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Bleach - accepting Memories of Nobody as canon
- Thread starter LordGinSama
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- bleach
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Ichigo never mentions a girl that Riruka reminds him of. Your making things up.LordStarGazer said:
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To illustrate my point about the necessity of an Official Statements
Masami Kurumada, original author and artist of Saint Seiya, was involved directly and quite heavily in every single movie for the anime back in the 80s. He drew the designs for the villains of every movie, and helped outline the plots. All of these movies can perfectly fit with the anime, as there is a 3 year gap between the Poseidon and Hades Sagas. And the last movie even references two others.
... None of them are canon, however. They are just filler done to ride on the anime's popularity and bank some more money. None of them have ever been treated as being part of the continuity.
Bleach has less going for it and shouldn't be different.
Masami Kurumada, original author and artist of Saint Seiya, was involved directly and quite heavily in every single movie for the anime back in the 80s. He drew the designs for the villains of every movie, and helped outline the plots. All of these movies can perfectly fit with the anime, as there is a 3 year gap between the Poseidon and Hades Sagas. And the last movie even references two others.
... None of them are canon, however. They are just filler done to ride on the anime's popularity and bank some more money. None of them have ever been treated as being part of the continuity.
Bleach has less going for it and shouldn't be different.
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It's not like Kubo has expressed why he did nor acknowledged it an interview. At least, none that I'm aware of.
Kubo could have thrown in that reference for any number of reasons. That's why I pointed that out. Because we don't know 'why'. He could have just done just to mess with his fanbase or because he thought it was cool. A flight of fancy.
Heck, he could just be doing it to drum up more talk and conversion about Bleach.
Kubo could have thrown in that reference for any number of reasons. That's why I pointed that out. Because we don't know 'why'. He could have just done just to mess with his fanbase or because he thought it was cool. A flight of fancy.
Heck, he could just be doing it to drum up more talk and conversion about Bleach.
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It's a difference between being credited as the original author/being involved and actually authoring it yourself.
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Kubo didn't author neither the movie nor the untranslated promotional novelization though? He's just credited as the author of Bleach.
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He's Co-Author of the light Novels
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That doesn't mean its canon? Again, the MoN Novel is a novelization of the movie. And it's untranslated. Novelizations aren't canon unless there's statements sayin they are (Star Wars).Frantzy12 said:
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BTW, I just checked the another translation and... Look!
The translation makes it clear that he isn't referencing any past girl. He's just talking about Riruka herself.
I doubled checked with the Brazilian translation and he doesn't reference anyone there either. He's talking about Riruka. The scanlation mentioning a past girl is making shit up.
Ditto for Spanish Translation.
The translation makes it clear that he isn't referencing any past girl. He's just talking about Riruka herself.
I doubled checked with the Brazilian translation and he doesn't reference anyone there either. He's talking about Riruka. The scanlation mentioning a past girl is making shit up.
Ditto for Spanish Translation.
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Boi, that literally has the *********** watermark on it, try again.Matthew Schroeder said:
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lol
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@Matt
I never said him mentioning Senna, but the event himself
I never said him mentioning Senna, but the event himself
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>My argument
>Your head.
My point is that the translation is innacurate 3 to 1. He never references Senna or whoever in three translations I checked. Now he literally just references the place once.
>Your head.
My point is that the translation is innacurate 3 to 1. He never references Senna or whoever in three translations I checked. Now he literally just references the place once.
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People were saying he did. I just proved that was false.Hst master said:
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Also, doesn't the Valley of Screams have a different explanation in the manga than it does the movie?
The movie says that there is one. The manga says there are mulitple like it.
It just kind of points that Kubo may have taken the idea because it was cool. He wouldn't be the first to pull something like that.
The movie says that there is one. The manga says there are mulitple like it.
It just kind of points that Kubo may have taken the idea because it was cool. He wouldn't be the first to pull something like that.
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Cool. But taking a vague statement of "I've been there before", which now is proven to have no potential reference to Senna, and then asserting that to mean the whole movie happened in the manga is speculation. It's a fan theory with no official confirmation.Frantzy12 said:
So it cannot be used.
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Yes the explanations differ slightly too.TheC2 said:
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To use Matthew's own words: Viz can be unreliable at times when it comes to translations, so I decided to find the raws for the quote from Kubo's statement on Valley of Screams from Volume 69, chapter 627.
Vol. 69 Pg. 96 Chapter 627
The kanji as follows:
ÕŽÞ░ÀÒü½ÒüñÒüäÒü»ÕèçÕá┤þëêþ¼¼õ©Çõ¢£ÕÅéþàºÒÇé
I can translate a bit and have done translations for others here so my reading of it is as follows:
"For Valley of Screams, check out the first movie film."
So I'm leaning towards canon still.
Vol. 69 Pg. 96 Chapter 627
The kanji as follows:
ÕŽÞ░ÀÒü½ÒüñÒüäÒü»ÕèçÕá┤þëêþ¼¼õ©Çõ¢£ÕÅéþàºÒÇé
I can translate a bit and have done translations for others here so my reading of it is as follows:
"For Valley of Screams, check out the first movie film."
So I'm leaning towards canon still.
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My point is that the translation is innacurate 3 to 1. He never references Senna or whoever in three translations I checked. Now he literally just references the place once.
If we are going to go argument from quantity here, you should preferably use the language of which the manga came from.
To be fair, I get your point, I love all three of those languages.
But for the sake of intellectual honesty, we should use Japanese.
If we are going to go argument from quantity here, you should preferably use the language of which the manga came from.
To be fair, I get your point, I love all three of those languages.
But for the sake of intellectual honesty, we should use Japanese.
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@IMade
Nobody is using Viz, though? Also my major point when it comes to Viz Translations is centered around they randomly changing the names of characters, attacks, weapons, locations, what have you. "Kaioh-Sama" becoming "Great Galaxy Lord" for example.
This statement from Kubo is just saying you should check the movie. It isn't saying it happened conclusively. Now that there's clarification that there's no Senna reference, the whole thing becomes more clearly a reference. Just that.
Nobody is using Viz, though? Also my major point when it comes to Viz Translations is centered around they randomly changing the names of characters, attacks, weapons, locations, what have you. "Kaioh-Sama" becoming "Great Galaxy Lord" for example.
This statement from Kubo is just saying you should check the movie. It isn't saying it happened conclusively. Now that there's clarification that there's no Senna reference, the whole thing becomes more clearly a reference. Just that.
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- Thread starter
- #146
I think IMade seems to make sense with his raw translation.
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Is it just me or does anyone else find it weird that we exclude an author having any sort of meaningful say on what is canon in their verse and what isn't? If the man worked on the movie just as much as the anime and there is no contradictions and the two plots fit together like puzzle pieces, why do we just straight up ignore it?Matthew Schroeder said:
Shit do authors have to have their characters break the fourth wall and reference the movie before we consider it?
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@Frantzy12
That's the reference. That doesn't confirm the movie being canon. I've said this a dozen times already.
@Professor
He didn't work extensively in the movie. Nobody has provided citations for that. And that wouldn't make it canon either.
That's the reference. That doesn't confirm the movie being canon. I've said this a dozen times already.
@Professor
He didn't work extensively in the movie. Nobody has provided citations for that. And that wouldn't make it canon either.
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at this point the viz translation makes the most sense lol. Earlier i was wondering why reading through what ichigo was saying didnt sound right at all but viz makes it more clear lol. Aw bruh lmao Ichigo is describing Riri lol that is clear as day. Thats in both the Viz and the other translation damn lol. Im out for sho
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Knight's argument makes the most sense so far.
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With the raws, we now know that Kubo said to check out the movie to learn more about Valley of Screams. That means Valley of Screams from the movie is canon.
Vol. 69 Pg. 96 Chapter 627
Through Ichigo we know he's been there, and Ichigo has only been there in the movie.
Through the timeline, we know that the movie fits after Grimmjow's invasion and before Luppi's invasion in that one month time gap because Ichigo had already seen Rukia's powers and no one had Arrancar arc power-ups.
So yes, it fits the criteria. There's no reason to deny this with enough proof.
Vol. 69 Pg. 96 Chapter 627
Through Ichigo we know he's been there, and Ichigo has only been there in the movie.
Through the timeline, we know that the movie fits after Grimmjow's invasion and before Luppi's invasion in that one month time gap because Ichigo had already seen Rukia's powers and no one had Arrancar arc power-ups.
So yes, it fits the criteria. There's no reason to deny this with enough proof.
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If he did work on the movie, why wouldn't it be made canon? What's the logic behind this? Is it because he didnt it write it 100%? If that's the case than most mangas aren't canon at all, most literature in general goes through heavy editing and streamlining processes that change the authors original intent and depiction. Therefore the only reliable source is the authors original notes/work.
It's not like some random people came together and made a movie in his verse, he had artistic input and control in the movie, no?
It's not like some random people came together and made a movie in his verse, he had artistic input and control in the movie, no?
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No it doesn't mean that the movie is canon. That just means that the concept of the Valley of Screams from the movie was made canon, just like the Blood Prison. That doesn't mean the events of the movie are canon. We need Official Statements for that.
Kubo is just saying that you should check the movie. It's a reference, nothing more.
Assessing it as taking place there is your headcanon. Nothing states or confirms that.
Kubo is just saying that you should check the movie. It's a reference, nothing more.
Assessing it as taking place there is your headcanon. Nothing states or confirms that.
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I'm not sure what this argument is though? I request an Official Statement. There is none. Nobody is excluding the author completely.ProfessorLord said:
It potentially fitting, or the author having worked on the movie doesn't make it necessarily canon either, as repeatedly stated above.
The single panel reference in one chapter that this has isn't remotely enough.
If he did work on the movie, why wouldn't it be made canon? What's the logic behind this? Is it because he didnt it write it 100%? If that's the case than most mangas aren't canon at all, most literature in general goes through heavy editing and streamlining processes that change the authors original intent and depiction. Therefore the only reliable source is the authors original notes/work.
Again, where is evidence that he did? Nobody has posted any evidence showing he worked on the movie. And no, that doesn't make it canon. Toriyama worked on a bunch of DB movies and 90% of them aren't canon.
The literature comparison is a false equivalency fallacy. All published fiction goes through editing, but it will in the end tell a cohesive story from beginning to end. This is a movie based on the anime that's based on the manga. A reference years later on the manga isn't proof of canonicity. It's just evidence that the concept from the movie was put in canon.
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@Matt
He didn't work on the movie much, it was the novel he worked on with alongside Co-Author Makoto Matsubara; Who he also Co-Authored with for the other novels, the explanation comes from the novel
@Astral
Didn't see your commemt there, the blood prison op is mentioned in Kakashi Gaiden iirc happening b4 Shippuden
He didn't work on the movie much, it was the novel he worked on with alongside Co-Author Makoto Matsubara; Who he also Co-Authored with for the other novels, the explanation comes from the novel
@Astral
Didn't see your commemt there, the blood prison op is mentioned in Kakashi Gaiden iirc happening b4 Shippuden
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Can someone translate the cover of the MON novel?
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This should be more than enough proof. We have a direct statement from the author who is saying to watch the movie to learn more. We don't need any more than the author's own words about his own universe.
Thankfully we do have more with a character referencing having been there that only occurs in a movie that the author is saying to see to learn more.
It fits in the timeline which is just a cherry on top.
We have enough evidence.
Thankfully we do have more with a character referencing having been there that only occurs in a movie that the author is saying to see to learn more.
It fits in the timeline which is just a cherry on top.
We have enough evidence.
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