Cell is getting nerfed. (Dragon Ball)

[Nullflowerblush]

Can Revived Cell destroy the solar system? Yes, this is unchanging.
Does this scale to its normal stats? Unfortunately, not.

For the umpteenth time in the wake of the 5-C Tri-Beam series of threads, concentrating Ki into a single point is explicitly shown to exponentially increase one's strength beyond their normal limits, and the Kamehameha is the greatest demonstration of this principle. And, with the Solar Kamehameha being referred to as Cell's "final Kamehameha", likely meaning its energy density far surpasses its predecessor, the "full power" Planet-Destroying Kamehameha, and with Cell building up the Kamehameha long enough for Gohan, Vegeta, and Piccolo to curse their individual uselessnesses in succession, the Solar Kamehameha is going to need a separate rating all to itself. Even the El Manga Legendario excerpt that Cell's 4-B confirmation blog references explicitly mentions that Cell had "accumulated enough energy to destroy the whole Solar System", which means that its normal stats no longer scale to >1.053 KiloFOE.

What its normal stats are going to be is up for discussion.

 

[Damage3245]

Presumably this revision would also affect Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, so we'd need normal stats for him as well.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Presumably this revision would also affect Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, so we'd need normal stats for him as well.

I don't think so as Gohan was stronger than him but had wasted both Ki and was injured. I see this making sense for cell though.

 

[GarrixianXD]

no.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

no.

You think Gohan had about the same power as well?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Well since the Tien thread kinda made way for this it was inevitable. Just a matter of finding out what the new values could be and if SS2 Gohan still scales.

 

[GarrixianXD]

This is more than just a disagree and approving CRT…

 

[SirAlex09]

Presumably this revision would also affect Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, so we'd need normal stats for him as well.

Shouldn't this affect Buu-Saga characters as well?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

This is more than just a disagree and approving CRT…

This is also a thread where scaling also needs to be addressed since it absolutely changes it and we can't just remove scaling without a proper backup.

 

[Damage3245]

Shouldn't this affect Buu-Saga characters as well?

Yeah, but those would require less discussion since they'd be affected by whatever will happen with Cell and Gohan.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I do think Majin Vegeta, Buu, Ssj 3 and those should scale far above cell.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Well, potentially, Revived Cell would upscale from 204.790995 Foe through Powerhouse Cell, considering its Perfect form scales to/downscales from Grade 3 Trunks.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Well, potentially, Revived Cell would upscale from 204.790995 Foe through Powerhouse Cell, considering its Perfect form scales to/downscales from Grade 3 Trunks.

Funny. Still 4-B.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Yes, but about 10x smaller.

 

[Damage3245]

Okay. I'm fine with going for that.

4-B, higher with Kamehameha for Revived Cell and SS2 Gohan.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Okay. I'm fine with going for that.

4-B, higher with Kamehameha for Revived Cell and SS2 Gohan.

So tier doesn't change but just placement in said tier?

 

[Hasty12345]

What striking strength/physical feats does DBZ even have?

I can’t think of anything outside of 2-C striking strength with SUper

 

[Nullflowerblush]

What striking strength/physical feats does DBZ even have?

I can’t think of anything outside of 2-C striking strength with SUper

Nothing impressive.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

What striking strength/physical feats does DBZ even have?

I can’t think of anything outside of 2-C striking strength with SUper

Striking should be the same as their Ki attacks. Physical not that good.

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

Disagree, Cell should profile should stay as it is. They are channeling their own internal ki into their ki attacks and/or physical bodies to quantifiably enhances it. Meaning this Kamehameha will also scale to the physical stats when he uses that ki attack.


In order to qualify for a Universal Energy System and do scaling according to it, a character or the system they are using needs to fulfill all criteria for a Non-physical Energy System (also needs to have Limited Energy System to qualify for a Non-Physical Energy System). Additionally, they have to demonstrate that they can channel their power through their own bodies in a way that quantifiably enhances them or otherwise allows scaling of their supernatural powers through their physicals. Hence there should be evidence that an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their physical statistics. In the rare case that it is relevant for scaling the reverse should also be demonstrated: That a feat of non-empowered physical strength applies to the amount of supernatural power. Visual evidence of amplification is not considered necessary.

If the power source or universal energy system should be removed from a user by some means that should result in a notable loss in physical strength or alternatively even in physical harm or death. That doesn't necessarily mean that they should be reduced to the level of regular humans, though. Note that removal of energy sources can also have detrimental effects if they are not universal and as such negative effects of removal do not necessarily imply universalness.


Universal Energy System: Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would also scale to all other statistics. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Iffy on that. He can use his Ki to achieve the same defense as his attack but like the kamehameha it would leave him completely drained and be completely useless.

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

Iffy on that. He can use his Ki to achieve the same defense as his attack but like the kamehameha it would leave him completely drained and be completely useless.

Yes that could be a possibility. That doesn't mean he cannot.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Yes that could be a possibility. That doesn't mean he cannot.

It would just be a sidenote like he can also get the same durability as his most powerful attack but it's an one time thing and will leave him drained.

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

It would just be a sidenote like he can also get the same durability as his most powerful attack but it's an one time thing and will leave him drained.

Him being drained also proves the UES properties (explained in my first reply above) when the user loses or uses too much of that "energy", they become physically weaken. Also, it being a "one time thing" is mostly irrelevant, the point is that this power can/is channel through their bodies. If they fight at maximum capacity it's obvious they will use too much ki.

 

[Damage3245]

Disagree, Cell should profile should stay as it is. They are channeling their own internal ki into their ki attacks and/or physical bodies to quantifiably enhances it. Meaning this Kamehameha will also scale to the physical stats when he uses that ki attack.

When has anybody ever been stated to increase their physical stats to the same level as their charged Kamehameha?

Also, this is contradicted by cases where characters have shown visibly more power with their Kamehameha than they're capable of physically. Such as Goku failing to damage a wall with his kicks and punches, but could blast a hole though it with his Kamehameha.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Disagree, Cell should profile should stay as it is. They are channeling their own internal ki into their ki attacks and/or physical bodies to quantifiably enhances it. Meaning this Kamehameha will also scale to the physical stats when he uses that ki attack.

Should I put you down as neutral?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

When has anybody ever been stated to increase their physical stats to the same level as their charged Kamehameha?

Also, this is contradicted by cases where characters have shown visibly more power with their Kamehameha than they're capable of physically. Such as Goku failing to damage a wall with his kicks and punches, but could blast a hole though it with his Kamehameha.

Because Kamehameha is always a charged move. Attacks can be both charged and uncharged like Nappa cutting Tien's hand, Goku killing Piccolo, Jiren vs Goku where physical attacks had similar results to ki attacks. Physical stats can absolutely reach the same level as ki attacks. I have already stated that no-one uses them that often as they are fighting from afar or want to gain distance. I would also say the movies as examples but they are still the movies. But also trunks amping his sword against Zamasu.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Oh, right, thanks for the reminder.

The character that have demonstrated the ability to wield the power of super attacks physically were Jiren, Goku, and Vegeta, with the latter two using God-to-Blue switching to maximize their power.

 

[Damage3245]

Because Kamehameha is always a charged move. Attacks can be both charged and uncharged like Nappa cutting Tien's hand, Goku killing Piccolo, Jiren vs Goku where physical attacks had similar results to ki attacks. Physical stats can absolutely reach the same level as ki attacks. I have already stated that no-one uses them that often as they are fighting from afar or want to gain distance. I would also say the movies as examples but they are still the movies. But also trunks amping his sword against Zamasu.

Then we should just keep them for the characters who have shown it instead of assuming that everyone can and will do it.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Then we should just keep them for the characters who have shown it instead of assuming that everyone can and will do it.

No it doesn't work like that. It's not a special ability in Dragonball and everyone has it.

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

When has anybody ever been stated to increase their physical stats to the same level as their charged Kamehameha?

Also, this is contradicted by cases where characters have shown visibly more power with their Kamehameha than they're capable of physically. Such as Goku failing to damage a wall with his kicks and punches, but could blast a hole though it with his Kamehameha.

It has been shown that they can implying their own energy to their bodies, this is why you have them raise their battle power or going at full power. The best example is goku has a kid controlling the flow of his to ki to the maximum to pierce threw king piccolo and kill him. The so called contradiction you have stated is not, its simply misunderstanding.

"where characters have shown visibly more power with their Kamehameha than they're capable of physically. Such as Goku failing to damage a wall with his kicks and punches, but could blast a hole though it with his Kamehameha."

You fail to realize, that the Kamehameha for example, expels more of the users internal power and throw's it at their opponents. Of course their regular kicks or punches would be weaker in comparison to their non-powered up state since they are expelling this ki as a projectile attack rather than using it to amp their bodies.

In order to qualify for a Universal Energy System and do scaling according to it, a character or the system they are using needs to fulfill all criteria for a Non-physical Energy System (also needs to have Limited Energy System to qualify for a Non-Physical Energy System). Additionally, they have to demonstrate that they can channel their power through their own bodies in a way that quantifiably enhances them or otherwise allows scaling of their supernatural powers through their physicals. Hence there should be evidence that an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their physical statistics. In the rare case that it is relevant for scaling the reverse should also be demonstrated: That a feat of non-empowered physical strength applies to the amount of supernatural power. Visual evidence of amplification is not considered necessary.

If the power source or universal energy system should be removed from a user by some means that should result in a notable loss in physical strength or alternatively even in physical harm or death. That doesn't necessarily mean that they should be reduced to the level of regular humans, though. Note that removal of energy sources can also have detrimental effects if they are not universal and as such negative effects of removal do not necessarily imply universalness.

They can channel their own ki that is already in their bodies to enhances their physical stats. The higher the ki, the higher the physical stats of the user. Without ki, their natural bodies durability is low and losing "ki" greatly weakens their overall physical stats.

Universal Energy System: Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would also scale to all other statistics. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

According to the UES page, if they do a feat that is with ki or with physical stats, it is assumed that they have at least that level of physical stats that the feat has demonstrated.

Should I put you down as neutral?

If there is a disagree option put me on that, if not the second best would be neutral.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Also literally Gohan's headbutt against Raditz and Gohan couldn't even use Ki that well. Like ..... it's not up for debate at all. Ki is a universal system and attacks are easily replicated and everyone raises their stats via ki. The fact that they can't just dump all of it wherever they want when they can even force it outside their bodies is completely impossible.

 

[Damage3245]

@Borutonarutodebunked Either way though, whether they can put their charged energy into their strikes or not, their ordinary Striking Strength and ordinary Ki blasts clearly doesn't scale to it otherwise there would be no need to charge it.

So it would still be more correct to put them down as "4-B, higher with Kamehameha" here for their Attack Potency.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

@Borutonarutodebunked Either way though, whether they can put their charged energy into their strikes or not, their ordinary Striking Strength and ordinary Ki blasts clearly doesn't scale to it otherwise there would be no need to charge it.

So it would still be more correct to put them down as "4-B, higher with Kamehameha" here for their Attack Potency.

Yeah I am not disagreeing with that. Just stating they can use all their Ki however they want. Maybe 4-B and higher with total use of Ki like with Super Kamehameha would be more appropriate?

 

[Hypertornado099]

the "full power" Planet-Destroying Kamehameha

Why does this album include the same last image 6 times?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Why does this album include the same last image 6 times?

He just really liked the image.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Ki is a universal system and attacks are easily replicated and everyone raises their stats via ki.

Yes. This is common knowledge.
Like how full power Goku having a Power Level of 416 is common knowledge.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

If Cell has to continuously accumulate the energy required to pull off the Solar Kamehameha for as long as the story depicted, not scaling to its normal stats.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Yes. This is common knowledge.
Like how full power Goku having a Power Level of 416 is common knowledge.

What do you mean by that?

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

@Borutonarutodebunked Either way though, whether they can put their charged energy into their strikes or not, their ordinary Striking Strength and ordinary Ki blasts clearly doesn't scale to it otherwise there would be no need to charge it.

So it would still be more correct to put them down as "4-B, higher with Kamehameha" here for their Attack Potency.

Of course their ordinary attacks wouldn't scale, because they are not always fighting at full capacity of they own ki.

The best solution for both would be something like: "4-B", higher at full power/ using Kamehameha for all physical stats and AP.