Cross Marian Vs Zagred

[Deceived3596]

This argument that since the Purification effect only worked on Dark Matter, it wouldn't work on the negative mana/magic of Zagred or his Devil Heart is dookie.

Its literally the same argument people use to say that Juubi Jins can only be effected by Senjutsu or that only people with Reiryoku can see Souls.

Stop it and learn what verse equalization is.

 

[rawXDglomp]

Question is, is this a CRT for D gray man or black clover? Because simply listing purification for d gray man is wrong. But so is saying purification can beat devils as if literally any purification works. Or does it mean 'holy manipulation or HOLY purification' which would be more correct.
D gray man characters don't have HOLY purification.
What people think? CRT for the big D? For BC? Both?

 

[Deceived3596]

Because simply listing purification for d gray man is wrong

No it isn't.

But so is saying purification can beat devils as if literally any purification works

Not "literally" any purification works on Devils, it has to be Type 2 and it has to be combat-applicable.

Both of which Cross has through Innocence.

gray man characters don't have HOLY purification.

Yes they do, they posses Innocence which is the Holy equivalent to Dark Matter as stated and explained multiple times within the series.

What people think? CRT for the big D? For BC? Both?

Neither.

 

[rawXDglomp]

No it isn't.

Yea it is.
Simply listing purification suggests they can purify anything.
They can purify 1 (one) thing. Dark matter. That's it.

 

[Deceived3596]

No it isn't. It can and you haven't disprove that assertion. It can't only purify Dark Matter, that's a complete headcanon claim on your part.

 

[Arkenis]

Yea it is.
Simply listing purification suggests they can purify anything.
They can purify 1 (one) thing. Dark matter. That's it.

It literally says souls too and viruses. Im saying it can powernull dm but also purify the akumas virus and the souls inside Akumas. That isn't just one thing. Also dm is just energy that has several other attributes to it.

 

[rawXDglomp]

Souls and viruses are both a result of them purifying dark matter.

No it isn't. It can and you haven't disprove that assertion. It can't only purify Dark Matter, that's a complete headcanon claim on your part.

Also its headcannon on YOUR part that it can do more than its stated and shown to do.

 

[Arkenis]

Souls and viruses are both a result of them purifying dark matter.

The souls aren't made from dm in dgm? Did I miss that or something?

 

[rawXDglomp]

They're infected. Then they get purified. The core of the plot before the mc turns into an actual schizo and starts talking to an invisible man.

 

[Arkenis]

They're infected. Then they get purified. The core of the plot before the mc turns into an actual schizo and starts talking to an invisible man.

No? The souls are put into the Akuma body and the Akuma is purified of the soul.

 

[Deceived3596]

Souls and viruses are both a result of them purifying dark matter.

K? what does this prove exactly? Zagred's Physiology is comparable enough to Dark Matter to be equalized with it, so this entire argument doesn't even matter.

Also its headcannon on YOUR part that it can do more than its stated and shown to do.

I'm assuming it would work on Zagred given his physiology is comparable to what Dark Matter is, ergo it would be equalized with it.

Like i'm just gonna steelman both arguments and just say that Dark Matter is comparable enough to what Zagred has and his magic. So he's getting purified either way.

 

[rawXDglomp]

Zagred's Physiology is comparable enough to Dark Matter to be equalized with it, so this entire argument doesn't even matter.

Its not though, is the issue.
Dark matter is a magical substance that traps souls and evolves over time, the opposite of innocence, used largely by the noah family to be really broken.
Its a tool.
The devil is a living being that has nothing to do with dark matter or innocence beyond maybe considering innocence as being 'holy' because they call it a gift of god.
But said god has never actually appeared or done anything and its never been shown to actually be more than just the opposite of dark matter, least as far as I got in D gray man, which is very far.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Oh.... no

The people on this thread...

everyone calm and unity... Is something good

 

[Deceived3596]

Its not though, is the issue.
Dark matter is a magical substance that traps souls and evolves over time, the opposite of innocence, used largely by the noah family to be really broken.
Its a tool.
The devil is a living being that has nothing to do with dark matter or innocence beyond maybe considering innocence as being 'holy' because they call it a gift of god.
But said god has never actually appeared or done anything and its never been shown to actually be more than just the opposite of dark matter, least as far as I got in D gray man, which is very far.

It is and it isn't an issue.

No it isn't? Dark Matter is directly from the Earl's Soul which is in-turn used to create Dark Matter skeletons which are used by the Earl to seal away the souls of the dead through tricking grieving loved ones into saying their name, it isn't some "magical substance" nor isn't only just those things you've mention, those are just aspects of what Dark Matter is. It isn't a "Tool" either, literally don't know what in the hell you're talking about there.

Zagred isn't the "Devil" he's just a demon, him being living doesn't matter? like that isn't a debunk anything, Of course it has nothing to do with DM and Innocence, he isn't from D.Gray-Man but his physiology and magic are comparable enough to Dark Matter to be equalized. It's directly called the "Light" to the Dark Matter's "Black", its directly stated to be a gift from god and is used to purify evil entities known as Akuma, its Holy Manipulation, plain and simple. Doesn't matter? he actually has in the form of the Heart, you should know this if you have read DGM.

Like homie you're completely wrong about this entire argument.

 

[rawXDglomp]

Yea a substance he magically makes from his soul. Its a tool used by his family, made by him.
Demon, devil, whatever you want to call him. You're getting way too caught up on words rather than the actual point of the argument.

Innocence purifies dark matter.
The demon is not dark matter.
He's not comparable to dark matter.
Ergo, he's not purified like dark matter.

The holy manip I'll give you if you want. I don't really agree its holy (the characters calling it holy doesn't mean its literally from god) but I also don't really care enough to call them all wrong.

 

[LordGinSama]

Dark Matter is not Magical. Magic already exists in DGM and DM is abundantly different.

 

[rawXDglomp]

Anyways, moving on from whether or not cross can purify the other guy, what's the actual limit on this:
"Creation (With his Word Soul Magic, Zagred can create anything magical or non-magical/physical, cursing peoples, inducing pain and even mimic his opponents' abilities"
I assume he can't 'create anything' in reality. Because if he can then he'd stomp like 90% of fiction. How does the power copy work? Could he just mind-control cross with his own ability, since cross is effected by it according to his own page?
I dropped BC in the middle of this fight.

 

[Arkenis]

How is holy manipulation that unreasonable? The characters are exorcists, they fight demons, the power they use is from god, it purifies dark power from demons. This is like the most obvious holy manipulation.

 

[Deceived3596]

Yea a substance he magically makes from his soul. Its a tool used by his family, made by him.

It isn't a "Tool" used by the Earl and the Noah, it's their entire existence is based around Dark Matter, literally every ability they have is powered by Dark Matter, Noah's Memory's are powered by Dark Matter.

That isn't something a "Tool" would do.

Demon, devil, whatever you want to call him. You're getting way too caught up on words rather than the actual point of the argument.

No i'm not, i'm just correcting you.

Innocence purifies dark matter.
The demon is not dark matter.
He's not comparable to dark matter.
Ergo, he's not purified like dark matter.

Yeah? it's never stated that it ONLY purifies Dark Matter, that's headcanon on your part.

He's comparable to Dark Matter, that's all that matters.

Yes he is, they're both dark and evil things within their respective series and both require as specific weapon/magic to actually kill them, both feed of the souls and negative emotions of people, both corrupt things with their presence and both are powered through what's considered within each verse as "dark" or "evil" things.

Like literally look up what Saint Stage is and compared it to Innocence, they literally serve the same purpose as one another.

The holy manip I'll give you if you want. I don't really agree its holy (the characters calling it holy doesn't mean its literally from god) but I also don't really care enough to call them all wrong.

If you don't believe EXORCIST that PURIFY evil creatures using items which are directly stated to be from GOD and is the antithetical version of Dark Matter which is considered the BLACK to the Innocence WHITE isn't enough to get Holy Manipulation than you smoking something strong.

 

[rawXDglomp]

Like I said, I'll give you holy manip as its on the profile, even if it seems wrong in-verse until they actually show any sign of god existing.

 

[Arkenis]

Anyways, moving on from whether or not cross can purify the other guy, what's the actual limit on this:
"Creation (With his Word Soul Magic, Zagred can create anything magical or non-magical/physical, cursing peoples, inducing pain and even mimic his opponents' abilities"
I assume he can't 'create anything' in reality. Because if he can then he'd stomp like 90% of fiction. How does the power copy work? Could he just mind-control cross with his own ability, since cross is effected by it according to his own page?
I dropped BC in the middle of this fight.

I wouldn't say its very in character for him to use his copying ability off bat as he didn't and I don't remember when he copied another attack. His creation is only what's listed. And copying the mind manipulation would require him to have innocence and a corpse and sound manipulation so he probably isn't copying that.

 

[Arkenis]

Also the mind Manipulation kinda already got debunked/taken off the table as a win con and Cross usually doesn't use it to fight or win his fights its more of a way to stop someone or control them. He'd likely just go for judgement spam which is literally gonna **** up Zagred with the purification and heat manipulation of it.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

• Arcane Stage: Arcane Stage encompass mages who have deeply tapped into Forbidden Magic, and mages with the ability to interfere with the otherworld. For the former, characters that are able to borrow the power of what would qualify as a Devil in their respective verse (Unholy Manipulation) should be able to harm the heart of a Devil. As for the latter, not much is known as of now.
• Saint Stage: Saint Stage is a stage only Spirit users can achieve, they can destroy the heart of a Devil by cleaning/purifying evil. As such, characters with the ability Holy Manipulation or Purification should be able to bypass the Invulnerability of a Devil's heart.

Zagred is deeply tapped into forbidden magic aka unholy manipulation
Innocence uses purification which would be saint stage in bc. I'm saying Innocence > Forbidden Magic

It’s time to nuke that arcane explanation.. what the heck did I just read?

Well that’s another topic for another thread where I will explain with scans the differences between arcane, and forbidden magic

 

[Deceived3596]

"Creation (With his Word Soul Magic, Zagred can create anything magical or non-magical/physical, cursing peoples, inducing pain and even mimic his opponents' abilities"
I assume he can't 'create anything' in reality. Because if he can then he'd stomp like 90% of fiction. How does the power copy work?

He never use his Word Soul Magic to copy abilities after gaining his physical body and getting his 5 lead'd Grimoire from Patry, so it doesn't really matter in this fight given it's extremely OOC for him to use it.

Could he just mind-control cross with his own ability, since cross is effected by it according to his own page?

No because he literally has never done anything like this before, especially not within this Key.

 

[Arkenis]

It’s time to nuke that arcane explanation.. what the heck did I just read?

Well that’s another topic for another thread where I will explain with scans the differences between arcane, and forbidden magic

Well I did a little reading of bc and arcane magic just seems to be unusual magic, its noted that people like Yami, Julius, Secre, and Asta all fit the category of it which seems to go against it being unholy but idk.

 

[Arkenis]

This is what saint stage is in case some don't know (I didn't)

 

[rawXDglomp]

I wouldn't say its very in character for him to use his copying ability off bat as he didn't and I don't remember when he copied another attack. His creation is only what's listed. And copying the mind manipulation would require him to have innocence and a corpse and sound manipulation so he probably isn't copying that.

Shame. If he could just have his own Maria he'd win fairly easily. He's like a walking wall of hax so it really feels like he should win but at the same time he also has to physically speak to use like half his tools and he seems to have no resistance at all to timeslow. Timeslow should slow down his speach making a lot of what he has a lot less practical, to the point he probably can't spawn barriers fast enough to beat cross's homing bullets.
Not seeing what stops him from just pulling cross over though with tele. He's massively higher ls. Then stabbing with his hax deconstruction weapon.

 

[Arkenis]

Not seeing what stops him from just pulling cross over though with tele. He's massively higher ls. Then stabbing with his hax deconstruction weapon.

Seems like a decent win con for him but again, the time slow would kinda prevent any further action to happen after teleporting Cross plus Cross would probably have fired bullets before Zagred even says come here so he'd deal with the bullets or say "return" like he usually does to projectiles or "vacuum wall" to block them.

Also look at how quick Cross would slow attacks down, he'd probably finish this phrasing similar to how fast Zagred would finish a phrase and just slow Zagred down. Now granted I believe this is Cross's only time ever using this spell and its not used offensively here so you could argue he'd not use it but Cross would deduce that "Oh whatever he says come true let me stop that" and then do it.

 

[Arkenis]

Well just to recap for my sake and others in case others forget.


Cross's win cons are: Spams Judgement and has purification. Can time slow, slowing down Zagred's words and his ability to actually move.

Zagred's win cons are: "Vacuum Wall", his special spear which can warp space

Disagreements: Tanking Gravity Manipulation is not based on lifting strength and can be resisted through higher durability (for Cross)

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Well I did a little reading of bc and arcane magic just seems to be unusual magic, its noted that people like Yami, Julius, Secre, and Asta all fit the category of it which seems to go against it being unholy but idk.

Arcane stage is a stage where mages can use inexplicable and irregular magic that has the potential to defeat a devil. Irregular magic are types of magic that are created due to losing connection and protection from natural magic, which is why some magic types like steel magic, chain magic and even spatial magic are not natural or considered not to be. Some of these irregular magic types have the ability to change the specific law(s) of nature. These irregulars are arcane stage. Arcane stage is separate from the magic power stages as weaker mages can also be arcane stage mages although their magic can still be passively nullified and these mages can be overwhelmed with sheer magic power alone. This is why arcane stage mages like Nero, Vanessa, and Grey are still weak against high-ranking and supreme devils and need to amp their magic power or stamina somehow to use their arcane abilities more efficiently against these devils. Examples of arcane stage mages apart from those I've mentioned earlier include Yami, Vengeance, Asta, and Julius Novachrono.

Forbidden magic are forms of magic that enhance magic power with negative mana with the risk of being corrupted. If a lot of negative mana is used you will become a massive demon made up of it or if you use some of it the situation is less severe similar to Nero's situation. The less severe drawbacks can be offset by those loved by mana such as Yuno and Litch but they suffer if they use tremendous amounts of it. Negative mana is somewhat effective against devils. It cant be used to destroy a devil's heart but it can be used to at least compete with one or if you are a weak arcane mage you can enhance your magic power to defeat a devil

Saint Stage is correct.

Fun Fact: Nero, an arcane stage mage, used magic stones to amplify her magic with negative mana so she could perform sealing magic where the target is sealed forever. Arcane stage mages are typically haxy

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Also look at how quick Cross would slow attacks down,

That ain't quick my guy. That's literally several syllables compared to "come" and "here"

 

[Arkenis]

Forbidden magic are forms of magic that enhance magic power with negative mana with the risk of being corrupted. If a lot of negative mana is used you will become a massive demon made up of it or if you use some of it the situation is less severe similar to Nero's situation. The less severe drawbacks can be offset by those loved by mana such as Yuno and Litch but they suffer if they use tremendous amounts of it. Negative mana is somewhat effective against devils. It cant be used to destroy a devil's heart but it can be used to at least compete with one or if you are a weak arcane mage you can enhance your magic power to defeat a devil

So what Im getting is that Zagred would fit being negative mana? He calls himself negative things and also Lumiere also says he can sense malicious mana from him.

 

[Arkenis]

That ain't quick my guy. That's literally several syllables compared to "come" and "here"

Say "come" and "here" in Japanese and tell me how fast it is. Point is they can both talk to do an ability and after slowing Zagred down, it'll take him even longer to say another phrase to activate the word soul magic for it.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Well just to recap for my sake and others in case others forget.


Cross's win cons are: Spams Judgement and has purification. Can time slow, slowing down Zagred's words and his ability to actually move.

Zagred's win cons are: "Vacuum Wall", his special spear which can warp space

Disagreements: Tanking Gravity Manipulation is not based on lifting strength and can be resisted through higher durability (for Cross)

Thanks for summarizing the thread, I hadn't the time to read it all today.

Gravity manipulation was intended to be a wincon for Zagred right? Also, i saw some arguments above and I say that Tanking gravity manipulation only applies to LS.

 

[Arkenis]

Thanks for summarizing the thread, I hadn't the time to read it all today.

Gravity manipulation was intended to be a wincon for Zagred right? Also, i saw some arguments above and I say that Tanking gravity manipulation only applies to LS.

np. And yea its like his main win con as of now with the spear kinda being used in conjunction with the "come here".

 

[Arnoldstone18]

So what Im getting is that Zagred would fit being negative mana? He calls himself negative things and also Lumiere also says he can sense malicious mana from him.

Zagred would fit being just mana, however, their mana is filled with malice.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Say "come" and "here" in Japanese and tell me how fast it is.

HAHAHA

I see what you did there

Point is they can both talk to do an ability and after slowing Zagred down, it'll take him even longer to say another phrase to activate the word soul magic for it.

How about "Koi" vs "ON" "A" "u" "M" "Bind"

I wonder who finishes their phrase first

 

[Arkenis]

I wasn't gonna bring this up before but I just thought it'd be nice to let people know for now that Cross's lifting strength without having a calc done would put him in Class 10 going off Lenalee moving around with the weight of tens of thousands of pounds. https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/854355259999649802/854373938640453632/image0.png

 

[Arkenis]

HAHAHA

I see what you did there

How about "Koi" vs "ON" "A" "u" "M" "Bind"

I wonder who finishes their phrase first

I mean I can say that "on" "a" "u" "m" "bind" in one second and im just a human without super speed speech so I think cross can do it in a femtosecond but that's just me.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I wasn't gonna bring this up before but I just thought it'd be nice to let people know for now that Cross's lifting strength without having a calc done would put him in Class 10 going off Lenalee moving around with the weight of tens of thousands of pounds. https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/854355259999649802/854373938640453632/image0.png

In the Brazilian translation it says 40000 tons

Wtf