Bleach: Renji and Mask

[Arkenis]

@Arc7Kuroi; just because a person making an argument changes their mind doesn't mean that everyone else who agreed with the argument should also switch as well.

It shows how faulty the argument was though and why it didn't actually fit for most light based attacks

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

That's like saying kamehameha, super kamehameha and bending kamehameha are all different attacks just because they are used differently. Star Flash and Star Flash Supernova are both fired by the same character, has the same color, the same impact shape and effect, the latter is just a different upgraded version of the same attack, that's apparent by the name itself.

Even if you argue that since there are some dissimilarities in both of them, which is okay, that still doesn't take away from the problem of the statement not being matter of fact. In the thread made about light standards previously, it was clearly explained that the fourth standard should definitely suggest that the attack is made of photons/composed of light, from a reliable source. "Beam of light" is such a common statement that it needs to be coming from a reliable source in a reliable manner. If a scientist claimed "this energy ray transmitted from this weapon is a beam of light" then that would have been an acceptable case.

A character going "The villain shall be defeated by a hero's beam of light" is not an acceptable case. You can argue about it all year long and the statement would still not be a reliable one because of the way it is delivered.

False equivalence with the kamehameha, in Bleach attack names have significant meaning, and the properties of an attack can be drastically different depending on if you call it by it’s true name or not. So the fact they have different names does in fact indicate they’re separate attacks.

Edit: I really don’t like this dance of “I’ll give you it’s made of light, but you can’t prove it was reflected”, then we prove it was reflected just to read, “I’ll give you it was reflected, but you can’t prove it was made of light”. You don’t concede a point just to go back on the concession, that’s not how this works.

 

[AKM sama]

in Bleach attack names have significant meaning

"Star Flash"
Please explain the meaning of this attack name to me and how it all works with what the attack does?

"Star Flash Supernova"
Please do the same for this. How does the attack name have significant meaning? I really don't see it. Is it related to Star? 4-C? Supernova? 4-C? What's the significant meaning that you're getting from this attack name?

That point makes absolutely no sense. Like I said, the argument you're trying to make that the attack name is slightly modified, and it functions differently, is very much okay argument to make, yes. At the same time, the argument that only a word added to a base attack which has similarities and would imply that it's just an upgraded version, is also equally good argument to make for the other side.

And no, I am not going back on my word. From the first viewing of this topic, I have repeatedly voiced my concerns about how the statement is not delivered in a matter-of-fact way. Extravagant use of language when it was delivered indicates it's not meant to be taken literally, but symbolically. The statement has been delivered, and it's not a reliable one, and nothing is going to change that until we have new evidence. We can go back and forth according to how "oh this makes complete sense, it's totally meant literally, the character is very reliable yada yada" and "insert opposite argument here", it's not going to change.

So that will probably be my final comment on this thread. Still disagree. Recent changes have not alleviated the issues present here, which were also brought up in the last thread, so it's more or less like a pointless repeat.

 

[Zoro21043]

arc isn't saying star flash itself has a significant meaning
but names in bleach affect the attacks a lot if altered a bit

like yumichikia's Fuji Kujaku has no special ability (false name of his shikai)
while his Ruri'iro Kujaku (true name) lets him absorb the reiatsu of his opponent, it acts like a completely different zanpakuto

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Never did I once say apply the name literally. That’s a name association fallacy. What Zoro said sums it up perfectly, even techniques/abilities/weapons can function drastically differently depending on the name.

Yumichika’s Zanpakuto gains a whole ass new ability when called by its real name.

Renji’s Bankai completely changes forms and gets new abilities when called by it’s true name.

Byakuya has numerous named techniques that despite just being his petals arranged in shapes can hit massively above his normal weight class because they have unique names.

Star Flash and Star Flash Supernova are inherently different techniques because they are separate named techniques within Bleach.

And regardless Star Flash Supernova is not an anti feat for Star Flash. One is a beam technique the other is a movement technique that summons a massive exploding laser.

Stop comparing separate attacks, because by your logic then any laser in Bleach is light speed because it “looks like Star Flash”, every attack on Bleach must be of equal power while we are at it because everyone uses spiritual energy to battle.

Your “naming techniques doesn’t mean anything” argument is a blatant admission to your lack of understanding of the source material.

 

[Reio35]

This is like saying rasengan and rasenshuriken are the same attack.

Saying mask isn't a credible source for calling himself a hero and renji a villain is pretty ridiculous. Considering most Quincy consider soul reapers evil. Pretty much all Quincy can control light stated by Kisuke a scientist. So mask firing a beam of light is reasonable. It looks and behaves like one. Saying it isn't cuz the way he said it is being dishonest

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Regarding Mask’s credibility with his own attacks, two things:

1) Mask more likely than not knows the properties of his own attacks considering he’s 100s to 1000s of years old and has had plenty of time to familiarize himself with his own techniques.

2) Yhwach keeps detailed “daten” on all his Sternritters’ abilities and we even see that he distributes said “daten” to his Sternritter. So Mask also has his own little databook on his Quincy abilities straight from the boss man Yhwach.

 

[PrinceofPein]

This is like saying rasengan and rasenshuriken are the same attack.

Bad example since the entire point is the two are inherently the same

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Bad example since the entire point is the two are inherently the same

Rasengan and Rasenshuriken are not inherently the same, one is an orb of swirling chakra, the other is an orb of swirling chakra with wind release applied to it. By default of one having a component the other lacks means they’re inherently different.

Albeit this is sort of unrelated to the topic at hand, since naming specifically in Bleach functions differently than most series.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Rasengan and Rasenshuriken are not inherently the same, one is an orb of swirling chakra, the other is an orb of swirling chakra with wind release applied to it. By default of one having a component the other lacks means they’re inherently different.

Actually they are the same, just that one has wind added to it and can be thrown.
Same with mask, one is done with his vollstandin powers and on a larger scale

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Actually they are the same, just that one has wind added to it and can be thrown.
Same with mask, one is done with his vollstandin powers and on a larger scale

You know by saying one has wind added to it means they’re inherently different right?

You’re actually saying that 1+1 = 1, rasengan + wind =/= rasengan.

And no Star Flash and Star Flash Supernova are not the same, read the series.

 

[Purgy]

Star Flash and Star Flash Supernova quite literally have zero similarities that aren't;

• Similar names
• Both are attacks used by Mask
• Look like blue glowy energy
• Made of Reishi

Out of all of these, only the first point is actually decent and it's already been sort of debunked.

The second point is frankly, a joke, like, I'm now sure how you consider that a valid similarity.

The third and fourth point I already went over, the third describing virtually every Quincy attack that exists and the fourth describes virtually every attack in Bleach.

They have far more differences than they do similarities.

 

[Teezar]

Arc and purgy make sense to me.

 

[Orange]

Actually they are the same, just that one has wind added to it and can be thrown.
Same with mask, one is done with his vollstandin powers and on a larger scale

They aren't the same, the fact that one has wind release in it proves it isn't the same, rasen shuriken targets your cells, is bigger, requires time, has wind release, and it was hurting naruto's when using it.
But I guess they are totally the same when the similarities is that they are made from chakra, called rasengan. That it

 

[Orange]

You know just one difference makes two things not the same
Because if they are the same, they wouldn't have that difference
That's like saying apple and oranges are the same because they are fruit, grows on trees and you need to peel them off to eat them

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

You peel your oranges? Weirdo

 

[Orange]

You peel your oranges? Weirdo

No, I ate them raw! I put orange juice on my wounds, get on my level

 

[Purgy]

At this point I feel the strongest (and really only) argument against this CRT is what AKM Sama keeps bringing up, in that, he doesn't think "beam of light" should be taken literally due to how Mask says it.

I feel like this is just arguing semantics and I don't see how you can even prove otherwise for this, it's literally just an interpretation that can't be argued against to be honest.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Well, it’s be undeniably proven that Mask’s beam of light was reflected. That’s one requirement.

There exists two strong pieces of evidence pointing to the validity of “beam of light”: Mask has had 100s if not 1000s of years to familiarize himself with his technique and Yhwach keeps a detailed data sheet on the Sternritter abilities. Whereas there is one argument against it, which is much more speculative: “maybe Mask is being extra”. However, the fact that the beam has no anti-feats and acts like light (straight lines, heat/vaporizing, reflects off reflective surfaces) all seem to add validity to “beam of light”.

Then the use of a separate technique to debunk his beam of light has been thoroughly debunked.

The attack meets the LS requirements and isn’t contradicted, simple as that.

 

[PrinceofPein]

You know by saying one has wind added to it means they’re inherently different right?

You’re actually saying that 1+1 = 1, rasengan + wind =/= rasengan.

And no Star Flash and Star Flash Supernova are not the same, read the series.

You know I used the word "inherent"
For you know when things have same characteristics in this case the basis for the same attack are the same

 

[Orange]

But doesn't it follow the qualification?
1- it was stated to be a beam of ligh
2- it doesn't bend like some girls
3- it reflects of surfaces
4- it leaves some trail of smoke and some burned Marks
No?

 

[Orange]

You know I used the word "inherent"
For you know when things have same characteristics in this case the basis for the same attack are the same

But the attacks are literally different tho-

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

A heroes beam of light to destroy the villain

A heroes (mask) beam of light to destroy the villain (renji)

That's all that sentence means

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

You know I used the word "inherent"
For you know when things have same characteristics in this case the basis for the same attack are the same

Inherently the same means that there are inherently no differences, which has been debunked, move on.

Regardless, SF Supernova and SF being the same attack with the same properties is directly debunked. As they have provably separate qualities and you cannot prove they act the same, but I can prove they act different.

 

[Orange]

I mean these is a good way to disprove that they are different.
1- different names in bleach can make attacks have different attributes.
2- if they are the same, why they ahev different activations AND DIFFERENT NAMES

 

[Purgy]

To be honest, isn't the evidence presented here at least enough to warrant a possibly/likely?

There's quite a bit of evidence in favor of it being light speed, it arguably meets two of the requirements with several supporting pieces and no antifeats.

 

[Teezar]

Inherently the same means that there are inherently no differences, which has been debunked, move on.

Regardless, SF Supernova and SF being the same attack with the same properties is directly debunked. As they have provably separate qualities and you cannot prove they act the same, but I can prove they act different.

You've earned my respect bruh. You can add yourself to the knowledge members on bleach Here.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Personally, I think such a compromise is unnecessary. The arguments against it are very head-canon-like and too heavy on assumptions in nature. But considering this is Bleach and this is vsbw, I’d take it.

 

[Orange]

No, it does warrant "likely/possibly " it meets four of the qualifications for the speed of light, with no anti feats, and the argument against it are either lacking or require too much assumptions with no relevant evidence.
It meets four requirements
It has no anti feats
And no logical debunked were presented
It's either full on light speed or we are just downplaying it for the sake of "compromising " which is as bad as the arguments against the upgrade

 

[KingTempest]

Bro it's like every time yall take a Naruto example in a bleach thread, you deliberately use it wrong.

I already debunked that point when Reio said it in the last thread.

2. Not the exact same attack one is "star flash" The other is "star flash super nova" thats like saying rasnagan and rasnsnshirkin are the something. We know they both have diffrent properties

Wrong technique. Rasenshuriken adds a completely foreign nature, all this does is add size.
A better example would be Rasengan and Big Ball Rasengan. All it does is bring size, just like this technique.

Stop using Naruto examples in a bleach thread when it's wrong.

 

[Purgy]

Bro it's like every time yall take a Naruto example in a bleach thread, you deliberately use it wrong.

I already debunked that point when Reio said it in the last thread.



Stop using Naruto examples in a bleach thread when it's wrong.

I mean to be fair, AKM Sama is the one that started the comparisons with other verses abilities in this thread.

His Kamehameha example is just as equally as wrong.

 

[KingTempest]

I mean to be fair, AKM Sama is the one that started the comparisons with other verses abilities in this thread.

His Kamehameha example is just as equally as wrong.

The Kamehameha example was wrong but it was far better than this one.
The Kamehameha example was failing to understand the significance of names in Bleach.
The Rasenshuriken example was attempting to correlate 2 completely different techniques which have minimal correlation to each other.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Correlating SF and SF Supernova is also correlating two techniques which have minimal correlation to each other. They act entirely separate.

Tempest the point was two fold: similar names =/= same technique (having SF in both names or Rasen in both names for example), and naming in Bleach as a whole.

 

[Purgy]

The Rasenshuriken example was attempting to correlate 2 completely different techniques which have minimal correlation to each other.

Except Star Flash and Star Flash Supernova have minimal correlation to each other, the only real similarity they share is their name.

Ones a huge continuous Reishi nuke that is shown to bend and have variable speeds and requires Mask to fly around drawing a star in the sky, the others a straight single fired beam that is never shown bending or changing speed and is referred to as a beam of light.

Star Flash is just as different when compared to Star Flash Supernova as Rasengan is when compared to Rasenshuriken.

Just to reaffirm my stance, I think a possibly or likely is fair here, there is clear evidence in favor of it being speed of light and the only real antifeats you can slap onto it are Star Flash Supernova's which as I've clearly said at this point, is faulty and takes a far bigger leap in logic than just assuming they're different abilities as oppose to the same ability at different power.

 

[Orange]

So one technique doesn't bend, fired form his head, travels into a straight path and leaves trail of smoke/vaporisation
The other is a nuke, requires the user to fly and create star shaped thingie.
Yup totally the same even after the name, application , usage and the requirements to preform are vastly different. But hey they have nova and blue, they must totally be the same!

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I don't get the issue with how mask talks. He says he (the hero) will kill said villain(shinigami) with his beam of light. This is pretty straightforward.

You're making this simple sentence sound like he's saying these...

1. Light of god
2. Divine light
3. Light of justice

 

[AKM sama]

Personally, I think such a compromise is unnecessary.

You're right. Nothing has changed since the last thread. So this won't be accepted.

Lasers/light beams are only accepted as real if they meet, at a minimum, a few of these criteria:

• The beam refracts in a new material, such as a liquid or...
• The beam diffuses in a reasonably realistic way or reflects off a material that it can be expected to, such as a non-magical mirror.
• The beam is called lightspeed by reliable sources.
• It is stated to be composed/consisting of photons or light itself, again by a reliable source.
• It has its origin at a realistic source of light, such as a camera.

Just being called beam of light or light beam in a non-matter-of-fact way is not enough and the first sentence of the standards already takes into account that whatever the thing is being talked about, it is a light beam. From there, it needs to fulfill those conditions. The fourth requirement goes into detail about how "consisting of light/photons" has to be something reliable and clear (this was made clear in the previous thread about standards too). "Beam of light" is just the beginning from where the requirements start, that's not one of the requirements, until it was stated in a matter-of-fact way that satisfies the fourth requirement.

I'll quote DT on the matter since he summed it up perfectly:

I mean, that's ok I guess, although it weighs much less in favour of it than a scientific description such as "consists of photons".
One also needs to consider that the statement needs to be reliable, which in case of such a description is more of an issue. A random person might describe any glowing energy beam as a "beam of light", as that's their subjective impression of it and what's the closest thing they know to what they have witnessed, not because they know what it actually is and are trying to give an accurate description.

Again, this is not going to be accepted, and I kindly ask you all to stop bringing it up. If that's not possible, we may need to make a discussion rule at this point.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It is stated to be composed/consisting of photons or light itself, again by a reliable source.

Regarding Mask’s credibility with his own attacks, two things:

1) Mask more likely than not knows the properties of his own attacks considering he’s 100s to 1000s of years old and has had plenty of time to familiarize himself with his own techniques.

2) Yhwach keeps detailed “daten” on all his Sternritters’ abilities and we even see that he distributes said “daten” to his Sternritter. So Mask also has his own little databook on his Quincy abilities straight from the boss man Yhwach.

I'd argue that someone who's had numerous human lifetimes to familiarize themselves with their technique plus data on their techniques from a nigh-omniscient god, warrants validity for their claim from a reliable source.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Again, this is not going to be accepted, and I kindly ask you all to stop bringing it up. If that's not possible, we may need to make a discussion rule at this point.

Huh? We have two staff agreements in this thread and two staff disagreements. It's an even tie right now lmao.

 

[Purgy]

Nothing has changed since the last thread

You don't consider half the people participating in this thread literally tearing apart your paper thin argument about how Star Flash and Star Flash Supernova have "so many similarities" a change?

Seems like a pretty major change to me considering that was one of the primary reasons the speed of light rating was removed in the first place aside from your whole "Mask wasn't being literal when he said beam of light" argument.

Just being called beam of light or light beam in a non-matter-of-fact way is not enough and the first sentence of the standards already takes into account that whatever the thing is being talked about, it is a light beam. From there, it needs to fulfill those conditions. The fourth requirement goes into detail about how "consisting of light/photons" has to be something reliable and clear (this was made clear in the previous thread about standards too). "Beam of light" is just the beginning from where the requirements start, that's not one of the requirements, until it was stated in a matter-of-fact way that satisfies the fourth requirement.

I'm not even sure what your issue is here since you yourself said "beam of light" is fine.

Beam/ray of light is okay. But not "everything" of light. There are several attacks that are just called "flash of light" which doesn't tell us what the attack is made of, it's more so referring to how the attack shines brightly. -AKM Sama Light Speed Qualifications thread

You're just arguing for a faulty interpretation of what Mask said, the "beam of light" part was clearly literal but you're trying to twist it into a figure of speech, are you arguing that you know more about the technique than the person that created it?

Again, this is not going to be accepted, and I kindly ask you all to stop bringing it up. If that's not possible, we may need to make a discussion rule at this point.

A discussion rule for one rejected CRT? Great job blowing this way out of proportion, meanwhile Bleach gets half a dozen rehashed Seireitei failed revision threads and only then does a discussion rule get made, and here you are threatening a discussion rule for something that was;

• Already accepted in the past by many knowledgeable staff members
• The OP of the downgrade thread admitted he was wrong
• Hasn't actually had any failed CRT's except for this one if you consider it that

This topic doesn't even get frequently brought up so a discussion rule is clearly excessive, you've also still yet to actually defend your stance on the two attacks sharing "so many similarities". They have far more differences than they do similarities.

Also, as Arc said, the votes are actually neutral at the moment, only you and Damage have expressed clear disagreement in this thread.