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Bleach Fade to Black Seireitei Statement

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Damage3245 said:
I can assure you that this size from the movie would be the biggest outlier out of all available data so far on the Seireitei.
Click to expand...
I would disagree here. We massively lowball Yoruichi’s statement using normal human walking speed with generous rest in determining Seireitei’s current size and we get ~half of the size stated within the movie. And we know these characters have massively above human stamina and would be in a rush, so to claim they could cover double the lowballed distance from Yoruichi’s statement isn’t far fetched. Uryu you can train for 7 days and nights nonstop. Ichigo immediately after this arc can sprint for 5 days and nights nonstop. Meaning these character speed walking for 10 days to cover twice the distance as normal walking pace is not a wild idea.

I know we are always going to be diametrically opposed here but I felt compelled to comment on it being an outlier.
 
Quick question, would we have to recalc the statement of Yamamoto's Bankai burning down Soul Society to accomodate this change?

Also, would we also have to get new speed calcs to compensate for this new size for the Seiretei, like when Ichigo unlocked bankai and sped all the way over to Sokyoku Hill in the middle of the Seireitei?

Agreed btw
 
Scottycj256 said:
Quick question, would we have to recalc the statement of Yamamoto's Bankai burning down Soul Society to accomodate this change?

Also, would we also have to get new speed calcs to compensate for this new size for the Seiretei, like when Ichigo unlocked bankai and sped all the way over to Sokyoku Hill in the middle of the Seireitei?

Agreed btw
Click to expand...
I’d make a comprehensive blog of all the affected calcs yes
 
Nothing actually contradicts the validity of the statement at all, appealing to extremely inconsistent drawn sizes rather than static statements when art is beholden to one's artistic capabilities while statements aren't is beyond illogical. Just because we're visually shown a plethora of different sizes, with each sizes being below the stated value from FtB doesn't inherently contradict the statement since all those showings contradict themselves entirely, meaning the "evidence" you're asserting is inherently faulty and such isn't valid contention against the OP's claims.

It's logically more consistent to use statements rather than extremely inconsistent visuals, that's all.
 
@Deceived; I think there is a certain hypocrisy in how this is applied when it comes to Bleach, but that's a topic more for the specific feats than for this movie statement and its validity.

Also, the "showings contradict themselves entirely" is inevitable when you use multiple pieces of drawn evidence since nothing is ever going to be 100% perfectly drawn consistently, especially across years of publication and art evolution. That doesn't mean throwing them out entirely, if an average depiction can be found and obvious outliers spotted.
 
Damage3245 said:
@Deceived; I think there is a certain hypocrisy in how this is applied when it comes to Bleach, but that's a topic more for the specific feats than for this movie statement and its validity.

Also, the "showings contradict themselves entirely" is inevitable when you use multiple pieces of drawn evidence since nothing is ever going to be 100% perfectly drawn consistently, especially across years of publication and art evolution. That doesn't mean throwing them out entirely, if an average depiction can be found and obvious outliers spotted.
Click to expand...
While that is certainly true, there’s a very valid perspective that the wildly inconsistent drawings are outliers to the consistent statements, as outlier can go in both directions
 
Purgy said:
Length and distance are the same thing

And it objectively means length/distance as that's what it was created for and what it's purpose is, Japan has entirely different units for area and none of them are "ri", you can see this very easily if you just google Japanese units of measurement.
Click to expand...
Yes, “ri” at times is used to mean “ length/ distance” which can vary depending on the definition,context or era.

Lots of units change over the course of history or based on context, like how a nautical mile is longer than a mile, or how the pound has a standard physical reference, and can also be used as a unit of force.

An example "English Ri" (英里) is a mile and a "sea Ri" is a nautical mile (海里)

Researching the kanji)
里（り）is a measurement of length/distance. In China today: 500 m; Japan: approx. 3.9 km; Korea: approx. 400 m.
also is used in Japan as a measure of area 654 m per side.

At times it’s apparent that it’s used as a unit of area. it even has the same kanji as “ village” after all. The kanji’s placement in context is important. Within bleach it seems to be a silly unit of measurement,
“Reiri” which we both agree translates as "spirit miles". When considering spirit matter is the make up of everything in the soul society this placement of the kanji shouldn’t be ignored.

(Asking a friend who translates for a living)
“In Bleach, I guess it means a circular area of one fictional "reiri" ("soul/ spirit ri") miles and/or radius.”

I simply wouldn’t interpret this to be a preponderance of evidence supporting this route or argument as “reiri” = length, the “ reishi mist” covering a unit of length solely, but rather how the kanji is placed within context. spirit miles, “reiri” = area.
I agree with everything else but the interpretation of “ri” the kanji’s placement.
 
Sasukesolos said:
Yes, “ri” at times is used to mean “ length/ distance” which can vary depending on the definition,context or era.

Lots of units change over the course of history or based on context, like how a nautical mile is longer than a mile, or how the pound has a standard physical reference, and can also be used as a unit of force.

An example "English Ri" (英里) is a mile and a "sea Ri" is a nautical mile (海里)

Researching the kanji)
里（り）is a measurement of length/distance. In China today: 500 m; Japan: approx. 3.9 km; Korea: approx. 400 m.
also is used in Japan as a measure of area 654 m per side.

At times it’s apparent that it’s used as a unit of area. it even has the same kanji as “ village” after all. The kanji’s placement in context is important. Within bleach it seems to be a silly unit of measurement,
“Reiri” which we both agree translates as "spirit miles". When considering spirit matter is the make up of everything in the soul society this placement of the kanji shouldn’t be ignored.

(Asking a friend who translates for a living)
“In Bleach, I guess it means a circular area of one fictional "reiri" ("soul/ spirit ri") miles and/or radius.”

I simply wouldn’t interpret this to be a preponderance of evidence supporting this route or argument as “reiri” = length, the “ reishi mist” covering a unit of length solely, but rather how the kanji is placed within context. spirit miles, “reiri” = area.
I agree with everything else but the interpretation of “ri” the kanji’s placement.
Click to expand...
I'd disagree fact that they claim it spreads 200 ri in the east-west direction, inherently implying a "2D" length measurement. If they wanted to denote it as an area they would've contextualized it as such, but they contextualized it with a "2D" ray, east to west, a straight line, a line, indicating a unit of length, not area.

For the same reason that if I tell you something is 100 meters in the vertical direction implies nothing about an area and only a height length, so to applies with east-west.

Furthermore, if you look at the scan Purgy sent, Bleach uses ri in a length/distance context via precedence. Yamamoto states that Aizen needs a spirit zone x amount of ri in diameter. So, I see nothing to support your interpretation that it's being used as an area. Bleach in all other instances, and in the appropriate context in FtB uses it as a length distance.

Lastly, Yoruichi claims it would take 10 days to walk a quarter of the circumference of Seireitei. Your claim that it's referring to the 654x654 m^2 area would imply Seireitei has a ~7 km quarter circumference. Which would imply that they'd be walking at a pace of ~40 meters per hour, the average human walking speed is something like ~5000 meters an hour. Ichigo and co. having a walking speed over 100x slower than a snail (snails can reach speeds of ~47 meters per hour) is quite ridiculous. So, your interpretation is also contradictory to the narrative.
 
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Screenshot_2022-11-13_232421.png
image.png
Screenshot_2022-11-13_232447.png

That moment when I figured out how The Fade to Black size statement was comparable to Yoruichi's size statement and the Seireitei having over 2400 districts over 5 years ago...

Good to finally see Kubo's interview being translated entirely, that was something I always wished we could've had since I really believed it would solidify Seireitei's size.

We need to stop doubting that Kubo intended for Seireitei to be huge. If Kubo wanted it to be small he would not throw a size statement every 100 chapter or movie that makes it huge. We were literally told Seireitei is made up of over 2400 districts, that it takes 40 days to walk around, that it takes several days to just walk from a gate to a barrack (literally in a novel that came out after the manga ended).

End this buffoonery, Seireitei is massive as ****.
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
Screenshot_2022-11-13_232421.png
image.png
Screenshot_2022-11-13_232447.png

That moment when I figured out how The Fade to Black size statement was comparable to Yoruichi's size statement and the Seireitei having over 2400 districts over 5 years ago...

Good to finally see Kubo's interview being translated entirely, that was something I always wished we could've had since I really believed it would solidify Seireitei's size.

We need to stop doubting that Kubo intended for Seireitei to be huge. If Kubo wanted it to be small he would not throw a size statement every 100 chapter or movie that makes it huge. We were literally told Seireitei is made up of over 2400 districts, that it takes 40 days to walk around, that it takes several days to just walk from a gate to a barrack (literally in a novel that came out after the manga ended).

End this buffoonery, Seireitei is massive as ****.
Click to expand...
It's why authorial intent and explicit statement are a useful tool. Art can't be assumed an end-all-be-all since scale cannot be properly conveyed in an area as limited as a page, but one's chosen words will be precise and effective and always be indicative of one's intent and true thoughts. Always have been a proponent of that, shame that people hyper fixate on art for issues such as these.

I'm glad we were right all those years ago, thank you for reminding me I even have this account, I guess my hiatus wasn't as indefinite as I had thought.
 
Sasukesolos said:
Yes, “ri” at times is used to mean “ length/ distance” which can vary depending on the definition,context or era.

Lots of units change over the course of history or based on context, like how a nautical mile is longer than a mile, or how the pound has a standard physical reference, and can also be used as a unit of force.

An example "English Ri" (英里) is a mile and a "sea Ri" is a nautical mile (海里)

Researching the kanji)
里（り）is a measurement of length/distance. In China today: 500 m; Japan: approx. 3.9 km; Korea: approx. 400 m.
also is used in Japan as a measure of area 654 m per side.

At times it’s apparent that it’s used as a unit of area. it even has the same kanji as “ village” after all. The kanji’s placement in context is important. Within bleach it seems to be a silly unit of measurement,
“Reiri” which we both agree translates as "spirit miles". When considering spirit matter is the make up of everything in the soul society this placement of the kanji shouldn’t be ignored.

(Asking a friend who translates for a living)
“In Bleach, I guess it means a circular area of one fictional "reiri" ("soul/ spirit ri") miles and/or radius.”

I simply wouldn’t interpret this to be a preponderance of evidence supporting this route or argument as “reiri” = length, the “ reishi mist” covering a unit of length solely, but rather how the kanji is placed within context. spirit miles, “reiri” = area.
I agree with everything else but the interpretation of “ri” the kanji’s placement.
Click to expand...
Even putting aside that we'd always go with the standard and current meaning of "ri" unless there was some considerable evidence suggesting we should use the one from the middle ages that represents area which you brought up, Bleach already has a large precedent of using "ri" for distance on multiple occasions as Arc mentioned.

Ichibe's attack sends a target back 1000 ri
0605-011.png

iONZg5K.png

突いたものを千里の先まで問答無用で吹き飛ばす
千里 = thousand ri
Yamamoto explains that a Jureichi is 2 ri in diameter
0223-009.png

Ohyrbk4.png
If you're within 3 ri of Toshiro when he's using Shikai you're not safe
0132-002.png

En8kv55.png
Databook for Toshiro, 3 ri distance in every direction
四方 four directions
三里 three ri
距離 distance
c8X6i65.png
Even for things that Kubo could have very easily given as area, such as Jureichi and Toshiro's Shikai, he instead gives as diameter or distance lol, just goes to show that ri is in 99.99% of cases, a length unit.

As far as I'm aware, "ri" has never once been used to mean area in Bleach, nor do I know of any other series where it has, it's that ridiculously uncommon and there are far more units of measurement for area in Japan that would be used first if that was the intent.

I will admit that it is possible that it's referring to area, but it requires using a very specific, outdated and rare usage of "ri", I just don't see why we'd ever choose that over the far more standard and common variant of length ri which has appeared many times in Bleach already.

Anyway, I don't see the point of us continuing this, both are valid, you believe one and I believe the other, that probably isn't going to change.
 
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Purgy said:
Even putting aside that we'd always go with the standard and current meaning of "ri" unless there was some considerable evidence suggesting we should use the one from the middle ages that represents area which you brought up, Bleach already has a large precedent of using "ri" for distance on multiple occasions as Arc mentioned.

Ichibe's attack sends a target back 1000 ri
0605-011.png

iONZg5K.png

突いたものを千里の先まで問答無用で吹き飛ばす
千里 = thousand ri
Yamamoto explains that a Jureichi is 2 ri in diameter
0223-009.png

Ohyrbk4.png
If you're within 3 ri of Toshiro when he's using Shikai you're not safe
0132-002.png

En8kv55.png
Databook for Toshiro, 3 ri distance in every direction
四方 four directions
三里 three ri
距離 distance
c8X6i65.png
Even for things that Kubo could have very easily given as area, such as Jureichi and Toshiro's Shikai, he instead gives as diameter or distance lol, just goes to show that ri is in 99.99% of cases, a length unit.

As far as I'm aware, "ri" has never once been used to mean area in Bleach, nor do I know of any other series where it has, it's that ridiculously uncommon and there are far more units of measurement for area in Japan that would be used first if that was the intent.

I will admit that it is possible that it's referring to area, but it requires using a very specific, outdated and rare usage of "ri", I just don't see why we'd ever choose that over the far more standard and common variant of length ri which has appeared many times in Bleach already.

Anyway, I don't see the point of us continuing this, both are valid, you believe one and I believe the other, that probably isn't going to change.
Click to expand...

it’s apparent that within bleach for the vast majority “ri” is consistently shown to be a measure of distance. I completely agree with this. I’m not willfully ignorant to deny that fact for the sake the possibility exists, that it can be used to be a unit of measurement regarding area. So again I agree.

I used (area) & other things like era lol as an example, to show the kanji’s meaning can vary depending on placement &/or context. The premise of my post was more so out of curiosity. Why “ri” was being used solely, to represent “ 3.93km” rather than just accepting the fictional measurement of miles, “spirit miles”. Considering that’s how it’s most often being pared,used, “miles” or “Reiri”. That’s how the kanji translates within the given context.

I remember something being brought up in this thread. That the (Japanese dub) specifically says “ri” and not “ Reiri”. If that’s the case, I also wouldn’t oppose that. Seeing as how I’m in favor of the native language outweighing pretty much anything. I would only question whether or not if it’s been used to simply mean “miles”. Why is it accepted that 3.93 km outweighs that possibility?
 
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Arc7Kuroi said:
I think Purgy explained this in Bleach general or someone did, but it’s a quirky VIZ “**** up”. Because no native English speaker is going to know what a ri is, so they took liberties with translating it.
Click to expand...
This makes sense since ri is a Japanese unit
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
I think Purgy explained this in Bleach general or someone did, but it’s a quirky VIZ “**** up”. Because no native English speaker is going to know what a ri is, so they took liberties with translating it.
Click to expand...
Viz always does shit like this, this is why they use miles instead of kilometers, feet instead of meters, then they convert and round off the value, essentially ******* up the original value in japanese
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
I think Purgy explained this in Bleach general or someone did, but it’s a quirky VIZ “**** up”. Because no native English speaker is going to know what a ri is, so they took liberties with translating it.
Click to expand...
That’s a lot of “ **** ups” I don’t necessarily doubt that. especially, when you look at the yhwach vs ichibei panel it says 1000 ri means 300 miles. Like that doesn’t make any sense. I’ll just remain neutral regarding that issue because I don’t know the relationship between the native & English translators. However, I do agree with everything else. Including the usage of bleach movie 3, FTB to confirm the capital’s size through the idea of it being a canon concept.
 
Sasukesolos said:
That’s a lot of “ **** ups” I don’t necessarily doubt that. especially, when you look at the yhwach vs ichibei panel it says 1000 ri means 300 miles. Like that doesn’t make any sense. I’ll just remain neutral regarding that issue because I don’t know the relationship between the native & English translators. However, I do agree with everything else. Including the usage of bleach movie 3, FTB to confirm the capital’s size through the idea of it being a canon concept.
Click to expand...
I’ll put you down as neutral 👌
 
KingTempest said:
Viz always does shit like this, this is why they use miles instead of kilometers, feet instead of meters, then they convert and round off the value, essentially ******* up the original value in japanese
Click to expand...
Random fun fact, it's not just VIZ that does this.

"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." Super famous saying even in the West, right? The original is "A journey of a thousand li(the Chinese version of literally what we are discussing here for Soul Society) begins with a single step". It's fascinating that it's just a consistent mistranslation, and almost any time you see 'miles' in a western translation of eastern media, it is a mistranslation for convenience's sake.

Also in case it was not entirely obvious, put me down as agree since it is patently self-evidently correct.
 
Well I got 6 staff agreements, 1 staff neutral, 1 staff disagreement, and 2 staff Alex. So I’m going to blog the result and justification, get it checked over, and then apply the changes to the verse page. I’ll then begin working on a blog of all affected calcs.
 
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Xulrev said:
Random fun fact, it's not just VIZ that does this.

"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." Super famous saying even in the West, right? The original is "A journey of a thousand li(the Chinese version of literally what we are discussing here for Soul Society) begins with a single step". It's fascinating that it's just a consistent mistranslation, and almost any time you see 'miles' in a western translation of eastern media, it is a mistranslation for convenience's sake.

Also in case it was not entirely obvious, put me down as agree since it is patently self-evidently correct.
Click to expand...
It's actually very common for "ri" to be translated to mile, it's just that some people see "mile" and immediately jump to imperial mile which is the issue as "mile" in of itself doesn't actually mean anything other than large distance.

Pretty much every country ever has their own form of "mile" at some point in time that differs in distance to an imperial mile, even if we considered "ri" to mean mile and called it a Japanese mile, it wouldn't detract from the fact that it irrefutably equals 3.93 kilometers.

The Wikipedia page I linked in one of my previous posts even goes over it
The Japanese ri is also frequently known by its Chinese name li[14] or glossed as the Japanese mile.[16]
Click to expand...
However, it doesn't actually equal a mile, it never has.
 
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