One Piece Regeneration Negation Downgrade (Crying Chopper Edition)

[Deceived3596]

So after my previous downgrades with NNT and Black Clover I’ve decided to set my sights on One Piece for a thread or two.

This thread is specifically downgrading the Regeneration Negation which Armament Haki grants its users, now I'm not downgrading the level which it can negate or removing the ability entirely. I’m only downgrading the ability’s functionality since it doesn’t necessarily negate regeneration in the context which would give it a complete, concrete rating.

So with this needed explanation, let’s get onto my reasoning why i believe this should be downgraded.

Giving Context Behind Marco’s Feat.​

Now we currently give Armament Haki users (At least Mid: likely Mid-High) Regeneration Negation given the fact Marco wasn’t able to regenerate from Garp’s punch during their interaction despite the fact he was able to regenerate his head being destroyed by Kizaru instantly.

Now this is completely fine in my opinion, my problem however, comes in when you realize Marco doesn’t actually keep this bruise he gained against Garp for long after this interaction, he eventually regenerates this bruise, which is consistently shown so it can’t really be argued as Oda misdrawing Marco.

The amount of time that it took for Marco to regenerate from said wound is ultimately unknown but given the fact we definitely know it was at least regenerated after the time-skip, which is about 2 years and some change. We do know concretely however that Marco still had this bruise days/weeks after said encounter with Garp, so the ability is combat-applicable.

Given this context, the ability is still combat-applicable in most vs matches, it just doesn’t actually negate someone’s regeneration entirely, it just increases the amount of time it takes for someone to regenerate from said wound. Similar to how we treat Naruto’s Rasenshuriken.

Conclusions​

Armament Haki’s Regeneration Negation needs to be downgraded to limited, and the ability gets reworked into it not being able to completely negate someone’s regeneration but rather massively slows down their regeneration.

---

Agree - Eminiteable, Arc7Kuroi

Disagree -

Neutral -

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yeah this is still combat applicable but I agree with the notion of more accurately representing the ability.

 

[KingTempest]

No

The context of the ability is nullifying the amped regen, or added on healing factor of a victim.

Naruto amplifying his healing with chakra per se.

A few examples.

Naruto Uzumaki, who most of us are familiar with, uses 9 Tails chakra to amp his healing factor, yet that's not his regular healing and that's while amped.
Haki would negate that.

Majin Buu's regeneration is his base regeneration which isn't amped. It's just... really good.
Haki wouldn't negate that.

Even though I disagree with Mansherry's "regeneration" which can heal trauma, inanimate objects, etc., this is pretty much how it would work.


Would it be limited?

The regular healing factor of the victim is still there, which is why Marco healed it at the rate of the average person, but he couldn't heal it with his regenerative devil fruit

Someone like Majin Buu, Piccolo, or Wolverine who naturally regenerates and already have high healing factors without any additions on their being wouldn't be negated.

No downgrade is required, and the given context on the ability is enough

 

[Deceived3596]

The context you've given doesn't debunk the fact Marco regenerated from the bruise, which is my main contention. It wouldn't be complete regeneration negation if it doesn't completely negate someone's regeneration. It would only be limited. Which is what i'm proposing.

 

[KingTempest]

The context you've given doesn't debunk the fact Marco regenerated from the bruise, which is my main contention. It wouldn't be complete, regeneration negation if it doesn't completely negate someone's regeneration.

wait it doesn't already say limited???

nvm then

 

[Deceived3596]

wait it doesn't already say limited???

Nope.

 

[Eminiteable]

Now this is completely fine in my opinion, my problem however, comes in when you realize Marco doesn’t actually keep this bruise he gained against Garp for long after this interaction, he eventually regenerates this bruise, which is consistently shown so it can’t really be argued as Oda misdrawing Marco.

What's up with these links?

 

[Deceived3596]

What's up with these links?

They work completely fine for me, what's happening on your end?

 

[Eminiteable]

They work completely fine for me, what's happening on your end?

Nvm, I agree with the OP

 

[LordGinSama]

Looks good.

 

[theultimate5105]

Agree FRA

 

[Ryuga21]

I disagree, Marco didn't regenerate the wound that Garp gave him by supernatural means, but naturally, over quite a while, so yes, his regeneration ability guaranteed by the fruit was neged (Also, it's curious that Marco started wearing glasses after the timeskip when he didn't before Marineford, and it doesn't make sense for someone with a fruit like his to suffer eye problems). Btw, that's not the only regeneration negation feat of the verse, Kaido was also affected by this against Zoro and Oden.

The supernatural ability has definitely been nullified, now, Haki doesn't seem to nullify the human body's natural regenerative abilities (Otherwise, all haki users would be constantly denying the other's regeneration and recovery would be impossible, Luffy would never be able to recover from the beating he took from Katakuri for example)

 

[theultimate5105]

I disagree, Marco didn't regenerate the wound that Garp gave him by supernatural means, but naturally, over quite a while, so yes, his regeneration ability guaranteed by the fruit was neged (Also, it's curious that Marco started wearing glasses after the timeskip when he didn't before Marineford, and it doesn't make sense for someone with a fruit like his to suffer eye problems). Btw, that's not the only regeneration negation feat of the verse, Kaido was also affected by this against Zoro and Oden.

The supernatural ability has definitely been nullified, now, Haki doesn't seem to nullify the human body's natural regenerative abilities (Otherwise, all haki users would be constantly denying the other's regeneration and recovery would be impossible, Luffy would never be able to recover from the beating he took from Katakuri for example)

For Kaido they only gave him a scar which is not full on regen neg anymore

 

[speedster352]

I agree fra even though I am not a fan of downgrade threads

 

[TioKill]

Uhhh, isn't it just natural cellular regeneration like any normal human at that point? Garp negated his magical regeneration, just not his natural one (If he could, it would be pretty broken given it's at a cellular level). Should still be Regen Negation.

 

[SnookB]

I was gonna agree at first but after a quick search-- I'll start some discussion.

One- bruises don't leave scars to begin with. Especially surface level ones that don't involve gashes or a break in the skin, which is basically what Marco's injury looks like in every panel it's shown.

Second
This isn't Marco's supernatural regen nor is it his Zoan recovery from what we know. Kaido's a similiar case where he sustains a scar from powerful enough haki twice and is unable to regenerate it despite showing the ability to regenerate from a larger wound on another instance.

The natural body's healing is just basic level cellular recovery over long periods of time that even us humans possess, so unless humans have limited regeneration for that shared function then I'm not sure I agree based on "the character healed far later at a regular human rate so it's still regen" when regeneration is very specifically on the wiki is noted:
"Regeneration, often referred to as a healing factor, is the ability to heal from wounds at an accelerated rate"

If the healing is baseline and natural, then it's just regular cellular healing, not regeneration. It isn't accelerated or superhuman, so not regen at least based on how the wiki notes it. If haki takes away that accelerated rate regeneration, then it's just regular regen neg.

 

[Damage3245]

Haki has never been stated to negate a person's ability to heal from injuries or regenerate.

Kaido having scars is because regeneration does not mean flawless regeneration. He can heal at an accelerated rate and still get scars on his body from large enough injuries because scars are just part of the healing process.

 

[SnookB]

Kaido having scars is because regeneration does not mean flawless regeneration.

The issue is, it's been SHOWN to be flawless.

He can heal at an accelerated rate and still get scars on his body from large enough injuries because scars are just part of the healing process.

Stop using "large injuries" as a factor. The size of an injury was never the factor. The x4 togen totsuka was a bigger wound than Zoro's and it still didn't have good enough haki to negate Kaido's regen.

 

[Damage3245]

Stop using "large injuries" as a factor. The size of an injury was never the factor. The x4 togen totsuka was a bigger wound than Zoro's and it still didn't have good enough haki to negate Kaido's regen.

Because it was too shallow.

 

[SnookB]

Because it was too shallow.

Shallow in that context is different. He called Luffy's haki usage the same thing. And again, their wound was visibly bigger than Zoro's slash.

 

[SnookB]

Gets hit with togen totsuka>> "It is too shallow" He's not specifying the WOUND is shallow.
Same case is here>> "It was too shallow" when failing to damage Kaido. He's referring to his haki.
Having context on it with Luffy's words changes it altogether.

As for area covering
Here's the scabbards wound
Here's Zoro's
The only difference is the 'shallowness' which in one context is vague and in the other refers exclusively to haki output/usage.

 

[Damage3245]

Those refer to different things. Luffy is talking about his Haki which can go into objects to cause internal damage.

 

[SnookB]

Those refer to different things. Luffy is talking about his Haki which can go into objects to cause internal damage.

The first has literally no context. He just says "it" is too shallow then notes they don't have the necessary power to even open the old wound. Shallow in that context isn't referring to wounds in either. Luffy was STILL damaging Kaido and drawing blood and he called it shallow despite that.
Checked the anime just now- he just says "TOO SHALLOW" and doesn't specify there either.

Unelss literal internal destruction which caused Kaido to FEEL THREATENED and dodge is all "shallow" anything then idk. It was shallow because it wasn't good enough to leave lasting damage.

 

[Deceived3596]

One- bruises don't leave scars to begin with. Especially surface level ones that don't involve gashes or a break in the skin, which is basically what Marco's injury looks like in every panel it's shown.

Bruises to still leave damage inherently, since bruises are damaged blood cells beneath one's skin.

If Marco is capable of regenerating from that then it wouldn't be a complete regeneration negation ability. Since characters can still regenerate damage over an ultimately unspecified amount of time.

Second
This isn't Marco's supernatural regen nor is it his Zoan recovery from what we know. Kaido's a similiar case where he sustains a scar from powerful enough haki twice and is unable to regenerate it despite showing the ability to regenerate from a larger wound on another instance.

I have a question, what's the reasoning behind why we assume Haki can completely negate "non-natural" regeneration but only slightly negate "natural" regeneration? since nothing I've seen the Haki page exactly explains this nor are scans given to show this is the case. It seems like a massive assumption given Haki's general interaction with Devil Fruits. But i definitely could be wrong so if you have a scan or in-depth explanation why we assume such a thing that would be appreciated.

The Kaido example is literally Limited Regeneration Negation as well, since leaving scars denotes someone regenerated from the attack inherently. This is similar to the NNT example which I've rightfully downgraded to Limited.

The natural body's healing is just basic level cellular recovery over long periods of time that even us humans possess, so unless humans have limited regeneration for that shared function then I'm not sure I agree based on "the character healed far later at a regular human rate so it's still regen" when regeneration is very specifically on the wiki is noted:
"Regeneration, often referred to as a healing factor, is the ability to heal from wounds at an accelerated rate"

We actually have no idea if Marco naturally regenerated from the bruise sustained against Garp or eventually used his Devil Fruit regeneration to heal the wound. It's an assumption on your part which isn't necessarily backed up by anything except arguably some scenes which also have multiple interpretations behind them, what makes your assumption greater comparative to mine in this instance? because all i'm arguing is that Haki just increases the amount of time it takes for someone to regenerate from wounds dealt by it. And i can use the exact same evidence/scans as you used to assert your claims.

I personally believe that my interpretation holds truer compared to your interpretation since nothing in the series actually shows complete regeneration negation, with the only other example being Kaido, who was able to regenerate from said attack, it just caused permanent scarring. Which supports my assertion of the ability being limited.

If the healing is baseline and natural, then it's just regular cellular healing, not regeneration. It isn't accelerated or superhuman, so not regen at least based on how the wiki notes it. If haki takes away that accelerated rate regeneration, then it's just regular regen neg.

Addressed this above.

 

[SnookB]

Bruises to still leave damage inherently, since bruises are damaged blood cells beneath one's skin.

If Marco is capable of regenerating from that then it wouldn't be a complete regeneration negation ability. Since characters can still regenerate damage over an ultimately unspecified amount of time.

And they did exactly that. Just not forever. Even us humans don't sustain bruises for longer than a couple of days to few weeks at most.

We actually have no idea if Marco naturally regenerated from the bruise sustained against Garp or eventually used his Devil Fruit regeneration to heal the wound.

He uses his ability afterwards and we still don't see him healed. The guy still has bandages all the way to Ace and WB's funeral. He gets tagged by garp in 567. Gets pierced by Kizaru in 568 and 569.
Yet after his cuffs are removed when he stops Akainu, the holes in his chest are nowhere to be seen but the bruise on the left side of his face is still there. The regular attacks from Kizaru were fully recovered, but the bruise on his face isn't. It's made clear that despite regenerating the bruise from a haki'd up fist had traces left while four holes in his body were completely gone.

The Kaido example is literally Limited Regeneration Negation as well, since leaving scars denotes someone regenerated from the attack inherently. This is similar to the NNT example which I've rightfully downgraded to Limited.

In this case both shouldn't be treated as limited imo.
Negating "accelerated regeneration" and forcing a character to heal as naturally as a human would SHOULD be regeneration negation.
Again, "regeneration" by wiki's standards is accelerated healing, if that's taken away then the body resorts to gradually healing wounds over a long period of time like any other person's would. That's not regeneration. By that logic every single character real or not should have regeneration because everyone heals from wounds eventually.

 

[Damage3245]

By that logic every single character real or not should have regeneration because everyone heals from wounds eventually.

They do. It's just that if you don't have at least "Low" regeneration, it's not worth indexing because as you said, everyone has it. Would be like giving everyone "Jumping" as an ability for people who can do normal jumps.

 

[SnookB]

They do. It's just that if you don't have at least "Low" regeneration, it's not worth indexing because as you said, everyone has it. Would be like giving everyone "Jumping" as an ability for people who can do normal jumps.

If that's the case regen negging shouldn't even be "limited" unless we see it get resisted by regeneration of the lowest level, or slowed but not slowed to regular levels. If a character heals a wound at an accelerated rate, gets hit with regen neg and their healing is slowed, but STILL accelerated by human standards, then it's limited regen neg.
If they're forced to basically human levels of recovery we shouldn't treat it as limited at all.

 

[Deceived3596]

And they did exactly that. Just not forever. Even us humans don't sustain bruises for longer than a couple of days to few weeks at most.

You do understand that's proving my point regarding it not being "complete" enough to be considered as just regeneration negation, rather a limited form of it?

He uses his ability afterwards and we still don't see him healed. The guy still has bandages all the way to Ace and WB's funeral. He gets tagged by garp in 567. Gets pierced by Kizaru in 568 and 569.
Yet after his cuffs are removed when he stops Akainu, the holes in his chest are nowhere to be seen but the bruise on the left side of his face is still there. The regular attacks from Kizaru were fully recovered, but the bruise on his face isn't. It's made clear that despite regenerating the bruise from a haki'd up fist had traces left while four holes in his body were completely gone.

Having bandages across his body doesn't inherently mean that hasn't healed from said bruises/injuries yet, especially since during Arc's and WB's funeral we directly see that the bruise he was given by Garp actually healed by then.

Him still being capable of using his Devil Fruit doesn't mean Garp's Haki didn't slow down the regeneration process of said Devil Fruit, i'm claiming that the healing process of Devil Fruit's are slowed down by Armament Haki, not that Garp's Haki completely nullified Marco's DF. The fact he was still capable of using his Devil Fruit but wasn't capable of instantly regenerating the damage isn't just evidence for your claim, it's also evidence for my claim as well.

In this case both shouldn't be treated as limited imo.
Negating "accelerated regeneration" and forcing a character to heal as naturally as a human would SHOULD be regeneration negation.
Again, "regeneration" by wiki's standards is accelerated healing, if that's taken away then the body resorts to gradually healing wounds over a long period of time like any other person's would. That's not regeneration. By that logic every single character real or not should have regeneration because everyone heals from wounds eventually.

Both should, and multiple mods (including KT) agreed that it should (for the NNT example at least).

That's an interpretation of the evidence we're given, this isn't as concrete as you're claiming it is right now, it's completely up to interpretations and i'm only saying that i believe my interpretations require less assumptions comparative to your interpretations. That's it. And you haven't really proven why your interpretation of these feats is superior to mine.

 

[SnookB]

You do understand that's proving my point regarding it not being "complete" enough to be considered as just regeneration negation, rather a limited form of it?

Not at all. Again, by the definiton of Regeneration that doesn't count as regeneration.

Having bandages across his body doesn't inherently mean that hasn't healed from said bruises/injuries yet, especially since during Arc's and WB's funeral we directly see that the bruise he was given by Garp actually healed by then.

Bruises can heal that fast naturally though, that's the thing. You can sustain a bruise anywhere from 2 days to weeks, and considering we don't have a timeframe there aside from Luffy having his surgery and waking back up aside from TWO WHOLE WEEKS. And judging by the fact that Luffy was just starting to have his mental breakdown, it's safe to say that the funeral scene wasn't too far from that as well since it, the garp scene and Luffy's thing are seemingly happening at the same time on chapter 590.
Two whole weeks is far more than enough for one to heal a bruise even for most humans. Not like Oda would go out his way to draw skin discoloration or the details of an otherwise still healing bruise even if that were the case. We just know it took two weeks for us to see him fully clean.

Him still being capable of using his Devil Fruit doesn't mean Garp's Haki didn't slow down the regeneration process of said Devil Fruit, i'm claiming that the healing process of Devil Fruit's are slowed down by Armament Haki, not that Garp's Haki completely nullified Marco's DF.

I'm saying the wound from Garp's HAKI couldn't be recovered, as opposed to literal holes in his body. It just shows that you can heal piercing wounds in seconds but are unable recover even a regular bruise from a haki punch. That proves that haki's injuries are sustained while other non-haki ones are healed. I never said his ability being used is weird, just that we see it heal non-haki wounds just fine, while the bruise stays.

That's an interpretation of the evidence we're given, this isn't as concrete as you're claiming it is right now, it's completely up to interpretations and i'm only saying that i believe my interpretations require less assumptions comparative to your interpretations. That's it. And you haven't really proven why your interpretation of these feats is superior to mine.

I guess it does come down to interpertation tbh.
You think it's limited regen neg because wounds heal at a regular rate.
I think it's not limited because healing at a regular rate isn't "regeneration" to begin with.
I'll concede on this, since accepting that interpertation in the first place would add a whole thing to the regen rule and that sounds like a headache

 

[Damage3245]

I'm saying the wound from Garp's HAKI couldn't be recovered, as opposed to literal holes in his body. It just shows that you can heal piercing wounds in seconds but are unable recover even a regular bruise from a haki punch. That proves that haki's injuries are sustained while other non-haki ones are healed. I never said his ability being used is weird, just that we see it heal non-haki wounds just fine, while the bruise stays.

Did we ever see Marco attempt and fail to heal a Haki injury?

 

[Eminiteable]

Did we ever see Marco attempt and fail to heal a Haki injury?

His zoan form is constantly covered in his blue flames which are stated in his VC to instantly regenerate wounds, that didn't happen with Garp's punch.

 

[Damage3245]

His zoan form is constantly covered in his blue flames which are stated in his VC to instantly regenerate wounds, that didn't happen with Garp's punch.

IIRC he went out of his Zoan form pretty quickly after the punch and never went back into it for the rest of the arc.

 

[Eminiteable]

IIRC he went out of his Zoan form pretty quickly after the punch and never went back into it for the rest of the arc.

He was punched by Garp in Zoan Form, returned to Base to show that the wound didn't instantly heal.

 

[SnookB]

Did we ever see Marco attempt and fail to heal a Haki injury?

Yet after his cuffs are removed when he stops Akainu, the holes in his chest are nowhere to be seen but the bruise on the left side of his face is still there.

His flames don't focus on singular injuries from what we saw, they just kinda.. naturally undo whatever harm there is since they're always active. Kizaru's laser injuries are gone, but Garp's bruise isn't.

 

[That_moron2]

As a wanker I disagree. Just kidding I agree.

 

[speedster352]

Bump

 

[SnookB]

... So, with Egghead revealing all devil fruits are DNA instilled things that are literal human evolutions per-fruit, does this go a full circle or what

 

[Deceived3596]

I have no idea what's going on in this thread, this shit mad old.

 

[SnookB]

****** same

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

After reading this it's pretty clear per our standards of the definition this is full blown Regen Negation

He completely Negged Marco's superhuman regeneration to where he had to heal it by normal means (IE natural healing process)

The Supernatural regeneration of Marco was completely negated which left only his normal human healing process

Big disagree for me