• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Bleach: Renji and Mask

Status
Not open for further replies.
The way this statement is delivered, it can easily be interpreted as something symbolic. Like villains, who are linked with darkness, shall perish at the hands of a hero, who spread light.
Seriously how in the hell are you getting this from that statement? He literally describes what he did in that situation and you came to the conclusion it's some sort of abstract analogy about shrouding darkness in light?

How in the world is it symbolic if he quite literally fires a beam.
 
So the argument is "mask is unreliable" cus he call himself a hero and his enemy a villain? Which in his perspective is correct as he sees his side as good and the enemies side as evil/villains?
 
Just with a look, you can discern that this statement is not stated in a matter-of-fact way. This is not an elaborate explanation of the attack that informs us what it does or what it's made of. The purpose of this statement is to tell a character that he is going to die at the hand of Mask, with a "beam of light" phrase added without further context.
He doesn't need to put glasses and a suit on, then give you a 50 minute lecture, accompanied by a 20 page thesis on how his attack works.

If I have a sword and call it a sword, are you going to question if it's a sword because I didn't give you a molecular breakdown and a history of it's creation?

The statement is in fact made in a "matter-of-fact" way. Mask 100% intends on massacring and brutalizing Renji until Renji is dead. He displays clear intent to kill with his actions and statement, then proceeds to inform the reader that his attack is a "beam of light".

I agree that "beam of light" needs further context before making a conclusive decision, but let's see what else you say first.

More importantly, let's take a look at Mask's character, since he is the person speaking. Something to know about Mask is he has a habit of adding flair to his language. He calls his attacks "punches and headbutts of justice", he refers to himself as a "star", that his "soul is burning up with justice". All of these are hyperboles.
First, what part of "beam of light" sounds hyperbolic to you? If I say "die villainous scum at the explosion of my nuclear bomb!", is nuclear bomb hyperbolic?

Second, "of justice" is not inherently hyperbolic either. To Mask and the rest of the Quincy, he is on the side of Justice, to Mask he is the good guy and the Shinigami are the bad guy. The fact he uses "childish" terms is a non-point. Every time he refers to himself as "justice" he is being literal, as he believes himself just. Every time he refers to the enemy as "villains" he is being literal, as he believes them to be evil. Every time he refers to himself as the "star" (which star doesn't mean celestial body star here, it means star as in hero, star of the show, etc) he is being literal, as he believes himself to be the hero who will eradicate the villainy (Shinigami) from this world.

So, no in actuality he is not being hyperbolic at all. This is merely a case of Mask acting "cartoony", using a "child-like" vocabulary, acting like your classic comic book hero of when your parent's parents were kids.

Let's look at the statement again after taking the into account that Mask has a habit of adding flair and using hyperboles: "The villain shall die by a hero's beam of light".
The way this statement is delivered, it can easily be interpreted as something symbolic. Like villains, who are linked with darkness, shall perish at the hands of a hero, who spread light. All the talk about "justice this and justice that", this flowery language perfectly fits Mask. You can see the similarities between "headbutt of justice" and "hero's beam of light". Both justice and light are spread by the heroes in the world.
Considering Mask's statements are not inherently hyperbolic by definition, because hyperboles by definition are not literal, and Mask himself is very literal, this is just a faulty interpretation. Allow me to re-propose a better interpretation backed up by the feats of the attack itself.

anyway for new comers:

25FBNqD.jpg


latest.png


光線/Kōsen beam; light ray

latest.png


0399-011.png


The beam is called light
Reflecting in a reflective material (Zanpakutô already demonstrated to be reflective )
Travel straight
Does not explode, simply burns / vaporizes what comes in contact


Calc itself is already accepted at 1.29c
As Cyber so graciously points out with the scans, Mask fires a laser that is refered to as a "beam of light", said "beam of light" later reflects off the provably reflective surface of a blade.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/light-speed-qualifications.120346/post-3961835 As AKM agreed to within the most recent LS CRT, "unless contradicted, beam of light, satisfies the fourth requirement, given it is made from a reliable source."

https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleach-renji-and-mask.120729/post-3975629 As Elizhaa and many others share the sentiment of, Mask being the creator of the technique is a reliable source.

Considering the technique creator calls it a "beam of light", it reflects like light, it has no contradictions to being light speed, it is light speed.
 
I will say it again
Mask refers himself as a hero because he believes himself as a hero, it would actually be hyperbole if he refers his as a villain when he considers himself a hero. His statement is the most literate thing. "The villain shall die by the hero's beam of light " villain refers to his opponent, very literal, unless his opponent doesn't exist. Hero refers to himself, unless he isn't real them it would be literal, beam of light is very literal, it's a beam, made from light, has light like properties
 
Anyway, I am swinging back to supporting AKM then.
 
For what reasons I may ask? I mean you obviously knowledgeable enough to make your own arguments which lead you to being on AKM side, would you mind presenting us why?
 
For what reasons I may ask? I mean you obviously knowledgeable enough to make your own arguments which lead you to being on AKM side, would you mind presenting us why?
Do you know that you can... agree with someone else's argument because it made sense to you, without adding anything of your own? Ant isn't knowledgeable about the issue, so expecting him to add his own arguments is foolish. He can simply look at both arguments presented and decide for himself which one makes more sense to him as a whole.
 
AKM's entire argument is predicated on Mask speaking exclusively in hyperboles. Which is not provably the case, as a hyperbole is not something that is taken literally, yet there exists sufficient evidence pointing to Mask being quite literal when he calls the bad guys villains and the good guys justice.

His entire argument is not provable at all.
 
Just noticed when I posted in the other Bleach thread that Kubo had Candice state exactly how many gigajoules one of her arrows contains. Just because Mask made a comment on hero’s and villain’s shouldn’t discredit Mask at all. If Candice knows how many joules are in her arrows then there’s no reason to assume Mask doesn’t know his beam of light is made of light.

Candice is a far more straight forward character so it makes more sense for her to state something like that. With Mask’s personality it’d be weird for him to say “ now the villain will die by the hero’s beam of light! Which is also made up of photons and is real light!” Kubo is literally playing to their personality’s
Just wanna have you read that @Antvasima if you haven’t already
 
"A few" usually means at least 3 in my experience. What do you think @DontTalkDT ?
Except for more than one there is no strict standard. It depends a bit on how strong the individual evidence is, though, even if there is no strict written standard on that.

For example, Marisa's Master Spark has the following statement:
But even if you go back to the past or forward to the future, my Master Spark's impression ought to be exactly the same. In other words, the speed of light is unchanging throughout all of space-time.
That is referencing a really specific aspect of relativism, which is only possessed by lightspeed things and light in particular. That evidence is so strong that it almost carries lightspeed on its own.

Reflecting is good evidence, but not as good as something like the above.

And a simple "it's a beam of light" kind statement is below both of those in terms of how significant it is.

If such weaker kinds of evidence a used 3 is probably better than 2.
 
DontTalkDT:

Thank you for helping out. So do you think that we might need to clarify that at least 2 requirements need to be fulfilled for strong self-evident evidence, and at least 3 for weaker evidence?
 
DontTalkDT:

Thank you for helping out. So do you think that we might need to clarify that at least 2 requirements need to be fulfilled for strong self-evident evidence, and at least 3 for weaker evidence?
Personally, I like the wiggle room, but I suppose it would help people with evaluation if we did.
 
If that's the case yeah maybe update the LS requirement page to have a:

Strong Requirements (need 1 to 2 or whatever)

Weak Requirements (need 3 or more)

Not Requirements
 
If that's the case yeah maybe update the LS requirement page to have a:

Strong Requirements (need 1 to 2 or whatever)

Weak Requirements (need 3 or more)

Not Requirements
I think a strict classification in strong and weak would be difficult. On one hand, because we're talking about a spectrum, and on the other because individual details are relevant, too. Like, how reliable a person a statement comes from and the context surrounding it also has significance. A statement delivered as a result of scientific research would for example weigh heavier than one that comes from a casual line.
I think that's one of the things where leaving room for debate is appropiate.
 
I think that would be difficult. On one hand, because we're talking about a spectrum, and on the other because individual details are relevant, too. Like, how reliable a person a statement comes from and the context surrounding it also has significance. A statement delivered as a result of scientific research would for example weigh heavier than one that comes from a casual line.
I think that's one of the things where leaving room for debate is appropiate.
All I mean is make that more transparent on the LS page.

Because laser feats get LS all the time for "beam of light" + 1 more. In fact Mask had it only last year.
 
On the reliable source for the attacks composition, would it help that Kisuke (smartest dude in the series and can learn the composition/mechanics of attacks by looking at it a few times) says that Quincy attacks are made of light?

This is not to say all of their stuff is light speed since most of the attacks are constructs rather than actual beams or elemental in nature like fire or lightning, but seeing as Mask’s Star Flash is called a “beam of light”, isn’t a construct and doesn’t show other elemental properties like other Quincy moves, I figured it might be worth pointing out.
 
On the reliable source for the attacks composition, would it help that Kisuke (smartest dude in the series and can learn the composition/mechanics of attacks by looking at it a few times) says that Quincy attacks are made of light?

This is not to say all of their stuff is light speed since most of the attacks are constructs rather than actual beams or elemental in nature like fire or lightning, but seeing as Mask’s Star Flash is called a “beam of light”, isn’t a construct and doesn’t show other elemental properties like other Quincy moves, I figured it might be worth pointing out.
That seems like a valid point.
 
Kisuke is explaining to Ryuken and Isshin about how he will save Masaki from being infected by White.

Also included a scan from a Databook referring to Uryu’s arrow as “a ray of light”. Once again it’s a construct of said light so not lightspeed but does back up Kisuke’s statement.

Sort of on topic but off topic, iirc the live action also refers to the arrows as being made of light. Pseudo relevant because Kubo praised it for being able to get so much of Bleach lore into it. Not exactly a major point but I figured more support would help. I’d need to go find the scans for the stuff mentioned in this paragraph tho.
 
i believe he is referring to this , tho i wouldnt say all quincy arrows are made of light because urahara specifically said he used the quincy arrow of light If all were made of light he couldve simply said quincy arrow without adding the extra stuff
 
I agree with DT that we cannot make a strict standard that satisfies each and every case in fiction. There's a basic skeleton and we need to take it from there because at the end of the day, each instance has its own different context. Leaving out wiggle room helps analyze things on case-by-case basis.
 
I think that this is the scan he's referring to. Urahara refers to a "Quincy's Arrow of Light". That seems more like a technique name to me and not a description for every single Quincy attack/technique.

EDIT: I've been Ninja'd.
i believe he is referring to this , tho i wouldnt say all quincy arrows are made of light because urahara specifically said he used the quincy arrow of light If all were made of light he couldve simply said quincy arrow without adding the extra stuff
While I can see the point you are trying to make, Isshin wasn’t alive/or at least part of the Gotei 13/Quincy genocide considering Masaki is the first Quincy he has seen or met and he didn’t recognise her as a Quincy despite seeing her repeatedly spam arrows at White. Considering Isshin’s complete lack of knowledge on Quincies and the Databook similarly saying Uryu’s basic arrow is made of light, it makes more sense that Kisuke is explaining how it all works to Isshin rather than referencing a specific move when you see all the detail he includes in said explanation for literally everything (that isn’t something he knows Isshin will know like Gigai). Uryu’s arrows are also not noted to be different from those of other Quincy with Ichigo’s only comment on them being the power difference. Given that Kisuke was able to attain this arrow of light before when he managed to save the Visoreds which would be rather difficult if it was a special type of arrow (we know that not all Quincies can learn all the techniques), how Quincies hide from Shinigami as a rule and are so few in number that living Quincies are nothing but a rumor to the highest ranking Shinigami.

Conclusion: I feel it’s fairly obvious that Kisuke’s statement referred to the standard arrow rather than a specific technique which would get a bunch of exposition like every other Quincy technique/equipment that appears like Ransotengai, Sanrei Glove, Letzt Stil, Hirenkyaku, all the Schrifts etc.
 
All quincies can manipulate light. It's their standard ability to create light arrows as Kisuke explained. Like uryu firing rays of light and one of the Quincy girls. Uryu's light arrow also showing reflection of hashwalths sword. Quincies light arrows are shown to be blue. Mask beam of light is also blue and has been shown to behave like light. So because mask is a Quincy and Quincy are known for controlling light. To say his light beam is not light because of the way he said it,I think is being dishonest. Just for calling someone a villain and himself a hero.
 
What's the count at currently? Because I think the majority are against this now.
 
It's like 3/4 in agree seeing how Elizhaa was leaning towards yes. Then 4/5 in disagree. I talked briefly with soldier blue on his wall, and he's seemingly neutral leaning disagree, so this thread is lookin like a close and rejected until/if Mask's beam is further explained in future material.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top