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Bleach: Renji and Mask

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I've sent a message to AKM for a comment since they left a summary of the issues on the previous thread. Just waiting on a response.
 
This again.

To recapitulate my main issues:

1. The statement used to justify it being light is as follows:

"The villain shall die... by the hero's beam of light"

Notice the use of extravagant language here. The villain, the hero, the hero's light. This could be easily interpreted as being symbolic and used for hype alone. This isn't stated as some matter-of-fact thing. This is literally a "hero" telling a "villain" (associated with "darkness") that he will be defeated by his "light". If it would have been something like "beam made of light", it would have been much more matter-of-fact.

This sentence has the same energy as "the villain shall be defeated by the hero's punch of justice". It's not meant to be taken literally. The idea that this is light speed should be rejected due to this point alone, as the premise itself isn't strong.

The only counterargument to this point is "it's literal just because".

2. KingTempest brought up some anti-feats regarding the same energy attack / technique performed by the same character. It resembles the aforementioned technique in almost every way, be it the color, the star shaped pattern, the impact crater, vaporization effect, etc. It even has the same base name, with only an extra word. Similar attack in every way, yet it bends and has different speed, which destroys the notion of it being real light.

The counterargument for this point is that an addition of a word in the base name makes it different. No, it just makes it a powered up version, it doesn't make it an entirely different attack with entirely different mechanics when there are so many similarities between the two directly shown to us.

Also, it behaving differently (in the sense of direction and speed) is the entire point of the anti-feat. The same point that is being refuted by bringing up the anti-feat cannot be used to counter the anti-feat. That's circular logic. "This similar attack is working differently in given manner" is not countered by "since it is working differently in given manner, it is not a similar attack".

The revision of light standards do not address these issues. So I am still in disagreement.
 
Just to debunk point 2 real quick, that’s an entire separate technique, just cuz it’s blue like every other Quincy attack doesn’t make it the same technique. So it’s not relevant to Mask’s beam of light attack.
 
AKM sama said:
The counterargument for this point is that an addition of a word in the base name makes it different. No, it just makes it a powered up version, it doesn't make it an entirely different attack with entirely different mechanics when there are so many similarities between the two directly shown to us.
Click to expand...
Can you show these "many" similarities please?

And it goes beyond just a powered up version when again, the abilities behave completely different;
  • Mask doesn't fly around drawing a star in the sky to perform Star Flash
  • Star Flash doesn't have variable speeds
  • Star Flash isn't shown bending ever
  • Star Flash isn't a continuous huge Reishi nuke, it's a beam of light.
So I'm real curious how you came to the conclusion that there are "so many similarities" when the only ones I can see are that they both visually look like blue glowy energy, and they're both comprised of Reishi, the first point being something that describes literally every Quincy attack ever, and the second point being something that describes virtually every attack in Bleach.
 
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AKM sama said:
This again.

To recapitulate my main issues:

1. The statement used to justify it being light is as follows:

"The villain shall die... by the hero's beam of light"

Notice the use of extravagant language here. The villain, the hero, the hero's light. This could be easily interpreted as being symbolic and used for hype alone. This isn't stated as some matter-of-fact thing. This is literally a "hero" telling a "villain" (associated with "darkness") that he will be defeated by his "light". If it would have been something like "beam made of light", it would have been much more matter-of-fact.

This sentence has the same energy as "the villain shall be defeated by the hero's punch of justice". It's not meant to be taken literally. The idea that this is light speed should be rejected due to this point alone, as the premise itself isn't strong.

The only counterargument to this point is "it's literal just because".

2. KingTempest brought up some anti-feats regarding the same energy attack / technique performed by the same character. It resembles the aforementioned technique in almost every way, be it the color, the star shaped pattern, the impact crater, vaporization effect, etc. It even has the same base name, with only an extra word. Similar attack in every way, yet it bends and has different speed, which destroys the notion of it being real light.

The counterargument for this point is that an addition of a word in the base name makes it different. No, it just makes it a powered up version, it doesn't make it an entirely different attack with entirely different mechanics when there are so many similarities between the two directly shown to us.

Also, it behaving differently (in the sense of direction and speed) is the entire point of the anti-feat. The same point that is being refuted by bringing up the anti-feat cannot be used to counter the anti-feat. That's circular logic. "This similar attack is working differently in given manner" is not countered by "since it is working differently in given manner, it is not a similar attack".

The revision of light standards do not address these issues. So I am still in disagreement.
Click to expand...
Mask doesn't exaggerate about his attacks. He does say star at the beginning of his attacks but that's just the name. he adds to it. For example "star hea" butt is an actual head butt,Star eagle kick is an aerial kick. Star rocket head butt is him lunching himself at high speed doing a head butt. Star Flash an actual flash/beam of light. Mask calling himself a hero is not a debunk. He clearly says it's a beam of light coming from the hero which is him. Also considering most qunicy can create light it's not far fetched to say it is light.
 
AKM sama said:
This again.

To recapitulate my main issues:

1. The statement used to justify it being light is as follows:

"The villain shall die... by the hero's beam of light"

Notice the use of extravagant language here. The villain, the hero, the hero's light. This could be easily interpreted as being symbolic and used for hype alone. This isn't stated as some matter-of-fact thing. This is literally a "hero" telling a "villain" (associated with "darkness") that he will be defeated by his "light". If it would have been something like "beam made of light", it would have been much more matter-of-fact.

This sentence has the same energy as "the villain shall be defeated by the hero's punch of justice". It's not meant to be taken literally. The idea that this is light speed should be rejected due to this point alone, as the premise itself isn't strong.

The only counterargument to this point is "it's literal just because".

2. KingTempest brought up some anti-feats regarding the same energy attack / technique performed by the same character. It resembles the aforementioned technique in almost every way, be it the color, the star shaped pattern, the impact crater, vaporization effect, etc. It even has the same base name, with only an extra word. Similar attack in every way, yet it bends and has different speed, which destroys the notion of it being real light.

The counterargument for this point is that an addition of a word in the base name makes it different. No, it just makes it a powered up version, it doesn't make it an entirely different attack with entirely different mechanics when there are so many similarities between the two directly shown to us.

Also, it behaving differently (in the sense of direction and speed) is the entire point of the anti-feat. The same point that is being refuted by bringing up the anti-feat cannot be used to counter the anti-feat. That's circular logic. "This similar attack is working differently in given manner" is not countered by "since it is working differently in given manner, it is not a similar attack".

The revision of light standards do not address these issues. So I am still in disagreement.
Click to expand...
i agree with this
 
Aren't attacks have different names, slightly different look and used by different people no? How tf are they the same
 
There is precedent in Bleach for attacks being "made of light" and not being anything like lightspeed, so the burden of evidence need to be a bit better in my books.

The attack "reflecting" off of the blade is a questionable property since we don't see the beam itself actually going anywhere else in a cohesive path, or see it striking some other target. It seemingly just hits Renji's blade and stops there. Cyber did a breakdown of it in the previous thread here. To some people, I'm sure that what's been presented is more than enough for saying it reflected, but the fact that we don't see the beam itself go anywhere else puts some doubt in it for me.

So even if I accept Mask describing his Star Flash as a "beam of light" as a solid requirement, that's only one solid requirement from my perspective and not enough for the requirements page.

Personally I would say that this could be a case where we need more information; an anime adaptation could expand on the scene to make it clear where or not the attack should be treated as lightspeed or not. We're already waiting on the anime for a few other controversial points for Bleach, so waiting for more information on this before going through a massive revision seems best to me as a compromise.

Considering the attacks have separate names…
Click to expand...

It's an expansion on the original name.
 
Damage3245 said:
It's an expansion on the original name.
Click to expand...
By that logic all irl missiles are the same because they are all “missiles”.

Separate name = separate attack. Nothing proves it’s the same attack.


Damage3245 said:
The attack "reflecting" off of the blade is a questionable property since we don't see the beam itself actually going anywhere else in a cohesive path, or see it striking some other target. It seemingly just hits Renji's blade and stops there. Cyber did a breakdown of it in the previous thread here. To some people, I'm sure that what's been presented is more than enough for saying it reflected, but the fact that we don't see the beam itself go anywhere else puts some doubt in it for me.
Click to expand...
It reflects, the perspective we are shown is a funky perspective sure, but it reflects nonetheless.
 
Damage3245 said:
There is precedent in Bleach for attacks being "made of light" and not being anything like lightspeed, so the burden of evidence need to be a bit better in my books.

The attack "reflecting" off of the blade is a questionable property since we don't see the beam itself actually going anywhere else in a cohesive path, or see it striking some other target. It seemingly just hits Renji's blade and stops there. Cyber did a breakdown of it in the previous thread here. To some people, I'm sure that what's been presented is more than enough for saying it reflected, but the fact that we don't see the beam itself go anywhere else puts some doubt in it for me.

So even if I accept Mask describing his Star Flash as a "beam of light" as a solid requirement, that's only one solid requirement from my perspective and not enough for the requirements page.

Personally I would say that this could be a case where we need more information; an anime adaptation could expand on the scene to make it clear where or not the attack should be treated as lightspeed or not. We're already waiting on the anime for a few other controversial points for Bleach, so waiting for more information on this before going through a massive revision seems best to me as a compromise.



It's an expansion on the original name.
Click to expand...
I didn’t see any energy beam from his Star Kick or Star Punch. But is nice that you accept the “made of light” statements as an argument.
 
Damage3245 said:
There is precedent in Bleach for attacks being "made of light" and not being anything like lightspeed, so the burden of evidence need to be a bit better in my books.

The attack "reflecting" off of the blade is a questionable property since we don't see the beam itself actually going anywhere else in a cohesive path, or see it striking some other target. It seemingly just hits Renji's blade and stops there. Cyber did a breakdown of it in the previous thread here. To some people, I'm sure that what's been presented is more than enough for saying it reflected, but the fact that we don't see the beam itself go anywhere else puts some doubt in it for me.

So even if I accept Mask describing his Star Flash as a "beam of light" as a solid requirement, that's only one solid requirement from my perspective and not enough for the requirements page.

Personally I would say that this could be a case where we need more information; an anime adaptation could expand on the scene to make it clear where or not the attack should be treated as lightspeed or not. We're already waiting on the anime for a few other controversial points for Bleach, so waiting for more information on this before going through a massive revision seems best to me as a compromise.



It's an expansion on the original name.
Click to expand...
Damage …….. Cyber had a whole CRT made using that reflection and his breakdown of it as the basis and everyone who came on that thread unanimously agreed that his breakdown was absurdly strict and that it would stop literally all feats with reflections from qualifying since it isn’t perfect.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
Damage …….. Cyber had a whole CRT made using that reflection and his breakdown of it as the basis and everyone who came on that thread unanimously agreed that his breakdown was absurdly strict and that it would stop literally all feats with reflections from qualifying since it isn’t perfect.
Click to expand...
I deadass talked with Cyber in dms about that too oh so long ago, and after a lengthy deliberation he was like "yeah I was being a headass, that should be treated as reflection".

Hell Cyber made this thread and deadass said in the OP "it satisfies the made of light and reflect requirements".
 
@Arc7Kuroi; just because a person making an argument changes their mind doesn't mean that everyone else who agreed with the argument should also switch as well.
 
That's not my intention. But regardless,
Damage3245 said:
To some people, I'm sure that what's been presented is more than enough for saying it reflected, but the fact that we don't see the beam itself go anywhere else puts some doubt in it for me.
Click to expand...
We do see it go off in other directions after it's reflected, that's how we know it reflected in the first place...
 
Damage3245 said:
@Arc7Kuroi; just because a person making an argument changes their mind doesn't mean that everyone else who agreed with the argument should also switch as well.
Click to expand...
Why does the direction matter? It's not even in the qualification for light speed beams.
it can go to another dimension, it doesn't matter
What matters is that it got reflected
 
Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye said:
Doesn't Mask say the attack was diverted?
Click to expand...
23.png

Turning aside = cause someone or something to deviate in the direction; direct, avert or deflect someone or something on another course; veer or move away; change position.
Source: theidioms.com

Visual confirmation + auditory confirmation that Renji's Zabimaru deflected Mask's Star Flash = satisfies reflection requirement
Star Flash is a beam of light = satisfies made of light requirement
Two requirements satisfied = light speed laser
 
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I'll translate Mask's raw statement here if it's needed to convince people it got deflected.
 
Yeah "star flash" and "star flash supernova" are different attacks.

Star Flash-is stated be just a beam of light. Fires in a straight line.

Star Flash Supernova:Mask has to giant star with his reshi cape. Then fire star flash supernova through it as a medium. The attack then expands coving a city block. Also it has supernova at the end of it's name which suggest it explodes. It's not a literal star but it's just a giant star shaped light exploding.


So yeah their fired through different mediums and one expands. But if you wanna argue the star he made with his cape is part of star flash supernova. Then that's another huge difference. Saying their the same color isn't a argument and cuz it has flash in it's name isn't valid either. You would have to ignore the other part of it's name "supernova".
 
Sigh it is not even worth arguing, the said star flash




while the star flash supernova


you can zoom in for a better view

they are both star shaped, and from the same character, and even has the same base name with one saying one is an attack on a larger scale.
and yes one will indeed be more powerful than the other as it was performed in his vollstandin state, as far as bleach is concerned, vollstanding makes quincy and their attacks more powerful and faster (Chapter 556, pg 7 -9) and also makes them more powerful (Chapter 563 pg 13 - 15).

so what is the argument that they are made from different properties despite everything saying they are inherently the same? "One has Supernova in the name but one does not" That is being intellectually dishonest nothing more.
 
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Zoomed in as far as I could and can confirm it’s 100% coming from his wings not his forehead

also not a good point on the star over his head because I’m pretty sure every Quincy gets one when they enter vollstandig. Could be wrong but Quilge is a good example
 
Pain_to12 said:
How did you miss the point?
The Light from the wing you claim is from his head, forms a wing and uses it to draw a star shaped sign for his technique, unless he can form different properties of light in his head then no it was the same property that formed star flash that did this too.

Edit: Let me Edit my post cause you know people tend to see what they want to see
Click to expand...
The light from his wing is from his head dude what? The light from his wing is from his wing man lol. Imma read the fight again because it’s been a while and for all I know you could be right
 
You are aware of what Vollstandig does right? It gives you Pentagram halo and a pair of wings. They are two separate things.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
You are aware of what Vollstandig does right? It gives you Pentagram halo and a pair of wings. They are two separate things.
Click to expand...
That’s what I was trying to tell him. I just did a quick read through on chapters I know they show vollstandig and I can confirm that at least Quilge, Candice, and Bazz B all have the halo above their heads. Factor that in with Mask’s star flash supernova coming completely from his wings and his points are debunked
 
SilentBob34 said:
The light from his wing is from his head dude what? The light from his wing is from his wing man lol. Imma read the fight again because it’s been a while and for all I know you could be right
Click to expand...
Nah you are right, i just read the fight again, but then i got new things, i will update my original post now
 
And here I am thinking why we talking about another attack technic that has nothing to do with the one being mention on this CTR, seems like a way to deviate from the topic at hand, might as well mention all attacks he does like the headbutt since it seems people just want to mention attacks that have nothing to do with star flash to try and "debunk" it.
 
That's like saying kamehameha, super kamehameha and bending kamehameha are all different attacks just because they are used differently. Star Flash and Star Flash Supernova are both fired by the same character, has the same color, the same impact shape and effect, the latter is just a different upgraded version of the same attack, that's apparent by the name itself.

Even if you argue that since there are some dissimilarities in both of them, which is okay, that still doesn't take away from the problem of the statement not being matter of fact. In the thread made about light standards previously, it was clearly explained that the fourth standard should definitely suggest that the attack is made of photons/composed of light, from a reliable source. "Beam of light" is such a common statement that it needs to be coming from a reliable source in a reliable manner. If a scientist claimed "this energy ray transmitted from this weapon is a beam of light" then that would have been an acceptable case.

A character going "The villain shall be defeated by a hero's beam of light" is not an acceptable case. You can argue about it all year long and the statement would still not be a reliable one because of the way it is delivered.
 
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