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DBH Revision?

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GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
No I think it happens in manga to I believe since remember he still had still had to bring Dende from the Namek to Earth to become new Dragon Ball creator....hence why the wish count of Shenron goes from 1 to 2
It is important plot point afterall.
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Yup I found it, it's in this chapter. To go along with that issue I pointed out too, there's another smaller issue along with it that should be brought up. When Piccolo asks Goku if he'd really be able to sense out New Namek, Goku believes he could as long as it's not too far away from his position.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Yup I found it, it's in this chapter. To go along with that issue I pointed out too, there's another smaller issue along with it that should be brought up. When Piccolo asks Goku if he'd really be able to sense out New Namek, Goku believes he could as long as it's not too far away from his position.
Click to expand...

This is because the namekians have a very low ki signature, which makes it more difficult to sense them the further the way they're away. This is explained more clearly when Goku is trying to sense Vegeta when he was in his base in Super (Because Beerus planet is on the other side of the Universe), but later on, he's able to teleport to Beerus planet without any trouble because everyone's ki is a lot higher.

The Hyperbolic time chamber is a pocket dimension that's spatially separated within the Lookout itself. So, distance wouldn't particularly be a problem here.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Yup I found it, it's in this chapter. To go along with that issue I pointed out too, there's another smaller issue along with it that should be brought up. When Piccolo asks Goku if he'd really be able to sense out New Namek, Goku believes he could as long as it's not too far away from his position.
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That is a limitation of his sensing ability not IT.
Since remeber he cannot IT blind.

Let me give an equivalnce , if a Ballistic Missile doesn't have proper coordinates of its target it can never hit it...even if it is in range.

Sensing range and IT range is different.
One is requirements of other hence it is limiting....but doesn't mean that range is a problem for IT.
Especially if feat of travelling to other dimension exist.
 
The fact that he could travel to after life, yet not to other universes is something. And also the U7 is spatially devised into after life, the living universe and the kai realm
 
Planck69 said:
Honestly, I would just wait for Zamasu to make their blog before continuing.

Though to be honest, considering how this thread has derailed so much, I wouldn't be opposed to remaking this a staff only thread with Zamasu obviously being allowed to participate.

Just my thoughts, I'll see what DDM and Ultima think.
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@Ultima_Reality @DarkDragonMedeus and other staff members here:

Do you think that this would be a good idea, in order to avoid constant message spam and derailment?
 
Giygas3 said:
This is because the namekians have a very low ki signature, which makes it more difficult to sense them the further the way they're away.
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Being more difficult is one thing, but that wouldn't negate the present issue that distance is also factored in to Goku not being capable of traveling to other far away places in the same universe with IT, as he's repeatedly said has been the case, or part of the case, of why it wouldn't work.

Basically, if all it was in the end was just a matter of energy levels, then it being "too far away" would never be a problem in the first place.
Giygas3 said:
This is explained more clearly when Goku is trying to sense Vegeta when he was in his base in Super (Because Beerus planet is on the other side of the Universe), but later on, he's able to teleport to Beerus planet without any trouble because everyone's ki is a lot higher.
Click to expand...
The same as before. I don't deny KI levels being a present issue with Goku not being able to use IT, but I disagree with it being the main issue. Distance is factored into it as well as Goku has maintained at least twice before earlier on.
Giygas3 said:
The Hyperbolic time chamber is a pocket dimension that's spatially separated within the Lookout itself. So, distance wouldn't particularly be a problem here.
Click to expand...
Sure, but my reason for bringing this issue up was moreso about using IT as a kind of supporting point for the other universes being spatially and temporarily separated. Not the HTC (which is separated by both).
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
That is a limitation of his sensing ability not IT.
Since remeber he cannot IT blind.

Let me give an equivalnce , if a Ballistic Missile doesn't have proper coordinates of its target it can never hit it...even if it is in range.

Sensing range and IT range is different.
One is requirements of other hence it is limiting....but doesn't mean that range is a problem for IT.
Especially if feat of travelling to other dimension exist.
Click to expand...
This I true though. It doesn't matter how far Goku can go with IT if he can't sense the Ki signature in the first place.

as Gilver said, these 2 are probably separated so mixing them is probably not a good idea
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
The same as before. I don't deny KI levels being a present issue with Goku not being able to use IT, but I disagree with it being the main issue. Distance is factored into it as well as Goku has maintained at least twice before earlier on.
Click to expand...
Distance is only an issue in regards to his sensory range, not the range for his Instantaneous Movement technique. They are completely unrelated abilities, but his Teleportation happens to rely on him picking up energy signatures via sensing.

This is just a case of him being unable to sense the Namekians, both due to their weak energy signatures and his ignorance of their current location (which means he doesn't even know where to look). It's not a limitation for his Teleportation range, but his sensory capabilities.
 
Vietthai96 said:
Yes, this is the evident of Goku can't IT cross spartial-disconnected. That is the thing
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Why are we talking about this here that's canon Goku xeno Goku has shown to be able to use it to teleport himself into the crack of time
 
"Being more difficult is one thing, but that wouldn't negate the present issue that distance is also factored in to Goku not being capable of traveling to other far away places in the same universe with IT, as he's repeatedly said has been the case, or part of the case, of why it wouldn't work."

Yes, I agree with this. Both are heavy factors, but Distance is mainly only an issue depending on how large the ki source is.

" I don't deny KI levels being a present issue with Goku not being able to use IT, but I disagree with it being the main issue. Distance is factored into it as well as Goku has maintained at least twice before earlier on."

What makes you say it's the main issue? From what I'm reading for it, all it seems to be is that the namekians ki source would be the main reason for why Goku is unsure he could travel that far, if the planet is too far away. It's a sensory problem and not a limitation to the ability itself.C

"Sure, but my reason for bringing this issue up was moreso about using IT as a kind of supporting point for the other universes being spatially and temporarily separated. Not the HTC (which is separated by both)."

And that's one main point that I brought up in the previous thread: SSj2 Gohan level is already high enough for Goku to sense across Universal distance. They're so many people in the other Universes with ki that makes that look pathetic that he could IT too, yet he seems just unable to do it period. Distance in this scenario is not the problem.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
"snapshots" is just the term I use for the lower-dimensional cross-sections of spacetime, of which there are uncountably infinitely-many by necessity, since space and time being continuous and defined over the field of the real numbers is the standard assumption, both here and in physics as a whole. So, yeah, the "snapshots" are a direct result of the extra axes.
Click to expand...
By snapshot I assume you mean instances of the spatial activites right? Though I still dont get where the uncountable infinity part comes from.It being continuous is okay I can see,it doesn't vary over time but why is it being defined over field of real numbers in physics or here?.So why is "snapshots" exactly the result of extra temporal axis is which is what I assume you meant by extra axis
Ultima_Reality said:
Hypervolume is just a measure of the amount of higher-dimensional space encompassed by any given object, and it applies to any construct, be it a tesseract or a timeline. A spacetime continuum that extends infinitely across all axes is a bit different in that it doesn't exist as an object to be measured within a n-dimensional space: It is the field of measurement itself, and thus its hypervolume is ∞, and it cannot be meaningfully embedded within a space of the same dimension. If anything, it'd only be a subset of that space insofar as every set is a subset of itself, but both of them would still have the same size, and neither would be larger than the other.
Click to expand...
Yes,Hypervolume is measure of volume of higher dimensional shapes however thats for 4D spatial shapes like for example Tesseract and not space and time continuum due to it being consequence of 3 spatial+1 temporal dimension rather than consequences of additional spatial axis which would be applicable for hypervolume.Okay..if its field of measurement itself then why cant be actually embedded within same dimension(which I assume you mean larger 4th spatial space) and why would hypervolume of space and time continum be infinite when it would be inapplicable due to there not existing any higher spatial dimension which a hypervolume would require as its simply higher dimensions variant of volume which operates on spatial axis ie length,breadth and depth.
Ultima_Reality said:
That's why, for an infinitely-extended timeline to be contained in an overarching flow of time, the latter would have to be a higher temporal dimension. But if the timeline is finite, it the latter could indeed just be a space with a bigger hypervolume.
Click to expand...
Why cant a infinitely extending timeline(not even sure what you mean by that? Do you mean timeline going for infinity?) be under a space of bigger infinite hypervolume or rather why is the presence of a higher temporal dimension required in order to encompass space and time continums?


As much as I would like to comment on this HTC and Afterlife stuff,why is it being discussed here? It shouldn't really affect the tiering of Xeno Goku or the arguments for Low 1-C so its kind of derailing and should be dealt with in other threads
 
Indeed
A seperate thread for canon DBS cosmology which would be relevant to Afterlife,HTC,ki sensing should be made.Since discussing it here is derailing the conversation hard and its not helping the topic of Low 1-C DBH arguments like at all....
 
Planck69 said:
If I may ask, is the main point of contention now if the 12 universes are separate space-times?
Click to expand...
Yes which in my opinion is derailing the Low 1-C DBH/DBX upgrade hard as the proposed argument for Low 1-C upgrade doesn't have to do much with canon DBS cosmology
 
Are you referring to Fu's new universe by any chance? Either way yeah structure of 12 universes is frankly irrelevant to cosmology of the DBX/DBH which has infinite timelines so yeah it should stop to be honest

We should instead agree/disagree or remain neutral to Ultima's response regarding Low 1-C upgrades,I have already proposed my disagreements.
 
My_area said:
Are you referring to Fu's new universe by any chance? Either way yeah structure of 12 universes is frankly irrelevant to cosmos of the DBX/DBH which has infinite timelines so yeah it should stop to be honest
Click to expand...
Yeah Fu's universe was stated to be a space-time
 
Planck69 said:
I recall there was a scan from Dragon Ball Heroes calling the universes space-times. The structure of the canon 12 universes shouldn't be the focus of the discussion at all, at least for now.
Click to expand...
Precisely. For that, that would need to be discussed for the main continuity Dragon ball and not this one. But, wasn't this topic going to go to another thread which was staff only? (Or at least, currently planning on doing so)?

Don't know much of anything about Heroes, so I don't have an opinion on it. I think it's probably best to wait for Zamasu to finish his blog before continuing this discussion?
 
This is exactly why the cosmology problem should've been agreed on and actually officially written somewhere before we did this. Because now we're repeating the exact same discussion on whether or not the universes are separate space-times once again.

We need to officially deal with that before this thread can continue.
 
Many apologies if I came of as harsh right now....kinda sleepy and grumpy since it is past 00:00.
But I suggest we lock this thread untill cosmology blog is complete....
Since I don't like that we are attacking the universes again and questioning whether they are separate space-times.

Either A) we accept them low2C as facts now as they are on this wiki and proceed with Low1C and discuss its ramifications...

Or B) we lock this thread and discuss the space-time separateness of universes in different thread after DB cosmology blog is completed.

Again many apologies.🙏🙏
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
This is exactly why the cosmology problem should've been agreed on and actually officially written somewhere before we did this. Because now we're repeating the exact same discussion on whether or not the universes are separate space-times once again.

We need to officially deal with that before this thread can continue.
Click to expand...
This is true. I guess the issue with Medeus, Gyigas and co. Is that they've debunked the same arguments for 3 years.


The problem is not the point of contention, the arguments are
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Many apologies if I came of as harsh right now....kinda sleepy and grumpy since it is past 00:00.
But I suggest we lock this thread untill cosmology blog is complete....
Since I don't like that we are attacking the universes again and questioning whether they are separate space-times.

Either A) we accept them low2C as facts now as they are on this wiki and proceed with Low1C and discuss its ramifications...

Or B) we lock this thread and discuss the space-time separateness of universes in different thread after DB cosmology blog is completed.

Again many apologies.🙏🙏
Click to expand...
Honestly this. Lock the thread and deal with the cosmology crap once and for all

Then remake this as a staff thread with Zamasu and other trusted knowledgeable users to take part.
 
I think that's a wise idea.

@Antvasima Should we close this thread and remake it as a staff thread when Zamasu finishes compiling evidence?
 
If this thread is remade, are both DBS and Heroes cosmologies dealt with at the same time or do they get their own separate threads? Heroes definitely has more evidence than Super on the whole 12 universes stuff
 
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