Cell Games Saga revisions (Dragon Ball Z)

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

I'm looking at the comments which have been made and, unless I'm wrong here, I don't think Damage is trying to say that these amped attacks don't come from the user's own Ki or anything like that. He's simply stating that to reach that power in the first place, they first have to charge up their energy to that point but can't exert that level of power through normal attacks and punches. Examples being Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon or Goku's Instant Kamehameha or Vegeta's Final Flash where, though it is indeed from their energy, they have to build it up and aren't using that energy in normal attacks or blasts.

That's all I have to say on the matter, because I think Damage's argument is being misinterpreted a bit when it's not what he's trying to say.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Anyways, should other characters also get this 4-B rating with "strongest attacks?"

If it's any consolation, "Gotenks [attacked] Buu with a level of techniques never seen before."
Is that potentially enough for SSJ Gotenks > Father-Son Kamehameha?

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Nah I dont fully agree with this. mainly because this was while cell was still charging the kamehameha, and his statement doesnt in anyway imply that that's his limit, which we already know since he's 47X above baseline. So at worst him and SSJ2 gohan should still scale to 4-B baseline physically and with even uncharged attacks.

 

[Veronica]

SSJ2 Vegeta's Final explosion/Galic Gun, SSJ2/3 Goku max Ki attack and everyone that scales to SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta should have solar-system level AP

 

[Damage3245]

Nah I dont fully agree with this. mainly because this was while cell was still charging the kamehameha, and his statement doesnt in anyway imply that that's his limit, which we already know since he's 47X above baseline. So at worst him and SSJ2 gohan should still scale to 4-B baseline physically and with even uncharged attacks.

Nobody was arguing that was his limit anyway.

Still wouldn't mean his normal attacks scale though.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Nobody was arguing that was his limit anyway.

Still wouldn't mean his normal attacks scale though.

why not? Im pretty sure we list Ki as a UES and there's absolutely no reason to assume that an attack that isnt even fully charged yet amps someone by >47X that was never implied much less stated. Theres like maybe one such instance in the entire verse and thats an exception not the rule

 

[Ghengiroo115]

SSJ2 Vegeta's Final explosion/Galic Gun, SSJ2/3 Goku max Ki attack and everyone that scales to SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta should have solar-system level AP

Oh yeah, the way the Final Explosion works is that Vegeta lets out all of his energy until he’s completely out, right? I think given he uses it as a last resort in Super as well it would make sense for the Final Explosion to be stronger than any other attack he or potentially any other character can use. It might break my 4x suggestion though since it arguably should also be stronger than the 100x boost of the Destructo-Disc, however I’m not sure if that makes it survivable for Buu. It might though since Buu doesn’t take the full brunt of energy due to the explosion being omnidirectional and all.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

why not? Im pretty sure we list Ki as a UES and there's absolutely no reason to assume that an attack that isnt even fully charged yet amps someone by >47X that was never implied much less stated. Theres like maybe one such instance in the entire verse and thats an exception not the rule

Then make another thread debunking the original.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Then make another thread debunking the original.

no if its already accepted then that would be a waste of my time. I'm just expressing disagreement with the premise of the thread

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Actually I had a question in regards to scaling, and I sort of asked this earlier in the thread but I kind of wanted to build up from it: Even if Cell and Gohan no longer scale physically to 4-B, couldn't an argument be made that Ssj2 Goku and Vegeta and those equal or above them to physically 4-B? Goku and Vegeta are both individually stronger then Gohan was against Cell, which makes them stronger then Cell as well, so my thought was that Goku and Vegeta should scale above the output Gohan and Cell put into their attacks at the end of the Cell Saga.

If this doesn't work then I won't try arguing for it, I was just curious to know if there could be some basis to it

 

[Veronica]

Oh yeah, the way the Final Explosion works is that Vegeta lets out all of his energy until he’s completely out, right? I think given he uses it as a last resort in Super as well it would make sense for the Final Explosion to be stronger than any other attack he or potentially any other character can use. It might break my 4x suggestion though since it arguably should also be stronger than the 100x boost of the Destructo-Disc, however I’m not sure if that makes it survivable for Buu. It might though since Buu doesn’t take the full brunt of energy due to the explosion being omnidirectional and all.

SSJ3 Goku did physically deflect Pure Buu, Kamehameha. Although Buu seems far from full power.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

If it's any consolation, "Gotenks [attacked] Buu with a level of techniques never seen before."
Is that potentially enough for SSJ Gotenks > Father-Son Kamehameha?

so about this

 

[Damage3245]

so about this

Can't say for sure but it seems like something to take into account, thanks.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

lol the fact that SSJ gotenks being above father-son kamehameha is potentially under question is enough to tell me how nonsensical this change is

 

[KingTempest]

If it's any consolation, "Gotenks [attacked] Buu with a level of techniques never seen before."
Is that potentially enough for SSJ Gotenks > Father-Son Kamehameha?

Bro he turned him to a volleyball, wrapped a donut around him, and made exploding ghosts with his face.

This doesn't make sense to be talking about power

 

[Veronica]

lol the fact that SSJ gotenks being above father-son kamehameha is potentially under question is enough to tell me how nonsensical this change is

The question is can SSJ Gotenks physical overpower Father Son Kamehameha?

 

[Ryzen7900X]

The question is can SSJ Gotenks physical overpower Father Son Kamehameha?

anyone with even a passing understanding of dragon ball would know the answer is yes. These threads are an unnecessarily pedantic attempt to fish for any and all downgrades possible lol

 

[KingTempest]

These threads are an unnecessarily pedantic attempt to fish for any and all downgrades possible lol

Imma put this as a formal warning.

If yall want to keep acting like this is a witch hunt then I can start throwing out thread bans. If you can argue, do it. If you can't, stop whining and get out

 

[Veronica]

anyone with even a passing understanding of dragon ball would know the answer is yes. These threads are an unnecessarily pedantic attempt to fish for any and all downgrades possible lol

The thing is the power gap between Cell and Buu Saga isn't that massive. Goku and Vegeta only surpassed Gohan as a SSJ2. So at best even if they were as powerful as him as SSJ, which is unlikely. They would be only 2x Gohan's power and 8x as a SSJ3 and SSJ Gotenks is around SSJ3 level and SPC Ki attack is above x3 his own. So

 

[Robo432343]

anyone with even a passing understanding of dragon ball would know the answer is yes.

the answer is no for me and i watched dragon ball...not a good argument

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Imma put this as a formal warning.

If yall want to keep acting like this is a witch hunt then I can start throwing out thread bans. If you can argue, do it. If you can't, stop whining and get out

is there a rule against stating an observation? If not then I dont see what I did wrong other than presumably offending damage. And please dont act like its out of nowhere this is a repeated pattern with him for multiple verses and multiple people including Topaz have called it out and were right. We have every right to complain about someone's modus operandi

 

[Nullflowerblush]

is there a rule against stating an observation?

You're just whining.
It's annoying and disruptive.

made exploding ghosts with his face.

This doesn't make sense to be talking about power

Aren't they super-powerful ghosts?

 

[Damage3245]

@Ryzen7900X If verses stopped being grossly overrated then maybe I wouldn't have a "pattern" of proposing downgrades for them, go figure.

Maybe I'd actually end up more frequently posting upgrades if other people hadn't already tried proposing every upgrade imaginable.

We had someone trying to make the circumference of the Dragon Ball Earth around 40 million kilometers just recently.... No wonder I have to be around to post downgrades, and by the way this topic wasn't even started by me, it was started by Null who posted the previous thread; I just posted this thread to follow up on it.

 

[KingTempest]

These aren't just observations, you guys (you specifically) are making accusations of intent.

"These threads are an unnecessarily pedantic attempt to fish for any and all downgrades possible lol"

And regardless of if right or not, does it push forward the thread at all? No.

So stop complaining, continue to debate against it, and get over it.

Yall are complaining about a thread that's sole purpose is just saying "this thread was already accepted, let's apply it"

 

[KingTempest]

You're just whining.
It's annoying and disruptive.

Aren't they super-powerful ghosts?

No they are but I don't think "level of attack" is referencing "level of power" but "level of uniqueness and complexity"

 

[Ryzen7900X]

These aren't just observations, you guys (you specifically) are making accusations of intent.

and that stems from an observation I made. and its a complaint yes

"These threads are an unnecessarily pedantic attempt to fish for any and all downgrades possible lol"

And regardless of if right or not, does it push forward the thread at all? No.

okay fair

So stop complaining, continue to debate against it, and get over it.

Yall are complaining about a thread that's sole purpose is just saying "this thread was already accepted, let's apply it"

prolly cuz I hadnt even joined when that thread was made lol

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

I'm looking at the comments which have been made and, unless I'm wrong here, I don't think Damage is trying to say that these amped attacks don't come from the user's own Ki or anything like that. He's simply stating that to reach that power in the first place, they first have to charge up their energy to that point but can't exert that level of power through normal attacks and punches. Examples being Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon or Goku's Instant Kamehameha or Vegeta's Final Flash where, though it is indeed from their energy, they have to build it up and aren't using that energy in normal attacks or blasts.

That's all I have to say on the matter, because I think Damage's argument is being misinterpreted a bit when it's not what he's trying to say.

That's not the issue, it's that he is implying that cell's Kamehameha takes him from below baseline to 47x above baseline based on nothing, KHH doesn't give that kind of boost, there are very few techniques in dragon ball that give a magnanimous boost like that.

No one is saying KHH doesn't scale above normal attacks

But over 47x?
But it seems to already have been approved anyway.....so, no need

 

[Ryzen7900X]

You're just whining.
It's annoying and disruptive.

its called expressing disapproval with something get it right

 

[Nullflowerblush]

No they are but I don't think "level of attack" is referencing "level of power" but "level of uniqueness and complexity"

damn
i tried...

 

[Damage3245]

No one is saying KHH doesn't scale above normal attacks

But over 47x?

This just seems like an argument from incredulity to be honesty.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

@Ryzen7900X If verses stopped being grossly overrated then maybe I wouldn't have a "pattern" of proposing downgrades for them, go figure.

not a reason to propose downgrades. you're essentially admitting that you're doing this to "balance out" what you think is "gross overrating" which is precisely what I was saying lol

Maybe I'd actually end up more frequently posting upgrades if other people hadn't already tried proposing every upgrade imaginable.

not really relevant. Im not complaining about you not proposing upgrades its fine if you dont

We had someone trying to make the circumference of the Dragon Ball Earth around 40 million kilometers just recently.... No wonder I have to be around to post downgrades, and by the way this topic wasn't even started by me, it was started by Null who posted the previous thread; I just posted this thread to follow up on it.

And pretty much everyone with a functional brain disagreed with that thread. I dont think anyone serious believes that nonsense. regardless thats still not a good reason to propose downgrades

 

[Robo432343]

its called expressing disapproval with something get it right

you expressed your disapproval by whining tho

 

[Ryzen7900X]

you expressed disapproval by whining tho

lol so you're allowed to call my disapproval "whining" but the moment I call such attempts a desperate attempt to fish downgrades Im a bad guy? lmao

 

[Damage3245]

@Ryzen7900X Alright, you've expressed yourself, now you can stop posting about it in this particular thread.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

This just seems like an argument from incredulity to be honesty.

Really?

Not like I gave every other instance of the KHH not giving anywhere near that boost advantage? As opposed to you saying "people have attacks that upscale so automatically he should go down a tier"?

But sure... incredulity


Look, there is no need going further on about it anyway, I am assuming KT already gave his approval as well, so, no need

 

[Omegabronic]

not a reason to propose downgrades. you're essentially admitting that you're doing this to "balance out" what you think is "gross overrating" which is precisely what I was saying lol

yeah, if someone finds something about a verse wrong, they have the right to post a thread to try and correct it......this is how this site works

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

lol so you're allowed to call my disapproval "whining" but the moment I call such attempts a desperate attempt to fish downgrades Im a bad guy? lmao

I mean no diss to you, but you're coming in into the thread and accusing Damage of fishing for every possible DB downgrade and claiming he does this for other verses does make you come off as being antagonistic. You can disagree with Damage and the thread all you want, but you don't have to slander him and treat this as if Damage is purposefully trying to downgrade DB as opposed to seeing faults and wanting to correct them accordingly.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

yeah, if someone finds something about a verse wrong, they have the right to post a thread to try and correct it......this is how this site works

sure you're allowed to downgrade that specific thing which is apparently a "gross overrating" (and he probably didnt mean 4-B cell when he was talking about grossly overrated) not something else entirely which is merely a game of semantics and a competition of who can be more pedantic while throwing out commonly accepted mechanics for the verse.

Regardless Im disengaging from this thread.

 

[Nierre]

per usual damage cooking with these Dragon Ball threads. agree with the thread fra. disagree with downscaling fra

 

[Damage3245]

per usual damage cooking with these Dragon Ball threads. agree with the thread fra. disagree with downscaling fra

All credit to Nullflowerblush tbh. I'm just making this to implement the earlier changes from his thread, but thanks.