BLACK CLOVER CRT: LEAVING LIGHT IN THE DUST (FINAL PART)

[Testarossa002]

To the best of my knowledge, these multipliers were accepted for AP/Dura
Why the skepticism now that it's being proposed for speed?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Look at what transpires in the Dragonball thread linked earlier for an idea and lets leave things as it is now.

 

[GTsek]

I think KT, Pain and Fluffy's arguments make sense here, so I disagree, it looks like a very high increase based on a single scan and a single calc and has no feat to support the scale.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I literally made an entire CRT full of scans on it and it's belittled to just "one scan"... 4800x is not a very high increase, this just shows how subjective this policy is as anybody can glance at it, detest it, and claim it is "very high". Since 4800x is not a "very" high increase, shit like the importance of the multiplier to the plot is still very much valid as the policy itself states.

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

GOH multiplier is literally confirmed

obviously I was referring to WHY this would have no support, as this is a Black Clover thread and not a GOH thread. Holy hell.

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

What you mean?

Obviously I'm referring to the Black Clover multipliers in this Black Clover thread. Not about GOH multiplier. He just said that BC multipliers had no support. Which is a claim with no argument provided.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

The most annoying part of this thread is me bringing up GoH and how they are good narrative and scaling wise only for it to be used against me as though both multiplier values are the same and require the same level of scrutiny…

 

[GTsek]

What I mean is that a single scan about Zora's multiplier is used to stack multipliers. And the entire scale derives from a single 2c calc and goes up to 12000c. In addition to being a stack of multipliers, there is also no feat that supports scaling. GoH is different, there is literally a direct statement from a 250,000x multiplier and it has feats to support.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

What I mean is that a single scan about Zora's multiplier is used to stack multipliers. And the entire scale derives from a single 2c calc and goes up to 12000c. In addition to being a stack of multipliers, there is also no feat that supports scaling. GoH is different, there is literally a direct statement from a 250,000x multiplier and it has feats to support.

1. A single scan about Zora's multiplier is not what is used to stack multipliers. All these scans are.

2. I did not compare GoH and Black Clover in any way to undermine their multiplier, in fact, I even implied they too were good narrative and scaling-wise. Instead, they was used against me as though I attacked them. so why are you telling me GoH is different? (FYI, a statement is not enough as the policy states for that high of a multiplier but GoH has other supporting evidence as well)

3. All the evidence of my accepted multipliers can be used as grounds for a 4800x increase from the FTL calc. And as said before, it is not just one scan but many scans highlighting a diverse mechanism and the importance of those multipliers to the plot (not only showing how one character blitzed another, turned around a blitz or kept up fast character). I was not senselessly stacking multipliers why is this so hard to understand?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Essentially, there's a difference between one 250,000x multiplier and stacking a ton of different multipliers. The whole "doubling magic = doubling AP and speed" (which I'm not even too sure of at this point, because Asta's the only one to ever call it "doubling magic" and the guy can't even use magic) is then used on a butt-ton of multipliers to stack speed buffs.

And there's not a single calculation to support it.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Essentially, there's a difference between one 250,000x multiplier and stacking a ton of different multipliers. The whole "doubling magic = doubling AP and speed" (which I'm not even too sure of at this point, because Asta's the only one to ever call it "doubling magic" and the guy can't even use magic) is then used on a butt-ton of multipliers to stack speed buffs.

Again, I am not comparing both multipliers, why do we keep up bring this GoH shit up like it's a rebuttal?


There are far too many showings of Magic boosts being proportional to speed boosts in Black Clover. Zora is simply one of them. I literally made a CRT on this.

And speaking of Zora... Asta who literally knows about Zora's ability, states he doubles magic. Zora does not even correct him and REINFORCES WHAT ASTA SAID… Zora literally tells Lucifero "All the magic I took... I'm gonna pay you back double". Ironically, Langris literally reacted to Zora by boosting his own magic. And it's not just Zora, Magna could literally fight equally with 50% Dante because Magna stole half of Dante's power.

And there's not a single calculation to support it.

...

For higher multipliers, like times 100 and above, the importance of stronger evidence, such as feats displaying power of a similar magnitude as the value the multiplier points to or the multipliers importance to the plot of the story, and a higher amount of evidence becomes increasingly necessary.

Why not what is bolded?
I stacked four more multipliers with more than enough evidence supporting those four but you will only accept it if there are calcs? Then change the policy to state only calcs are needed for a high multiplier to get accepted.

 

[CloverDragon03]

"All the magic I took... I'm gonna pay you back double".

Okay buddy now you're just lying, he says that all the magic he took in went to his fist, then says he's paying Lucifero back double. Notice the lack of him saying that the magic doubled is what goes into his fist.

Come on man, don't deliberately leave things out.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I wasn’t lying I accidentally left out “goes into my right fist” and it doesn’t change a thing. There is literally still no difference between that and what I said. What he is paying back double is the magic he took into his right fist.

 

[Antvasima]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Duedate8898 @CloverDragon03 @Dereck03 @KingTempest @Damage3245 @DemonGodMitchAubin

Arnoldstone18 told me that there is a disagreement here. Can somebody explain the two sides of the argument please?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

The CRT is proposing to upgrade the BC cast to MFTL+ by using accepted multipliers and a large scaling chain.
The issue is that the verse has no backing in the form of feats to support an increase of around 6000x times over the only FTL feat (2 c) in the verse.

 

[Damage3245]

To use an analogy, it would be like if the verse's best calc puts a character at the speed of sound, but with the kind of multipliers & scaling chains being used here, it ends up at Mach 4819.

Without any supporting MHS feats.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I agree about that that seems unreliable. My apologies, Arnold.

 

[Panache_x]

Okay. I agree about that that seems unreliable. My apologies, Arnold.

I think that's a very streamlined version of the entire presentation you're giving your thoughts from
It is fundamentally clarified that the Doubling if Magic is what led to the Doubling of Speed with Zora
That is what the author is narratively going with as it is 100% logical that increases of energy would lead to a proportional increase in speed

Each increase in speed is strictly well presented that each time it happens the opponent is always unable to keep up without a considerable Manipulation or increase on their path aswell
The author made use of logical percentage implying how he views this increase to be and doesn't fail to depict massive speed increase with each magic increase
Another Magic increase was a crystal clear 1+1 fusion but the author went further to describe this 1+1 was greater than just the addition of both hence immediately rendered their opponent's speed inferior to the extent of stating he can't keep up
Each Multiplier are heavily mathematically and mechanically presented in the plot and impacts heavily on the series
The idea of needing fan calc before it can be validated is Unconventional
The author is not necessarily inclined to present that as most don't scale from that perspective but from the perspective of their narrative and simple presentation

He has layed down the Mechanics of the increase
The need for fan validation isn't still something that should be necessary for progression

 

[Antvasima]

To use an analogy, it would be like if the verse's best calc puts a character at the speed of sound, but with the kind of multipliers & scaling chains being used here, it ends up at Mach 4819.

Without any supporting MHS feats.

I think that's a very streamlined version of the entire presentation you're giving your thoughts from
It is fundamentally clarified that the Doubling if Magic is what led to the Doubling of Speed with Zora
That is what the author is narratively going with as it is 100% logical that increases of energy would lead to a proportional increase in speed

Each increase in speed is strictly well presented that each time it happens the opponent is always unable to keep up without a considerable Manipulation or increase on their path aswell
The author made use of logical percentage implying how he views this increase to be and doesn't fail to depict massive speed increase with each magic increase
Another Magic increase was a crystal clear 1+1 fusion but the author went further to describe this 1+1 was greater than just the addition of both hence immediately rendered their opponent's speed inferior to the extent of stating he can't keep up
Each Multiplier are heavily mathematically and mechanically presented in the plot and impacts heavily on the series
The idea of needing fan calc before it can be validated is Unconventional
The author is not necessarily inclined to present that as most don't scale from that perspective but from the perspective of their narrative and simple presentation

He has layed down the Mechanics of the increase
The need for fan validation isn't still something that should be necessary for progression

@DarkDragonMedeus @Duedate8898 @CloverDragon03 @Dereck03 @KingTempest @Damage3245 @DemonGodMitchAubin

It seems best if you try to reach an agreement here then.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

In CRT 1: I proved that a magic boost is also also a speed boost, if I was asked if it was linear then I will show them examples that they are linear such as Zora's magic boosting ability which doubles magic to double the speed or Magna's ability which strips both fighters of their magic, shares it equally so they can keep up with each other. I told everyone that I will make more CRTs in the future. This CRT was accepted.

In CRT 2: I brought up four low multipliers, but only three are related here. they are extremely important to Black Clover's plot. The multipliers stem from Devil Fusion and Devil Manifestation. Even though they are two low multipliers (2x 2x and 3x) I provided my case that each multiplier showed a reasonable increase in speed. This CRT was accepted.

In CRT 3: I brought one large multiplier (100x) and I brought more than enough evidence to show how consistent it was to the plot. I showed many instances of reasonable consistent speed progression. This CRT was accepted.


The total multiplier is 4800x the best calc. The best calc is an FTL calc (2.49c) from very early on the series and the 4800x stretches from so early on to the final arc with extreme consistency.

For higher multipliers, like times 100 and above, the importance of stronger evidence, such as feats displaying power of a similar magnitude as the value the multiplier points to or the multipliers importance to the plot of the story, and a higher amount of evidence becomes increasingly necessary.

According to our policy, for higher multipliers (4800x) I have shown:

1. A number of pieces of evidence showing a consistent speed progression
2. Each of my proposed multipliers are important to the plot in ways that are not just "this character scales to that character" and they have unique mechanisms.
- Devil Power is required for the Tree of Qlipoth to function properly and it is used by two families, Devil Manifestation itself has two mechanisms within itself known as Malevolent Femcation (which requires the souls of 3 powerful female sexes for its manifestation) and using the Tree of Qlipoth itself as a vessle. According to the plot these manifestations could not finish and these devils' manifestations were incomplete as they yearn for the rest of they magic that rest within the rest of their bodies.



I am not stacking multipliers indiscriminately, I have followed our policy to the T. I have provided so much for a 4,800x multiplier. Why are my accepted multipliers STILL NOT APPLICABLE? Why am I given one way when there are literally more than one ways for an extremely consistent high multiplier (4800x) to get accepted?

 

[Damage3245]

Personally, I am not voting against this CRT. I'm neutral on it.

 

[Nierre]

Frankly, I'm neutral as well.

He has laid out his arguments, and made 3 separate CRTs which were each accepted. The actual calc was very very early in the series, and the characters in the verse have gotten FAR FAR faster than that point. I can 100% see the scrutiny though.

 

[Nierre]

Also I think this thread is likely related to this multiplier clarification thread by DT

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I gave the OP permission to speak on the thread and we may need to possibly get more generalized outcomes from that thread before making a final decision here IMO.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I'm also neutral. On one hand, I understand the argument from the OP, but at the same time, I'm not convinced there's enough evidence to suggest that speed is directly linear with magic amount. Dante being 500x faster than Base Magna doesn't really seem to be supported considering Dante was able to notice, but not react to one of Magna's attacks.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm also neutral. On one hand, I understand the argument from the OP, but at the same time, I'm not convinced there's enough evidence to suggest that speed is directly linear with magic amount. Dante being 500x faster than Base Magna doesn't really seem to be supported considering Dante was able to notice, but not react to one of Magna's attacks.

In fairness, I believe Dante was off-guard. What he noticed was Zora's Ash Magic, not Magna's spell

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I'm also neutral. On one hand, I understand the argument from the OP,

Thank you for understanding,

but at the same time, I'm not convinced there's enough evidence to suggest that speed is directly linear with magic amount. Dante being 500x faster than Base Magna doesn't really seem to be supported considering Dante was able to notice, but not react to one of Magna's attacks.

There are two interactions between Magna and Dante before Soul Chain Death Match

1. Right before Soul Chain Death Match we see that Dante instructed Magna to hit him as many times as he wanted. And we see that Magna gladly took that offer to initiate soul chain death match.

2. When Magna first arrived at the scene he caught Dante off guard with a smoke screen attack. The smoke screen is probably from Ash Magic.

Keep in mind Dante was taking a number of attacks from a far stronger opponent than Magna so it makes sense for Dante to not care enough to dodge weak attacks from Magna that didn't even damage him.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

People is voting neutral= Possibly MFTL+

All happy

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Thanks again everyone for understanding

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to everybody who are helping out here.

 

[GTsek]

I reread the OP's arguments but still stand by my vote. While I understand the OP's reasoning, I disagree because I don't think there is a solid support for an increase of this magnitude. I also don't think the argument that the characters were already FTL at the beginning of the story is a strong enough argument.

I know my vote is irrelevant but I leave my opinion here.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

At this point I only hope that your assessment is based on the policy as I outlined and not pure subjectiveness.

 

[GTsek]

About the policy, it talks about multipliers above 100x, my interpretation of it is that it's talking about multipliers directly declared as being 100x or above. That doesn't exist here, but rather a large stack of multipliers that inflates a result by over 6000x. Honestly (and no offense meant) all I see in your arguments is juggling to try to say that it's not a stack, but it is.

I still think it needs some support. And I don't trying to be toxic... but if it was some "Jump Big Three" verse both the multipliers and the scale would be rejected...

 

[Panache_x]

Evidence for AP is one thing as that is clearly depicted by destructiveness
But Speed, that shouldn't be a necessity when the verse has shown zero Inconsistency and a wild narrative speed increment
Y'all opposition is still on the basis of needing a fan calc to support narrative and Author's implication

 

[Arnoldstone18]

About the policy, it talks about multipliers above 100x, my interpretation of it is that it's talking about multipliers directly declared as being 100x or above. That doesn't exist here, but rather a large stack of multipliers that inflates a result by over 6000x. Honestly (and no offense meant) all I see in your arguments is juggling to try to say that it's not a stack, but it is.

I still think it needs some support. And I don't trying to be toxic... but if it was some "Jump Big Three" verse both the multipliers and the scale would be rejected...

smh...

1. You can not interpret a policy outside of what it clearly states.

2. You are still making untrue claims about my argument. Almost like you never read it.

I do not appreciate false claims on my argument. This is a 4800x multiplier, stop exaggerating. I never said it was not a stack, I said it is not an indiscriminate/senseless one because they are multipliers that are unique and vastly important to the plot in more ways than simply powerscaling. So I am obviously offended by your post.

Please read the arguments that I have meticulously outlined and make a proper assessment, otherwise, spare me from your reply.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the staff conclusions here so far?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

So what are the staff conclusions here so far?

All staff input are neutral since you arrived

DarkDragonMedeus is waiting for this thread to conclude to give an input.

From what I've seen, that thread seems to have at least 2 staff agreements so far.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. This thread seems to be stuck in limbo for the moment then.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I'm afraid so,

I'm currently waiting for Dereck03's response too.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I think you can officially put me down for supporting the upgrade. It really is pretty solid all things considered