Cross Marian Vs Zagred

[speedster352]

Zagred: Gravity crush

Cross: Purification, Ap advantage (unless Zagred gets argued for higher)

I am pretty sure that zagred can pull off gravity crush and his spear before he dies so I vote for zagred

 

[Arkenis]

He can return the bullets to Cross. making it home in on Cross technically

He doesn't start with his spear and Innocence might unironcially negate it given that Zagred's magic might me equalized with Dark Matter and redirecting Judgement's bullets don't matter, they will consistently home onto their targets regardless of the obstacle.

What's Zagred's Heat resistance level? Cross's can turn Steel into ashes with Judgement and scales above Blue-Flame level heats.

He scales above mages who can be reduced to ashes with his mana skin. He can also just regen from it.

 

[Deceived3596]

Off-Topic: But Jasdevi Vs Zagred is a really cool match thematically, though Jasdevi stomps very badly so L to that hypothetical future match-up.

 

[Deceived3596]

He can return the bullets to Cross. making it home in on Cross technically

No? they only home onto Cross's opponents, even if they're "Return" back to Cross the'll just fly right passed him and go back to targeting Zagred.

He scales above mages who can be reduced to ashes with his mana skin. He can also just regen from it.

Instantly ashing Steel > Instantly reducing someone to ash from my recollection so i don't believe that level of heat resistances would allow him to resist the heat from Judgement's Bullets. He can regenerated from the heat but If Judgement's bullets hit him he's getting purified and deconstructed on a Molecular to Marco-Quantum Level, both of which he can't regenerate from.

Edit: And before someone ask Cross's Purification and Deconstruction are layered, they can bypass baseline resistances.

 

[Arkenis]

No? they only home onto Cross's opponents, even if they're "Return" back to Cross the'll just fly right passed him and go back to targeting Zagred.

Why would they if their homing has been reversed to home in on Cross now? They don't resist having this changed do they? And he should also be able to stop them with his binding word magic.

Instantly ashing Steel > Instantly reducing someone to ash from my recollection so i don't believe that level of heat resistances would allow him to resist the heat from Judgement's Bullets. He can regenerated from the heat but If Judgement's bullets hit him he's getting purified and deconstructed and he isn't regenerating from that.

Yea I'll concede that he likely will get destroyed by the heat alone.

 

[Deceived3596]

Why would they if their homing has been reversed to home in on Cross now? They don't resist having this changed do they? And he should also be able to stop them with his binding word magic.

The aren't reversed in that sense? "Return" just reflects the attacks of someone back onto them, which under normal circumstances with others characters would be a problem but not for Cross since Judgement's Bullets will continuously hunt Cross's opponent and Cross's opponent alone, even if his bullets are reflected back onto him or deflected into something else.

Yea I'll concede that he likely will get destroyed by the heat alone

Alright.

 

[Epsilon_R]

You can scale Zagred's heat resistance above that of the captains due to having more magic than them. Two of them, Nozel and Kaiser, managed to resist the heat of Fuegoleon who was able to vaporize a lake.

But even without heat resistant, Zagred would just recover from that.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Also what does Cross actually start with?

 

[Arkenis]

Also what does Cross actually start with?

Judgment, and brain puppet

 

[Epsilon_R]

I'm voting Zagred then.

Vaccum Wall is one of Zagred's first moves so he'll use it very early. Once he does Cross would be crushed to death

 

[speedster352]

I am voting zagred for ep’s reasons

 

[Arkenis]

I think its three votes for Cross and two for zagred. need more to vote though

 

[Deceived3596]

I think its three votes for Cross and two for zagred. need more to vote though

Its 1 or 2 for Cross (Gin hasn't given his vote yet but i'm feeling he leans Cross and Life hasn't vote yet either, i can't vote since i'm the OP) and 2 for Zagred (Speedster and Epsilon_R)

 

[LordGinSama]

Definitely voting Cross. I can't really see a way for Zag to get the W whenever all it takes is a single squeeze from Judgement to end it. All he needs is 5 pounds of pressure to pull the trigger then Judgement will do the rest for him, even under gravity.

 

[speedster352]

Definitely voting Cross. I can't really see a way for Zag to get the W whenever all it takes is a single squeeze from Judgement to end it. All he needs is 5 pounds of pressure to pull the trigger then Judgement will do the rest for him, even under gravity.

Vacuum wall exist passive power null and trident that deconstructs everything it touches and affected space.

 

[LordGinSama]

Vacuum wall exist passive power null and trident that deconstructs everything it touches and affected space.

Innocence and DM can negate one another and they interact with one another with zero issue.


Zag's Deconstruction is irrelevant, Cross can already counter with Innocence and has the better Deconstruction between the two. Cross has atomic to Quantum levels of Deconstruction, Zag only has Molecular.

 

[Epsilon_R]

You still haven't said how Cross can avoid being crushed to death

 

[Armityle]

I see cross taking the W here because it seems it comes down to innocence vs gravity hax but zagrid doesn't use the gravity hax immediately while innocence is and with the heat feat cross has it would seem he could just turn any of zagrid ranged attacks into ash if they get near so cross would just win via hax and innocence but I'm open to see if anyone has anything new/unique for zagrid

 

[Epsilon_R]

I see cross taking the W here because it seems it comes down to innocence vs gravity hax but zagrid doesn't use the gravity hax immediately while innocence is and with the heat feat cross has it would seem he could just turn any of zagrid ranged attacks into ash if they get near so cross would just win via hax and innocence but I'm open to see if anyone has anything new/unique for zagrid

I said earlier that gravity is one of his first moves. And heat is irrelevant in this battle if we're honest

 

[Deceived3596]

So from re-reading the fight between Zagred and "Crew" there's one thing that's coming from the BC side that i disagree with, which is Vacuum Wall.

1: While Vacuum Wall is one of Zagred's first moves (At least before getting his 5 leaf'd Grimoire) its not something he uses consistently and honestly he uses things like Iron Spear, Storm of Blades (Shown here again) and Life-Stealing magic from the Demonic Realm way more compared to Vacuum Wall (He doesn't even use Vacuum Wall again after gaining his 5 leaf'd Grimoire from Patry)

2: Vacuum Wall doesn't apply consistent pressure onto the target, it applies a heavy layer of gravity over a very specific area for a very limited amount of time so this is something that Zagred has to consistently keep saying for the gravity to be applied onto Cross longer than a couple seconds, which again isn't in character for Zagred to do.

3: Even if it was, again Cross's Durability scaling massively outscales any Low 6-B within Black Clover which includes Zagred, so he isn't killing Cross with Vacuum Wall and before anyone says something about GM negating Cross's Durability, Gravity Manipulation doesn't negate durability inherently without extra context like Gravity Manipulation from Eden Zero for an example, its not something we assume without extra evidence.

This is my disagreement with Vacuum Wall being a valid win-con for Zagred.

 

[Epsilon_R]

So from re-reading the fight between Zagred and "Crew" there's one thing that's coming from the BC side that i disagree with, which is Vacuum Wall.

1: While Vacuum Wall is one of Zagred's first moves (At least before getting his 5 leaf'd Grimoire) its not something he uses consistently and honestly he uses things like Iron Spear, Storm of Blades (Shown here again) and Life-Stealing magic from the Demonic Realm way more compared to Vacuum Wall (He doesn't even use Vacuum Wall again after gaining his 5 leaf'd Grimoire from Patry)

It doesn't matter if Zagred doesn't use it as much as his other moves, the point is that if he uses it even once, Cross would get crushed.

So yeah it's one of his first moves, and while he only used it once or twice again Asta and Yuno (due to the former negating his magic to begin with), It's still above characters with Class K lifting strength, so Cross would get squashed by the very moment Zagred uses it

2: Vacuum Wall doesn't apply consistent pressure onto the target, it applies a heavy layer of gravity over a very specific area for a very limited amount of time so this is something that Zagred has to consistently keep saying for the gravity to be applied onto Cross longer than a couple seconds, which again isn't in character for Zagred to do.

It does, what Zagred said "Get crushed", "...broken to pieces...", "riddled with holes" was just him inducing a stronger pressure at each word.

In fact, the very first vacuum wall still had enough pressure to put Asta in a very bad position.

Even if he couldn't hold it for long, which isn't the case and there's nothing implying that, it would STILL be long enough to crush Cross to death, just as well as it was enough to pin both Asta and Yuno down.

3: Even if it was, again Cross's Durability scaling massively outscales any Low 6-B within Black Clover which includes Zagred, so he isn't killing Cross with Vacuum Wall and before anyone says something about GM negating Cross's Durability, Gravity Manipulation doesn't negate durability inherently without extra context like Gravity Manipulation from Eden Zero for an example, its not something we assume without extra evidence.

I've said this many times, Durability HAS NOTHING to do with that, LIFTING STRENGTH DOES.

You need to get that already.

Even if there's Gravity Manipulation that doesn't rely on Lifting Strength, that is not the case in Black Clover.
You have characters stronger and more durable than base Asta, who got squashed by gravity and would have been crushed to death if they were closer to the center of gravity, while base Asta could fight against it.


Gravity in BC cannot be stopped by having higher durability, you need higher lifting strength. That's my final stance on this

 

[speedster352]

It doesn't matter if Zagred doesn't use it as much as his other moves, the point is that if he uses it even once, Cross would get crushed.

So yeah it's one of his first moves, and while he only used it once or twice again Asta and Yuno (due to the former negating his magic to begin with), It's still above characters with Class K lifting strength, so Cross would get squashed by the very moment Zagred uses it


It does, what Zagred said "Get crushed", "...broken to pieces...", "riddled with holes" was just him inducing a stronger pressure at each word.

In fact, the very first vacuum wall still had enough pressure to put Asta in a very bad position.

Even if he couldn't hold it for long, which isn't the case and there's nothing implying that, it would STILL be long enough to crush Cross to death, just as well as it was enough to pin both Asta and Yuno down.

I've said this many times, Durability HAS NOTHING to do with that, LIFTING STRENGTH DOES.

You need to get that already.

Even if there's Gravity Manipulation that doesn't rely on Lifting Strength, that is not the case in Black Clover.
You have characters stronger and more durable than base Asta, who got squashed by gravity and would have been crushed to death if they were closer to the center of gravity, while base Asta could fight against it.


Gravity in BC cannot be stopped by having higher durability, you need higher lifting strength. That's my final stance on this

Also zagred has passive powernull and reality-warping I agree he wins this

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Haha

Following

 

[Nierre]

Also Deceived, the OP can vote in their own threads, there was a thread about this and the staff said that they can

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also zagred has passive powernull and reality-warping I agree he wins this

The Reality Warping is just his Word Soul Magic. The passive powernull is limited to opponents with less magic power than himself, as it's scaling off of Vetto, who himself can passively nullify the attacks of those with weak magic power.

 

[Arkenis]

\
Is him saying vanish considered ee or is it just unlisted as an ability on his page? Cause this seems like ee of energy but not sure yet. I bring it up though cause Zagred should be able to erase some of cross's attacks as well.

 

[Deceived3596]

It doesn't matter if Zagred doesn't use it as much as his other moves, the point is that if he uses it even once, Cross would get crushed.

So yeah it's one of his first moves, and while he only used it once or twice again Asta and Yuno (due to the former negating his magic to begin with), It's still above characters with Class K lifting strength, so Cross would get squashed by the very moment Zagred uses it

It somewhat does given what Cross's Win-Con's are and the source they come from (Judgement) and Cross's isn't getting "Crushed" as you say given his durability massively scaling above Zagred's AP, he would be "Pressed" down to the ground for a couple of seconds, sure but he isn't being "Crushed".

He would get pressed and that's about it, he isn't killing Cross with it.

It does, what Zagred said "Get crushed", "...broken to pieces...", "riddled with holes" was just him inducing a stronger pressure at each word.

In fact, the very first vacuum wall still had enough pressure to put Asta in a very bad position.

Even if he couldn't hold it for long, which isn't the case and there's nothing implying that, it would STILL be long enough to crush Cross to death, just as well as it was enough to pin both Asta and Yuno down.

Proof? literally nothing implies this within the Manga, it might have been expanded upon in the Anime and if it was i'll be fine with conceding on that specific point.

Yeah? never denied that Cross would be pressed down by the pressure, i'm saying that he isn't getting killed by it given his massive durability scaling compared to Zagred's AP.

The fact that the pressure only lasted for a couple seconds as shown in the Manga? like re-read the specific scene and it literally only lasted for a couple of seconds, its not something that's constant. Dude look up what Gravitational Pressure is and why humans are able to resist some of it from things like the earth, its not just because of lifting strength, stop making this argument.

I've said this many times, Durability HAS NOTHING to do with that, LIFTING STRENGTH DOES.

You need to get that already.

Even if there's Gravity Manipulation that doesn't rely on Lifting Strength, that is not the case in Black Clover.
You have characters stronger and more durable than base Asta, who got squashed by gravity and would have been crushed to death if they were closer to the center of gravity, while base Asta could fight against it.


Gravity in BC cannot be stopped by having higher durability, you need higher lifting strength. That's my final stance on this

Yes it does, you don't know what gravity is nor how everyday people resist it, its not just because they have higher lifting strength but rather they also have high enough durability to resist the pressure created by it, you're confusing what "Pressure" is compared to something getting "Crushed".

Zagred's Vacuum Wall will apply a "Pressure" which will hold Cross down for a couple of seconds but it wouldn't "Crush" him (AKA kill him) as i already explained in this post and my previous one.

1st: Can't compare Zagred's GM to people like Dante's and Lucifero's and 2nd: That just proves that Asta has better resistances to Gravity Manipulation compared to others.

Tell that to both Asta and Yuno, they didn't resist the "Pressure" created by Zagred's Vacuum Wall but they were only scuffed up a little by it, which directly shows that Gravity Manipulation within Black Clover isn't treated like this thing which inherently negates conventional durability but rather treated as a form of Attack Potency for characters like Zagred and Dante.

 

[Deceived3596]

Is him saying vanish considered ee or is it just unlisted as an ability on his page? Cause this seems like ee of energy but not sure yet. I bring it up though cause Zagred should be able to erase some of cross's attacks as well.

"Vanish" is treated as Power-Nullification and it only works of Magical Attacks like Patry's Light Magic, it doesn't work on physical matter like Innocence nor the energy created from Innocence given Innocence's energy isn't comparable to anything within Black Clover.

So it wouldn't be equalized.

 

[Epsilon_R]

It somewhat does given what Cross's Win-Con's are and the source they come from (Judgement) and Cross's isn't getting "Crushed" as you say given his durability massively scaling above Zagred's AP, he would be "Pressed" down to the ground for a couple of seconds, sure but he isn't being "Crushed".

He would get pressed and that's about it, he isn't killing Cross with it.

AP doesn't help against that.

Proof? literally nothing implies this within the Manga, it might have been expanded upon in the Anime and if it was i'll be fine with conceding on that specific point.

It was expanded in the anime, where each word crushed Asta even more

Yeah? never denied that Cross would be pressed down by the pressure, i'm saying that he isn't getting killed by it given his massive durability scaling compared to Zagred's AP.

Durability doesn't help against gravity, at least not in Black Clover. You need Lifting Strength

The fact that the pressure only lasted for a couple seconds as shown in the Manga? like re-read the specific scene and it literally only lasted for a couple of seconds, its not something that's constant. Dude look up what Gravitational Pressure is and why humans are able to resist some of it from things like the earth, its not just because of lifting strength, stop making this argument.

What are you even talking about?

Zagred's Vacuum Wall will apply a "Pressure" which will hold Cross down for a couple of seconds but it wouldn't "Crush" him (AKA kill him) as i already explained in this post and my previous one.

Zagred's Vaccum Wall only acts as a pressure for Asta because he has enough Lifting Strength to not be crushed to death. Someone with far lower LS than Asta would simply get crushed.

1st: Can't compare Zagred's GM to people like Dante's and Lucifero's and 2nd: That just proves that Asta has better resistances to Gravity Manipulation compared to others.

Give a reason why we shouldn't. Especially when they are so similar.

And notice how you have just debunked yourself.

If higher Durability was needed to resist Gravity, then Asta and Nacht shouldn't have been able to resist Lucifero's Gravity since they are both far weaker than him, and Yami, who's stronger than 60% Dante, shouldn't have been unaffected by Dante's Gravity. And that is clearly not the case as Asta and Nacht could move under his gravity even though their durability was much lower, while Yami had to erase the pressure in his vicinity to move despite having that superior Durability you keep bringing up.

Your only answer to this is "Asta must have a better resistance to Gravity" with no basis whatsoever. Even if it was the case, Cross does not have any sort of Gravity resistance so he wouldn't be able to resist it.

Asta having better resistance to Gravity has nothing to do with Durability, Cross having a better Durability doesn't matter.

Tell that to both Asta and Yuno, they didn't resist the "Pressure" created by Zagred's Vacuum Wall but they were only scuffed up a little by it,

Because they have enough Lifting Strength to resist it, like I've been saying the whole time

which directly shows that Gravity Manipulation within Black Clover isn't treated like this thing which inherently negates conventional durability but rather treated as a form of Attack Potency for characters like Zagred and Dante.

Yami is stronger than Dante, Dante's Gravity still worked on him

Berserk Asta is weaker than Dante, But he still managed to stand and swing his sword at him despite being at the center of the gravity.

Nacht could move under Lucifero's Gravity, but his Durability is nowhere close to the latter.

Base Asta could resist it as well

The captains, who are stronger than Asta, needed temporary Invincibility to move under gravity. Without that they got pinned down.

So for the last time, it has nothing to do with Attack Potency

 

[speedster352]

AP doesn't help against that.


It was expanded in the anime, where each word crushed Asta even more

Durability doesn't help against gravity, at least not in Black Clover. You need Lifting Strength

What are you even talking about?

Zagred's Vaccum Wall only acts as a pressure for Asta because he has enough Lifting Strength to not be crushed to death. Someone with far lower LS than Asta would simply get crushed.

Give a reason why we shouldn't. Especially when they are so similar.

And notice how you have just debunked yourself.

If higher Durability was needed to resist Gravity, then Asta and Nacht shouldn't have been able to resist Lucifero's Gravity since they are both far weaker than him, and Yami, who's stronger than 60% Dante, shouldn't have been unaffected by Dante's Gravity. And that is clearly not the case as Asta and Nacht could move under his gravity even though their durability was much lower, while Yami had to erase the pressure in his vicinity to move despite having that superior Durability you keep bringing up.

Your only answer to this is "Asta must have a better resistance to Gravity" with no basis whatsoever. Even if it was the case, Cross does not have any sort of Gravity resistance so he wouldn't be able to resist it.

Asta having better resistance to Gravity has nothing to do with Durability, Cross having a better Durability doesn't matter.

Because they have enough Lifting Strength to resist it, like I've been saying the whole time

Yami is stronger than Dante, Dante's Gravity still worked on him

Berserk Asta is weaker than Dante, But he still managed to stand and swing his sword at him despite being at the center of the gravity.

Nacht could move under Lucifero's Gravity, but his Durability is nowhere close to the latter.

Base Asta could resist it as well

The captains, who are stronger than Asta, needed temporary Invincibility to move under gravity. Without that they got pinned down.

So for the last time, it has nothing to do with Attack Potency

I agree zagred can use spear when he is being crushed

 

[Arkenis]

I mentioned this before but I'll do it again.


Lenalee has already shown the ability to power null gm with her innocence, she does this at 86% synchronization

Now considering that a level 3 Akuma is using this and also that Lenalee who's synchronization is only 86%, Cross's ability to do the same would be better. If he can power null the ability the gravity wouldn't do much to him even if his powernull isn't on the level of Zagred but it should be as Cross is stronger.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

It somewhat does given what Cross's Win-Con's are and the source they come from (Judgement) and Cross's isn't getting "Crushed" as you say given his durability massively scaling above Zagred's AP, he would be "Pressed" down to the ground for a couple of seconds, sure but he isn't being "Crushed".

He would get pressed and that's about it, he isn't killing Cross with it.

Even if Cross is pressed down for a few seconds what's stopping Zagred from ending him with the spear or what is stopping cross from falling into those life-absorbing things? Not sure if this was mentioned already

Lenalee has already shown the ability to power null gm with her innocence, she does this at 86% synchronization

Her innocence nullifies the dark matter powering the added gravity, not the gravity itself.

 

[Arkenis]

Her innocence nullifies the dark matter powering the added gravity, not the gravity itself.

Which would nullify the magic powering the word magic aka mana or whatever energy source devils use, not to mention this power null would also be purification

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Which would nullify the magic powering the word magic aka mana or whatever energy source devils use, not to mention this power null would also be purification

Does innocence nullify dark matter via purification? I don’t think this will work on mana, a neutral source, if that is the case. It is the source of all magic regardless of the holiness of the mage or magical being

This however mayyyy be effective on ancient demons… may. Since they possess negative mana.

Edit: BTW Zagred would speak before Cross can even attempt nullify, the effects of gravity would affect cross as well.

I’ll go read the previous posts to see what has been said

 

[Arkenis]

Does innocence nullify dark matter via purification? I don’t think this will work on mana, a neutral source, if that is the case. It is the source of all magic regardless of the holiness of the mage or magical being

Well innocence can purify souls and the akumas virus so it would be able to purify arcane magic which is what word soul magic is. It would just power null and purify the magic of zagreds spells

 

[rawXDglomp]

Does innocence nullify dark matter via purification? I don’t think this will work on mana, a neutral source, if that is the case. It is the source of all magic regardless of the holiness of the mage or magical being

It do.
But I see absolutely no reason it nullifying its literal opposite in-verse would, through any amount of weird power equalizing, mean it purifies the magic the devils use. Dark Matter in D-gray man is the building blocks of the skeletons holding souls of the deceased, which evolves over time.
Its not particularly similar to the devils outside of both being fairly edgy.

 

[Arkenis]

It do.
But I see absolutely no reason it nullifying its literal opposite in-verse would, through any amount of weird power equalizing, mean it purifies the magic the devils use. Dark Matter in D-gray man is the building blocks of the skeletons holding souls of the deceased, which evolves over time.
Its not particularly similar to the devils outside of both being fairly edgy.

• Arcane Stage: Arcane Stage encompass mages who have deeply tapped into Forbidden Magic, and mages with the ability to interfere with the otherworld. For the former, characters that are able to borrow the power of what would qualify as a Devil in their respective verse (Unholy Manipulation) should be able to harm the heart of a Devil. As for the latter, not much is known as of now.
• Saint Stage: Saint Stage is a stage only Spirit users can achieve, they can destroy the heart of a Devil by cleaning/purifying evil. As such, characters with the ability Holy Manipulation or Purification should be able to bypass the Invulnerability of a Devil's heart.

Zagred is deeply tapped into forbidden magic aka unholy manipulation
Innocence uses purification which would be saint stage in bc. I'm saying Innocence > Forbidden Magic

 

[rawXDglomp]

Innocence is specifically the opposite of dark matter. Its not holy purification. Its dark matter purification. There is no reason to think innocence would be saint stage.

 

[Arkenis]

Innocence is specifically the opposite of dark matter. Its not holy purification. Its dark matter purification. There is no reason to think innocence would be saint stage.

• Arcane Stage: Arcane Stage encompass mages who have deeply tapped into Forbidden Magic, and mages with the ability to interfere with the otherworld. For the former, characters that are able to borrow the power of what would qualify as a Devil in their respective verse (Unholy Manipulation) should be able to harm the heart of a Devil. As for the latter, not much is known as of now.
• Saint Stage: Saint Stage is a stage only Spirit users can achieve, they can destroy the heart of a Devil by cleaning/purifying evil. As such, characters with the ability Holy Manipulation or Purification should be able to bypass the Invulnerability of a Devil's heart

This is literally on Zagred's page. Innocence has purification so it would work on his magic power. No one is arguing its saint stage, Im arguing its purification is something that can affect Zagred's heart and magic as that's something required to do so.

 

[rawXDglomp]

May need to make a CRT on that then. Because 'purification' of one thing is not of all things. He specifically only purifies akuma, because they are made of dark matter, which innocence is opposite to.