DivineAura44
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Is the point of whether or not Cell had charged ki even relevant?
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Cell Games Saga revisions (Dragon Ball Z)
- Thread starter Damage3245
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i don't see that in the profile tho
Ghengiroo115
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The thing though is that it uses other people’s energy to power it. If Buu Goku’s Spirit Bomb was powered with the same amount of energy as Namek Goku’s Spirit Bomb then I believe the additive boost would be the same. Maybe you could argue that since the Spirit Bomb went from 3x to 20-40x to around 400x that the difference in power between base Goku and the Spirit Bomb always grows bigger, however idk for sure if that logic holds up.
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since the "Cell doesn't scale to Solar Kamehameha" point was already accepted by the earlier thread.......isn't talking against it here instead of making a new thread to change it kind of......pointless? it was already accepted, this thread as far as i can see is only applying it to the scaling chain
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- #45
Yeah, I don't think anyone is arguing about Cell scaling directly to the Kamehameha except for Luffy.
It's just about what he would actually scale now or if he downscales somehow.
Guacamolefletcher
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Have you ever heard of amped attacks?
I guess base Goku scales to Super Saiyan 3 Goku’s kamehameha because it was done with his chi
Ghengiroo115
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It’s in the AP blog and Gohan’s profile. Weird how it’s not mentioned on Raditz’s profile though, hell Gohan in general isn’t mentioned in Raditz’s justifications at all for some reason.
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"Examples showing that KHH didn't massively upscale the stat of the user to over 47x are irrelevant" is basically what you just typed. Who said anything about treating them as equal boosts? You're trying to downscale from 47x above baseline to below baseline with w technique that in all its uses across multiple arcs has never even gained past 3x?
Nowhere is it stated there that Goku's Kamehameha was weaker than normal,
Nowhere is is stated that cell's Kamehameha was relatively stronger than an average one, this is entirely your theory. Goku goes through the ka/me/ha/me/ha motions, him being able to do it quickly is a testament to his skill, not some anchor
Ofcourse they had greater energy, they are way stronger stronger than Goku, and have more energy to channel? Even assuming your theory holds, there is ZERO proof his Kamehameha made a gap of over 47 times baseline when this has never been shown in any iteration of the technique. A KHH uses the owners ki, it doesn't suddenly give them more ki, regardless of how high they charge, there is a limit to how strong it is,
Because....rather than blocking/guarding he has to eat the attacks? Which....would do more damage if he and his opponent are on the same tier? Like...any fight?
Yea, those sent him flying, as opposed to when he guarded against them as my scan showed? You get the difference now?
BLOCKING, he BLOCKED it and it STILL hurt him
He ATE a Kamehameha without even having to guard, and OFCOURSE it's much stronger, we saw what it did to Frieza at equal power, wr saw how it allowed Goku a 2.2X amp on Raditz, but somehow you're claiming that all of a sudden it takes a user rom 47x above baseline to below baseline? That's absurd to say the least
How about an actual shred of evidence for a such a massive gap? Seeing as the highest gap a KHH has overcome canonically is 2.2x?
Yes, and we have an idea of how much higher KHH scales, it's not 47x, saying "special attacks scale far higher than the user" doesn't...mean anything by itself
And it doesn't, why? Because cell is dozens of times above baseline, there is no SHRED of proof to say he goes below baseline
Worse case scenario? Make ssj2 and SPC baseline, they are far too above baseline with the KHH to claim they fi below, with a technique that certainly didn't amplify their attack power by that much
But trying to get them below baseline is ridiculous, and completely unfounded
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This is not happening
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as a charged attack, the ammount of times it is higher than the normal AP depends on how much time and energy is put in said charge, it isn't static for anyone to say it is always 47x
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Funny, isn't it?
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- #52
If you're just going to make comments like this then can you kindly get out of my thread? Thanks.
Eden_Warlock99
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Wouldn't be the only case in the verse anyhow, MAX Roshi is 8-C while his Kamehameha is 5-C
Guacamolefletcher
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Ok so SSJ4 Goku can punch as hard as his 10x kamehameha
No, that doesn't make sense. Kamehameha's don't amp you that much, but the difference here is believable
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@Jaakor48 Not going to go back-and-forth with you on every single line, but I don't need to prove that Super Perfect Cell is below baseline Solar System level. All I know is that scaling from other characters ends up putting him there, and he had a calc for a specific attack in the tier above.
I'm not arguing for trying to derive a specific multiplier from that.
I'm not arguing for trying to derive a specific multiplier from that.
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You don't rule me, just remembering that, I'm here to argue how absurd this is.
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@LuffyRuffy46307 I can absolutely delete comments that are derailing the thread, so remember that.
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Please don't tag me with this ridiculousness
I literally listed all the major uses of the technique in Canon, not one even for to 3x, if "it isn't static for anyone to say it is always 47x" then who exactlly are you to decide that it is 47x and not follow the gaps we see in canon? Especially since it's almost literally the most abused technique in the franchise?
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Huh, but it comes from the characters' own energy, there's no way to disagree that it's literally the character's energy being carried into the character.
Guacamolefletcher
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These multipliers don't follow our standards
OK? So we give them the quantification of:
"X tier normally, higher with amped attack" Learn our standards please, LuffyRuffy
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Luffy, keep things civil, regardless of your opinions on the revision.
Eden_Warlock99
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This is really the only way I can see Cell and Gohan get to 4-B
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It should be significantly less than 47x. Otherwise why would Goku bother with Kaioken x20 or Spirit Bomb if he can make a Kamehameha that is more powerful than 100% Frieza? Also, a comparable technique, Piccolo's SBC is just around 3x and that's a way longer charge time than Cell's Kamehameha.
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Normally, all attacks are amplified by the user's own ki, so it is due to the ki.
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There's no specific consistency for this.
Vegeta can't even scratch Perfect Cell with his attacks - but a charged Final Flash could blast off half his body and could have killed him outright. That's way, way more than a 2x or 3x level of effectiveness.
Guacamolefletcher
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No? There's amped attacks where more chi is outputted than normal.
Say Goku has 1 million "Chi units" normally. His normal punches have 1 chi worth of energy. His amped attacks use 30 chi's worthy of energy. This is how amped attacks work, LuffyRuffy, please learn our standards
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I think you should know more about Dragon Ball, since you seem to have never seen the work, if such a character has the ability to carry such an attack and amplify it is because of the user's own ki, mentioned many times in the work itself.
And in addition, Cell makes it clear that this is happening through his ki and does not give away his ability, there is no way to deny something so simple.
Eden_Warlock99
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Krillin also goes up a Tier with his Destructo Disc
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- #69
@LuffyRuffy46307 This isn't the thread to try and refute basic Ki mechanics that are already accepted on the wiki. Take it to another thread or I'll have to start deleting posts that are derailing.
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This KT ass example
Thread looks fine. Scale em above the Frieza calc. Arbitrary backscaling makes no sense
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Well, we know SSJ2 Gohan physical strength~Vegeta's Final Flash, since they both destroyed a Perfect Cell tier character. Yes, Vegeta's would have eraser him, like his arm, while Gohan's only destroyed them to pieces. So downscale it from Super Vegeta Final Flash. Maybe the gap between these two. Help use gauge between Cell and his Ki attack.
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Hmm I see your point.
I'm still in favor of just downscaling but I'll let the other staff decide this.
Do we have any attacks that can be for sure scaled above Cell's Kamehameha? Perhaps Vegeta's Final Explosion? Or the Spirit Bomb that killed Buu?
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Check the Daizenshuu
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- #75
Yeah. Gohan's Kamehameha which was described as the most powerful Kamehameha ever IIRC.
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....spicy aren't we?
if the gap varies with the ammount of and time of a charge.....then you can grap as much examples as you can, it varying in the first place will not make any pattern with it be a thing, Cell could just have been a case of "he charged more"
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Ignore my response. I thought the Cell.jr were as powerful as Perfect Cell, but I misrembered it. They are as powerful as Super Vegeta.
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Huh, that was kinda obvious.
Anyways, should other characters also get this 4-B rating with "strongest attacks?" Anyone as powerful as SSJ2 Gohan should be able to charge an attack powerful enough to get this 4-B rating.
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In other words, you can't prove it, basically you just...want him to below baseline over nothing? Because I can GUARANTEE you don't have a shred of proof to show that a KHH would ever boost him that high
A Kamehameha attack, which somehow, in this one instance, boosts him by 47x, as against every other use of this same technique, sure.
But your arguing to downscale by this same multiplier, which makes no sense
But sure, there's no point going back and forth
I don't follow
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Not every character because we can't get a specific multiplier from this, but we'll look at other characters who scale to these two for sure.
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