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Bleach - accepting Memories of Nobody as canon

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Matthew Schroeder said:
Kubo is just saying that you should check the movie. It's a reference, nothing more.
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Why would he have people use non-canon information as reference? Isn't that like me saying "If you want to see what Goku and Superman would look like if they fused, see dbZkids040 fanfiction "goku v.s supermaan" for more information."

If it's non-canon it means not accurate and not acknowledged in verse. Why reference something not accurate and not acknowledged?
 
Hst master said:
@Matt
He didn't work on the movie much, it was the novel he worked on with alongside Co-Author Makoto Matsubara; Who he also Co-Authored with for the other novels, the explanation comes from the novel
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Cool, but as I pointed out before repeatedly:

  • 1) The novel is untranslated. You can't use something like that for feats when you have no idea what happens in it. It could differ heavily from the movie for all we know.
  • 2) The novel is a promotional Novelization. Like, those are the most common thing ever for movies. They are only canon if stated, such as with Star Wars.
 
There he goes calling peoples arguments headcanon again.

This isn't Naruto but Bleach,you keep referring to the Blood Prison movie when it doesn't even line up with the canon.

naruto has sage mode, but this was "before" pain assaulted konoha, but naruto only learned sage mode in the week before he fought pain.

naruto knows killer B, despite him not meeting killer B until the Turtle Island training(during the war)

also, the cloak always summons when he uses sage mode, despite that not happening in the series.

the village the prison is in, is said to be from the Sot6P time, yet the first ninja village was the leaf village at the creation of Hashirama and madara, with the other Ninja villages following suit.

Someone else stated this,and it also involves Zero Tails which can't exist.instead of trying to generalize every form of media to your standard,you need to look at it case by case.

Memories of Nobody on the other hand was in the manga,and fits within the timeline it takes place.
 
ProfessorLord said:
Why would he have people use non-canon information as reference? Isn't that like me saying "If you want to see what Goku and Superman would look like if they fused, see dbZkids040 fanfiction "goku v.s supermaan" for more information."

If it's non-canon it means not accurate and not acknowledged in verse. Why reference something not accurate and not acknowledged?
Click to expand...
The point flew over your head, agai. The Valley of Screams isn't canon because it was put in the manga. The movie is non-canon as nothing indicates it is. Just speculation from fans based on a quote of Kubo telling the readers to watch it.

The fanfiction comparison is a hilarious false equivalency.
 
Hst master said:
@Matt
He didn't work on the movie much, it was the novel he worked on with alongside Co-Author Makoto Matsubara; Who he also Co-Authored with for the other novels, the explanation comes from the novel

@Astral

Didn't see your commemt there, the blood prison op is mentioned in Kakashi Gaiden iirc happening b4 Shippuden
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i thought that was mentioned in Kakashi Hinden Lightning in the Sky which it was lol. There isnt any Kakashi Gaiden unless you mean his side story Boys on the Battlefield?? You cant tho since i dont ever remember that being mentioned in there and Kakashi Hinden happened after the 4th War and before The Last
 
WoG is saying to watch something to learn more about something in his work, this means he treats that thing as canon to his work as it holds canon information on his work.
 
@Frantzy

That's what your argument is. You say "It can fit", so you assert that '"It must fit'". That is not only fallacious, but also fan speculation. Not confirmed fact.

It is the exact same situation. An element from a non-canon work becoming canonical don't make the whole non-canon work canon. Miss Pizza and Gregory are in Super, that doesn't make the whole Toei Anime Canon.

A bunch of Dragon Ball movies fit perfectly. Cooler, Broly, Bojack... None of them are canon.
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
WoG is saying to watch something to learn more about something in his work, this means he treats that thing as canon to his work as it holds canon information on his work.
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No it doesn't. That's your interpretation. Toriyama and Kishimoto have mentioned DBZ and Naruto movies in their notes at the end of volumes, that doesn't make them canon. He used the concept from the movie and says it's from the movie. That's it.

Show me a conclusive, definitive statement that it is canon. There is none.
 
As Frantzy pointed out, stop using Naruto's Blood Prison. It's a false equivalency. Unlike Memories of Nobody for Bleach, Blood Prison doesn't fit into the Naruto timeline.
 
Except we know all DBZ movies are alternate dimensions.So ofc it isn't.

In an interview collected in the sixth Daizenshuu volume, Toriyama was asked what his personal stance was on his franchise's theatrical features. Here is what the artist had to say:

"I take the movies as "stories in a different dimension from the main story of the comic". I'm entirely just an audience member for them," Toriyama said.
 
@Astral

I mean the operation itself happening before Shippuden, not the light novel, Got the names of the arc and light novel mixed up lol.
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
As Frantzy pointed out, stop using Naruto's Blood Prison. It's a false equivalency. Unlike Memories of Nobody for Bleach, Blood Prison doesn't fit into the Naruto timeline.
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Okay, and? Both cases are examples of non-canon elements being made Canon. Neither is a case of the whole movie being made Canon. Seriously.
 
Frantzy12 said:
In an interview collected in the sixth Daizenshuu volume, Toriyama was asked what his personal stance was on his franchise's theatrical features. Here is what the artist had to say:
Click to expand...
This is debunked with Cooler Cameo in GT and Hirudegarn Movie being the explanation for Trunks' Sword in GT. Toei considered at least some movies canon for the anime.
 
So why would he write a manga about a movie that isn't canon unless he personally considered it so? You going to blame it on authors head-canon next, Matt?

You think he'd clarify that it was extended canon if he really didn't want people to mistake the manga as being canon to the main series, or some objection at all

Furthermore you'd expect some degree of contradiction in the main series when it comes to the movie, but they actually line up and compliment each other nicely.

I agree that this seems to be an open and shut case of the author clearly vocalizing his intent (via creating the manga and using the movie as reference to the main series) on having the manga/movie to be canon and complimentary to the main series. The issue is whether or not the author has any say over their own series, which is ******** to me.
 
Also, you need to understand the basic concept of Burden of Proof. You need to prove its Canon, not the other way around.

The argumentative reasoning right now is something like:

"This could be considered canon"

"Therefore it must be!"

This is a leap in logic. There is nothing conclusively pointing to Memories of Nobody's canonicity. All there is is a reference in one panel.
 
Who cares, the writer doesn't view it as canon to his manga. it's a direct quote from an interview Toriyama states himself.

@Everlasting

The point is Ichigo has been there to valley of screams that was only in the movie,the fact that he has been there makes in canon.Were even told to check it for more infromation as to why Ichigo was there.
 
Toei isn't Toriyama, and I fail to see how any of these examples are relevant. MoN doesn't outright contradict the manga, unlike most of the DB/Naruto movies, so I don't get why the default assumptio is that it's non-canon.
 
I lean towards agreeing with Matthew here.

Also, as I mentioned in the rule-violation report thread:

"I wish that people would take content revision and versus discussions more matter of fact analytical and less like a fight with opponents to be defeated.

There is a real world out there with comparatively much more serious problems to worry about."
 
bruh Blood prison has been mention in more than just a the manga or anime its also been mentioned Boruto and a light novel so it has more proof of being canon than Bleach does actually lol.

But if you guys dont wanna use Blood Prison we can use Road to Ninja since it has a Light Novel lol but we dont consider that canon even tho we have it in the anime and in a movie and a Light Novel
 
@Professor

I have no idea what you are even on about now.

He wrote the concept of the Valley of Screams in the manga. That's it. That doesn't mean the whole movie is canon. Do you understand this concept? Including a non-canon location, event or character later doesn't make it canon. For Naruto again, Kishimoto outright included the Anime Filler Jinchuriki in the manga. Doesn't mean their Filler Arcs are canon.

He didn't ever clarify anything, that's your assumption. And the lack of contradictions is not an argument for your side. That has already been proven to mean nothing. Plenty of Dragon Ball movies fit with no contradictions as well.
 
RegisNex1232 said:
Toei isn't Toriyama, and I fail to see how any of these examples are relevant. MoN doesn't outright contradict the manga, unlike most of the DB/Naruto movies, so I don't get why the default assumptio is that it's non-canon.
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Because this is the default assumption with any anime movie. This isn't even based on the manga like Naruto: The Last which was released while the anime was still in fillers and glacial progress, and which Kishimoto had heavy involvement and said in interviews that was canon.

This is a movie based on the anime based on the manga. Which as far as I can tell, Kubo had little involvement with. He is credited in the front of the untranslated promotional novelization of the movie, but again, no context.
 
I'm not understanding your point Antvasima.

What reason is there to agree with him? his only explaniation is his general view on media.

Meanwhile i'm using direct canon material..
 
@Frantzy

I made my point clear in dozens of posts, and plenty of people including Soldier Blue (A Bleach Supporter) have agreed with me? It's not like my arguments are incomprehensible. They involve simple Burden of Proof, and not using Fan Theories or unproven interpretations of a single panel reference.
 
Antvasima said:
This discussion is going in circles. Perhaps it should be closed soon?
Click to expand...
It's literally a repeat of a discussion from January which had most the same people agreeing / disagreeing too.
 
> This is a movie based on the anime, based on the Manga.


Where was this ever stated? The movie isn't based on the anime. Ichigo was literally at the Valley of Screams. and the Manga confirms it. So you tell me when Ichigo ever went to the Valley of Screams.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@Professor
I have no idea what you are even on about now.

He wrote the concept of the Valley of Screams in the manga. That's it. That doesn't mean the whole movie is canon. Do you understand this concept? Including a non-canon location, event or character later doesn't make it canon. For Naruto again, Kishimoto outright included the Anime Filler Jinchuriki in the manga. Doesn't mean their Filler Arcs are canon.

He didn't ever clarify anything, that's your assumption. And the lack of contradictions is not an argument for your side. That has already been proven to mean nothing. Plenty of Dragon Ball movies fit with no contradictions as well.
Click to expand...
So take a moment to read.

Correct, this doesn't inherently mean its canon. I understand this concept very well and how it applies in other works of fiction. However, him using it as reference for fans and writing about it while having no objections (like we've seen with Toriyama on GT) lends more credibility to it being canon.

I don't know if you understand this but not mentioning/forgetting important notable events characters and powerups do count as contradictions. This happens in every Dragon Ball movie I can think of.
 
Knightofannihilation666 said:
> This is a movie based on the anime, based on the Manga.
Where was this ever stated?
Click to expand...
The fact that this is a Bleach Anime Movie made by the people who were animating the anime at the time?

You know, the same reason we consider every Dragon Ball Movie up until Battle of Gods an anime-movie. The same reason the same applies to all One Piece Movies and all Naruto movies up until The Last?
 
RegisNex1232 said:
No, one also needs to show why it isn't canon, when the basic reasoning has been "just because" with no further proof.
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Why does one need to prove a negative?

Why does one need to prove why something isn't the case instead of that it is?

I repeat. If we didn't know the color of the sky, would I need to prove that it's not blue? Or would you need to prove that it is?

We do not need to assume that something is automatically true, it needs to be proven to be true.
 
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