Ben 10: Re-justification of Low 1-C.

[Reiner04]

New standard:

This structure can then be generalized to any number of dimensions, which is why destroying a spacetime continuum is a greater feat than destroying only the contents of the physical universe (Low 2-C, rather than 3-A or High 3-A). For example, a higher spacetime continuum with two temporal dimensions (instead of just one) comprises a higher temporal axis that spans regular temporal dimensions that the entirety of 4-dimensional spacetimes, or equivalents to it are serviced by (This is similar to how the time dimension in a 4-dimensional spacetime continuum spans uncountably infinite 3-dimensional snapshots of the universe), qualifying it for Low 1-C. Unless fiction shows otherwise, a different multiversal temporal dimension spanning universes that themselves have their own time dimensions as well (not the same multiversal time dimension that services many Universes and is shared by them), or even a single universe with two active temporal dimensions, qualifies. The same applies to three or more temporal dimensions.

Well, as we know, as long as Universes in a multiverse has 2 time dimensions active on it, or multiversal timeline with different temporal dimensions than Universes, qualifies. We don't just have it accepted that all of Dimensions in the Universe are separate spacetime continuum, but also that all of them has their own time axis that flows differently (fast and slow), don't flow (Dimension 12) long ago. And timeline, a Universe, services all of those subtimelines along itself, in a way that present of all connected with the right present of all dimensions and you will only feel different flow from inside but it won't affect your journey at any moment. Means all of them are aligned perfectly by some other time dimension, which we know, is of Universe itself.

Then we also have it accepted that Crosstime/timestream is a super imposing timeline that is made up of parallel versions of the history, it contains Universes with different timelines, dimensions which are cut off from all other time and flows backward (chronorandomization barrier), and Dimensions where timeflows weird (forge of creation).

To quote accepted cosmology of vsbw:

This realm is the highest level of creation. The Timestream is a system that bounds all of existence with a system of cause and effect[6] (All timelines, all alternate realities, all of existence, including the space beyond[7]) in the form of a fabric. The Timestream is a kind of super imposing Time that orders all of creation Post-Annihilargh events from beginning to End. The Timestream is an infinite structure.[3] The rainbow and black void which orders all of existence trivializes everything as nothing more than insignificant fabric or paper, including the space beyond.

Ben 10 Cosmology

This page will cover Ben 10 Terminology and Cosmology. This page will use statements from the Ben 10 series, Novels, and Other verified information from secondary sources that are supported by the show. It will go over the Each Term and what each term mean and their supposed Inconsistencies...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Universe: Low 1-C (5D), Crosstime/Timestream Low 1-C (6D).
So everything is already accepted thing here one can read in cosmology page, I've quoted stuff here anyway so.. whatever.

Agree: @ProfectusInfinity, @TheGreatBanana, @KingNanaya, @TiltedFN, @Killerdrone123, @Phsccarvalho, @LuffyRuffy46307, @Godsatoshi23, @Shadowbeast, @007_Sulista, @MrLuk2000, @Boyinluv2002, @Fixxed, @DemonicDude, @Executor_N0 for 5D Universal Timeline (explained how 6D can be achieved but no stance given), @TheGreatJedi13, @Elizhaa, @Serlock_Holmes, @Planck69, @Lonkitt, @Firestorm808, @EliminatorVenom, @LordGriffin1000

Disagree: @Georredannea15

 

[KingNanaya]

I agree 1000%

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

I can agree to this.

 

[Georredannea15]

I think that is easily misinterpreted to mean that a time dimension that applies to many universes automatically makes the structure Low 1-C. It should be that it strictly only qualifies if that multiversal dimension is confirmed to be fully separate (i.e. basically orthogonal) from the regular time axis.

As I quoted from DT's comment, the extra timeline or extra temporal dimension does not give you extra axes.

The so-called axes are the areas of motion that are already in the coordinate system. Therefore, multiple timelines or temporal dimensions extending along the same axis will not provide you with an extra axis in this regard.

For example, if two lines extend on the same axis, this plane will still be 1-dimensional, but if one of these lines extends in the "right-left" direction and the other in the "up-down" direction, that is, if it extends towards different axes, these will give you the 2nd dimension, that is, the extra axis. .

The main purpose here is to prove that this time dimension extends "on a different axis".

I disagree. The overarching time dimension or one or more time dimensions encompassing more than one Low 2-C universes does not give you extra axes.

You must prove that this time dimension extends towards a different axis than the other dimensions.

And even assuming this is accepted, only the Timestream will be 5-D. There is no 6-D situation.

 

[Reiner04]

As I quoted from DT's comment, the extra timeline or extra temporal dimension does not give you extra axes.

The so-called axes are the areas of motion that are already in the coordinate system. Therefore, multiple timelines or temporal dimensions extending along the same axis will not provide you with an extra axis in this regard.

For example, if two lines extend on the same axis, this plane will still be 1-dimensional, but if one of these lines extends in the "right-left" direction and the other in the "up-down" direction, that is, if it extends towards different axes, these will give you the 2nd dimension, that is, the extra axis. .

The main purpose here is to prove that this time dimension extends "on a different axis".

I disagree. The overarching time dimension or one or more time dimensions encompassing more than one Low 2-C universes does not give you extra axes.

You must prove that this time dimension extends towards a different axis than the other dimensions.

And even assuming this is accepted, only the Timestream will be 5-D. There is no 6-D situation.

Agree to disagree.

"Must prove time flows in different direction"
Dude is on weird things.

 

[Georredannea15]

Agree to disagree.

NO! You know what you are doing, and what you are doing is distorting and changing the standards for your own benefit.

Anyway, even if this goes away, I'll change the thing above. It's completely ridiculous and designed to distort standards. I don't know how it passed without even tier 1 experts agreed

 

[Reiner04]

NO! You know what you are doing, and what you are doing is distorting and changing the standards for your own benefit.

Anyway, even if this goes away, I'll change the thing above. It's completely ridiculous and designed to distort standards. I don't know how it passed without even tier 1 experts agreed

Suit yourself. Standard is standard.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I definitely agree with this, tier 1 is a little easier to achieve and that's a good thing

 

[KingNanaya]

Reiner is always right, so idk

 

[Benimōru]

Following. No opinion rn

 

[Reiner04]

Reiner is always right, so idk

 

[Killerdrone123]

I agree

 

[Quintessence_PE]

That doesn't make any sense.

 

[Georredannea15]

"Must prove time flows in different direction"
Dude is on weird things.

Bruhh I just saw this.

Do you think the temporal dimension is something different lol? Add 1000 temporal dimensions if you want, if they all lie along the same axis it won't give you anything extra. The thing about dimensionality and dimensional layers/tiering is that dimensions extend infinitely along different axes.

If there is no evidence of different axis and direction, you can add as many dimensions as you want, it will still be the same dimensionality.

 

[Reiner04]

Bruhh I just saw this.

Do you think the temporal dimension is something different lol? Add 1000 temporal dimensions if you want, if they all lie along the same axis it won't give you anything extra. The thing about dimensionality and dimensional layers/tiering is that dimensions extend infinitely along different axes.

If there is no evidence of different axis and direction, you can add as many dimensions as you want, it will still be the same dimensionality.

Dude I removed that shit go make your own staff thread if u wish, get off of here if you wanna blabber about how standards are wrong.

 

[Omegabronic]

Bruhh I just saw this.

Do you think the temporal dimension is something different lol? Add 1000 temporal dimensions if you want, if they all lie along the same axis it won't give you anything extra. The thing about dimensionality and dimensional layers/tiering is that dimensions extend infinitely along different axes.

If there is no evidence of different axis and direction, you can add as many dimensions as you want, it will still be the same dimensionality.

well, the standard changed to make that direction thing not a requirement, so even if you disagree with it, you would need another thread to re change the standard once again

btw as usual with tier 1 things, i am neutral here

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Dude I removed that shit go make your own staff thread if u wish, get off of here if you wanna blabber about how standards are wrong.

Please calm down, this isn't that serious.

"Tie a golden saddle to a donkey, the donkey will still remain a donkey..."

Enjoy your temporary enthusiasm, you're trying to save something that's going to be nuked anyway.

Enough please, you've stated your argument.

 

[TheGreatBanana]

"Tie a golden saddle to a donkey, the donkey will still remain a donkey..."

Enjoy your temporary enthusiasm, you're trying to save something that's going to be nuked anyway.

Bruh.....what.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Now with these revised standards, I agree with this.

 

[TheGreatBanana]

This seems pretty solid, i agree with the premis of the thread.

 

[Godsatoshi23]

It's seems pretty straightforward, I agree with OP

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

That's the problem. This thread was passed without the approval of any tier 1 expert, and the fact that Reiner immediately opened it after doing this is a great proof that he actually did it for his own benefit, and the worst part is that this thing is very wrong and was rejected by the tier 1 expert in the thread as well.

He may do it for his own benefit, it's okay. But the problem is that, this thing is wrong and passed without really healthy approvals.

But it actually had support from a member who knows about tier 1 of the team

 

[KLOL506]

@Ultima_Reality

@DontTalkDT

@Executor_N0

@Planck69

@Theglassman12

@Emirp sumitpo

@Dereck03

@LephyrTheRevanchist

@Lonkitt

@CrimsonStarFallen

@DarkGrath

@Eficiente

@Deagonx

@FinePoint

@Elizhaa

@DarkDragonMedeus

@Celestial_Pegasus

@Firestorm808

@Maverick_Zero_X

@Everything12

@Qawsedf234

@Abstractions

@Sir_Ovens

@ByAsura

@Starter_Pack

@Just_a_Random_Butler

@Agnaa

Your input here would be appreciated.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

As I quoted from DT's comment, the extra timeline or extra temporal dimension does not give you extra axes.

You seem to have him misunderstood. Yes, an overarching timeline does not in itself give you extra axes since multiple timelines can be serviced by a single direction of time. However, an extra temporal dimension does quite literally give you extra axes (it's in the name: extra time dimension).

The so-called axes are the areas of motion that are already in the coordinate system. Therefore, multiple timelines or temporal dimensions extending along the same axis will not provide you with an extra axis in this regard.

Are you talking about a situation where multiple parallel timelines have their own time dimensions? Obviously "multiple time dimensions" in a vacuum isn't Low 1-C since it could be referring to timelines existing in parallel. However, this CRT is explicitly under the context of overarching time dimensions.

For example, if two lines extend on the same axis, this plane will still be 1-dimensional, but if one of these lines extends in the "right-left" direction and the other in the "up-down" direction, that is, if it extends towards different axes, these will give you the 2nd dimension, that is, the extra axis.

This doesn't really apply to temporal dimensions. Unlike with spatial dimensions, time is expected to propagate forward and restrict free movement in other directions.

So we know time most likely started during the Big Bang. But there is one nagging question that remains: what exactly is time?
To unpack this question, we have to look at the basic properties of space and time. In the dimension of space, you can move forwards and backwards; commuters experience this everyday. But time is different, it has a direction, you always move forward, never in reverse. So why is the dimension of time irreversible? This is one of the major unsolved problems in physics.

To explain why time itself is irreversible, we need to find processes in nature that are also irreversible. One of the few such concepts in physics (and life!) is that things tend to become less “tidy” as time passes. We describe this using a physical property called entropy that encodes how ordered something is.

The main purpose here is to prove that this time dimension extends "on a different axis".

I disagree. The overarching time dimension or one or more time dimensions encompassing more than one Low 2-C universes does not give you extra axes.

You must prove that this time dimension extends towards a different axis than the other dimensions.

And even assuming this is accepted, only the Timestream will be 5-D. There is no 6-D situation.

Here's the problem. You're acknowledging the concept of a "time direction" and taking it too literally to mean that time can be expected to flow sideways, backwards, upside down, etc. as if it were a spatial dimension. Time can have multiple directions while always propagating forward. Let me explain.

Say we have a multiverse with a dozen lesser timelines, and one of those timelines harbors its own time dimension. If we knew throughout a series that all dimensions have a similar flow of time (e.g. you age similarly regardless of the space, and you can communicate in real time across space-time), this would be an anti-feat for parallel time dimensions? Surely these "anti-feats" would imply they're all serviced under a single direction of time, right? Not exactly. We could have 2 cars, send them spiraling in opposite directions, and teleport between them. We would progress at the same rate, but undergo different directions. Not to mention, entertaining the whole "different directions of time" thing leads to a slippery slope. As I said, one could interpret countless timelines undergoing a single time direction as an anti-feat to suggest they're all serviced by one time dimension. But on the other hand, higher time dimensions already serve that purpose as a super-imposing form of time. That raises the question: is time flowing identically throughout space-time an anti-feat suggesting they share one time direction, or supporting evidence for a super-imposing form of time? See how little sense it makes?

The most ironic part of all this: the whole "different time direction" thing was included as supporting evidence in the OP already (lmao). It's clear that there are timelines with their own time dimensions as some of them literally propagate in different directions like backwards. In short:

1. Perpendicularity is not an additional requirement to prove a higher time dimension. Higher time dimensions are automatically orthogonal to lower ones, but not in the sense that they flow in different directions. For that reason, time flowing in different directions is only supporting/alternative evidence to prove different time dimensions since perpendicularity is a given for higher time axes. A higher time dimension could serve as an additional forward direction for multiple space-times, doesn't mean it's not a perpendicular direction. The temporal dimension section of the FAQ was literally revised to remove the "additional/different direction" terminology.

2. Agnaa and DontTalk have said before that a higher time dimension which serves as an additional forward direction for a lower time axis or multiverse can be Low 1-C (provided it actually is a higher time dimension and not just an overarching timeline).

Basically, to my understanding, most higher temporal dimensions in fiction (i.e. timelines) are presented as embedding uncountably infinitely many copies of the universe, rather than just being "another direction to move in" orthogonal to the universe. While spatial dimensions are generally presented as the latter. We already accept spatial dimensions that are presented as the former as qualifying for higher tiers, but we don't really make note that temporal dimensions presented as the latter shouldn't qualify.

While you could theoretically describe the process of the multiverse changing by adding a second time-axis, that is only a model on your part and not something actually provided in the verse. Given that, you don't really know whether it actually is time-dimension-like or just a set of finite states.

 

[Georredannea15]

But it actually had support from a member who knows about tier 1 of the team

I think that is easily misinterpreted to mean that a time dimension that applies to many universes automatically makes the structure Low 1-C. It should be that it strictly only qualifies if that multiversal dimension is confirmed to be fully separate (i.e. basically orthogonal) from the regular time axis.

You see, DT said it needs to be proven that there is an extra axis. But okay, I guess it wouldn't be healthy for thread to get ahead of this thread any further.

 

[TiltedFN]

I agree with this, seems pretty straight forward, for clarification, the time stream is a higher temporal dimension than the universe right? Which is why it's 6-D? Or is it because it views everything as insignificant?

 

[Reiner04]

I agree with this, seems pretty straight forward, for clarification, the time stream is a higher temporal dimension than the universe right? Which is why it's 6-D? Or is it because it views everything as insignificant?

Yup, Timestream spans entirety of existence from start to end, it's Crosstime that is made up of parallel versions of history and contains dimensions outside of sync with all regular time and dimensions with opposite flow.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Also to keep things in order, I'll say this once. If you came to agree then say so and that's all. We aren't about to have this nonsense where people who aren't the OP start arguing against those who disagree as if Reiner can't do that themself, no one wants to debate 4 people at a time. Those who disagree, state your reasoning and wait for the OP to respond.

 

[TiltedFN]

That's the problem. This thread was passed without the approval of any tier 1 expert, and the fact that Reiner immediately opened it after doing this is a great proof that he actually did it for his own benefit, and the worst part is that this thing is very wrong and was rejected by the tier 1 expert in the thread as well.

He may do it for his own benefit, it's okay. But the problem is that, this thing is wrong and passed without really healthy approvals.

Why are you assuming nobody in that thread is an expert of tier 1? When multiple staff have participated in such, it passed, just make a new thread and stop derailing. As of now, this qualifies for low 1-C.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Why are you assuming nobody in that thread is an expert of tier 1? When multiple staff have participated in such, it passed, just make a new thread and stop derailing. As of now, this qualifies for low 1-C.

Really dude...

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Snip

Hey, do you think you could tag Firestorm to review this?

 

[Reiner04]

Those who disagree, just state your reason and it's fine. If it's about standards even then it's fine. You can disagree based on you disagree with standard, idm. But I "agree to disagree" with standard part. And will only reply to the arguments related to the thread.

 

[Georredannea15]

You seem to have him misunderstood. Yes, an overarching timeline does not in itself give you extra axes since multiple timelines can be serviced by a single direction of time. However, an extra temporal dimension does quite literally give you extra axes (it's in the name: extra time dimension).

That's not the case, man. In the temporal dimension, like the spatial dimensions, it gives you +1 axis, and in this you have to prove that this temporal dimension extends along different directions and axes.

For example, when you extend 2 or 3 1-dimensional lines on top of each other in the same direction and axis, the plane is still 1-dimensional; in order to be 2- or 3-dimensional, they all need to extend in different directions and axes.

1. Perpendicularity is not an additional requirement to prove a higher time dimension. Higher time dimensions are automatically orthogonal to lower ones, but not in the sense that they flow in different directions. For that reason, time flowing in different directions is only supporting/alternative evidence to prove different time dimensions since perpendicularity is a given for higher time axes. A higher time dimension could serve as an additional forward direction for multiple space-times, doesn't mean it's not a perpendicular direction. The temporal dimension section of the FAQ was literally revised to remove the "additional/different direction" terminology.

The situation here is not that it is on a perpendicular axis, it is important that it extends along a different direction and axis than the other 4 axes.

2. Agnaa and DontTalk have said before that a higher time dimension which serves as an additional forward direction for a lower time axis or multiverse can be Low 1-C (provided it actually is a higher time dimension and not just an overarching timeline).

As you can see, there needs to be an "higher time dimension" in the place I marked in bold, and a higher time dimension with an extra axis compared to the "lower axis". And this is basically the "extra axis".

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Hey, do you think you could tag Firestorm to review this?

KLOL506 already tagged Firestorm and a bunch of others on the first page.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

That's not the case, man. In the temporal dimension, like the spatial dimensions, it gives you +1 axis, and in this you have to prove that this temporal dimension extends along different directions and axes.

For example, when you extend 2 or 3 1-dimensional lines on top of each other in the same direction and axis, the plane is still 1-dimensional; in order to be 2- or 3-dimensional, they all need to extend in different directions and axes.

The situation here is not that it is on a perpendicular axis, it is important that it extends along a different direction and axis than the other 4 axes.

As you can see, there needs to be an "higher time dimension" in the place I marked in bold, and a higher time dimension with an extra axis compared to the "lower axis". And this is basically the "extra axis".

Remember only the OP respond to this.

 

[Reiner04]

KLOL506 already tagged Firestorm and a bunch of others on the first page.

Do u think you can delete unneeded posts, like there are some mockeres or smth I'll delete mine as of now. Since it reached 2 pages quite soon.

 

[Georredannea15]

Yup, Timestream spans entirety of existence from start to end, it's Crosstime that is made up of parallel versions of history and contains dimensions outside of sync with all regular time and dimensions with opposite flow.

But I have a question; Where does 5-D come from? If you assume that's where 6-D came from, how did you get 5-D?

 

[Reiner04]

But I have a question; Where does 5-D come from? If you assume that's where 6-D came from, how did you get 5-D?

Universal Timeline that services all infinite dimensions with their own time dimension, it's in the OP.

 

[Georredannea15]

Universal Timeline that services all infinite dimensions with their own time dimension, it's in the OP.

So according to the OP this is 5-D, the Timestream that includes this is 6-D, right?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Do u think you can delete unneeded posts, like there are some mockeres or smth I'll delete mine as of now. Since it reached 2 pages quite soon.

Started to but my phone about to die.

I'll be returning to this thread later today, can y'all please remain civil. I'd like this thread to proceed as smooth as possible. Also right now I'm neutral since I'm not sure I've yet to grasp the additional time axis argument but if the standards don't require axis to specifically mention a different direction then it is what it is. Well see what more knowledgeable users and staff half to say, I'll catch y'all later.