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black bulls, VS seven tealy sins (nanatsuno taisai)

Okay, let's talk about recombination magic, because some of my points above were reliant on this.

Throughout this whole thread, we have been assuming the Black Bulls would all be attacking in the open, much like how most battles in NNT take place in, but this is out of character. Ever since the beginning of the elves' invasion arc, up until now, the Black Bulls fight and attack from within the inside of their own based, which is manipulated by Henry's Recombination Magic, which can turn the base into what is basically a giant mecha - The Raging Black Bull is listed as having Large Size Type 1. The Black Bulls stay inside their base, while Vanessa casts Red Thread of Fate, and using the spell to protect the base from taking any damage. The members can launch attacks from within the base, because Henry can recombine it into having cannons, which we actively see them use throughout the elves' invasion arc. With these cannons, we often see them use combined magic spells, or use Asta as the projectile, which can work well because of spatial magic and thread magic used in a team work strategy. Gordon, Gray, and Gauche can also work together with their own group strategies as well, as well as Noelle, Luck, and Magna. the only times we see them fight from not within inside the base is when Henry is low on mana, which is not going to happen in this case, most likely, because Charmy is there. Because the members are enclosed in the base, Merlin would probably not be able to use BFR successfully unless she went inside the base and then found the members of the Black Bulls, and Ban would also not be able to hurt them even if Vanessa is BFR'd and the other members are weakened by Hunter Fest: Ban would also need to go inside the base and find them and Merlin would not be able to help because her teleport cannot be casted again for another 10 seconds. The brief cast time during which she is vulnerable would be a problem, because the inside of the base also changes, not just the outside, thanks to the recombination magic. Besides, getting inside the base in the first place would not be smart because both the outside and inside are likely to be covered all over the place by combination spell traps set by Zora and other members, and the members could use clever strategizing to capture anyone who enters it, especially with the help of Asta, Gordon, Grey, and Gauche. Magna can use vanishing fire balls, and keep also in mind that the Black Bulls understand how their base works, but NNT does not. With this in mind, BFR and using Hunter Fest are strategies that would be too difficult to actually be useful in this battle, especially when there is so much that can be done to counter all of it because of the recombination magic aiding the strategies. Using Absolute Cancel could only stop the recombination magic for a moment, and Henry could just simply continue casting spells or just manipulating the base as he wishes, and besides, if it could stop it for a long time, Asta can reverse that, because the Demon-Destroyer sword would revert the cause-effect of Absolute Cancel working on the recombination magic, because Absolute Cancel is still a spell in the end, unlike what anti-magic is. In this regard, the same that applies to thread Red Thread of Fate applies to The Raging Black Bull. The base can also be split into parts if it needs to.
 
1. Imma need scans or just tell me the chapter number of Vanessa summoning Asta from the other side of the country as you claim. 2. Raging Black Bull isn't large enough to be seen from 360 miles so they won't know where they've been BFRed. 3. He absolutely needs to know where they've been BFRed. A homing spell won't work if they're out of his range. His magic can teleport hundreds of kilometres, but he can't sense hundred of kilometres around him, huge difference. 4. If you lack precise calcs and evidence that's not a problem for me really, you claim something I ask you for a calc and you don't provide it due to lack of evidence, is a win for me. 6. Merlin doesn't have to be familiar with the environment, that's the difference between her and Finral. She has both the spell range and sensory abilities. Merlin could feel the distortion around Edinburgh's castle from Liones, could feel the Albion in Camelot while being in Liones (distance is 186 miles iirc) 1. Don't need a scan to know you require physical strength to move and do every basic life function. 2. Them getting healed would only add to Ban's strength since their strength compared to Ban's limit would make Ban's abilitiy look limitless, . Also from what I could tell we use the most powerful versions during debates like these, which would include Ban's immortality, something no one can bypass. 1 and 2. The hearts can't be regenerated that's true but they have no idea where they're located. KI is a in-verse thing, NNT characters do not have KI nor do they give off life energy like they do in BC so don't know why you mentioned that. 3. Attacking from the Giant Bull would give the sins more time to react, a combo from Gauche and Yami's dimensional slash can be full countered by 6 of Mel's clones + the original. There was no cast time mentioned for Absolute Cancel and Counter vanish. 5. Not every attack is going to touch Meliodas, the ones that will aren't enough to bypass his endurance. Plus as stated very early in this debate Perfect Cube stops dimensional slash. 6. Demon darkness (what Mel uses to heal) is not magic, can't be negated by Asta. The 10C could use the darkness to fly right after being released from the seal despite stating their magic power is 0. Asta also needs to get very close in order to do anything relevant. His most powerful sword slash can be stopped with 1 finger from near noon Escanor or anyone near his tier, not to mention above.
 
All of them gathering in the giant mecha would be a bad thing since they become a target of teleportation, Asta's anti magic can't cover the entire mecha. Zora's spells and Magna's fireballs are useless since 4 of the sins are tiers above them. Firing Asta from a cannon would only get him killed faster seeing as how only 2 sins rely on magic attacks and the other 5 are straight up brawlers with a mix of magic attacks. Merlin can also stop time after a short while which non of them have a counter against. Even if it doesn't affect Asta he can't actually do anything on his own.
 
So:

Also from what I could tell we use the most powerful versions during debates like these, which would include Ban's immortality, something no one can bypass. 1 and 2.

SBA: The strongest canon version of a character is used, that we have listed. The strongest version being defined as the one with the highest tier; if there are multiple versions with the same tier, then the most recent version.

Therefore, we are using 6-B Ban, who doesn't have his regen and Immortality. You can use his other keys if you want but then he gets one-shot.

The hearts can't be regenerated that's true but they have no idea where they're located. KI is a in-verse thing, NNT characters do not have KI nor do they give off life energy like they do in BC so don't know why you mentioned that

Ki is life force, things like stamina counts. They will be able to read it.

Not every attack is going to touch Meliodas, the ones that will aren't enough to bypass his endurance. Plus as stated very early in this debate Perfect Cube stops dimensional slash

Every attack will, Mel only has relativistic+ reaction speed while half of the bulls have FTL attack speed. And as stated very early in this debate, Merlin will die in no time in this battle. Also, Asta reverts perfect cube.

Asta's anti magic can't cover the entire mecha

It can.

Zora's spells are useless since 4 of the sins are tiers above them.

Zora's reflection ignores AP. And before you say that's NFL, that's not since it only works against magic attacks. Zora can deflect Low 6-B magical attacks while being 9-B

Merlin can also stop time after a short while which non of them have a counter against.

Which takes 10 minutes, she dies before that happens anyway because speed isn't equal.

Even if it doesn't affect Asta he can't actually do anything on his own.

Reverting it with Causality Manipulation?
 
Actually Merlin doesn't have the time limit on her time spell, though she would probably still act like she does in this instance since Escanoar is still kicking and she normally doesn't use the spell.
 
You can't use one verse's mechanics on another because "it's life force, all verses have it". BC characters also manipulate that KI and use it for precog and such, which doesn't happen in NNT. The argument was Yami and Gauche firing their combo from the Mecha which puts an awful distance between the characters, a relativstic+ character should have no problem reacting to a FTL attack from that far away. Asta reverting Perfect Cube would mean him coming close to the sins/whoever is in Perfect Cube and seeing as how 4/7 sins can physically punch his head off it would be a bad idea. Scans for Asta's magic attack covering something the size of the Black Bulls base. I'm aware of Zora's hax and i never said "the sins gonna fire all out", Zora's traps on their own are useless in this battle if the opponent doesn't attack and with Merlin being here it would be easy to sense the traps and negate them. 10 minutes was her deliberately postponing the spell, in one of the futures against Cath she did it much faster (unfortunately stil no timeframe, but non of the BC can bypass Petfect Cube which Merlin can hide inside)
 
You can't use one verse's mechanics on another because "it's life force, all verses have it". BC characters also manipulate that KI and use it for precog and such, which doesn't happen in NNT."

BC characters doesn't manipulate ki they just read it. Ki is base on real life ki which is Life force, that includes health and stamina. NNT characters still have health and stamina so they can read it. Yami and asta can even notice organ and muscles' motion anyway. And even then, Meliodas is small, and Dimension Slash is large enough to take 2 or more hearts at a time.

The argument was Yami and Gauche firing their combo from the Mecha which puts an awful distance between the characters, a relativstic+ character should have no problem reacting to a FTL attack from that far away

Don't forget, Mel is only relativistic+ in reaction (In fact, his reaction speed is just a little above baseline relativistic+). Asta/Luck/... can blitz FTL characters which are at least 2× Meliodas in reaction speed, Luck can even blitz people that were comparable to him by speed amp alone. Merlin having only MHS+ speed, the black bulls' fighters can easily kill her before anyone do a thing.

Asta reverting Perfect Cube would mean him coming close to the sins/whoever is in Perfect Cube and seeing as how 4/7 sins can physically punch his head off it would be a bad idea.

Seeing how slow the sins are compared to Asta, he would've already dispelled it before they tag him.


Scans for Asta's magic attack covering something the size of the Black Bulls base.

https://v217.**********.com/manga/Black-Clover/0243-001.png

Context: Dante's presence created an intense gravity on the base and the surroundings, Asta negated all of that in one attack.

non of the BC can bypass Petfect Cube which Merlin can hide inside)

Once again, Asta reverts it.

And what stops Asta/Luck/Noelle/Charmy/Yami to blitz Merlin before she even uses it? Guys, don't forget that speed is unequalized
 
Ki is a catch all term for all the different little things that people do such as breathing, smell, and movements. Not just that but things like rocks falling and the such can only really show a single of these features so it should definitely work during this battle for Yami and Asta.
 
Chianli said:
so nnt arguments got countered
Click to expand...
Of course they were. They were countered ages ago. These people are just repeating the same three arguments over and over and over even though literally everyone else in this thread has debunked them. Epsilon, Duedate, and I, have given a lot of in-depth refutations of everything that Ah Gou keeps saying. And they haven't been able to counter those refutations at all; instead, they pretend those refutations didn't happen and keep repeating the same old stuff.
 
Imma need scans or just tell me the chapter number of Vanessa summoning Asta from the other side of the country as you claim.

https://ww5.readblackclover.com/chapter/black-clover-chapter-161/

The anime has a better visual representation obviously, and the anime is canon unless it contradicts the manga, anyway. But since you asked for a chapter, specifically, here it is.

Raging Black Bull isn't large enough to be seen from 360 miles so they won't know where they've been BFRed.

You have no calculations to prove this. Until you provide me with those calculations, this claim is unjustified.

He absolutely needs to know where they've been BFRed. A homing spell won't work if they're out of his range. His magic can teleport hundreds of kilometres, but he can't sense hundred of kilometres around him, huge difference.

It is nowhere stated he needs to sense them to use the spell. In fact, in the fight against Gaja in the Heart Kingdom, he was able to open portals in places he could not see or sense accurately.

If you lack precise calcs and evidence that's not a problem for me really, you claim something I ask you for a calc and you don't provide it due to lack of evidence, is a win for me.

That's hypocritical coming from you, the person who can't provide scans to support biased NNT feats that don't exist. Besides, I never claimed Luck's mana sensing spans hundreds of kilometers. You're putting words in my mouth. And besides, the profile states his range is hundreds of kilometers without distinction, so I don't need to provide a scan. If you want to ignore the rules of the forum and ignore information that is expressly stated in the character profiles, then I can call an admin here, and we can resolve it. How is that for you? You are the one in a losing position here. Not me. I haven't claimed anything that isn't stated in the profiles or that I haven't supported with chapter links, unlike you.

Merlin doesn't have to be familiar with the environment, that's the difference between her and Finral.

That is false, as she has no feats demonstrating this. She has never been shown capable of teleporting someone who she couldn't see or whose precise location she didn't know, and never to a place that she hadn't known or visited.

Code: 
She has both the spell range and sensory abilities. Merlin could feel the distortion around Edinburgh's castle from Liones, could feel the Albion in Camelot while being in Liones (distance is 186 miles iirc)
Finral has the same range Merlin has: "several hundred kilometers," as stated in their profiles. You can't tell me that Merlin has a higher range than Finral has, because that contradicts what is stated in the profiles.

Don't need a scan to know you require physical strength to move and do every basic life function.

Breathing doesn't require physical strength, it just requires functioning lungs, so this is wrong. As yes, to move, physical strength is required, but magic can compensate for this, since magic does not use physical strength, and magic is used for movement in BC. Also, not being able to move is not equivalent to being knocked out, per the forum rules. And it also doesn't matter so much if a scan is necessary or not: if you don't give us scans when asked, then we won't give you scans either if we don't want to. We don't need to put effort against lazy arguments. We're not the ones who stand to lose from not providing scans. Red thread of Fate and The Raging Black Bull are spells which are listed in the profiles, so from that alone, the Black Bulls have a defensive strategy the NNT cannot defeat. I already explained why BFR is irrelevant.

Them getting healed would only add to Ban's strength since their strength compared to Ban's limit would make Ban's ability look limitless.

No, it wouldn't, because they would only use stats amplification after Ban has already absorbed their prior strength. They probably wouldn't use it before Hunter Fest is used because they wouldn't need to, since they are attacking from within the base.

Also from what I could tell we use the most powerful versions during debates like these, which would include Ban's immortality, something no one can bypass.

I'm starting to think you haven't read either BC or NNT, because your comments regarding both series are all very inaccurate, and you aren't even able to provide scans, which further strengthens that hypothesis. Anyway, no, Ban's most powerful version is not immortal: this is stated in his character profile, and it is also VERY EXPLICITLY stated in the manga. After Ban left Purgatory with Meliodas, Ban gave his immortality to Elaine in order to save her. As if this wasn't a huge enough deal, the Sins explicitly mentioned that Ban gave up his immortality when he was fist-fighting Demon King Meliodas when Meliodas was still not in control of his body and form because his father took over it. In exchange for this immortality, he gained a number of resistances due to having adapted to the environment in Purgatory. ''Do you need scans?''

The hearts can't be regenerated that's true but they have no idea where they're located. KI is a in-verse thing, NNT characters do not have KI nor do they give off life energy like they do in BC so don't know why you mentioned that.

Life force is very much a thing in NNT, since The Ultimate One relies on this very concept. Also, verse equalization applies, by the rules of the forum.

Attacking from the Giant Bull would give the sins more time to react, a combo from Gauche and Yami's dimensional slash can be full countered by 6 of Mel's clones + the original. There was no cast time mentioned for Absolute Cancel and Counter vanish.

Nonsense, the attacks coming from the Raging Black Bull are not any slower than attacks in their base form when not involving Henry's magic. To the contrary, they are sometimes faster. Meliodas only makes 4 clones, not 6, and he would not be fast enough to dodge/counter all the Dark Cloaked Dimensional Slashes, because this attack is quick enough that even the majority of the FTL characters in BC are unable to react to it or see it coming at all, including characters like Zagred and Asta. Besides, the number of Yami clones far outnumber the number of Meliodas clones, so the timing isn't tight for them to maneuver around throwing the spells with slightly different timing, which is something we know Full Counter fails against because it has happened in the manga against Guila and other characters.

It is stated in Merlin's page that all her magic has exploitable cast time, so you're wrong. Counter Vanish, just like Full Counter, requires an accurate timing against the spell, and we have never seen Meliodas erasing multiple time-offset spells at once. Even if he can, speed is still a problem in this situation.

Not every attack is going to touch Meliodas, the ones that will aren't enough to bypass his endurance.

Yes, they are, since Dark Cloaked Dimensional Slash ignores durability. And I never said all the attacks are going to touch Meliodas. They don't need to. Only a handful need to land. And it's not as though this spell cannot be cast multiple times.

Plus as stated very early in this debate Perfect Cube stops dimensional slash.

And as stated equally as early in this debate, Asta's anti-magic can negate Perfect Cube. Alternatively, Charmy can also eat the spell, or Grey can convert it. Nero can also use Inverse Release to revert the spell as well.

Demon darkness (what Mel uses to heal) is not magic, can't be negated by Asta. The 10C could use the darkness to fly right after being released from the seal despite stating their magic power is 0.

Something doesn't need to have magical power, which only refers to power levels for combat purposes, in order to be magical. But even if we were to concede that Demonic Darkness is not magic, this is fine. All the other weaknesses that Meliodas has still apply, since they are literally stated in his character profile, so you can't refute them. Therefore, the Bulls can still plausibly take him out.

Asta also needs to get very close in order to do anything relevant. His most powerful sword slash can be stopped with 1 finger from near noon Escanor or anyone near his tier, not to mention above.

The only person comparable to Escanor in the NNT is Meliodas, tierwise, and Escanor in his strongest version would actually only die after several minutes. Also, no, Asta does not need to get very close to do anything relevant, I've already debunked this multiple times. Even if he needed to, he could, and he would successfully blitz the Sins, being FTL and all, and being that Vanessa, Finral, and Henry could use their magic to enhance the movement capabilities of Asta. Also, touching Asta is probably a terrible idea if he has Zora's trap magic on him. But he doesn't actually need to get close.

All of them gathering in the giant mecha would be a bad thing since they become a target of teleportation,

Not a problem, Finral can teleport everyone back to the battlefield if at full mana. Besides, I am not sure why Merlin would attempt this as a winning strike.

Asta's anti magic can't cover the entire mecha.

Yes, it can, we saw this when they were fighting against Dante. The anti-magic has an AOE that is bigger than the vertical cross-sectional area of the Raging Black Bull. Even if it couldn't, accelerated development comes into play, and then he most likely would be able to, since this isn't far off from previous feats, anyway. Epsilon R provided scans already.

Zora's spells and Magna's fireballs are useless since 4 of the sins are tiers above them.

No, they aren't, because Zora's traps have multipliers that can be applied more than once, and which can be applied even more times if multiple traps are hit. In this regard, the tier difference is irrelevant.

Firing Asta from a cannon would only get him killed faster seeing as how only 2 sins rely on magic attacks and the other 5 are straight up brawlers with a mix of magic attacks.

Those brawlers can't do much against Asta's durability, not to mention that Asta would blitz them, anyway. And one of those 2 magic users is Merlin, which is very important, because it renders Merlin, a very much necessary character for NNT to win this battle, as not anywhere nearly as powerful or relevant. To an extent, she carries some of the team, but Asta, Nero, Finral, Charmy, Grey, and Vanessa would do so much against her that it makes her struggle. Besides, Noelle and Luck can blitz Merlin, since these are the fastest members in the squad, with the exception of perhaps Yami.

Merlin can also stop time after a short while which non of them have a counter against. Even if it doesn't affect Asta he can't actually do anything on his own.

Yes, he can, he can negate the spell so it will stop affecting them. Besides, this spell has such long casting time that Merlin would get captured or incapacitated before it happened.

You can't use one verse's mechanics on another because "it's life force, all verses have it".

Yes, you can, it's called verse equalization. Unless two mechanics work fundamentally differently within one of the verses, if the other verse has the same mechanic, then they can be, for the most part, equalized. This is stated in the rules of the forum. As such, magic from NNT has the same type of quality as magic in BC. Anti-magic is expressly not magic, while NNT has magic negation that still comes as magic. This is a disadvantage, because it means Asta can negate said negation in certain circumstances. Ki is not a mechanic, ki is simply that which you can sense about a person or object. Since such things do exist in NNT, since ki is all about life force, which has been confirmed to exist in NNT by virtue of The Ultimate One, it means ki is applicable here. Period.

BC characters also manipulate that KI and use it for precog and such, which doesn't happen in NNT.

It isn't precog, it's analytical prediction. Also, ki is used for a number of other things: to identify a soul's identity, to find opponents that are hidden by magic, to detect whether someone is lying or not, among other things. Analytical prediction is merely an application of ki, it's not the definition of ki. Ki, at its fundamental, is simply that energy which all objects have, which is called life force.

The argument was Yami and Gauche firing their combo from the Mecha which puts an awful distance between the characters, a relativstic+ character should have no problem reacting to a FTL attack from that far away.

No, I never actually said that, and the distance wouldn't be large. The characters would be inside the base, but the attacks would come from the cannons, and the cannons would be closer to NNT, since there is no incentive for the Raging Black Bull to not be at close-mid distance. Even if it were far from NNT, though, this still prevents the Bulls from losing, since the NNT have no winning condition under those circumstances, since they cannot destroy the Raging Black Bull, and they wouldn't be able to infiltrate the insides without getting captured or dying.

Asta reverting Perfect Cube would mean him coming close to the sins/whoever is in Perfect Cube and seeing as how 4/7 sins can physically punch his head off it would be a bad idea.

He doesn't need to get close to them, Asta has Black Slash, and AOE from the Demon-Destroyer sword. Goddamn it, do none of you read the damn character profiles in this wiki? It's all there. There is a reason these profiles exist: so that all of you read them and consult them to use them in battles. Not only have you not seemingly read the series, but you aren't even taking the time to read the profiles? This is frigging cancerous.

Zora's traps on their own are useless in this battle if the opponent doesn't attack

That's not true. Stepping on traps alone would cause damage, and this is seen in the tournament arc, when his traps hurt Asta, his own teammate, because Asta stepped on them. Besides, if the Bulls themselves attack the traps, this claim is made irrelevant.

and with Merlin being here it would be easy to sense the traps and negate them.

The traps can't be sensed, since even high level mages in the BC verse can't sense them, even at point blank distance.

10 minutes was her deliberately postponing the spell, in one of the futures against Cath she did it much faster (unfortunately stil no timeframe, but non of the BC can bypass Petfect Cube which Merlin can hide inside)

Yes, 10 minutes was deliberate, but the cast time is still longer than for any of her other spells by a huge gap. Even if it only takes a 10 seconds, this is too slow against the Black Bulls.

Multiple of the Bulls can bypass Perfect Cube, I've explained who and how, multiple times.
 
Also, multiple members of the Black Bulls have a very convenient form of accelerated development. If they need to develop a particular spell which is the only thing that will allow them to win the battle, then they will, since this is how new spells have been learned in every single instance. Noelle needed to learn a defense to protect the village, and so at the last instance, she did. Noelle needed to learn an offensive spell, or otherwise, the Black Bulls would die, so she did. Yami needed a spell that would allow him to cut through spatial dimensions, because it was the only way he could save the Bulls. So he learned that spell. The only way for Vanessa to possibly win against the Witch Queen was by learning how to control fate. So what did she do? She learned to control fate. Gauche needed a spell that could multiply Asta. So what did he do? He created a spell that could create clones of his squad. Noelle could ever have won against Kivn if she created a spell that could allow her to control the mana around her body. So what did she do? She created that spell, right then and there, mid battle. Asta needed to compensate for not having mana skin. So what did he do? He learned anti-mana skin almost immediately. He needed to learn ki immediately, and so he did. He mastered it within a single battle.

So, even if you argued they don't have a win condition, which they do, they can create this win condition. Meanwhile, the Sins still can't do anything against the Raging Black Bull due to Red Thread of Fate, and therefore, cannot harm the Black Bulls.
 
If each of the Sins had to fight any two of the Black Bulls by themselves at a random lottery, then the Sins would probably win most of the matches. I completely admit it: the Sins, individually, are stronger than the Black Bulls. However, when we consider the team of the Black Bulls are as a whole and combine of all of their hacks, then they are nearly invincible against opponents who do not have comparable types of hacks or superior abilities, even if those opponents definitely have higher AP and durability. Just for reference, Dante completely stomped Asta without even using full power, and Asta is one of the strongest members of the Black Bulls in 1v1 scenarios. However, when Vanessa still had mana, Dante was able to do practically nothing against them. This was just a Vanessa + Asta combo, because Gauche, Henry, and Grey contributed very little because they were not battle ready, and since most of the Black Bulls were absent, Henry was low on mana. Dante would have struggled even much more if Henry had been full of mana and Charmy had been present, because Charmy would have helped Vanessa restore mana, and the Red Thread of Fate could have been maintained for much longer, and Dante would not have been able to do anything at all ever. It was only due to the unfavorable circumstances that they lost. Here, in this hypothetical battle against the sins, those unfortunate circumstances are absent, and all the members of the Black Bulls are present. I have already explained why the Sins would not be able to harm the Black Bulls: The Raging Black Bull + Red Thread of Fate in combination result in passive fate manipulation that cannot be negated by the likes of Merlin for any meaningful amount of time, and BFR is not relevant because Finral can teleport the base back to the battlefield. Asta, Grey, Charmy, and Nero also do a lot to counteract Merlin in her entirety. Plus, the Black Bulls have the speed advantage. As a group, the Black Bulls are definitely stronger than the Sins, even if the Sins would be the ones to win individual battles. Remember: the reason the Black Bulls have so much going on for them is due to the combination of the different magic types, and the fact that they cover each other's weaknesses extremely well. The Sins do not complement each other nearly as well, and they lack the hacks that the Bulls do.

Also, the Sins are definitely not continental level or higher, and the FTL feats still have not been proven via scans or calculations, so those are not going to be relevant here.
 
back then i think they where continent level actually but i dont remember well, but it probably where debunked and thats why they are in that tier
 
Honestly, looking at this it m it might be a stomp:

Defensive:

Charmy(infinite magic replenation) + Vanessa(Fate hax) + Henry(defense) means the black bulls have infinite fate hax defense and infinite stamina.

Asta can negate any of gowthers/Merlins/Bans more subtle abilities with demon destroyer sword fate release, and they can't negate his abilities either, because he has no magic.

Sealing doesn't work because secre can just unseal them

BFR doesn't work because Finral can teleport them right back.(There was a time BFR got past infinite hax defense, but finral wasn't there.

Offensive:

Yami can durability negate slash , Finral can BFR , secre can seal, zora can paralyze,henry can mana steal,gordon can poison, so the god tiers can be easily taken care of.

Perfect cube can be cut by Yami or Asta, or Henry could mana steal through it, or Finral could teleport them inside.

There's also the massive speed advantage that is a thing. The sins can't hurt the bulls, and the black bulls just have a massive Hax advantage and are far more used to working as a team then the seven deadly sins.It's cool that the sins have an AP advantage, but it really doesn't matter when half of the bulls have non AP related abilities.

Note:Magna currently has no purpose in this fight, but maybe one day. Noelle and Luck are the muscle to take out the mid-lower AP tiers like Diane,Merlin, Gowther.
 
Gordon's poison is honestly not going to accomplish a whole lot unless used in combination with other spells. But the point still stands. The Sins do not have a viable winning condition here. It'd be one thing is this were only half of the Black Bulls or specific members. But the entire squad as whole isn't going to lose against characters who lack hacks and/or resistances to them. The Sins are also outnumbered here. It's 14 vs 7, and that's prior to Gauche using Real Double, and then double utilizing Mirror Brigade. Grey can also transform into Gauche and use his magic, so although we have never seen it happen canonically, there is technically nothing stopping grey from also using Real Double. Then you have 4 Guaches, and all four of them could use Mirror Brigade provided enough mana is given, which in this case is possible due to Charmy. So you get four armies of clones of different mages. Nothing stops them from cloning Asta, Yami, Noelle, or anyone else in the group. And maybe having one single Asta isn't the biggest deal against the Sins, although Asta will still play a significant role. But having 20 Astas attack you is most definitely going to be a problem. And that's only one use of Mirror Brigade.
 
Sins takes this, much higher AP and durability overall.

Merlin can BFR them no stop forever, Finral can't do anything if he is constantly teleported non stop.

Merlin can apply infinite in that BFR spells and they are done.

Gowther mind hax them via changing their memories, and he will realize that Asta's sword is a pain, as well as their grimoires.

Merlin simply BFR their grimoires out of their reach and they are powerless lol.
 
Sins - AP Bulls - Speed

I think they got better Hax and you probably do not even need all 14 just 5 (Asta, Yami, Charmy, Finral, Vanessa) prove me if I am wrong though
 
Bulls as a whole is a hellstorm. Without the good resistance (and or immunity), Hax, speed it will probably go in bulls favor idk
 
Dragoonseraphim said:
That isn't really going to work if they get blitzed as soon as the battle starts. Yami dimension slashes and their dead.
Click to expand...
What blitzing can do if they are too weak to cause any damage to them?
 
RicardoSama said:
Bulls as a whole is a hellstorm. Without the good resistance (and or immunity), Hax, speed it will probably go in bulls favor idk
Click to expand...
Still don't see how it will affect Mel's Regenerationn and Ban's stats reduction hax with snatch.
 
Dooyo said:
Dragoonseraphim said:
That isn't really going to work if they get blitzed as soon as the battle starts. Yami dimension slashes and their dead.
Click to expand...
What blitzing can do if they are too weak to cause any damage to them?
Click to expand...
First off the two characters you mentioned Merlin and Gowther are tier Low 6-B and 6-C respectively Yami is also Low 6-B and if that wasn't enough Demension Slash negates durability so it doesn't really matter those two will be dead as that is something Yami starts with.
 
Dooyo said:
Dragoonseraphim said:
That isn't really going to work if they get blitzed as soon as the battle starts. Yami dimension slashes and their dead.
Click to expand...
What blitzing can do if they are too weak to cause any damage to them?
Click to expand...
Hmm, So to list a few things they can do?

-Finral BFR them (To deal with regenerators)

-Kill the weaker ones like Diane Gowther and Merlin

-Dimension slash them/Dura Negating

-Secre Seals them(To deal with Regenerators)

-Zora Paralyzes them and incapacitates.
 
Dragoonseraphim said:
Dooyo said:
Dragoonseraphim said:
That isn't really going to work if they get blitzed as soon as the battle starts. Yami dimension slashes and their dead.
Click to expand...
What blitzing can do if they are too weak to cause any damage to them?
Click to expand...
First off the two characters you mentioned Merlin and Gowther are tier Low 6-B and 6-C respectively Yami is also Low 6-B and if that wasn't enough Demension Slash negates durability so it doesn't really matter those two will be dead as that is something Yami starts with.
Click to expand...
Don't think that Yami will attack Merlin right from the start as it isn't his character to attack the woman of the group, he will start with the dude which will allow Merlin to stop his time.

Gowther wouldn't die even if he is cut in half, he is a doll, you will gave to destroy him completely for that.

And his memory hax is also a one shot thing
 
Dooyo said:
Dragoonseraphim said:
Dooyo said:
Dragoonseraphim said:
That isn't really going to work if they get blitzed as soon as the battle starts. Yami dimension slashes and their dead.
Click to expand...
What blitzing can do if they are too weak to cause any damage to them?
Click to expand...
First off the two characters you mentioned Merlin and Gowther are tier Low 6-B and 6-C respectively Yami is also Low 6-B and if that wasn't enough Demension Slash negates durability so it doesn't really matter those two will be dead as that is something Yami starts with.
Click to expand...
Don't think that Yami will attack Merlin right from the start as it isn't his character to attack the woman of the group, he will start with the dude which will allow Merlin to stop his time.
Gowther wouldn't die even if he is cut in half, he is a doll, you will gave to destroy him completely for that.

And his memory hax is also a one shot thing
Click to expand...
Asta attacks Merlin with Black Divider,and secre seals gowther. gg
 
Dooyo said:
RicardoSama said:
Bulls as a whole is a hellstorm. Without the good resistance (and or immunity), Hax, speed it will probably go in bulls favor idk
Click to expand...
Still don't see how it will affect Mel's Regenerationn and Ban's stats reduction hax with snatch.
Click to expand...
-Asta negates ban's stat's reduction, and Finral can BFR Meliodas.

-Or Secre seals meliodas.
 
CyborgSakumo said:
Dooyo said:
Dragoonseraphim said:
Dooyo said:
Dragoonseraphim said:
That isn't really going to work if they get blitzed as soon as the battle starts. Yami dimension slashes and their dead.
Click to expand...
What blitzing can do if they are too weak to cause any damage to them?
Click to expand...
First off the two characters you mentioned Merlin and Gowther are tier Low 6-B and 6-C respectively Yami is also Low 6-B and if that wasn't enough Demension Slash negates durability so it doesn't really matter those two will be dead as that is something Yami starts with.
Click to expand...
Don't think that Yami will attack Merlin right from the start as it isn't his character to attack the woman of the group, he will start with the dude which will allow Merlin to stop his time.
Gowther wouldn't die even if he is cut in half, he is a doll, you will gave to destroy him completely for that.

And his memory hax is also a one shot thing
Click to expand...
Asta attacks Merlin with Black Divider,and secre seals gowther. gg
Click to expand...
How if he attack her when he is blackout by Gowther which is an AOE attack? And how he move if he is on the ground via Ban's snatch which has AOE effect via Hunter Fest?

And judging by the overwhelming difference in tier of AP and Durability, Ban snatch all their strength, speed and stamina in one go, and he is immortal, so forgot about killing him.

No more blitzing and speed advantage, it is GG with Ban and Gowther alone.
 
Blackout wouldn't work on Asta, because gowther is 6-C asta is low-6B(Blackout only works on opponents much weaker than gowther), asta negates ban's snatch via fate release which is AOE. Also , all the bulls are faster so they get first move, so they probably wouldn't even be able to do this, but even if they did it wouldn't matter.
 
CyborgSakumo said:
Blackout wouldn't work on Asta, because gowther is 6-C asta is low-6B(Blackout only works on opponents much weaker than gowther), asta negates ban's snatch. Also , all the bulls are faster so they get first move, so they probably wouldn't even be able to do this, but even if they did it wouldn't matter.
Click to expand...
How Asta negate the statistic reduction hax from snatch, I don't recall him having done that?

And nope, he can't because he has to use his sword for that to happen and snatch steal all his strength, how he will even hold his sword again? He can't lift it with 0 strength in his arms lol.

Doesn't matter that they are faster, if they are too weak to even put a scratch on them and their attack speed isn't the same as their movement speed as they are just spells which they are useless with Meliodas's counter vanish around which do the same thing as Asta.
 
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