't destroyed, so just 3-A for DBS anime.

Let's take the note under Zeno page as well

>We consider the universes in Dragon Ball alternate time-spaces relative to each other, hence why Zen'ō is rated as 2-C, despite the events in the Goku Black Saga showing parallel timelines encompassing the whole of the multiverse.

Nothing in canon stated that they are their own space-time.

The reason for this is that Universe 7 by itself has already been shown to contain parallel space-time continuums within its globe, such as the Room of Spirit and Time, which is still affected by time travel; which proves that the new timelines can encompass other space-times as well, and thus the events in the Future Trunks Saga don't prove anything in the way of the universes being physically connected.
Click to expand...

ROSAT is just a planet sized pocket dimension where time is messed up, not a space-time continuum lol
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
What the hell?
Click to expand...
So the thing is as of present the the universes( U1 to U12) are separate space-times....and their collective is treated as a "timeline"....and as we know the space between space-times is 4D space....this along with treatment of the macroverse as "timeline" leads to presense of hypertimeline so to speak. Which is pretty much Low1C or 5D.
 
StrymULTRA said:
I'm going to copypaste since it was clearly ignored

Going by Herms translation of what Whis said:

Whis: "Manipulating time to travel between the past and future is a serious felony. Time is only supposed to flow in one, single direction. If you turn back time and change the past, even if you only, say, pick a single flower, it affects subsequent history. Cities and even entire cultures could be greatly altered, and ultimately, it might result in a planet being erased from the universe."



Fact Checker (update: Ep.51) • Kanzenshuu​


www.kanzenshuu.com

Statement is in the 2nd spoiler at the bottom within the [Future Trunks Arc] section of the post, dunno why he didn't include eps numbers lol.

But anyways, What Whis says here is straightforward. Timelines in dbs only move one direction, and any alterations causes massive changes. If dbz initially implied there were multiple seperate space-times within a Macrocosm, which were very vague to begin with, that long has been retconned by this statement.


Just to talk about the Buu saga statement that gets posted around a lot, about the afterlife being a place with no time. I believe people are talking that statement out of context, after rereading the Buu saga I'm convinced what Goku was referring to was simply his undead body and how it doesn't age and how it is more energy efficient in handling ssj3 than being alive, nothing to do with different flows of time.

And this

No one is seriously saying that DBS is going to be Low 1-C ofc, is just a way to say that timelines should be such if we seriously count them as their own space-time, however:
  • Whis statement of all the universes being part of a single history
  • Time Travel paradox cloning all the universes instead of just U7
  • Zeno not erasing time as proved from Time Machine returning to Future Timeline
  • Nothing stated that ROSAT or the Universes are their own space-time
These 4 alone prove that 2-C is obviously wrong, and even Low 2-C, since time wasn't destroyed, so just 3-A for DBS anime.

Let's take the note under Zeno page as well

>We consider the universes in Dragon Ball alternate time-spaces relative to each other, hence why Zen'ō is rated as 2-C, despite the events in the Goku Black Saga showing parallel timelines encompassing the whole of the multiverse.

Nothing in canon stated that they are their own space-time.



ROSAT is just a planet sized pocket dimension where time is messed up, not a space-time continuum lol
Click to expand...
Regarding the whole, nothing in canon states the universes to be seperate space-times, I believe the issue with that as a criticism is that almost no fiction overtly states that a universe is its own space-time, it's either shown or it isn't. Therefore that point hinges on the rest of this argument being proven true or not.
 
  • Zeno not erasing time as proved from Time Machine returning to Future Timeline
This happens in the manga despite the time ring being destroyed.
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
  • Zeno not erasing time as proved from Time Machine returning to Future Timeline
This happens in the manga despite the time ring being destroyed.
Click to expand...
Manga is a different canon so not usable, also Manga Time Machine is actually justfied from Bulma explanation, but Anime isn't.
 
Tyranno223 said:
I believe the issue with that as a criticism is that almost no fiction overtly states that a universe is its own space-time, it's either shown or it isn't.
Click to expand...
Issue is that said fictions most of the time have some hints, while DBS points to the opposite
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
But anyway, Zamasu is clearly Low 2-C in his Infinite form; he is literally becoming one with time and space while only merged with Universe 7. Unless Universe 7 is a 3-A sized pocket reality; which is unlikely and a bigger assumption, that is a Low 2-C feat right there. And those who scale above him are also Low 2-C.
Click to expand...
Infinite Zamasu's Low 2-C rating comes purely from his sheer size and has nothing to do with his ki.

We have no statements of Infinite Zamasu having increased ki from before, as well as nothing nothing that he became stronger than before aside from his obvious change due to his size

This is basically also the reason why no one scales to Immeasurable LS from IZ, as both his tier and LS ratings comes purely from his size rather than his ki, meaning scaling to IZ is wrong
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Infinite Zamasu's Low 2-C rating comes purely from his sheer size and has nothing to do with his ki.

We have no statements of Infinite Zamasu having increased ki from before, as well as nothing nothing that he became stronger than before aside from his obvious change due to his size

This is basically also the reason why no one scales to Immeasurable LS from IZ, as both his tier and LS ratings comes purely from his size rather than his ki, meaning scaling to IZ is wrong
Click to expand...
This doesn't really belong on this thread
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Except Infinite Zamasu still has a Power level that was clearly stated by Whis to be inferior to Jiren's. that's the real game changer.
Click to expand...
Is pretty irrelevant as Zamasu's feat is still 3-A and it appearing in other space-times is still just range for the reasons I already said.
 
Planck69 said:
Due to this thread, contention arose on whether or not the universes in Dragon Ball Super are their own space-time continuums. As suggested later in said thread, this one will be a discussion to iron out the actual nature of the 12 universes in the series.

I ask all people to keep this discussion civil and polite.
Click to expand...
We already had this thread dozens of time and we always came to the same conclusion, I don't see any reason it would change since the thread linked bring no new questions. Only reason this thread could have a different outcome despite the same discussion and answers would just that one side got a more eloquent proponent than usual / the knowledgable members that usualy represented the case for DB didn't show up.

That's an overdone discussion and we should really stop it, it always devolved into people copy pasting from the previous thread anyway.

Also there's also the problem that this site blatantly ignore Zamasu becoming the whole future timeline anyway.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Except Infinite Zamasu still has a Power level that was clearly stated by Whis to be inferior to Jiren's. that's the real game changer.
Click to expand...
IZ feats aren't tier 2, timeline/space time continuum wasnt mentioned, time machine being used to travel after the supposed destruction of timeline (that didnt happend on anime, because the time ring wasnt erased), neither IZ or Zeno had tier 2 feat on black arc
 
Bernkastelll said:
IZ feats aren't tier 2, timeline/space time continuum wasnt mentioned, time machine being used to travel after the supposed destruction of timeline (that didnt happend on anime, because the time ring wasnt erased)
Click to expand...
The time ring was erased in the anime, when Gowasu put back the box, you can count the number of rings and there's clearly one less than there should be if Trunks's timeline wasn't erased.
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Infinite Zamasu's Low 2-C rating comes purely from his sheer size and has nothing to do with his ki.

We have no statements of Infinite Zamasu having increased ki from before, as well as nothing nothing that he became stronger than before aside from his obvious change due to his size

This is basically also the reason why no one scales to Immeasurable LS from IZ, as both his tier and LS ratings comes purely from his size rather than his ki, meaning scaling to IZ is wrong
Click to expand...
Except his size is literaly just his energy, he has no physical body anymore, that got destroyed.
 
Eh I'm leaning towards PIS for the whole time machine thing since Goku could even breathe in that "void"
 
Dragomer said:
The time ring was erased in the anime, when Gowasu put back the box, you can count the number of rings and there's clearly one less than there should be if Trunks's timeline wasn't erased.
Click to expand...
Can u show it? I legit don't remember it.
 
Dragomer said:
Also there's also the problem that this site blatantly ignore Zamasu becoming the whole future timeline anyway.
Click to expand...
Overtime feat that never succeded, so?
Dragomer said:
The time ring was erased in the anime, when Zamasu put back the box, you can count the number of rings and there's clearly one less than there should be if Trunks's timeline wasn't erased.
Click to expand...
This makes Zeno's feat Low 2-C and nothing else at best
 
ZetaMarishi said:
I didn't see a ton of people arguing for Low 1-C in that thread. I saw more people arguing 3-A.
Click to expand...
I argue for neither 3-A nor 1-C, just close the thread because it's an over-discussed subject and I see nothing on this thread that wasn't discussed ad-nauseam
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Except Infinite Zamasu still has a Power level that was clearly stated by Whis to be inferior to Jiren's. that's the real game changer.
Click to expand...
That would mean that other characters would scale to his lifting strength too, since he got both his tier and lifting strength from his size and PL measures that too.
 
Dragomer said:
It's not overtime nor did it, what didn't succeed is taking over other timeline.


That still make what you said false and thus make the argument around it shaky at best.
Click to expand...
can u show a proof of the time ring being erased in the anime?
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
That would mean that other characters would scale to his lifting strength too, since he got both his tier and lifting strength from his size and PL measures that too.
Click to expand...
Zamasu shouldn't even have a lifting strength cause he clearly isn't a physical being anymore so it would be 'unknown' or 'unquantifiable' at best.
 
Dragomer said:
I argue for neither 3-A nor 1-C, just close the thread because it's an over-discussed subject and I see nothing on this thread that wasn't discussed ad-nauseam
Click to expand...
Thing is, if we currently accept Zeno to have destroyed the entire timeline then he'd scale to Low 1-C.
 
The cosmology has been debated several times and it's perfectly fine as it is.
  • Do not attempt to change the current Dragon Ball cosmology and power ratings without new evidence from an ongoing manga or anime series. We have heard all of the arguments many times before, and are so exhausted of constantly dealing with those topics that bringing them up recurrently leads to nowhere, with the discussion threads being oftentimes closed immediately.
 
Just a heads up; Whis and Beerus have never actually seen Zamasu or physically felt his power level outside of Infinite Zamasu. Present Zamasu was noted to be pretty weak compared to Goku, and they did see Goku Black, but never sensed his true power. The only real time they would note him as "Strongest enemy Goku ever faced" would specifically be Infinite Zamasu. I don't even think Zamasu would even be their first comparison if they simply compared him to present Zamasu or base form Goku Black. Also, people are still ignoring the fact that Beerus wasn't threatened by Infinite Zamasu but was very scared of Jiren.
 
Dragomer said:
Zamasu shouldn't even have a lifting strength cause he clearly isn't a physical being anymore so it would be 'unknown' or 'unquantifiable' at best.
Click to expand...
Immeasurable LS is valid as he's literally fused with an entire space-time continuum

What isn't valid is scaling that to anyone else
 
We've been going at this discussion for over 3 years with the same points going back and forth over again 1000 times. Nothing seems to ever change about it. It can't hurt to contribute to one last topic on Vsbattles, I suppose?

"
  • It mixed Manga and Anime, which are counted as separate continuites, so is wrong regardless
  • Random Fairy Tail scans used as arguments
  • Universes still being physically connected in this pic, them being separated was just because of an huge mental gymnastic
So in short, everyone should go to 3-A, Zamasu didn't even fuse with the space-time either."

1: What the user is doing is using the manga as supporting evidence to elaborate what was already shown in the anime. The manga he uses to explain that in Dragon ball, time passing for each Space-Time is congruent with one another. This is why the same amount of years has passed since Trunk's went back to his Time-line to the main timeline that we know about. This is why in the Dragon ball World, you can use the same measurement for time for some scale for the whole Timeline, because time is congruent for same Space-Time or different Space-Times.

2. The old forums had random images generate for the blogs. That happened to mine as well a couple years back, so the fairly tail pictures weren't the original images in the blog for their argument. You can try setting them to its earliest date to get back the original images.

3. Your link is broke, but if I was to assume what you're using, it's probably the Shenron scene. Which, as far as I'm aware, were never shown to be physically connected. It's suppose to represent each Universe to be shown in their own, 'Sphere' right by each other Universe. Which, means that they're at least spatially disconnected. This does not show one way or another that they if the same Space-Time or not.

Anyways. Here's one main form of evidence that makes this whole idea that they're in the same Space-Time contrived;

1) Goku is completely incapable of going to any Universe without the need of Whis, despite being able to instant transmission to any spatially disconnected place (So long as the Ki signature is strong enough. He can already sense beings Universe distance across at Ssj2 Gohan level. They're plenty of people in the other Universes that he can instant transmission to, yet he doesn't.)

We already know the Hyperbolic Time Chamber is a disjointed Space-Time from the the Space-Time of U7 within Kami's lookout. Similarly, there's an all encompassing Timeline in Dragon ball, that has disjointed Space-Times (In this case, the lookout)

So all the examples actually listed to debunk the idea that they're not in the same Space-Time resorts to talking about how time passes by similarly for each Universe, but resorts to ignoring this working the exact same for what we know to be different Space-Times. (Trunks timeline with the main series timeline), and using artistic depictions that doesn't really demonstrate one way or another if they've the same Space-Time or not.

So with this in mind, and that Universe should automatically be assumed to be in the same Space-Time unless there's an example that outright doesn't allow for that to be the case (Taking into consideration how the series treats Space-Time), this thread fails to explain it.

As for this whole Infinite Zamasu thing, he embodies the Space-Time of Universe 7 (By him being capable of affect other Timelines by his being and not using any external source to Time travel). I'll argue that Zeno destroyed just Zamasu (And the whole U7), and not the whole Timeline - We know this because his actual guards were never erased, and the time ring was still there

So feat wise, anime Zeno is Low 2-C by destroying Zamasu, but 2-C by statements by being capable of erasing the whole Timeline. The manga on the other hand outrights shows Zeno destroying the Time-line and his guards are gone. Thus, he's also 2-C.
 
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