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Shūkurō Tsukishima vs Yami Sukehiro

Forgot to add LOK's vote (shit was mad hidden ngl)

It's actually 11-8 Tsukishima.

We're still in grace tho.
 
FantaRin_The_First said:
... Am kinda on the fence now, tbh. Tsukishima needing one hit to find out everything about Yami and/or mindfuck him seems like a good win-con. Yami's stuff also seems like a good win-con to me as well. So I kinda don't know who to vote for now, and thus, I retract my vote for Yami, for now.
Click to expand...
I mean think of it this way, Tsukishima has a way to actually get a single hit on Yami via BL and can do this multiple times if he needs, this is also his go to move and main move so he will try on first chance. There's also the fact that he could use bote on the surroundings to make it easy to get hits on Yami by setting traps to catch him off guard or simply help at messing up his focus with Ki sensing. After a single hit he can make it so Yami believes this Tsuki to be his savior, the man who rescued him, saved his life countless times and would never allow Yami to believe he'd ever betray him then simply and literally stab him in the back.

Yami's main argument here is that he'll eventually decide to use death thrust which will be too late, but it'll also be hard to hit Tsuki with it due to BL and due to Tsuki messing with the surroundings. It's extremely harder for Yami to obtain the win here with an attack that requires some charge up and also needs him to be good at aiming and sensing which Tsuki negs or at least will make it harder for Yami to do.

Edit: Tsuki could also effect Yami's sword with bote making it so attacks from it or guarding with it just won't work like he did to senbon. Again all this very easy for Tsuki and just needs one hit
 
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Arkenis said:
I mean think of it this way, Tsukishima has a way to actually get a single hit on Yami via BL and can do this multiple times if he needs, this is also his go to move and main move so he will try on first chance. There's also the fact that he could use bote on the surroundings to make it easy to get hits on Yami by setting traps to catch him off guard or simply help at messing up his focus with Ki sensing. After a single hit he can make it so Yami believes this Tsuki to be his savior, the man who rescued him, saved his life countless times and would never allow Yami to believe he'd ever betray him then simply and literally stab him in the back.

Yami's main argument here is that he'll eventually decide to use death thrust which will be too late, but it'll also be hard to hit Tsuki with it due to BL and due to Tsuki messing with the surroundings. It's extremely harder for Yami to obtain the win here with an attack that requires some charge up and also needs him to be good at aiming and sensing which Tsuki negs or at least will make it harder for Yami to do.
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I mean, Yami's precog might help against the first attack then he will definitely get hit, and he isn't using death thrust in the first second
Deceived said:
Forgot to add LOK's vote (shit was mad hidden ngl)
Click to expand...
Deceived said:
I can't count.
Click to expand...
 
Deceived said:
Ki sensing doesn't have "precognition" in the sense of Yami being able to see into the future of things, what his precog allows him to do is predict the future movements of his opponents through sensing their Ki.

This is directly explained to use in the manga within Chapter 48, Page 4.

0048-004.png


"I read that Ki, Predicted his next move, then made my own"

What me and the other bleach debaters are trying to explain to you is that Yami's Ki sensing isn't so great that he can see into the exact future, understanding everything that'll happen in that future and create counter measures based of that exact future, he'll only be able to try and predict Tsukishima's future movements which aren't something that's set in stone and said future movements would **** over Yami's ability to sense Tsukishima.

The fact that Yami's "precognition" relies on his Ki sensing which would inherently be messed with by Tsukishima's current and future movements with Bringer Light would mean Yami's predictions of his future movements wouldn't be 100% true, which could cause Yami to get cut by an unpredictable attack from Tsukishima.

Also no one is acting like it makes Bringer Light completely nullifies sensing abilities, don't strawman the positions/arguments the Bleach debaters have been using in this debate.

What we've been saying is since Yami's precog relies on his Ki sensing, which is something that Bringer Light can greatly nullify, Tsukishima's movements wouldn't be easily sensible by Yami via his Ki sensing, which in turn would allow Tsukishima to cut Yami and activate the effects of BOTE before Yami activates Condensed Mana Zone and Iai Slash or Death Thrust.

That's it.
Click to expand...


Okay, nobody said Yami can see the future, we just said Yami can tell what the person wants to do before they do it. That is what Yami means by "next move". Also supported by the LN (you know where I got this from).


Ki sensing is less effective only when BL is active (its effect could be circumvented by enhancing it). However, since Ki (thought-based) can be activated faster than Bringer light (movement-based) Yami would have already known how fast Tsukki will move and what he wants to do with the sword by sensing his ki. Given the range advantage under SBA He will start with Condensed Mana zone so he can avoid bringer light attacks. The reason why he starts with Condensed mana zone first is that he already knows how fast Tsukki is going to go. When Yami knew how fast Dante was going he immediately condensed his mana zone to evade all his attacks. Tsukki isn't going to be in BL forever, so as soon as he stops moving. Yami senses his Ki again without difficulty (this time his ki is enhanced with Mana Zone). That is how this fight will go and he only needs Ki sensing at the start of the fight.

Eventually, Yami uses the following win con, now that he is as fast or faster than BL depending on how condensed it is.

  • With the superior Lifting Strength, Yami is capable of restraining Tsukki indefinitely with Dark Restraining Magic: Dark Binding
  • While his mana zone is condensed, he will resort to Iai Slash / Death Thrust to win due to their immense power. With Death Thrust Yami can blow the torso of those comparable to him. The further the range the larger the attack as it was still able to blow away Dante's torso when he grew several meters in size.




Concerning the FTE stuff on discord. In black clover FTE speeds are superior to a 2x speed boost. Otherwise most of our speed scaling with Zora will be non existent. and ill see if magic and full bringer can be equalized.
 
Me when
Arnoldstone18 said:
  • With the superior Lifting Strength, Yami is capable of restraining Tsukki indefinitely with Dark Restraining Magic: Dark Binding
Click to expand...
right cause those scale where in speed? And again bote would just neg this, he's cut Senbon and negged it to where it doesn't work on him.
 
Arkenis said:
right cause those scale where in speed? And again bote would just neg this, he's cut Senbon and negged it to where it doesn't work on him.
Click to expand...

Spell scales to his speed

the spell restricts movements too so he isn’t cutting it.
 
@Arnoldstone18 I'll address your arguments tomorrow.

But i will say that your entire argument requires Yami to continuously dodge Tsukishima's attacks which isn't happening.

Tsukishima can attack mid-Bringer Light, which means Yami wouldn't really sense that specific attack coming for him, even with the intention sensing aspect of Ki sensing since Bringer Light can bypass Reiraku which can sense Reiatsu, something that contains the inherent intentions and emotions of someone as shown by the fact characters can project bloodlust through it like Kensei.

He also isn't going to start off with Condense Mana Zone + Iai Slash or Death Thrust combo even under SBA, he's fought against people who were FASTER then him with deadlier hax's compared to Tsukishima and didn't instantly start off with this combo, he only uses this during the middle of fights after testing his opponent out regularly first.

You're drastically wanking off Yami's ability with Ki sensing and his wantingness to use this specific combo to the point it's getting tiring to debate against you, you're acting like Ki sensing allows Yami to understand every aspect about Tsukishima, it doesn't.

Tsukishima's win-con would happen more often then not compared to Yami's win-con since his is actually in-character and only requires Tsukishima to cut him once while Yami needs to actively not only condense his Mana Zone around him but also use either Death Thrust or Iai Slash, he would also have to hit Tsukishima with these attacks which is going to be a challenge in itself since Tsukishima can place himself into the past of the ground to create shields to slow down, obscure the vision of or block Yami's attacks.

This isn't a stomp for Tsukishima by no means, its just Tsukishima gets his win-con off more compared to Yami as i explained above.

For now i'll rest my case with this post and will respond tomorrow with a larger, more in-depth one.
 
Deceived said:
He also isn't going to start off with Condense Mana Zone + Iai Slash or Death Thrust combo even under SBA, he's fought against people who were FASTER then him with deadlier hax's compared to Tsukishima and didn't instantly start off with this combo, he only uses this during the middle of fights after testing his opponent out regularly first.

You're drastically wanking off Yami's ability with Ki sensing and his wantingness to use this specific combo to the point it's getting tiring to debate against you, you're acting like Ki sensing allows Yami to understand every aspect about Tsukishima, it doesn't.
Click to expand...

You clearly didn’t read most of what I typed did you.
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
You clearly didn’t read most of what I typed did you.
Click to expand...
I did.

Given the range advantage under SBA He will start with Condensed Mana zone so he can avoid bringer light attacks. The reason why he starts with Condensed mana zone first is that he already knows how fast Tsukki is going to go. When Yami knew how fast Dante was going he immediately condensed his mana zone to evade all his attacks
Click to expand...

Also thanks for indirectly conceding that Yami's Ki sensing isn't in-fact instant since if it was he would've instantly used Condense Mana Zone + Iai Slash or Death Thrust combo on Dante. (Which is something he didn't)

But rather it's something that has to be gradually sensed and predicted before Yami pulls up with this combo.

This would also be the same with Tsukishima, especially with Bringer Light ******* with his ability so sense Tsukishima's Ki.

So in your failed attempt to pull a Gotcha on me, you unironically crippled your own argument in the process, good job.
 
Deceived said:
I did.



Also thanks for indirectly conceding that Yami's Ki sensing isn't in-fact instant since if it was he would've instantly used Condense Mana Zone + Iai Slash or Death Thrust combo on Dante. (Which is something he didn't)

But rather it's something that has to be gradually sensed and predicted before Yami pulls up with this combo.

This would also be the same with Tsukishima, especially with Bringer Light ******* with his ability so sense Tsukishima's Ki.

So in your failed attempt to pull a Gotcha on me, you unironically crippled your own argument in the process, good job.
Click to expand...

How did you fail to understand what I typed after reading it again.

Iai Slash and Death Thrust are not starting moves.

wait till tomorrow so you can actually respond to my points one by one and No I am not trying to pull a damn gotcha on you.

I’ll respond to all these, later, quite busy atm.
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
How did you fail to understand what I typed after reading it again.

Iai Slash and Death Thrust are not starting moves.
Click to expand...
Concession Accepted.

Now all you need to do is concede that Yami just using Condense Mana Zone isn't something he instantly uses in a fight.

After that we'll be gucci.
 
Deceived said:
Concession Accepted.

Now all you need to do is concede that Yami just using Condense Mana Zone isn't something he instantly uses in a fight.

After that we'll be gucci.
Click to expand...

nah bud. you just look for what you want to read and spam “concession”


Deceived said:
But i will say that your entire argument requires Yami to continuously dodge Tsukishima's attacks which isn't happening.
Click to expand...

No. my argument requires Yami to identify how dangerous he is and work to neutralize him while staying away.


Deceived said:
Tsukishima can attack mid-Bringer Light, which means Yami wouldn't really sense that specific attack coming for him, even with the intention sensing aspect of Ki sensing since Bringer Light can bypass Reiraku which can sense Reiatsu, something that contains the inherent intentions and emotions of someone as shown by the fact characters can project bloodlust through it like Kensei.
Click to expand...

Yami already knows his sword is dangerous by reading his Ki at the start of the match then he keeps up by condensing his mana zone. So what specific attack can’t be dodged with his eyes?

I already said Ki is less effective against bringer light so you literally wasted your time explaining why it’s less effective. And don’t spam “concession” again because Yami already knows before Bringer Light is used.


Deceived said:
He also isn't going to start off with Condense Mana Zone + Iai Slash or Death Thrust combo even under SBA, he's fought against people who were FASTER then him with deadlier hax's compared to Tsukishima and didn't instantly start off with this combo, he only uses this during the middle of fights after testing his opponent out regularly first.
Click to expand...

I never said he is starting off with Iai or death thrust at the start of the match. I said he is starting off with sensing his Ki and then condenses mana zone because Yami would’ve already predicted the speed he would move at. Similar to how he predicted Dante’s speed was increasing and immediately condensed it to either attack (at 60%) or evade (at 80%).

Ki sensing is continuous because it’s ingrained in his swordsmanship. It’s basically always on working to predict his opponent. While he starts with Condensed Manazone which is thought based in response to the future he anticipates.

Did you forget Yami in this key wants to test out his new moves? You can’t use his Lucifero Key in this match to claim it’s not a starting move. Even though I said it’s an early move not a starting one. And No Yami doesn’t test his opponents out, where did you get that idea from.
Deceived said:
You're drastically wanking off Yami's ability with Ki sensing and his wantingness to use this specific combo to the point it's getting tiring to debate against you, you're acting like Ki sensing allows Yami to understand every aspect about Tsukishima, it doesn't
Click to expand...

Well if what you said earlier is true then I’d agree. But no, I am not wanking his precognitive ability. Like you said he fights those faster than him so he used it against those faster than him so he definitely predicts the speed. He predicts what the opponent wants to do and he evades certain death e.g. Dante’s Black Hole. And I am not wanking Yami’s “wantingness” as in his KEY he literally walks into the fight with Mana Zone active, he proceeds to use mana zone black moon, proceeds to condense Manazone, proceeds to use it throughout the fight. So yes. Yami’s “wantingness” is completely justified in this key and there is no debate about it.

Yami’s precog won’t let him understand every aspect, but it will let him know that the sword is a no go area. The only thing on Tsukki’s mind is to want to at least touch Yami with his sword. That’s all Yami needs to know to keep away.
Deceived said:
Tsukishima's win-con would happen more often then not compared to Yami's win-con since his is actually in-character and only requires Tsukishima to cut him once while Yami needs to actively not only condense his Mana Zone around him but also use either Death Thrust or Iai Slash, he would also have to hit Tsukishima with these attacks which is going to be a challenge in itself since Tsukishima can place himself into the past of the ground to create shields to slow down, obscure the vision of or block Yami's attacks.
Click to expand...

Like I said before, the extra paneling to explain how condensing and his attack works is irrelevant because Yami uses the same move with 0 charge time and blitzes Dante like 3 more times since the first time.

Yami prefers to fight in the air and can use Ki to know where the traps on the ground are. The traps point is moot because of that and Tsukki would most likely move to the air if he wants to cut him so bad

Since Yami has predicted the speed of his opponent, the criteria to use his wincons early has been satisfied. Edit: Because the only reason he even condenses his mana zone and used his wincon in the first place was because Dante was getting faster.

like I said this is not a gotcha response.

Edit: correction Yami’s key in this match is after the Lucifero fight. And he didn’t use death thrust because Deep Black Blade in Double Mana Zone Full Power was his strongest attack that could cut him. That’s why he said he was harder to cut and he got taken out of commission. It still doesn’t change the fact that Death thrust is his most used attacks in his own active Mana Zone. As we all can see Nacht isn’t here to give Yami that sort of boost and Yami already knows CQC is out of it, so Death Thrust or dimension slash are the two ranged attacks he can use.
 
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