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And Asta does very similar thing to Meliodas, hell, even better as he can absorb the spell and null it.
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black bulls, VS seven tealy sins (nanatsuno taisai)
- Thread starter HAKKAIDER
- Start date
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Absorbing an attack which is let's say in Meliodas' case 380 times stronger than Charmy is definitely a NLF, just like Meliodas full countering let's say a Bijuu Bomb from Naruto is also NLF. But i'm not debating that, show me Charmy absorbing an attack close to Mel's level and i'll give you the win there. And i did check every profile, lot's of "low 6-Bs" there but all of them (minus Asta) scale to the 1 teraton feat. Meliodas creating another clone which has half his PL has more pottency than 1 teraton. My point for Vanessa is that she is extremely weak, Meliodas nuking the entire battlefield would definitely hit and kill her, iirc she needs to connect to you with that stupid cat in order to activate the ability? and there's a range ofc so she pretty much dies first.
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Not sure why the page won't let me add a picture but https://ww3.***************.com/chapter/nanatsu-no-taizai-chapter-084/ . PC blocking out Merlin's teleportation spell is explained on page 4-5. Yami may have cut through forcefields but did any of them block out Spatial Manip. skills?
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Glad to know Meliodas can full counter Dark Schneider's Multi galaxy busting attack because they're magic. (I'm being sarcastic, i asked you to show me a feat where she absorbs someone of Mel caliber's attack so you back up your claim) Imma need some scans of how her ability actually works and how she is able to "summon a fate where Meliodas is hitting somewhere else" when his range is tens of kilometeres.
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Attack reflection also doesn't work because he is WEAKER, same goes for Absorbtion, she is weaker and has no feats that suggest she could absorb such an attack. So according do you Charmy can absorb a multiversal attack as long as it's magic. Don't see how you don't see the fault in your own logic. Oh lol so that's how it works, that can be bypassed by sheer brutality. Mel's attack made a perfect circle kilometres into the ground, so in this case HIS AoE=Range. You're again abusing NLF with the cat thing.
Epsilon_R
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here Charmy absorbs more than 40 attacks from Rill at the same time and without having any trouble and she kept absorbing his spell until she defeats him. I asked an admin, he said charmy could absorb a high 6-B attacks. If anything, Mel is the only one she couldn't absorb (and she just has to absorb one of king's attacks to become 67 Teratons and then absorb Mel's)
"Oh lol so that's how it works, that can be bypassed by sheer brutality. Mel's attack made a perfect circle kilometres into the ground, so in this case HIS AoE=Range. You're again abusing NLF with the cat thing"
"Even if the attacks is has a large range or AoE, this happens (The cat basically split the water magic in 2 so it doesn't hit the HQ). Even if it did manage to hit there's this"
Also NO fate manip cannot be bypassed by brutality lmao, where did you get this one from?
Except for Meliodas, the rest of the sins are no problem tbh.
Diane is too weak to do anything and has no hax, Gowther gets blitzed (like the others), Asta counters Merlin, King, Ban and Escanor won't resist a Dimension Slash and their attacks would be either absorbed by Charmy/Asta or nulled by Asta's passive Anti-Magic. Meanwhile the Bulls are untouchable due to Fate Manipulation, Causality Manipulation and sheer speed so even the weakest bulls can't be killed
"Oh lol so that's how it works, that can be bypassed by sheer brutality. Mel's attack made a perfect circle kilometres into the ground, so in this case HIS AoE=Range. You're again abusing NLF with the cat thing"
"Even if the attacks is has a large range or AoE, this happens (The cat basically split the water magic in 2 so it doesn't hit the HQ). Even if it did manage to hit there's this"
Also NO fate manip cannot be bypassed by brutality lmao, where did you get this one from?
Except for Meliodas, the rest of the sins are no problem tbh.
Diane is too weak to do anything and has no hax, Gowther gets blitzed (like the others), Asta counters Merlin, King, Ban and Escanor won't resist a Dimension Slash and their attacks would be either absorbed by Charmy/Asta or nulled by Asta's passive Anti-Magic. Meanwhile the Bulls are untouchable due to Fate Manipulation, Causality Manipulation and sheer speed so even the weakest bulls can't be killed
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I don't see 40 attacks anywhere on the page, and are you implying that Rill guy is on the same tier as King? Do you see the fault in your logic?You asking an admin and him agreeing with you doesn't help back up your claims. Also some admin he is that thinks you can absorb an attack 380 times stronger than yourself, tag him here I'd like to hear his dumb reasoning. So previously you argued against me that attack reflection =/= absorbtion and agreed that Charmy can't absorb Mel's attack and now you're saying Asta would succeed in doing so. Cmon it's annoying to repeat myself how much you abuse NLF in all of your arguments.
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If i also abuse NLF like you do i could just say Gowther activates Blackout and anyone with no magic resistance passes out. Fate Manipulation can be canceled or her magic can be sealed, you can't redirect that since it's not an attack, Gowther's arrows also don't have a physical form so they can't be redirected.
Epsilon_R
He/Him- 6,266
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Fate Manipulation can't be cancelled. Asta tried to null it but it didn't work, Asta's passive Anti-Magic did nothing either.Ah Gou said:
As for Gowther, that would've not happen since 1- he gets blitzed and one-shot before he does that and 2- Asta has passive Anti-Magic, mind manip negation as well as Causality Manipulation and resistance to Magic
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Why would you post a different page than asked? And I've yet to see her absorb 30 attacks. Also absorbing 30 1 teraton attacks is not the same as absorbing one 30 teratons attack. "I asked him so deal with it" totally doesn't help you in a debate, Vsbattles admins don't have a good reputation outside this forum (duh). You literally said "Asta counters Merlin, King, Ban and Escanor won't resist a Dimension Slash and their attacks would be either absorbed by Charmy/Asta or nulled by Asta's passive Anti-Magic" you probably meant to add a punctuation mark somewhere. Demon King had a passive magic null ability, yet got switched off by Gowther so that isn't really helping anyone.
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Any magic related attack gets nullified by either Merlin or Meliodas, team BC has to fight physically which they get punted. And you STILL haven't explained how the destiny thing works or how it passively works for every Black Bull, I've asked you to way above. Gowther can't die so blitzing him will do no good.
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Seven Deadly Sins has now been upgraded. And now, I have to say that I think the Black Bulls would win due to just sheer speed advantage. All of their group is FTL, with the Sin's currently only having three Relativistic memebers who are dealing with people who are all at least two times faster then them. And while the Sins have the AP advantage now, the likes of Yami, Nero, and Henry can get around that a little too easily.
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But i'm not debating that, show me Charmy absorbing an attack close to Mel's level and i'll give you the win there.
Charmy can absorb multiple attacks of the same AP at once, as shown in her battle against Rill, making this counterargument irrelevant.
Meliodas creating another clone which has half his PL has more pottency than 1 teraton.
Epsilon R already argued this is irrelevant. AP is not everything in a battle. First of all, Meliodas needs to be able to hit them in order for the AP to matter. But they all blitz the NNT. Meliodas ain't gonna be able to touch them. And if he were to randomly be able to through an AOE, Red String of Fate outright will prevent hit anyway.
My point for Vanessa is that she is extremely weak, Meliodas nuking the entire battlefield would definitely hit and kill her
No, he wouldn't, her Fate Manipulation would protect her and the Black Bulls. In chapters 241 and 242 of the Black Clover manga, we have seen Rouge protect the Black Bulls be protected from a very powerful AOE attack from Dante that covered what seemed to be an entire section of the forest they were hiding in. So much so that Dante had to force Vanessa to run out of mana in order to even attempt to fight the Black Bulls. Only then did the AOE affect them.
she needs to connect to you with that stupid cat in order to activate the ability? and there's a range ofc so she pretty much dies first.
No, she doesn't, and there are multiple instances of her spells being able to protect every member in the Black Bulls simultaneously (which would be impossible if it were upon touch exclusively).
Charmy can absorb multiple attacks of the same AP at once, as shown in her battle against Rill, making this counterargument irrelevant.
Meliodas creating another clone which has half his PL has more pottency than 1 teraton.
Epsilon R already argued this is irrelevant. AP is not everything in a battle. First of all, Meliodas needs to be able to hit them in order for the AP to matter. But they all blitz the NNT. Meliodas ain't gonna be able to touch them. And if he were to randomly be able to through an AOE, Red String of Fate outright will prevent hit anyway.
My point for Vanessa is that she is extremely weak, Meliodas nuking the entire battlefield would definitely hit and kill her
No, he wouldn't, her Fate Manipulation would protect her and the Black Bulls. In chapters 241 and 242 of the Black Clover manga, we have seen Rouge protect the Black Bulls be protected from a very powerful AOE attack from Dante that covered what seemed to be an entire section of the forest they were hiding in. So much so that Dante had to force Vanessa to run out of mana in order to even attempt to fight the Black Bulls. Only then did the AOE affect them.
she needs to connect to you with that stupid cat in order to activate the ability? and there's a range ofc so she pretty much dies first.
No, she doesn't, and there are multiple instances of her spells being able to protect every member in the Black Bulls simultaneously (which would be impossible if it were upon touch exclusively).
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Asta can negate all of this. Asta can negate all status-altering magic at a range, even when he is paralyzed and incapable of acting. His swords do the job for him by oozing anti-magic, he doesn't need to do anything specifically.Ah Gou said:
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As of right now, the Black Bulls would defeat the Seven Deadly Sins fairly easily. For one, the Black Bulls have double the number of members than the Seven Deadly sins, so while each member of the Sins has higher AP than any member of the Black Bulls, the combined AP of the Black Bulls is comparable, possibly higher. The Black Bulls have FTL reactions and Asta has debatably FTL+ combat and movement speed, while the Sins have relativistic+ at best. Finral can BFR Merlin before she BFRs anyone else because of this massive speed difference, not to mention that Merlin would not be able to successfully BFR Finral anyway due to Fate Manipulation. Even if she did, Finral can insta-teleport back.
The Black Bulls are completely invulnerable to all attacks due to Vanessa's Fate Manipulation. Her cat Rouge can only be dispelled if Vanessa runs out of mana, but this could never as long as Charmy was present. Hence Merlin would need to BFR Charmy successfully, but as I already mentioned, Finral BFRs Merlin via spell spam, since he blitzes her. Otherwise, Charmy needs to die or be rendered unconscious in order for Vanessa to run out of mana, and unless Vanessa runs out of mana, the Black Bulls are completely invulnerable. Charmy cannot be killed or be rendered unconscious because of Vanessa, and Vanessa cannot run out of mana and be stopped because of Charmy.
Guys, how do the Seven Deadly Sins win? Do you see that they have no achievable winning condition against the Black Bulls? The very worst possible outcome for the Black Bulls is a tie/draw, and this is assuming the Black Bulls are unable to finish off the sins, which is absolutely false. Even if take away 11 of the Black Bulls members, the trio of Vanessa, Charmy, and Finral, BY THEMSELVES, can take on the entirety of the Seven Deadly Sins, and they'll still stand undefeated. Yes, the Seven Deadly Sins have the AP and Durability advantage, but the Finral-Vanessa-Charmy hax combination, plus the fact that they can blitz the Seven Deadly Sins, makes them unstoppable, and it renders AP irrelevant. Meliodas himself cannot do so much as even touch them. Even with AOE attacks, the Black Bulls are still protected by Vanessa's magic.
Now, I claimed the Black Bulls can finish off the Seven Deadly Sins. How? Captain Yami has durability negation abilities, namely, Dimensional Slash, and its more powerful, faster variant, Dimensional Slash: Equinox. As it negates durability, this attack will K.O. Diane, King, Ban, and Escanor. Meliodas has Mid Regen, though, and he has 7 hearts, so this would not do any significant harm to him, and Merlin is effectively immortal. Merlin will be BFR'd for most of the battle, though, so this is irrelevant. I honestly do not know if Gowther can be K.O'ed, but it is unclear if Dimensional Slash is sufficient. However, Nero and Asta have magic negating abilities, meaning they can turn Gowther back to his doll form, rendering him irrelevant. The only one who could possibly survive in this battle is Meliodas, whom will be difficult to finish off. The Black Bulls would have to destroy all his 7 hearts at once, but if there are 14 members, this is completely feasible, seeing as to how the hearts themselves are not very durable. For instance, Gauche can use mirror double, and then both doubles can use Mirror Brigade on Asta and Yami. Then 10 Astas and 10 Yamis would blitz poor boi Meliodas. Once Meliodas is dead, Finral can stop BFR'ing Merlin, and then they could kill her however they desire to do so, especially because Asta nullifies magic.
The Black Bulls might have a hard time winning, but they can never lose.
The Black Bulls are completely invulnerable to all attacks due to Vanessa's Fate Manipulation. Her cat Rouge can only be dispelled if Vanessa runs out of mana, but this could never as long as Charmy was present. Hence Merlin would need to BFR Charmy successfully, but as I already mentioned, Finral BFRs Merlin via spell spam, since he blitzes her. Otherwise, Charmy needs to die or be rendered unconscious in order for Vanessa to run out of mana, and unless Vanessa runs out of mana, the Black Bulls are completely invulnerable. Charmy cannot be killed or be rendered unconscious because of Vanessa, and Vanessa cannot run out of mana and be stopped because of Charmy.
Guys, how do the Seven Deadly Sins win? Do you see that they have no achievable winning condition against the Black Bulls? The very worst possible outcome for the Black Bulls is a tie/draw, and this is assuming the Black Bulls are unable to finish off the sins, which is absolutely false. Even if take away 11 of the Black Bulls members, the trio of Vanessa, Charmy, and Finral, BY THEMSELVES, can take on the entirety of the Seven Deadly Sins, and they'll still stand undefeated. Yes, the Seven Deadly Sins have the AP and Durability advantage, but the Finral-Vanessa-Charmy hax combination, plus the fact that they can blitz the Seven Deadly Sins, makes them unstoppable, and it renders AP irrelevant. Meliodas himself cannot do so much as even touch them. Even with AOE attacks, the Black Bulls are still protected by Vanessa's magic.
Now, I claimed the Black Bulls can finish off the Seven Deadly Sins. How? Captain Yami has durability negation abilities, namely, Dimensional Slash, and its more powerful, faster variant, Dimensional Slash: Equinox. As it negates durability, this attack will K.O. Diane, King, Ban, and Escanor. Meliodas has Mid Regen, though, and he has 7 hearts, so this would not do any significant harm to him, and Merlin is effectively immortal. Merlin will be BFR'd for most of the battle, though, so this is irrelevant. I honestly do not know if Gowther can be K.O'ed, but it is unclear if Dimensional Slash is sufficient. However, Nero and Asta have magic negating abilities, meaning they can turn Gowther back to his doll form, rendering him irrelevant. The only one who could possibly survive in this battle is Meliodas, whom will be difficult to finish off. The Black Bulls would have to destroy all his 7 hearts at once, but if there are 14 members, this is completely feasible, seeing as to how the hearts themselves are not very durable. For instance, Gauche can use mirror double, and then both doubles can use Mirror Brigade on Asta and Yami. Then 10 Astas and 10 Yamis would blitz poor boi Meliodas. Once Meliodas is dead, Finral can stop BFR'ing Merlin, and then they could kill her however they desire to do so, especially because Asta nullifies magic.
The Black Bulls might have a hard time winning, but they can never lose.
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DAMN MindControl! You're crazy xD. Black Bulls FRA. However, I would like to know how the battle would turn out if it was speed equalized. I would believe that the outcome would still be the same, but the major difference would be Merlin being in the round due to Finral not having the speed advantage. But she'd still have to deal with Asta and Nero..
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Oh, yeah totally. I mean, in this case, the Seven Deadly Sins would last far longer and give a better fight due to not being blitzed. But at the end of the day, they will still be incapable of finishing off the Black Bulls. Gauche can use Mirror Brigade on Finral, and now, it does not matter that Merlin is now at equal speeds to Finral, she is still going to inevitably be BFR'd due to the lag on her teleportation magic. The only thing is that, in doing this, Gauche can now no longer used Mirror Brigade on Asta or Yami, eliminating the easiest way of defeating Meliodas, but the Black Bulls can still def win this.NomsNoms said:
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With speed equalized, any member of the black bulls that is not at least small country would be easily killed by Ban with Assault Hunt or King's Increase. As for Rouge, it would be dispeled by Counter Vanish or Absolute Cancel. Lets not forget about Physical Hunt and Hunter Fest either.
Considering that BB top dogs are still way bellow Nanatsu's top dogs, i would say the Sins would win.
Considering that BB top dogs are still way bellow Nanatsu's top dogs, i would say the Sins would win.
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Wasnt it negated by that dark triad guy?. When did it resisted Magic Negation?Epsilon R said:
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And when did it resisted magic negation? You still havent answered that.
Thats even more lame, dont count too much on Rogue for this fight if her magic is expended that quickly.
Thats even more lame, dont count too much on Rogue for this fight if her magic is expended that quickly.
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Asta didnt touch Rouge, the threads unraveled in order to dodge the attack. That wont work against Counter Vanish or Absolute Cancel. Vanessa can cast it again, but she will only waste her magic pointlessly.
Asta's causality manipulation doesnt work that way, it need contact for that, but if Vanessa's magic was already negated there is nothing to touch.
Also, Vanessa's magic requires the cat to touch a target to save them, so it simply cant save everyone if they are attacked at the same time (Ban alone can attack all BB members at the same time, King too).
Vanessa's magic is quite strong, but its not perfect, and in this kind of fight when the BB have dead weight that can be easily one shotted, its simply not gonna save them all the time (rather, its counter productive to save the weak members), and this wthout counting magic negation users (that dont need to touch the cat, unlike Asta)
There is also the option to trap strong BB members inside Perfect Cube btw, to make things easier for the Sins.
Asta's causality manipulation doesnt work that way, it need contact for that, but if Vanessa's magic was already negated there is nothing to touch.
Also, Vanessa's magic requires the cat to touch a target to save them, so it simply cant save everyone if they are attacked at the same time (Ban alone can attack all BB members at the same time, King too).
Vanessa's magic is quite strong, but its not perfect, and in this kind of fight when the BB have dead weight that can be easily one shotted, its simply not gonna save them all the time (rather, its counter productive to save the weak members), and this wthout counting magic negation users (that dont need to touch the cat, unlike Asta)
There is also the option to trap strong BB members inside Perfect Cube btw, to make things easier for the Sins.
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With speed equalized, any member of the black bulls that is not at least small country would be easily killed by Ban with Assault Hunt or King's Increase.
No, they wouldn't, because Rouge exists. I don't think you're understanding the situation. The Black Bulls literally cannot be damaged as long as Rouge is present. This is the very essence of how Red Thread of Fate: Rouge works. If Ban uses Assault Hunt, he will simply miss and never manage to touch their heads. The same applies for King's Increase. Rouge is so powerful that it protects the Black Bulls even from manipulation spells, as we have seen in the recent chapters.
As for Rouge, it would be dispeled by Counter Vanish or Absolute Cancel. Lets not forget about Physical Hunt and Hunter Fest either.
1. Rouge cannot be dispelled, as she resists anti-magic itself. This is because any spell that cancels her from existence is seen as offensive magic, and Rouge defends from all offensive magic. 2. If #1 were false, Vanessa can simply re-summon Rouge. She can spam the spell forever because she will never run out of mana as long as Charmy is there, and we already discussed how Charmy would not be BFR'd by Merlin because of Finral. 3. Asta can use the anti-magic energy of the Demon-Destroyer Sword to reverse the effects of spell cancellations. We know he can do this because he reversed Damnatio's status-altering Scale Magic. 4. Grey can possibly transform the spells to eliminate their spell cancelling properties, although this last part may or may not be NFL.
Considering that BB top dogs are still way bellow Nanatsu's top dogs, i would say the Sins would win.
There is no evidence for this claim, but even if this is true, being a top dog does not suddenly make you immune to literal hax. Unless any of the sins have true resistance to fate manipulation, the Sins cannot win.
Wasnt it negated by that dark triad guy?
Nope. Vanessa ran out of mana, so the spell could not be maintained. She ran out of mana because she was facing off against 60% amplification via Devil power, and she was already low on mana from defending against the other attacks. Also, Charmy was not present during this fight against Dante, so she could not help her replenish mana.
Thats even more lame, dont count too much on Rogue for this fight if her magic is expended that quickly.
Her magic doesn't run out quickly, she simply had the spell active against spells far too powerful, and the more powerful the spell, the more mana it consumes for Rouge to defend against them. These spells are far more powerful than anything the sins can cast. Also, we can count on Rouge because Charmy will be a part of the fight against the Sins, since she is a member of the Black Bulls and has a complete VS Battles profile. And since Charmy will be there, Vanessa is not going to run out of mana.
No, they wouldn't, because Rouge exists. I don't think you're understanding the situation. The Black Bulls literally cannot be damaged as long as Rouge is present. This is the very essence of how Red Thread of Fate: Rouge works. If Ban uses Assault Hunt, he will simply miss and never manage to touch their heads. The same applies for King's Increase. Rouge is so powerful that it protects the Black Bulls even from manipulation spells, as we have seen in the recent chapters.
As for Rouge, it would be dispeled by Counter Vanish or Absolute Cancel. Lets not forget about Physical Hunt and Hunter Fest either.
1. Rouge cannot be dispelled, as she resists anti-magic itself. This is because any spell that cancels her from existence is seen as offensive magic, and Rouge defends from all offensive magic. 2. If #1 were false, Vanessa can simply re-summon Rouge. She can spam the spell forever because she will never run out of mana as long as Charmy is there, and we already discussed how Charmy would not be BFR'd by Merlin because of Finral. 3. Asta can use the anti-magic energy of the Demon-Destroyer Sword to reverse the effects of spell cancellations. We know he can do this because he reversed Damnatio's status-altering Scale Magic. 4. Grey can possibly transform the spells to eliminate their spell cancelling properties, although this last part may or may not be NFL.
Considering that BB top dogs are still way bellow Nanatsu's top dogs, i would say the Sins would win.
There is no evidence for this claim, but even if this is true, being a top dog does not suddenly make you immune to literal hax. Unless any of the sins have true resistance to fate manipulation, the Sins cannot win.
Wasnt it negated by that dark triad guy?
Nope. Vanessa ran out of mana, so the spell could not be maintained. She ran out of mana because she was facing off against 60% amplification via Devil power, and she was already low on mana from defending against the other attacks. Also, Charmy was not present during this fight against Dante, so she could not help her replenish mana.
Thats even more lame, dont count too much on Rogue for this fight if her magic is expended that quickly.
Her magic doesn't run out quickly, she simply had the spell active against spells far too powerful, and the more powerful the spell, the more mana it consumes for Rouge to defend against them. These spells are far more powerful than anything the sins can cast. Also, we can count on Rouge because Charmy will be a part of the fight against the Sins, since she is a member of the Black Bulls and has a complete VS Battles profile. And since Charmy will be there, Vanessa is not going to run out of mana.
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Asta didnt touch Rouge, the threads unraveled in order to dodge the attack.
Yes, because Rouge is immune to attacks by default. This was stated by the Witch Queen when Vanessa first used the spell. Also, Asta does not need to touch something to undo the magic. Asta has casted AOE anti-magic in the past, such as he did at the beginning of chapter 243, or during the trail conducted by Damnatio. Asta can use anti-magic even when paralyzed, because it simply oozes out of the sword itself, he need not actually touch the magic directly.
That wont work against Counter Vanish or Absolute Cancel. Vanessa can cast it again, but she will only waste her magic pointlessly.
It will work: Rouge will simply not be hit those spells. She will redirect them, because that is what she does. And no, casting it again will not make her waste magic. What costs mana is maintaining the spell, not casting it, and Charmy will be there. And I have said this a billion times already: Charmy can regenerate people's mana. So, it is impossible to waste mana.
Asta's causality manipulation doesnt work that way, it need contact for that,
No, it doesn't, and there are multiple feats that consistently show this. When Asta first obtained the Demon-Destroyer Sword, he cured Father from the effects of the poison without touching him. When Asta was fighting versus elf-possessed Gauche, he and the Black Bulls were paralyzed by elf-possessed Marie, and he still managed to undo the paralysis because he managed to control the anti-magic energy so that it would flow out of his body and affect all the members in the fight simultaneously. When he was put in trial by Damnatio and the Black Bulls invaded the court, Damnatio casted Scale Magic, which reduced the statistics of everyone's magic - except Vanessa's, of course. And while this technically is not an offensive attack, Asta reversed the effects of the spell without touching anyone. And finally, during the fight against Dante in chapter 243, we saw Asta purge the entire zone from Dante's AOE gravitational magic, with a single attack, without actually touching anyone.
Also, Vanessa's magic requires the cat to touch a target to save them, so it simply cant save everyone if they are attacked at the same time (Ban alone can attack all BB members at the same time, King too).
This is just false. The cat does not need to touch a target to save them, and we saw this to be true multiple times, in every single fight Vanessa was present in during the elves's invasion arc, and we saw it multiple times during the fight against Dante in the chapters 240-242. And yes, she can protect all Black Bulls members simultaneously, because, again, there are multiple instances of her doing this throughout the series. In particular, the only times where the cat has been explicitly shown to touch the members was during the Witch Queen's forest arc. Even if you argue that the cat does always touch the target, the cat always does it passively and a priori, it does not fail just because you want it to. Even Vanessa does not have explicit control of Rouge, so Vanessa cannot make Rouge fail to save someone. In other words, even if it was a explicit requirement that Rouge touches her target, this does not stop her from saving anyone she wants to all at once. Also, Rouge can defend the Black Bulls by instead touching the attackers as opposed to touching the Black Bulls, since we saw this happen during the fight against the Witch Queen, which further proves my point that Rouge can defend the Black Bulls however she wants by touching whoever or whatever she wants (including nothing), so long as it alters someone's or something's fate in such a way that the Black Bulls are not harmed. That is how the spell works.
Vanessa's magic is quite strong, but its not perfect, and in this kind of fight when the BB have dead weight that can be easily one shotted, its simply not gonna save them all the time (rather, its counter productive to save the weak members), and this wthout counting magic negation users (that dont need to touch the cat, unlike Asta)
You have no evidence of this claim, because Vanessa has never failed to save anyone while casting this spell. Besides, none of the members in the Black Bulls are so weak that they become dead-weight. This is fallacious. All the members contribute a lot to the group.
There is also the option to trap strong BB members inside Perfect Cube btw, to make things easier for the Sins.
Perfect Cube would be instantly negated by Asta, not to mention that Grey can just change the properties of the spell and simply make it not trap them anymore.
Yes, because Rouge is immune to attacks by default. This was stated by the Witch Queen when Vanessa first used the spell. Also, Asta does not need to touch something to undo the magic. Asta has casted AOE anti-magic in the past, such as he did at the beginning of chapter 243, or during the trail conducted by Damnatio. Asta can use anti-magic even when paralyzed, because it simply oozes out of the sword itself, he need not actually touch the magic directly.
That wont work against Counter Vanish or Absolute Cancel. Vanessa can cast it again, but she will only waste her magic pointlessly.
It will work: Rouge will simply not be hit those spells. She will redirect them, because that is what she does. And no, casting it again will not make her waste magic. What costs mana is maintaining the spell, not casting it, and Charmy will be there. And I have said this a billion times already: Charmy can regenerate people's mana. So, it is impossible to waste mana.
Asta's causality manipulation doesnt work that way, it need contact for that,
No, it doesn't, and there are multiple feats that consistently show this. When Asta first obtained the Demon-Destroyer Sword, he cured Father from the effects of the poison without touching him. When Asta was fighting versus elf-possessed Gauche, he and the Black Bulls were paralyzed by elf-possessed Marie, and he still managed to undo the paralysis because he managed to control the anti-magic energy so that it would flow out of his body and affect all the members in the fight simultaneously. When he was put in trial by Damnatio and the Black Bulls invaded the court, Damnatio casted Scale Magic, which reduced the statistics of everyone's magic - except Vanessa's, of course. And while this technically is not an offensive attack, Asta reversed the effects of the spell without touching anyone. And finally, during the fight against Dante in chapter 243, we saw Asta purge the entire zone from Dante's AOE gravitational magic, with a single attack, without actually touching anyone.
Also, Vanessa's magic requires the cat to touch a target to save them, so it simply cant save everyone if they are attacked at the same time (Ban alone can attack all BB members at the same time, King too).
This is just false. The cat does not need to touch a target to save them, and we saw this to be true multiple times, in every single fight Vanessa was present in during the elves's invasion arc, and we saw it multiple times during the fight against Dante in the chapters 240-242. And yes, she can protect all Black Bulls members simultaneously, because, again, there are multiple instances of her doing this throughout the series. In particular, the only times where the cat has been explicitly shown to touch the members was during the Witch Queen's forest arc. Even if you argue that the cat does always touch the target, the cat always does it passively and a priori, it does not fail just because you want it to. Even Vanessa does not have explicit control of Rouge, so Vanessa cannot make Rouge fail to save someone. In other words, even if it was a explicit requirement that Rouge touches her target, this does not stop her from saving anyone she wants to all at once. Also, Rouge can defend the Black Bulls by instead touching the attackers as opposed to touching the Black Bulls, since we saw this happen during the fight against the Witch Queen, which further proves my point that Rouge can defend the Black Bulls however she wants by touching whoever or whatever she wants (including nothing), so long as it alters someone's or something's fate in such a way that the Black Bulls are not harmed. That is how the spell works.
Vanessa's magic is quite strong, but its not perfect, and in this kind of fight when the BB have dead weight that can be easily one shotted, its simply not gonna save them all the time (rather, its counter productive to save the weak members), and this wthout counting magic negation users (that dont need to touch the cat, unlike Asta)
You have no evidence of this claim, because Vanessa has never failed to save anyone while casting this spell. Besides, none of the members in the Black Bulls are so weak that they become dead-weight. This is fallacious. All the members contribute a lot to the group.
There is also the option to trap strong BB members inside Perfect Cube btw, to make things easier for the Sins.
Perfect Cube would be instantly negated by Asta, not to mention that Grey can just change the properties of the spell and simply make it not trap them anymore.
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1- You are the one who doesnt understand. The cat neads to touch someone to change its fate, there are seven sins fighting, it simply cant touch everyone. If King and Ban use AoE attacks at the same time the cat would need to touch both of them to negate all the attacks, but thats imposible. Vanessa`s greatest weakness is facing multiple opponents, at least until she learns to make multiple Rouges.
https://z-img-03.*********.net/imag...59ddbcc993178d2fa5a4a98b8_257450_870_1272.jpg
Vanessa's magic is far from perfect, and again, im not even mentioning magic negation abilities.
2- Rouge CAN be dispeled. Magic Negation is not ofensive magic in any definition, is either support or defensive magic. You work on the assumption that Charmy wont be defeated, but she can be killed while Rouge was negated or simply that Rouge failed to touch either Charmy or the one that killed her. I will remind you, there are seven sins fighting, Vanessa cant save all the fodder. Im not talking about BFRing Charmy, i said trap her inside Perfect Cube (teleportation doesnt work inside perfect cube, so Finral is useless here). Again with Asta, the guy needs contact and that wont happened with magic that was already negated as there is nothing to touch.
3- Nanatsu's top dogs are Country/Large Country, the only Country in the BB is Asta. You keep overlooking Vanessa's weakness, even without magic negation the Sins can win. Restrain some of the BB inside Perfect Cube (Finrals magic cant activate inside it) and attack many other BB members at the same time. Rouge needs to touch the attacker to negate the events, but if say, Ban and King attack each 5 of the weakest members at the same time Rouge can only save 5 out of 10, as she cant touch Ban and King at the same time.
4- Charmy can easily be restrained inside Perfect Cube here, after that you only need to force Vanessa to completely expend her mana.
http://i4.**********.com/nanatsu-no-taizai/84/nanatsu-no-taizai-5039199.jpg
5- Meliodas and Escanor are above Dante, probably Ban and King too (but we would need to check each sides AP). Still, its irrelevant. Diane alone is more than enough to deal with the weakest members by one shotting them, this would end up consuming Vanessa's magic. The Charmy card is all good but can be easily outdone by trapping her inside Perfect Cube, and again, teleportation magic doesnt work inside.
If all BB arguments will center around Vanessa's magic then they dont stand a chance. Its funny how you guys keep omitting her magic's weakness.
https://z-img-03.*********.net/imag...59ddbcc993178d2fa5a4a98b8_257450_870_1272.jpg
Vanessa's magic is far from perfect, and again, im not even mentioning magic negation abilities.
2- Rouge CAN be dispeled. Magic Negation is not ofensive magic in any definition, is either support or defensive magic. You work on the assumption that Charmy wont be defeated, but she can be killed while Rouge was negated or simply that Rouge failed to touch either Charmy or the one that killed her. I will remind you, there are seven sins fighting, Vanessa cant save all the fodder. Im not talking about BFRing Charmy, i said trap her inside Perfect Cube (teleportation doesnt work inside perfect cube, so Finral is useless here). Again with Asta, the guy needs contact and that wont happened with magic that was already negated as there is nothing to touch.
3- Nanatsu's top dogs are Country/Large Country, the only Country in the BB is Asta. You keep overlooking Vanessa's weakness, even without magic negation the Sins can win. Restrain some of the BB inside Perfect Cube (Finrals magic cant activate inside it) and attack many other BB members at the same time. Rouge needs to touch the attacker to negate the events, but if say, Ban and King attack each 5 of the weakest members at the same time Rouge can only save 5 out of 10, as she cant touch Ban and King at the same time.
4- Charmy can easily be restrained inside Perfect Cube here, after that you only need to force Vanessa to completely expend her mana.
http://i4.**********.com/nanatsu-no-taizai/84/nanatsu-no-taizai-5039199.jpg
5- Meliodas and Escanor are above Dante, probably Ban and King too (but we would need to check each sides AP). Still, its irrelevant. Diane alone is more than enough to deal with the weakest members by one shotting them, this would end up consuming Vanessa's magic. The Charmy card is all good but can be easily outdone by trapping her inside Perfect Cube, and again, teleportation magic doesnt work inside.
If all BB arguments will center around Vanessa's magic then they dont stand a chance. Its funny how you guys keep omitting her magic's weakness.
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Oh, and there are other combination. You can just trap Finral inside and then use BFR against other BB members, something that wont even take 15 seconds for Merlin. As for Asta, he will be pretty busy with Meliodas, who far outclasses him.
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