Black Maria VS Tsunade

[Kachon123]

Forgot to ask what's the source for Amande > Pero Candy Wall > Gear 3rd
Also I thought that meant Zoan Big Mom and I was so confused for a second

She could destroy it while Gear 3rd Luffy couldn't.

 

[Yoh_Asakura8]

Ima vote for Tsunade because she can summon Katsuyu. This makes it a 2v1. Katsuyu is hard to kill and and and and tsunade's overwhelming strength is leagues above hers.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

She could destroy it while Gear 3rd Luffy couldn't.

Oh no Haki G3rd, that makes more sense

 

[Nierre]

Huh.. Tsunade is far more skilled than Black Maria, and could also use Substitution Jutsu if she's restrained. Although she hasn't actually used it in character IIRC, she hasn't had a need to actually use it, but in this specific scenario where she would quite literally be physically restrained and have no other choice but to use it, I'd see no reason for her not to. She should be able to heal even if her regeneration doesn't work as well. She's also fully capable of summoning Katsuyu and splitting her into numerous of smaller slugs to get through the webs, and heal her as well. She can also just spit acid to melt the webs.

She also trained Sakura on reading attack patterns and to master evasion techinques (which is quite literally on her profile), allowing her to fight and defeat Sasori (with the help of Chiyo). Sasori with his 100 puppets and Iron Sand are a FAR greater adversary than Black Maria imo, and Tsunade is more skilled than Sakura. She can also amp herself with Chakra to increase her DC making her a very destructive fighter.

I think I'll vote for Tsunade for these reasons.

 

[Deceived3596]

I guess I'll address Kachon's arguments before providing mine for Tsunade.

Black Maria has an over over 5474951.05x advantage in LS, which would allow her to cover the entire battle field with webs, allowing her to trap Tsunade.

I don't have much problems with this. With the massive lifting strength advantage that Black Maria has, she could absolutely trap Tsunade with her webbing. I do believe Tsunade can counter this however through Katsuyu, who can release sticky globs of acid which can corrode away the webs constricting Tsunade's movement.

Tsunade generally summons Katsuyu at the beginning of a fight, so she should have ample time to do so here before being affected by Maria's webs. And on the off-chance that Katsuyu gets trapped by the webbing, she can split herself into hundreds of small, duplicates of herself, and then rejoin those pieces together. Allowing her to functionally negate Maria's kit for the most part.

Once Tsunade is trapped, Black Maria would set the area on fire, burning Tsunade while she's trapped while also using her weapon to poison Tsunade. Under normal circumstances, Tsunade would be able to take out the poison with mystical palm, but because she'd be stuck on Black Maria's webs at this point, she would not be able to.

I would argue against the idea that Tsunade would be trapped long enough for the fire or poison to significantly affect her. With Katsuyu around, she can just have her corrode away the webs before either can do much harm. After which she can douse the flames through Water Style if needed, and the poison can be removed through Medical Ninjutsu.

Black Maria's Buso would stop Tsunade from regenerating, so that isn't an option either.

I'm not entirely sure that Buso would negate Tsunade's regeneration. It's explained on the Haki page that Buso only negates "non-natural" regeneration, which in Tsunade case, wouldn't be applicable since her regeneration is through accelerating her own natural healing process through Creation Rebirth. I wouldn't call that "non-natural" since she's only just accelerating her natural capabilities, not her granting herself an un-natural level of regeneration, such as gained through Marco's Devil Fruit.

---

With the above addressed, I'll now explained why I believe Tsunade would win this fight.

I believe Tsunade has enough in her arsenal to negate most of the abilities that Maria has, she can use Katsuyu to nullify the strength of Maria's webs through corroding them away, she can nullify the flames through Water Style or just, through sheer shockwaves created through her punches, can extinguish the flames and she can nullify the poison through Medical Ninjutsu.

With Tsunade's scaling into 6-C granting her a 3x AP advantage, which while not enough to oneshot with every strike, would still significantly harm Maria. Plus her abilities which aren't easily counter-able by Maria, such as her chakra blades which would allow Tsunade to bypass the physical durability of Maria and directly attack her tendons and muscles, such as her intercostal muscles which are use for breathing, this can be used to cause the opponent to pass and eventually die from lack of oxygen to the brain.

She can also use Lightning Style to rewire one's nervous system, this causes the signals of one's nervous system to become crossed, messing up one's ability to even move correctly. For an example of how this works, the act of trying to lift your right arm would instead cause your left arm to lift because the signals of your right and left arm are switched.

I don't believe with Maria's level of intellect, she would have enough time to figure out these the differences and re-adjust before Tsunade could finish her off with AP, chakra blades or Katsuyu melting her away with acid.

I don't believe this fight is a complete stomp as Maria does have valid wincons, I just lean towards Tsunade because of the reasoning I laid out above.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Pretty good arguments for Tsunade ngl but I'll wait for Kachon's response before voting for her instead

 

[Eminiteable]

I'm not entirely sure that Buso would negate Tsunade's regeneration. It's explained on the Haki page that Buso only negates "non-natural" regeneration, which in Tsunade case, wouldn't be applicable since her regeneration is through accelerating her own natural healing process through Creation Rebirth. I wouldn't call that "non-natural" since she's only just accelerating her natural capabilities, not her granting herself an un-natural level of regeneration, such as gained through Marco's Devil Fruit.

If it works by accelerating her own natural healing then it wouldn't work as that's the same way Marco achieves his own regeneration.

 

[Deceived3596]

If it works by accelerating her own natural healing then it wouldn't work as that's the same way Marco achieves his own regeneration.

I have questions and potential contentions about this. But first, can you explain what "non-natural" regeneration means on the Haki page?.

 

[Eminiteable]

I have questions and potential contentions about this. But first, can you explain what "non-natural" regeneration means on the Haki page?

"Non-Natural" is in reference to Marco's Phoenix Flames which accelerate his natural healing.

KT explained it in your own thread:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/one-piece-regeneration-negation-downgrade-crying-chopper-edition.144133/#post-5193776

 

[Kachon123]

I'm not entirely sure that Buso would negate Tsunade's regeneration. It's explained on the Haki page that Buso only negates "non-natural" regeneration, which in Tsunade case, wouldn't be applicable since her regeneration is through accelerating her own natural healing process through Creation Rebirth. I wouldn't call that "non-natural" since she's only just accelerating her natural capabilities, not her granting herself an un-natural level of regeneration, such as gained through Marco's Devil Fruit.

It would. Marco's regeneration does the same.

she can nullify the flames through Water Style or just, through sheer shockwaves created through her punches, can extinguish the flames

Black Maria's flames are coated on her weapon, and it continuously makes flames, so this won't do anything. Blade Maria's flames are hot enough to make Brook wary, who was able to tank the heat from Nami and Big Mom's lightning, meaning that if she were to even touch it, it would do a lot of damage.

With Tsunade's scaling into 6-C granting her a 3x AP advantage, which while not enough to oneshot with every strike, would still significantly harm Maria. Plus her abilities which aren't easily counter-able by Maria, such as her chakra blades which would allow Tsunade to bypass the physical durability of Maria and directly attack her tendons and muscles, such as her inter-costal muscles which are use for breathing, this can be used to cause the opponent to pass and eventually die from lack of oxygen to the brain.

Black Maria is able to use her webs to defend so I doubt Tsunade would be able to land hits easily. Even any attack were blocked by Black Maria's webs, she can just set them ablaze, even further damaging Tsunade and evaporating Katsuyu's acid.

She can also use Lightning Style to rewire one's nervous system, this causes the signals of one's nervous system to become crossed, messing up one's ability to even move correctly. For an example of how this works, the act of trying to lift your right arm would instead cause your left arm to lift because the signals of your right and left arm are switched.

Kenbun grants instinctive reaction, so this would force her body to move in the correct way to avoid and defend agaisnt attacks regardless as it's not dependent on her sending signals to specific parts of her body.

 

[Deceived3596]

"Non-Natural" is in reference to Marco's Phoenix Flames which accelerate his natural healing.

KT explained it in your own thread:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/one-piece-regeneration-negation-downgrade-crying-chopper-edition.144133/#post-5193776

Alright.

My contention with this would be the mechanic differences between both abilities. Marco's Devil Fruit accelerates his healing process through unnatural means, such as his Devil Fruit. While Tsunade accelerates her healing process through natural means, by using chakra, Tsunade can stimulate all proteins within her body, causing her cells to divide beyond normal limits.

While both abilities enhance one's natural healing factor, one is through an unnatural means like a Devil Fruit while the other is through a natural means, like stimulating the proteins within one's body to increase cell division.

I don't believe Haki would negate the latter because of that reason.

 

[Deceived3596]

It would. Marco's regeneration does the same.

I explained why both are mechanically different, and such wouldn't allow Maria to negate Tsunade's regeneration here.

Black Maria's flames are coated on her weapon, and it continuously makes flames, so this won't do anything. Blade Maria's flames are hot enough to make Brook wary, who was able to tank the heat from Nami and Big Mom's lightning, meaning that if she were to even touch it, it would do a lot of damage.

It definitely would do something, being capable of continually making flames wouldn't then cause flames which are dispersed to have not actually been dispersed.

Can you provide reasoning as to why I should believe the reason why Brook was wary of those flames was because of the flame's temperature rather than the AP generated by them? I don't even necessarily agree that Brook was "wary" of them in the first place, but for the sake of the argument, I'll assume that he was.

Black Maria is able to use her webs to defend so I doubt Tsunade would be able to land hits easily. Even any attack were blocked by Black Maria's webs, she can just set them ablaze, even further damaging Tsunade and evaporating Katsuyu's acid.

Tsunade, through Katsuyu's insane AOE with her acid, can use that advantage to increase her chances of landing hits of Maria. I haven't seen much evidence that Maria has an actual good counter towards the acid from the slug.

I would argue against the flames burning away the poison, so we should debate about that first before arguing down that path.

Kenbun grants instinctive reaction, so this would force her body to move in the correct way to avoid and defend agaisnt attacks regardless as it's not dependent on her sending signals to specific parts of her body.

She doesn't even have Intermediate Kenbun on her profile, so she wouldn't have IR in this fight. Regardless of my contentions with the idea that IR would bypass the crossed signals created by Tsunade's Lightning Style.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

OP is updated again.

 

[Eseseso]

I wish I could vote for Black Maria, but I vote for Tsunade (who mind you is also incredibly hot IMO, I just like OP over Naruto) FRA.

It doesn't help that BM is pretty arrogant, which could give Best Gilf some openings.

 

[Stryker861]

also voting tsunade for decieved's reasons

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

The momentum has shifted!

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

bump

 

[TauanVictor]

Tsunade FRA

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Updated the OP.

 

[Godernet]

Tsunade for Deceived's reasons

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

And that's grace.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Just checking back, I don't think any results were added. I can go ahead and do that, and we can see about getting a thread moderator to close this.