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Bleach: Renji and Mask

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Someone give me a small TLDR about both sides of the arguments.
 
"Unreliable source"
1- the one who stated is the curator of the technique , pretty reliable SINCE HE IS THE ONE WHO DEVELOPED IT FOR GOD KNOWS HOW-
2-there is no reason for him to lie about his technique.
"Beam of light isn't literate "
1- why wouldn't it?Considering it follows three of our qualification, beam of light seems literate.
2- prove it that it's "hyperbole " " figurative speach" "not literate " "flowery language "
[Tbh saying something is a hyperbole etc without providing evidence indicates that you don't have any legitimate argument bedsides "flowery language because I siad so gg"
"Being called a beam of light isn't enough "
1-on it's own? I semi agree with that
2- it has other properties of light, plus the "beam of light " and didn't we have a ctr about "beam of light" statement should be considered legit?
"The techniques are the same"
1- Ahahahahjajahaha no
2- nah
3- everything about the techniques isn't the same except the user and that they are from the same energy source. I guess all the bankais are the same since they came from a sword and that shingimas use them. Ichigo getting aizen's abilities when?
 
KingTempest said:
Someone give me a small TLDR about both sides of the arguments.
Click to expand...
Pro
Mask's laser satisfies two LS requirements therefore it's LS.
1) It visibly reflects off a Zanpakuto, Mask backs this up saying his laser was deflected.
2) It's called a beam of light by Mask. Mask having 100s to 1000s of years to familiarize himself with his techniques + having "daten" from Yhwach on Quincy techniques = reliable source.

Con
Beam of light is flowery language.

Debunked Counter-Arguments to the OP
Star Flash Supernova bends therefore Star Flash cannot be LS. Debunk being the name argument from Bleach.
Arc7Kuroi said:
Never did I once say apply the name literally. That’s a name association fallacy. What Zoro said sums it up perfectly, even techniques/abilities/weapons can function drastically differently depending on the name.

Yumichika’s Zanpakuto gains a whole ass new ability when called by its real name.

Renji’s Bankai completely changes forms and gets new abilities when called by it’s true name.

Byakuya has numerous named techniques that despite just being his petals arranged in shapes can hit massively above his normal weight class because they have unique names.

Star Flash and Star Flash Supernova are inherently different techniques because they are separate named techniques within Bleach.

And regardless Star Flash Supernova is not an anti feat for Star Flash. One is a beam technique the other is a movement technique that summons a massive exploding laser.

Stop comparing separate attacks, because by your logic then any laser in Bleach is light speed because it “looks like Star Flash”, every attack on Bleach must be of equal power while we are at it because everyone uses spiritual energy to battle.

Your “naming techniques doesn’t mean anything” argument is a blatant admission to your lack of understanding of the source material.
Click to expand...

It should be noted that damage has stated in thread that he can "give us the beam of light" point, so it's really just AKM.
 
It should be noted that damage has stated in thread that he can "give us the beam of light" point, so it's really just AKM.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure I said "even if I grant this one". I'm still in agreement with AKM.

I'm also not sold by the reflection argument.
 
So is "possibly" not an option at all?

There are like 3 staff members in agreement so far so I think it's pretty clear there is enough evidence to at least support a "possibly".
 
Because we don't see where the beam is heading towards? Why do we even care? Even if it went to the goddamn space, doesn't disprove it at all
we see the beam reflecting against a metal surface [aka a sword]
every argument was literally stupid: 1- attacks are the same [while also ignoring the iddfrnet names, application, usages, the way how to use them]
2- beam of light is not literal or it's not enough [even tho there is no reason to doubt the words of the user of the technique, plus being stated beam of light is one if the qualification of light speed laser beams]
3- we don't see where it goes [ignoring the fact that it doesn't matter since what matter is the reflection part, the beam could get reflected to another universe and start a family and it won't matter.]
4- it doesn't follow the qualification [even tho it's stated to be a beam of light, it doesn't bend, it reflects off surfaces, it doesn't explode, it actually leaves a trail of smoke/vaporizing. It goes in a straight light]
 
Purgy said:
So is "possibly" not an option at all?

There are like 3 staff members in agreement so far so I think it's pretty clear there is enough evidence to at least support a "possibly".
Click to expand...
Would you even accept that? Giving a "At least MHS+, possibly FTL" rating to 30+ characters?
 
Purgy said:
So is "possibly" not an option at all?

There are like 3 staff members in agreement so far so I think it's pretty clear there is enough evidence to at least support a "possibly".
Click to expand...
No currently 3 staff accept flat out FTL, wherein two don't.

And damage's "reflection" point is so easily debunked that I'm confused why he still holds it.

No possibly, right now it is just FTL. If it were a draw thjen a compromise would be an acceptable option, but as of now there is majority support for the OP.
 
Agreement: LordGriff, Tempest, Mitch
Disagreement: AKM, Damage

To which the three main points of disagreement are:
1) It didn't reflect -> we see and are told it did.
2) SF Supernova doesn't act like light -> it's an entire separate attack.
3) Beam of light is flowery language -> semantical, not provable, in fact logically unlikely.

So the disagreement is based on 2 provably false premises and 1 that is shaky at best.
 
Damage3245 said:
Would you even accept that? Giving a "At least MHS+, possibly FTL" rating to 30+ characters?
Click to expand...
30+ characters?

Seems like a bit of an exaggeration to me, I can't think of that many characters that have an explicit reason to scale to or above Post-Royal Guard Training Renji in speed.

And even so what's the actual issue with this? Isn't the MHS+ based on a ridiculous scaling chain stemming from several arcs ago?
 
Let's say even 100+ gets it
and?
If they have logical reasons to scale why wouldn't we give them The rating?
 
Orange said:
And since you disagree
you really wouldn't mind giving us logical reason that made you Conclude such decision right?
Click to expand...
I'll come back to this thread on the morning.
 
Our speed ratings for a majority of the verse are based on like two calcs, a lowballed as possible Orihime explosion calc and Gin's Zanpakuto. So, I don't want to hear you cry "it's so much higher than what we currently rate them".
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Our speed ratings for a majority of the verse are based on like two calcs, a lowballed as possible Orihime explosion calc and Gin's Zanpakuto. So, I don't want to hear you cry "it's so much higher than what we currently rate them".
Click to expand...
Whether or not the ratings are suitable / an outlier or not is a separate topic to the actual validity of the feat. I've got points to make on that when we get to that point.
 
Let's be honest, the Bleach speed ratings were brutalized, not even a year ago they were FTL+ with some reaching MFTL, now most of the verse is sitting on MHS+.

This is one of the primary issues I have with the "outlier" argument, it's based entirely on their current ratings which are subject to change at the drop of a hat.

A FTL feat would have been considered a joke compared to their ratings 8 months ago, now it's an outlier apparently.

Might be derailing a bit
 
If the purpose of this thread is to just get the feat accepted then yeah, scaling can be discussed in a "sequel" thread of sorts.

That sequel thread might be a good time to talk about other potential TYBW LS feats/attacks (Auswahlen, Lille, Nimaiya, etc).
 
I don't see any outlier here and it feels deep down even damage knows star flash is light speed but refuses to admit it
 
As per the OPs request, discussion on “outlier” will be saved for a thread on the application of the calc. This thread is merely getting it accepted.
 
To give my final thoughts on the subject of the feat itself, the two primary arguments put forward for it are:

1) It visibly reflects off a Zanpakuto, Mask backs this up saying his laser was deflected.
Click to expand...

  • The panel of the beam "reflecting" off of Renji's Zanpakuto looks ambiguous to me; we see the beam striking the sword obviously but not the beam being redirected anywhere else. It looks like the beam is just impacting against the sword and being blocked. This is the main reason why I'd prefer to wait and see if the anime adaptation could shed some light on this by making it clear whether or not the beam was just stopped or if the beam was sent in another direction after hitting Renji's sword.
  • Mask does not say that Renji reflected the beam. He says that Renji "turned aside" his Star Flash but deflecting an energy attack isn't proof that reflection was a part of it.
  • Also, just want to note that typical definition of "reflection" is "(of a surface or body) throw back (heat, light, or sound) without absorbing it." Renji's blade clearly has smoke/steam rising off of it from where the beam hit meaning that it absorbed some or all of the energy thrown at it. While this could be down to Renji's sword not being a perfect mirror, it does seem odd that the sword is capable of apparently reflecting the beam but also getting scorched by it.
2) It's called a beam of light by Mask. Mask having 100s to 1000s of years to familiarize himself with his techniques + having "daten" from Yhwach on Quincy techniques = reliable source.
Click to expand...

  • As AKM said, Mask's whole gimmick makes his statement a bit doubtful:
And no, I am not going back on my word. From the first viewing of this topic, I have repeatedly voiced my concerns about how the statement is not delivered in a matter-of-fact way. Extravagant use of language when it was delivered indicates it's not meant to be taken literally, but symbolically. The statement has been delivered, and it's not a reliable one, and nothing is going to change that until we have new evidence. We can go back and forth according to how "oh this makes complete sense, it's totally meant literally, the character is very reliable yada yada" and "insert opposite argument here", it's not going to change.
Click to expand...

  • He calls his attacks "punches and headbutts of justice", he refers to himself as a "star", that his "soul is burning up with justice". Statements do need to come from a reliable source and simply saying "He's had hundreds of years to know about his techniques" misses the point. A person can be well aware of their own techniques and still be boastful or misleading.
  • The other reason why I'm not sold on this point is because of the precedent of things in Bleach being "made of light" and not having the property of lightspeed. Even if we took Mask as being literal, and the Reishi of his attack was changed to be like light, without solid confirmation of the beam being the speed of light, it is more difficult to accept. I know there's been calls on this thread to "look at this feat alone and not bring up other attacks" but establishing precedent is important. If the verse has multiple "light attacks" that aren't lightspeed, then this puts a "beam of light" attack with no solid confirmation of lightspeed to be put in doubt.
I don't see any outlier here and it feels deep down even damage knows star flash is light speed but refuses to admit it
Click to expand...

This might just be my perspective on it, but this is not a matter of people "knowing" that the attack is lightspeed or not. The issue is about whether the properties demonstrated so far makes it reasonable to assume that the attack is lightspeed or not, especially since a speed hasn't been stated for it.

Anyway; I think we should probably avoid going back around in circles since I think AKM and myself have effectively posted our final thoughts on our objections to it. I think that more staff members needs to be called in to evaluate it.
 
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…………. those other light attacks have anti feats of being actual light or are just light constructs.

If there is a verse where everyone and their mother are shooting lasers from their guns but that shit bends, thus disqualifying it as real light/lightspeed, but then Bob comes along and fires what is called a laser from a different gun model, it doesn’t have the same bending as the others, starts ricocheting of mirrors, vaporising it’s way through people etc, your opinion would be to say what is clearly a laser and showcases itself as such, is not actually a laser because other stuff that are called lasers have anti feats????
 
Purgy said:
So is "possibly" not an option at all?
Click to expand...
Unfortunately no. If it does not fulfill the standards, it does not fulfill the standards.

The standards are specific that they want a "clear" statement regarding the beam's composition, and it is put into place exactly because simply being called light beam in any context is not clear enough. There should be no two ways to interpret a reliable statement, that's what reliability means. It can only be interpreted with clarity. "Prove it's not clear, it's clear to me" no. The positive has to be proven beyond doubt, not the other way around. That's basic debating.

It does not matter how many people agree with this (although, I am going to call for more input), it goes against the very standards, and until that changes, no amount of agreement will get this accepted. I'm sorry.
 
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AKM sama said:
Unfortunately no. If it does not fulfill the standards, it does not fulfill the standards.

The standards are specific that they want a "clear" statement regarding the beam's composition
Click to expand...
I dont know where it does not fulfill the standard, the standard mentions that being made by light is also a valid point of a beam being made by light

vsbattles.fandom.com

Laser/Light Beam Dodging Feats

"Light" or "Laser" dodging is a fairly common trope seen in fiction and often the center of debate regarding characters' speeds, given that light is the fastest known thing in the real universe. This article will set forth the standards of this wiki in determining what is considered a real...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
There was a thread so that "made of light" is now accepted as clearing the 4th requirement, so it does fulfill the requirements, you not liking it is another story.

So it Does qualify and would be accepted if the votes goes in favor of it, sorry.
 
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AKM sama said:
Unfortunately no. If it does not fulfill the standards, it does not fulfill the standards.

The standards are specific that they want a "clear" statement regarding the beam's composition, and it is put into place exactly because simply being called light beam in any context is not clear enough. There should be no two ways to interpret a reliable statement, that's what reliability means. It can only be interpreted with clarity. "Prove it's not clear, it's clear to me" no. The positive has to be proven beyond doubt, not the other way around. That's basic debating.

It does not matter how many people agree with this (although, I am going to call for more input), it goes against the very standards, and until that changes, no amount of agreement will get this accepted. I'm sorry.
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Not gonna lie, idk why your opinions alone is so set in stone when there’s like 3 or 4 other staff members that agree with this. Better get a reality check man. Your not the most important person in the world man
 
SilentBob34 said:
Not gonna lie, idk why your opinions alone is so set in stone when there’s like 3 or 4 other staff members that agree with this. Better get a reality check man. Your not the most important person in the world man
Click to expand...
This is uncalled for. Disagreeing with a staff member's judgement does not mean belittling them.
 
Damage3245 said:
This is uncalled for. Disagreeing with a staff member's judgement does not mean belittling them.
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Sorry, it’s just his earlier comment about making a discussion rule when this thread has literally been brought up like 3 times in total is completely unnecessary. One time to apply it, one time to reject it, and one time to reapply it since standards changed. So forgive me for being a little hostile when he’s coming in full guns blazing with his attempt at being the whole justifier of this thing like it’s his sole opinion that matters

Like seriously Damage, you can’t tell me his discussion rule making is in the wrong when others have brought up that it took like 5 threads of the same thing when people have made a seireitei downgrade thread and it took that many times finally make a discussion rule about it. One that doesn’t really matter because as soon as the anime comes out you’re going to make another. I’m just skeptical when it comes to staff members commenting on Bleach because I know they’re not in favor of it
Like really seriously, I 100% agree with you on some points in Bleach but the fact that a calc that was actually accepted with the current size of seireitei goes through and you make a thread to downgrade it after not doing so for who knows how long shows you were fine when it didn’t upgrade characters but the second it did you had a problem with with it. It’s not even that I have a problem with AKM’s sayings, it’s just people are agreeing and accepting what he says even though more staff members have said their agreeing with this thread
 
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SilentBob34 said:
Sorry, it’s just his earlier comment about making a discussion rule when this thread has literally been brought up like 3 times in total is completely unnecessary. One time to apply it, one time to reject it, and one time to reapply it since standards changed. So forgive me for being a little hostile when he’s coming in full guns blazing with his attempt at being the whole justifier of this thing like it’s his sole opinion that matters
Click to expand...
2 times

1 when it got accepted

2 when it got discarded cus change at the light beam requirements

And now this one which is being made after the new thread of the requirements
(Not counting this one cus is not concluded)
 
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