black bulls, VS seven tealy sins (nanatsuno taisai)

[Epsilon_R]

"1- You are the one who doesnt understand. The cat neads to touch someone to change its fate, there are seven sins fighting, it simply cant touch everyone. If King and Ban use AoE attacks at the same time the cat would need to touch both of them to negate all the attacks, but thats imposible. Vanessa`s greatest weakness is facing multiple opponents, at least until she learns to make multiple Rouges."

1- Rouge doesn't need to touch the opponent to change fate, she passively changes it

And even if the sins manage to hit the bulls with their attacks, Rouge prevents that


"2- Rouge CAN be dispeled. Magic Negation is not ofensive magic in any definition, is either support or defensive magic. You work on the assumption that Charmy wont be defeated, but she can be killed while Rouge was negated or simply that Rouge failed to touch either Charmy or the one that killed her. I will remind you, there are seven sins fighting, Vanessa cant save all the fodder. Im not talking about BFRing Charmy, i said trap her inside Perfect Cube (teleportation doesnt work inside perfect cube, so Finral is useless here). Again with Asta, the guy needs contact and that wont happened with magic that was already negated as there is nothing to touch."

2- Asta has Passive Anti-Magic, and Rouge was unaffected by it. So nope, she can't be dispelled unless Vanessa runs out of mana. Also MindControl already explained that Asta doesn't need to touch the opponent. Burden of proof on you to prove that he actually needs to touch the opponent


"3- Nanatsu's top dogs are Country/Large Country, the only Country in the BB is Asta. You keep overlooking Vanessa's weakness, even without magic negation the Sins can win. Restrain some of the BB inside Perfect Cube (Finrals magic cant activate inside it) and attack many other BB members at the same time. Rouge needs to touch the attacker to negate the events, but if say, Ban and King attack each 5 of the weakest members at the same time Rouge can only save 5 out of 10, as she cant touch Ban and King at the same time."

3- Talk about AP? Ok. Out of the 7 sins, 3 of them are 6-C, 2 are 6-B and only the last 2 are High 6-B with one of them only for a minute before he dies.

Out of the Bulls, 5 of them are Low 6-B with one of them (Luck) blitzing as soon as the match starts even with speed equal. Needless to say Merlin/Gowther/Diane would be one shot before they even react (And Luck would easily know Merlin would be the most troublesome).

And thats not even like Mel would be unkillable since Yami with Mana Zone and Dimension Slash can kill him


"4- Charmy can easily be restrained inside Perfect Cube here, after that you only need to force Vanessa to completely expend her mana."

4- What stops Charmy from eating Perfect Cube?

If all sins arguments are assuming they can bypass Rouge, then they don't even win despite their AP advantage.

 

[HAKKAIDER]

you forgot to quote, when she was facing luck possessed by the Elf, and even so he was protected by the rougue, despite the rum elf in possession of his body (and the cat did not touch him, as Luck was in SOL

 

[MindControl116]

you forgot to quote, when she was facing luck possessed by the Elf, and even so he was protected by the rougue, despite the rum elf in possession of his body (and the cat did not touch him, as Luck was in SOL

yes, I actually mentioned this previously. Vanessa can cast Rouge and Vanessa's feelings feed into Rouge's decisions, but Vanessa does not control Rouge, which is why Rouge cannot fail to save anyone even if Vanessa herself is too slow, although that is irrelevant in this case because speed is equalized.

 

[MindControl116]

Okay, so Epsilon R covered most of Siegfried's arguments, so allow me to cover the rest for the sake of completeness.

If King and Ban use AoE attacks at the same time the cat would need to touch both of them to negate all the attacks, but thats imposible.

It literally isn't impossible, and Epsilon R already provided scans, so I'm moving on.

Vanessa`s greatest weakness is facing multiple opponents, at least until she learns to make multiple Rouges. Vanessa's magic is far from perfect, and again, im not even mentioning magic negation abilities.

False. We have seen Vanessa face off multiple opponents before and win. Vanessa only has a few weaknesses.

1. She has no control over Rouge, so if one of her allies becomes possessed or mind-controlled, then she cannot attack her allies or stop them from hurting others who are not her allies per Rouge's knowledge, because Rouge will protect those mind-controlled allies from anyone anyway, even from Vanessa herself. However, this weakness is irrelevant, because Gowther is the only one capable of mind-controlling anybody, and this is assuming his spell hits the target. If it does hit the target, then Asta can negate it. 2. Red Thread of Fate is largely a defensive spell. Rouge is completely harmless, so the only way Red Thread of Fate can be used offensively is if Rouge touches an ally while Vanessa is wishing for a fate in which that ally succeeds in attacking the enemy. However, this weakness is irrelevant, because we do not need this spell to be offensive in this battle, it is already overpowered as it is. 3. Vanessa herself does not have infinite mana. However, this weakness is irrelevant, since Charmy is in the battlefield.

All 3 weaknesses are already compensated for, so there is no need for us to consider them any further.

Magic Negation is not ofensive magic in any definition, is either support or defensive magic.

No, that is false. You do not get to decide if magic negation is offensive or not, this depends on the specific verse. Magic negation in Black Clover is very explicitly offensive, and as such, Rouge sees all magic negation as offensive, regardless of whether it actually is offensive. Vanessa's own allies cannot dispel Rouge even if their intent is not offensive. only Vanessa can, by dropping the spell.

You work on the assumption that Charmy wont be defeated, but she can be killed while Rouge was negated or simply that Rouge failed to touch either Charmy or the one that killed her.

You work on the assumption that 1. The Sins are capable of blitzing Charmy. 2. That Charmy is too weak to defend herself. 3. That Rouge can be dispelled, even though there is no evidence for this. 4. That there is any lag between Vanessa dropping the spell and recasting it, even though no such lag exists. The Sins are not capable of blitzing anyone because speed is equalized, and because there are 12 other members they have to defend themselves from.

I will remind you, there are seven sins fighting, Vanessa cant save all the fodder.

1. I will remind you, there are 14 Black Bulls members. Yami, Henry, Zora, Asta, Noelle, Luck, Magma, Gauche, Grey, Gordon, Vanessa, Charmy, Finral, and Nero. 2. Charmy is no fodder. She has some of the highest AP feats of the entire Black Bulls.

Again with Asta, the guy needs contact and that wont happened with magic that was already negated as there is nothing to touch.

I already debunked this claim with the examples that I gave earlier in the thread.

You keep overlooking Vanessa's weakness, even without magic negation the Sins can win.

I am not overlooking her weaknesses, since I already talked about how the Black Bulls compensate for those. You are just not understanding how her spell works, since you keep making false claims that she cannot defend multiple people at once, even though this was already debunked with scans. Do not blame me for understanding the Black Clover series better than you do

Also, what makes you think YOU are not overlooking Merlin's or Meliodas' weaknesses? You are acting as though I am biased towards the Black Clover universe, even though this is false, as I love both NNT and Black Clover, and I should mention I am one of the seemingly few people who are not upset at the Revival of Chaos arc or who did not drop the series after the first fight against the Demon King. That is how devoted I am towards NNT. So, no, I am not biased here. I have not overlooked any weaknesses, and I have been very thorough with how Vanessa's spell works.

Restrain some of the BB inside Perfect Cube (Finrals magic cant activate inside it) and attack many other BB members at the same time. Rouge needs to touch the attacker to negate the events, but if say, Ban and King attack each 5 of the weakest members at the same time Rouge can only save 5 out of 10, as she cant touch Ban and King at the same time.

...what? First of all, there are 14 Black Bulls, not 10, and second of all, Perfect Cube is useless because Asta is there.

Meliodas and Escanor are above Dante,

There is no evidence for this.

Still, its irrelevant. Diane alone is more than enough to deal with the weakest members by one shotting them, this would end up consuming Vanessa's magic.

PPFT. Have you looked at Diane's AP? Go to her profile.

If all BB arguments will center around Vanessa's magic then they dont stand a chance. Its funny how you guys keep omitting her magic's weakness.

It's funny how you don't understand her weakness. And it's funny how you ignore that the Sins cannot blitz the Bulls, or that there are a whole 14 of them. Yami was able to hold his own against 3 fighters who were at least on the same AP level as him, and this was before the elves' invasion arc. He is not going to struggle in a fight where, mathematically, each Sin has to take care of 2 Bulls.

 

[MindControl116]

Oh, and there are other combination. You can just trap Finral inside and then use BFR against other BB members, something that wont even take 15 seconds for Merlin. As for Asta, he will be pretty busy with Meliodas, who far outclasses him.

Asta does not have to worry about Meliodas, since the likes of Noelle, Luck, Gauche, and Yami can easily take care of him.

 

[Nierre]

I have a question, I asked my friend about this, and they said that it'd be a stalemate or the Seven Deadly Sins would win. When I asked him why he's stated that due to Demon Power and Meliodas' commandments not being "Magic." Also, Meliodas has a Commandment, called "Pacifist" I think, which would be fatal to the BB. I had no answer to this, so I would like to know what you think, Epsilon, and MindControl.

 

[Duedate8898]

Meliodas at his strongest does not have access to the commandments, which are definitely magic, though his darkness isn't considered such on the wiki. In fact, Commandment Meliodas wouldn't even work with the Seven Deadly Sins due to him being an enemy of all the races at that point.

 

[Nierre]

Wait, he doesn't have his commandments at his strongest? Huh, I didn't know that, I thought he just never used them..

 

[Duedate8898]

Nope, Meliodas wants nothing to do with the commandments. It's never stated, but I assume he doesn't have them or want them due to that being how his father possesses him and Zeldris.

 

[Chianli]

i smelll...fish

 

[MindControl116]

I have a question, I asked my friend about this, and they said that it'd be a stalemate or the Seven Deadly Sins would win. When I asked him why he's stated that due to Demon Power and Meliodas' commandments not being "Magic." Also, Meliodas has a Commandment, called "Pacifist" I think, which would be fatal to the BB. I had no answer to this, so I would like to know what you think, Epsilon, and MindControl.

Meliodas destroyed the Commandments after acquiring Demon King powers. If he had not, he would be possessed by them, and he would be an enemy of NNT and Britannia as a whole. Also, I do not know where in the manga has it been stated that the Commandments are not magic, especially since the Commandments are just fragments of the Demon King's powers that gifted to high-ranking demons. The Demon King's powers have never been stated to not be magic. In fact, the series has never made a proper distinction between powers that constitute magic and powers that are not magic.

However, even if the Commandments were not magic, and even if the Commandments had not been destroyed, and even if the Commandments did not lead Meliodas to become an enemy of Britannia, NNT still would not win this battle. The Ten Commandments do not grant Meliodas any abilities that enable him to circumvent Red Thread of Fate. In fact, the Commandment "Pacifism" prevents Diane, King, Ban, and Escanor from actually killing anybody.

Unless NNT can circumvent Red Thread of Fate, it is 10000% impossible for them to win this battle.

 

[MindControl116]

https://*********.com/Manga/Nanatsu-no-Taizai/Chapter-332--Reparations?id=566605

The link above links to chapter 332, in which, after the fight against the Demon King, and after having a brief conversation with Zeldris about what they want to do with their lives, Meliodas destroyed the Ten Commandments with his better-than-Demon-King mode.

 

[MindControl116]

Escanor

- All of his abilities and powers, including those coming from Sacred Treasure: Divine Axe Rhitta, are exclusively offensive. They are completely invalidated by Red Thread of Fate.

- None of these spell or abilities are capable of negating Fate Manipulation, nor can they negate Anti-Magic Energy.

- Escanor has no resistance to power nullification.

Diane

- She has no resistance to fate manipulation, nor any abilities capable of negating it or negating magic in general.

- She has no resistance to power nullification.

King

- Disaster is countered by Nero's sealing magic.

- None of the offensive abilities can negate or resist Fate Manipulation.

- None of his abilities can negate magic.

- He has no resistance to power nullification.

Gowther

- Can bypass Fate Manipulation via mind-control if it hits a Black Bull. However, Red Thread of Fate would prevent the Black Bulls from being hit by a mind-control attack.

- Asta's anti-magic energy negates mind control.

- He has no resistance to power nullification.

Ba

- He has no resistance to power nullification nor to fate manipulation.

- He has no power nullification himself.

- Hunter Fest can drain everyone's physical strength and speed. However, it does not drain magical power, meaning that Vanessa's mana reserves are intact, so she can continue maintiaing Red Thread of Fate. While Ban can now blitz people temporarily, his attacks still will not land due to Red Thread of Fate, invalidating any strategy that relies on Hunter Fest.

Merli

- Enchant: Infinity, regardless of whether used offensively or not, is useless, because whatever magic she enhances with this spell will still be negated by Asta's anti-magic.

- Absolute Cancel can be resisted by extraordinarily powerful magic. Henry's magic would be an example, since it fits the bill of the types of magic that have been demonstrated to resist it, such, as the magic that gave Gowther life.

- Absolute Cancel does not affect non-magic, meaning it does not affect anti-magic.

- Automatic Seeking is invalidated by Red Thread of Fate.

- Curse Engage is negated by anti-magic.

- Illusions can be negated by anti-magic, eaten by Charmy's meal magic, converted into useless magic by Grey, and protected against by Red Thread of Fate.

- Perfect Cube can be dealt with by Asta, Grey, or Nero.

- Magic Seal could theoretically work against the Vanessa-Charmy duo, but Nero would unseal their magic. Additionally, Merlin could seal Nero's own magic, theoretically, but Asta would nullify the seals. Asta does not have magic, and anti-magic has been stated both in the guidebook and the manga to not be magic, but a rather a stopgap energy power from a no-mana devil. So you cannot seal his anti-magic.

- Of course, the above assumes Magic Seal can even hit the Black Bulls, which it cannot, because we know that Magic Seal counts as an offensive attack, as demonstrated by the fact that Chandler was able to use Full Counter on it. As it counts as offensive magic nullification, Red Thread of Fate invalidates it.

- Teleportation is the one spell that is actually hypothetically "threatening," because Merlin can temporarily BFR any amount of people from the Black Bulls to anywhere at least a hundred miles away from the place. Since this is no attack, Red Thread of Fate does not invalidate it. Asta cannot negate it since it is instant. However, since it has never been stated or shown Merlin can teleport beyond a few hundred miles away, it can be easily assumed anyone teleported away will be able to return to the battlefield rather quickly. Since speed is equalized, we must assume that everyone can move either at FTL, or at massively hypersonic speeds. The worst case scenario for the Black Bulls is if speed is equalized to massively hypersonic speeds, the lowest recorded speed for the strongest version of each sin. For the sake of argument, let us absolutely lowball the speed of the Black Bulls to the very minimum massively hypersonic speed, which is Mach 100, or 343 km/s. Since we are assuming the very worst possible case scenario for the Black Bulls, let us assume Merlin can teleport them a little less than 1000 miles away. 1000 miles = 1 609.344 km exactly. The BFRd members of the Black Bulls have to travel a little less than 1 609.344 km while traveling 343 km every second. Then, 1 609.344/343 is approximately 4.691 965 01. In other words, it would take them literally less than 5 seconds to return to the battlefield to aid and rescue the other members. And this is assuming the very worst scenario. Merlin would need to be able to teleport them at least a few thousand miles away to make a difference, but her biggest teleportation feats only are a few hundred miles, and it has never been stated or shown her teleportation has infinite range. This calculation is important, because Vanessa is not going to run out of mana in a mere 5 seconds.

- Untraceable and Transparency are invalidated by ki from Yami and Asta, since it allows them to trace untraceable spells.

Meliodas

- Has no resistance to fate manipulation or power nullification.

- Mid Regenerationn is invalidated by Dark Magic: Dark Cloaked Dimensional Slash.

- Counter Vanish does not work on anti-magic, since it is not magic.

- Meliodas can eat souls, but this is invalidated by Red Thread of Fate, is countered by Nero's soul manipulation, and this is also genuinely out of character for Meliodas to do, anyway.

Also, none of the sins have aura manipulation, meaning that Charmy will do just fine replenishing Vanessa's mana.

TL;DR: There is legitimately nothing NNT can do to bypass Red Thread of Fate and be able to harm the Black Bulls. Even with speed equalized, even if we give Meliodas the Ten Commandments AND somehow give him control over his own body too anyway, even if we lowball the Black Bulls' speed post-equalization, even if we give Merlin a teleportation range of 1000 miles, which she probably does not have, even if we make Meliodas bloodlusted and out of character so that he is willing to eat souls, even if we allow for Magic Sealing to somehow bypass Red Thread of Fate, even if we allow for Gowther's Mind-Control attacks to touch their opponents, even if we give Ban his immortality back, even if we allow for Escanor to use The One Ultimate permanently without dying... even if we apply all of these handicaps against the Black Bulls, they STILL would not lose. It would be a stalemate, yes, but NNT would not win. All these nonexisting unfair advantages that the NNT canonically don't have still wouldn't grant them victory against the Black Bulls because there is no possible way they can bypass anti-magic, thread magic, sealing magic, transformation magic, meal magic, and indefinite mana restoration all at once even with those advantages, especially since only three of the NNT have ways to account for any one of those at all, and they still lack the ability to deal with the compensation.

If this thorough analysis is not convincing you, then I don't know what will.

 

[Chianli]

destroyed right there

 

[HAKKAIDER]

FATALITY.... FLAWERS VICTORY

 

[Ah_Gou]

He's pretty easy to debunk since Black Bulls have even less resistance to NNT characters if i start listing abilities. However i am 100% not reading all of that.

 

[Nierre]

Thank you guys for the responses.

 

[MindControl116]

He's pretty easy to debunk since Black Bulls have even less resistance to NNT characters if i start listing abilities. However i am 100% not reading all of that.

Yes, it's obvious you didn't read it, because I already listed every ability the NNT have, and I already explained why none of them can do anything to the Black Bulls.

Next time, if you're not going to bother reading and provide a relevant counterargument, then don't give an opinion.

 

[Chianli]

i fon wanna say the word, but...

 

[Chianli]

the people that are saying that the sins win...

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

He's pretty easy to debunk since Black Bulls have even less resistance to NNT characters if i start listing abilities. However i am 100% not reading all of that.

Yes, it's obvious you didn't read it, because I already listed every ability the NNT have, and I already explained why none of them can do anything to the Black Bulls.

Next time, if you're not going to bother reading and provide a relevant counterargument, then don't give an opinion.

The only thing I want to add is that even Zora can put a glyph to reflect magic because that is literally his power, a 9-B who can counter 5 low 6-B attacks two times (and the second time was when the attack was reflected by asta so the whole attack is x4 the original value) with the same glyph and the glyph was still not broken

 

[MindControl116]

Exactly. I haven't even talked about Zora or the other members as extensively as I have talked about Asta, Vanessa, or Charmy, but all the other members in the Black Bulls themselves have a ton of hacks as well that allow them to hold their own in this battle. That's the thing. Merlin can get rid of Charmy, Asta, Grey, Nero, Vanessa, and Finral for a maximum of 4.7 seconds (although, going by more realistic calculations, they'll be away from the battlefield for 1 second at most), but that small amount of time is not going to be enough for the sins to win. It's still 8 Bulls vs 7 sins for that amount of time, and Yami by himself can easily take on 2 sins, since he is one of the highest scaling mages in the entirety of Black Clover. Especially now that Yami has those new spells showcased in chapter 245. Or, he can try taking on the tank that is Meliodas by himself, and that cares of the arguably the only member that can really hurt the Bulls significantly. Gauche has mirror-brigade, which effectively multiplies a particular member's AP tenfold, and he can apply this to Luck, Noelle, or Yami, them being the strongest members of the Bulls. This would signify problems for the Sins. Henry has what could be considered a giant mecha on top of that, and said mecha can be easily upgraded with Zora's trap magic. And Gordon has poison magic, which if it does hit, it can weaken someone like Diane pretty significantly.

But all in all, the Sins don't have a way of winning, because every single attack or technique ever developed or used by the sins can be invalidated by some spells from the Bulls. Every single one.

 

[Chance44224422]

Even though the Black Clover team "might win" from hax magic negation abilities and such. You are greatly overestimating the durability and speed of the Black Bulls and greatly underestimating the AP and Speed of the Seven Deadly Sins. 2 of the Seven Deadly Sins have AP close to moon level(Merlin and King), 1 of the Seven deadly sins has more than moon level but less than planet level(Ban), and 2 of the Seven Deadly Sins have AP close to Planet Level(Meliodas and Escanor. Also Merlin is LightSpeed, and Meliodas, Escanor, and Ban are all FTL. I have feats for everything I have said if you want the feats. Meliodas, Escanor, and Ban could all solo the verse if we based it off of AP, Durability, and Speed. BUT I will say that the abilities of the Black Clovers counter most of the Sins. My personal favorite character in NNT is Escanor but I can agree that he will have no use in this fight as Black Bulls have abilities to counter the seven deadly sins. My main argument is that Meliodas will be able to solo the Black Bulls. All of the other six sins will be countered but they will get some damage before being restrained. I have feats that prove Meliodas is Planet Level in AP and Durability and is FTL. He would easily kill Yami if they had a 1v1 like some argued and he has the speed and power to easily kill all of the unimportant Black Bulls. Meliodas also has Trillion Dark which is extremely powerful. Trillion dark could kill multiple Black Bulls and leave the rest heavily injured and he can spam it which is why I personally think the seven deadly sins will win by being carried by meliodas. If you need proof of feats that Meliodas is planet level in AP and Durability, and is FTL, I can provide feats. If any of you have arguments for a way to counter Meliodas or Trillion Dark, I'm open to hear them as I know the black bulls have some pretty hax magic and would like to have a calm debate on only feats not opinions.


(I don't have the finished argument of their AP and Speed because I'm making a large argument with actual feats that prove my power of the NNT universe)(It takes a while to get all the feats of a large argument)

So far I think the fight would go like this. Seven deadly sins restrain the 7 most powerful black bulls including Vanessa which is possible even with Fate Manipulation. Then Merlin Teleports Vanessa away. Meliodas kills every Black Bull there because none of them have even close to the duarbility needed to defend against Planet Level 1000 divine slashes. He 1 shots (1000 shots) the entire black bulls team. Meliodas's 1000 divine slayer is much much faster than light and even if one of them could block it, they still don't have the durablitity to stop it from killing them(its planet level). And Vanessa has no way to get back to them within the time it takes for this attack, therefore fate manipulation is useless.

 

[Chance44224422]

And can someone give an argument for how much AP Asta and Yami have with feats and scaling if realistic. And what is the speed of Vanessa using feats. Thank you.

 

[HAKKAIDER]

escuro slash ignores ap

se ap é baseado em magia, as espadas de Asta ignoram ap

astas espadas negat re encarna├º├Áes

Manipulação destino virar impossívelo kill black bulss

magia encantadora reabastecer mana


Euity mana + fate manip is beast combo

 

[MindControl116]

You are greatly overestimating the durability and speed of the Black Bulls and greatly underestimating the AP and Speed of the Seven Deadly Sins.

WTF? The Black Bulls have FTL speed, while NNT only have Relativistic+ at the fastest. How am I underestimating their speed? This is literally stated in their profiles. The Black Bulls are objectively faster than NNT.

2 of the Seven Deadly Sins have AP close to moon level(Merlin and King), 1 of the Seven deadly sins has more than moon level but less than planet level(Ban), and 2 of the Seven Deadly Sins have AP close to Planet Level

King (Nanatsu no Taizai) is 6-B, which is Country level, not Moon level. Merlin (Nanatsu no Taizai) is Low 6-B, which is Small Country level, not Moon level. Ban (Nanatsu no Taizai) is 6-B, which is once again Country level, no higher than Moon level. And the only level between Moon level and Planet level is Small Planet level, which is Low 5-B, which he certainly is not. Meliodas is High 6-B, which is Large Country level, which is nowhere near to Moon level, let alone Planet level. Escanor is High 6-B when using The One Ultimate, but this state of AP requires him to expend his life force and give up his live, so he wouldn't last in the battlefield for longer than a 5 minutes. Also, High 6-B is Large Country level, not Planet level. This all stated in their profiles, which I took the time to link.

Also Merlin is LightSpeed, and Meliodas, Escanor, and Ban are all FTL.

No, they aren't. As stated in their profiles, they're Relativistic+ at most. Also, speed is irrelevant, because speed is equalized.

I have feats for everything I have said if you want the feats.

Yeah, right, and I'm Batman. You're not allowed to use feats that aren't stated in their profiles, that is one of the rules of the forum as a whole. If you wat, you can make a CRT once the website move happens and have the feats and changes applied to their profiles. THEN your argument becomes valid. If you don't think I'm correct in this regard, why don't we bring an admin to the discussion? As I'm sure you know, plenty of upgrades and downgrades have already been proposed for the NNT verse, and all the relevant calculations and feats have already been revised, probably more than once. So I find it unlikely that your "feats" hold any weight, but even if they do, they have to go through a CRT before your argument becomes valid.

Meliodas, Escanor, and Ban could all solo the verse if we based it off of AP, Durability, and Speed.

2 High 6-B characters and 1 Mid 6-B character, all of which move at Relativistic+, cannot solo a verse where there are at least 10 characters who have all been shown to move FTL or FTL+, and with characters that are Low 6-B and Mid 6-B. Also, AP, durability, and speed are irrelevant, because (1) speed is equalized, (2) many characters in the Black Clover verse completely ignore durability, such as Zagred, Yami, and Julius, (3) manipulation-based abilities can completely circumvent the AP difference altogether.

My main argument is that Meliodas will be able to solo the Black Bulls. All of the other six sins will be countered but they will get some damage before being restrained.

There is absolutely no way for Meliodas to solo the Black Bulls. Thread Magic: Red Thread of Fate prevents the Black Bulls from taking any damage whatsoever, and there is absolutely nothing Meliodas can do against this spell, because he does not have Fate Manipulation capabilities, nor does he have Resistance to Fate Manipulation. Not to mention that even if he can nullify magic, her spell resists power nullification, seeing that even Asta has never been shown to be able to nullify the spell with his Anti-Magic, although granted, we have never really seen him try his hardest to do so, either. The only way for Meliodas to be able to attack the Black Bulls successfully is if Vanessa runs out of mana, which is not going to happen, because Charmy has plenty of spells that allow everyone in the Black Bulls to constantly regain their mana.

I have feats that prove Meliodas is Planet Level in AP and Durability and is FTL.

I already addressed this point, so don't bring it up again until changes have been applied to the profiles of NNT. Moving on.

He would easily kill Yami if they had a 1v1 like some argued and he has the speed and power to easily kill all of the unimportant Black Bulls.

Yes, but this is assuming a 1v1 scenario. There is absolutely nothing he can do when its Black Bulls vs Nanatsu no Taizai. Why? Because Vanessa, Asta, Grey, Nero (Secré), Finral, and Charmy are present. Their presence prevents the Black Bulls from being damaged whatsoever. Even the act of absorbing a soul is impossible, thanks to Nero's Sealing Magic, which can seal a soul and suspend it.

If any of you have arguments for a way to counter Meliodas or Trillion Dark, I'm open to hear them as I know the black bulls have some pretty hax magic and would like to have a calm debate on only feats not opinions.

Have you read the arguments presented on this thread? We have written dozens of comments explaining why NNT can't even hit the Black Bulls.

Vanessa Enoteca's Thread Magic: Red Thread of Magic is a passive-defensive fate manipulation magic spell which resists anti-magic and power nullification. The spell manifests in the form of the red cat Rouge, which is formed from impossibly thin threads that cannot be cut or destroyed in any way. It cannot be used offensively, and if a Black Bull member gets mind manipulated, the other Black Bulls cannot hurt this member even if he antagonizes them. Also, this spell consumes a lot of mana. However, Charmy can replenish the mana of all the Black Bulls (save for Asta, who can't use magic, so he doesn't have any mana reserves). And all the mind manipulation powers in NNT are magic based, and so Asta can negate them with the Demon-Destroyer Sword (he can negate even stronger spells, since Asta outright negated Reincarnation Spells with this sword throughout the Elves' Invasion arc, when he fought against Lufuru-possessed Luck and Drow-possessed Gauche, as well as several other people). Hence, these two weaknesses are completely irrelevant, because they have already been addressed.

Asta has swords that are imbued with anti-magic energy, and he can negate AOE spells with these swords, and even rewind the effect of these spells so that a person has never been affected by them in the first place (there are a few feats of this: first of all, he healed the wounds of Father from Hage Village caused by a poison-curse even after the magic had left the wounds completely. He also negated the reincarnation spell affecting the Magic Knights even after the spell had already been completed, so that the souls possessing them actually were effectively expelled from their bodies). His swords allow him to either disperse Trillion Dark (using the Demon-Slayer Sword)(although, I admit this would be completely useless, because by its very nature, Trillion Dark is an already dispersed type of attack), absorb the attack (via the Demon-Dweller Sword), or simply just erase the effect and mana of the spell (using the Demon-Destroyer Sword, which oozes anti-magic and can affect entire areas, making it effectively an AOE artifact)(this includes causality manipulation). Asta himself can't easily be hurt by magic attacks if they hit him when goes into his Black Asta form, since then his own body is coursing with anti-magic. (An example of this feat is that Zagred used a spell that summons gross entities from the demon realm, which upon teaching the body, absorb ur life force, but Asta was completely unaffected by this spell when in Black form).

Grey (Black Clover) has Transformation Magic, and her spell Transformation Magic: Magic Convert can change the elemental properties of a spell to some other element of her choosing. For example, she can convert Gel Magic into crystals, and she can also simply convert ordinary objects into other objects, since we have seen her transform rocks into water, rocks into chicken, poison into cotton, something-else-I-can't-remember into grass, etc. She could turn Trillion Dark a very light type of material, such as water, and it would render the attack useless. She can also transform herself into other people and use their abilities. So, I mean, nothing is stopping Grey from transforming into Meliodas himself. In fact, and even better combination would be, Gauche casts Mirror Brigade on Grey, so then all of the Greys can transform into different members of NNT. But anyway, that's an aside. All I'm saying is that Grey could potentially render Trillion Dark useless, although her spell would have to land.

Finral Roulacase has Spatial Magic, and his spell Spatial Magic: Fallen Angel Gate opens portals that allow not only people to go through them, but spells and attacks and objects as well. This means that he can open various portals and have Trillion Dark go through, and redirect them at someone else. Granted, Trillion dark is a fast attack, so this wouldn't be easy at all, but it's a viable strategy. Not to mention that his spell Spatial Magic: Fallen Angel's Wingbeat can and will BFR Meliodas, especially since this is an attack the deals no damage, so Full Counter would not work on it.

Charmy Pappitso has Food Magic, which she can use to, well, just eat Trillion Dark, and then add this to her already huge mana reserves. This manifests itself by summoning a wolf that can just vacuum-suck virtually any magic and eat it. That's all there is to Charmy because that's Charmy's entire character in a nutshell. She eats magic to increase her mana, which then allows her to use Cotton Magic to summon sheep that can make food, and this food will regenerate the mana of her teammates when they eat it, and it regains it rather fast.

So far I think the fight would go like this. Seven deadly sins restrain the 7 most powerful black bulls including Vanessa which is possible even with Fate Manipulation. Then Merlin Teleports Vanessa away.

If she teleports Vanessa away, then Vanessa can simply return to the battlefield fairly quickly. I already made the calculations proving that, realistically, it would take any of the Black Bulls less than 5 seconds to return to the battlefield in the worst possible scenario, while in the best scenario, they could return to the battlefield in miliseconds. The calculations are in a previous comment in this thread. Besides, if Finral targets Vanessa with Spatial Magic: Fallen Angel's Wingebeat, then he can bring her back even faster. And in the time that she is absent, the Black Bulls still have other ways to counter Trillion Dark, as I already mentioned.

Also, you're making the assumption that NNT ca restrain the Black Bulls, but keep in mind this is unlikely, since they are outnumbered 7 to 14 (yes, I know there is a 15th member, but we don't even know what their magic type is, so for the purposes of this battle, I'm going to pretend this person doesn't even exist), and in order to restrain them, they would have to attack the Black Bulls, which, as I already stated, is bound to fail every single time. And even if you restrain the Black Bulls, Nero has Sealing Magic, which can break restraints, even ones that resist magic (we saw this during the trial when frigging Damnatio did my boy Asta dirty and tried to arrest him for no justifiable reason). And we all know binding spells rarely ever work in the Black Clover verse, anyway. Also, Asta himself can break free of magic-induced paralysis via the Demon-Destroyer Sword, and he can break binding spells (usually). So, this strategy 100% wouldn't work.

Meliodas kills every Black Bull there because none of them have even close to the duarbility needed to defend against Planet Level 1000 divine slashes. He 1 shots (1000 shots) the entire black bulls team. Meliodas's 1000 divine slayer is much much faster than light and even if one of them could block it, they still don't have the durablitity to stop it from killing them(its planet level). And Vanessa has no way to get back to them within the time it takes for this attack, therefore fate manipulation is useless.

First of all, it has nowhere been stated in the manga series, nor are there any approved calculations showing that this attack is faster than light.

Second of all, I already addressed the whole point about Meliodas' attacks being planet-level: they simply aren't, this is stated in his profile, and it's against the rules to use assumptions that contradict the profile that don't involve restrictions or equalization. Your supposed "feats" contradict the profile, so until the changes are applied to his profile, you are not allowed to use them, period, those are the rules. This is the third time I've said this within my comment, so I hope I won't have to repeat myself in the future. Also, if you want to talk about feats not listed in profiles, I can make the argument that Dorothy Unsworth from Black Clover is at least low universal, based on the fact that she can create an infinitely large glamour world 3D universe that obeys its own set of laws and send her opponents into it. And then obviously your claim that Ban, Meliodas and Escanor can solo the Black Clover verse would be incorrect, because Dorothy would be the one soloing the NNT verse. How do you like that? Of course, this isn't listed in her profile, last I checked, because this was classified as an outlier, and it was decided that until more information is learned about this spell and the character as a whole, we can't claim that she is tier 3, especially since, like, literally nobody else in the Black Clover verse is even close to tier 3. So, of course, I don't actually believe she is low universal, and so you shouldn't be making claims that Meliodas is planet level either.

Third of all, they don't need the durability to withstand Trillion Dark, because I already explained how their spells can simply render the attack useless.

 

[MindControl116]

By the way, I shouldn't have to reexplain something that has been explained at least 10 times already in this thread. If you want to be part of the thread, then read it. I'm tired of explaining the properties of the spells of the Black Bulls every single time someone wants to make a response. Don't be lazy and just read, dangnabbit, I've already done my part.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Please try not to make posts that long, it can make it hard to look through the thread.

 

[AliA95]

I haven't watched much of the black bulls, so I won't know much. My comment might be completely false, but hear me out. From what I have gathered, Vanessa, the witch, with her fate ability, allows all the members to be effectively immortal. And due to the BB being way faster, they will easily kill all the members. Gowther would just become a doll with Asta's anti magic. However, Meilodas would come back alive due to his curse. Obviously, if we assume this is after he gets rid of his curse, that won't apply. If we also assume that Asta can get rid of the curse, it also won't apply. However, it has been stated the only way to get rid of the curse is to have strength equal or higher than that of the Demon King, so I don't know how it will turn out, and Asta might be more powerful currently in the manga, although I highly doubt that. If Asta can't negate that, then Meliodas will resurrect endlessly, getting twice as powerful every time. It won't matter how many times you kill him, and Vanessa's magic will eventually run out. Meliodas would have learned through his endless deaths about each of their abilities possibly. He would then just use pure brute strength to beat all of them once he is strong enough. Of course, there are a lot of ifs, and I would like you tell me if Asta's magic will allow that.

 

[Epsilon_R]

1/ Mel doesn't become 2× stronger each time he resurrects.

2/ Mel can no longer resurrect anyway.

3/ His resurrection takes too much time to be combat-applicable.

4/ This isn't a death battle so they don't have to kill him.

 

[AliA95]

1/ Mel isn't cursed anymore.

I said that.

2/ Mel doesn't become 2× stronger each time he resurrects.

He had a power level of 32,500 , and when he was resurrected he was 60,000. It's not exactly 2x, but you should have remembered that. This is the only known death we have, so it's hard to tell if this will happen every time, but it's all we have to go on.

3/ His resurrection takes too much time to be combat-applicable.

True, it took some time when he died, but we have all the time in the world.

4/ This isn't a death battle so they don't need to kill him.

Everyone else was talking about people killing each with hax and stuff, so why point out me? And I don't see how they can trap him. He can also kill himself.

 

[Epsilon_R]

>"True, it took some time when he died, but we have all the time in the world"

Not really. According to the Standard Battle Assumptions page, if Meliodas is in a state that he cannot harm anyone for over a day, he loses. So even if he resurrects, that's still considered a loss.

Also, he can no longer resurrect anyway.

>"Everyone else was talking about people killing each with hax and stuff, so why point out me? And I don't see how they can trap him. He can also kill himself."

You don't understand. You can kill to win, but you don't necessarily have to kill to win. Also, it's not in Meliodas' character to kill himself.

And again, Meliodas can no longer resurrect

 

[AliA95]

I know he can no longer resurrect. That's why I said:

Obviously, if we assume this is after he gets rid of his curse, that won't apply.

Also I haven't read the Standrad Battle Assumption page, which is on me. And I do understand, I think. I knew that you meant that he didn't have to be killed. But what is the other way to win then? Trap him? That won't work. Sorry if you didn't get my message clearly. And yes, it's not in his character to that, but if it's the only way, that's what he will have to do.

 

[MindControl116]

My understanding is that Asta cannot undo Meliodas' curse, although this is irrelevant, because his curse no longer exists anyway. We know Asta cannot negate ancient curses, such as the one that affected his arms during the fight against Vetto or the one affecting Henry, and Meliodas' curse, if we apply verse equalization - which we are supposed to do, but people always forget - then it would more likely than not fall under this same category.

By the Standard Battle Assumptions page, since the OP provides no specifications, we are assuming the strongest incarnations of each fighter involved in this battle, and Meliodas' strongest incarnation removed his own curse and destroyed the Ten Commandments, so we must go on with the assumption that his curse is no longer present.

What other way is there to win? long-term incapacitation or immobilization, although in a battle like this, something like this would be incredibly impractical and would only be desired against immortal people, such as Gowther or Merlin.

 

[MindControl116]

Also, Vanessa's fate manipulation doesn't make the Black Bulls immortal, although I guess the effect is something similar. Let me give you a very concrete example of what her spell can do:

Meliodas uses Trillion Dark against the Black Bulls. Meliodas is the most capable fighter in this whole battle in his strongest form, and so he has good aim with this attack. Someone with precognition would see him use the move and see that the move hit and killed his opponents before it happened. But thanks to Vanessa's Red Thread of Fate, the precognition actually fails, and then when Meliodas launches his attack, it unexpectedly misses every single target. And the person with precognition would be 100% astonished at the fact that their precognition failed, because Vanessa changed fate with her spell. If Meliodas attempted to use Trillion Dark another 1000 times, he would miss again. He will continue missing as long as the spell is active, because Meliodas has no attacks that resist fate manipulation.

We know this is how the spell works on basic level, because when the spell was used for this first time, this is what happened: the Witch Queen has precognition and she can control her opponents bodies via blood manipulation. She manipulated Asta's blood so that Asta's body would behead a defenseless Noelle, and through her precognition, she saw this beheading succeed. But, because Vanessa wished for a future in which Noelle would be protected, her spell changed fate so that Asta didn't behead Noelle and he missed her, even though he was being controlled, and the Witch Queen's precognition failed, because she realized that the spell was changing fate.

 

[Ah_Gou]

But how is *anyone* from BC hurting anyone relevant from team NNT. Vanessa's ability is magic which can be negated with a single spell

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

But how is *anyone* from BC hurting anyone relevant from team NNT. Vanessa's ability is magic which can be negated with a single spell

Read the whole thread,this has been explained 6 times and people is still saying the same thing

 

[Ah_Gou]

He really doesn't. He's talking about some multiplication but multiplying Yami's AP (as he mentioned) by 100 would still be below Mel or Escanor. And he keeps talking like Mel is the most dangerous out of the whole squad, and all his arguments are against Mel's trillion dark which is fodder here.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

He really doesn't. He's talking about some multiplication but multiplying Yami's AP (as he mentioned) by 100 would still be below Mel or Escanor. And he keeps talking like Mel is the most dangerous out of the whole squad, and all his arguments are against Mel's trillion dark which is fodder here.

When Black Bulls has abilities to ignore defense you don´t need to factore ap in the fight

In this thread,we have covered how to counter all sins earlier,read the thread ty

 

[Ah_Gou]

And team NNT has abilities to nullify/reflect/seal or tank and regenerate like it's nothing from Yami's dimensional slash (Yami's slash doesn't negate Regenerationn) and Asta's swords can be teleported out of his hands to the bottom of an ocean or simply sealed. YOU kept explaining the counters BC has against NNT while NNT has the same counters. Ban's hunter fest would render all of them unconscious because that's what happens when you're out of strength. Or he can simply snatch everyone's hearts (both of these abilities can't be negated since no physical form or dodged by red string of fate cuz again, they don't have a physical form.