Hasty12345
Username Only- 5,365
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Disagree because the OP didn’t finish the post with “rant over”
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Ben 10 Cosmology Downgrades & Other Things (Yes, this is happening again)
- Thread starter ProfessorKukui4Life
- Start date
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- Tags
- ben 10 ben 10 cosmology
- Status
Forthegood
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I shared the wrong link sorry that's my fault I'll update the link once I'm finished logging into my imgur account that's not what I was arguing for XD
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Forthegood
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Forthegood
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Notice how he says “here" while making this statement on Twitter.
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Except that no one is saying it. There is entire context for that, the show has only concerned itself with in-universe dimensions, there is no ******* way rex can travel to those universes for doctor holiday to mention it in the first place.
If there is just 2 to 3 dimensions then rex should be able to go there. Logic error.
Saying that they are universes only based off that they "can" mean as "episodes" that has nothing to do with the entire crossover use it interchangeably given that context is present there as well. We are saying that it is universes. This is what we call extraordinary claim.
Contextomacy fallacy.
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@Eficiente @AKM sama @DemonicDude @Newendigo @Liger686 @Reiner @VersusJunkie54 @KingEzran @Greenshifter @Mariogoods
What do you think about this?
Also, thank you to all staff and knowledgeable members who are already helping out here.
What do you think about this?
Also, thank you to all staff and knowledgeable members who are already helping out here.
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Obviously author statement can be used in this regards, given that there is consistency among them between 3 writers and is supported by the show. The "reasoning of generally disregarded" is only made for when we know that the answers aren't serious and they're likely joking and taking things so far w/o being certain.
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I think a Blog of Dr.Holidy Intelligence feats will be the perfect answer to whether she is intelligent enough to be taken seriously or not, That will suffice since she is the scientist character who is in question here of being reliable enough.
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As I have previously articulated, I believe it would be beneficial to fully complete the cosmology page, so as to encompass all relevant information on the subject. However, it seems that my suggestions have not been taken into consideration by those who are responsible for the content of the page.
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She can be taken seriously, there is already enough of answers by everyone here rather than joking her aside for no reason.
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The use of WoG should be fine. At the very least in instances where they give definitive answers that aren't directly contradicted by the show. On the subject of actual ratings, the 2-A universe should go, but I believe there's enough to say the multiverse as a wholeis 2-A (statements in the show stating it combined with WoG corroborating them)
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Except just because your knowledgeable in the areas that allow you to create and understand nanomachines does not mean you are also an expert in the areas that involve understand the multiverse. Perhaps she has the intelligence to understand such things, but that doesn't mean she has the knowledge of such things and has investigated them.
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The point is she is knowledgeable to get the numbers of dimensions mathematically as she said she did?
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A scientist speaking in their area of expertise who previously didn't get the fact that parallel worlds exist wrong, sure.
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Brian greene, sean carroll are all unreliable at this very moment because they said they don't know if multiverse exist. Are we ignoring she calculated number of dimensions mathematically or what?
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You are proposing the existence of anti-feats? If such a concept exists, then I concur with your opinion. However, I would also like to request that you provide evidence to support your assertion. This includes but is not limited to the time of the occurrence of the anti-feats, the location of the anti-feats and any evidence that suggests that the individual in question did not continue to develop their abilities after the anti-feats were observed. As it is well known that scientists always strive to expand their knowledge and understanding.
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The thread’s literal first topic of debate is not “derailing”. Stop.
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I gave my opinion over something blatant as everyone here doing. If they think it's really derailing as obvious as it is to be a argument then fine. If not then I am not holding their hands.
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In addition, I would like to express my honest opinion that the statement from Twitter should not be considered as a valid source of information, as it presents a leading question, which may influence the response. A more reliable and unbiased method of inquiry would be to ask a non-direct question such as "How many universes are within the verse?". I would also like to inquire about the existence of any supporting evidence for the assertion made in the Twitter statement and whether it is a recent addition or has been previously established.
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Also, after I checked the rest of twitter statements, it has been repeatedly stated to be infinite, and there was one non-direct question.
Now, I am ambivalent which wiki violation is this?
Now, I am ambivalent which wiki violation is this?
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Can someone sum up what's going on here? I've been off the wiki for so long, and clearly so much has happened with Ben 10.
I can't imagine how Alien X got to 2-A. Back in the day, any argument in favor of that was debunked, and considered wank.
I can't imagine how Alien X got to 2-A. Back in the day, any argument in favor of that was debunked, and considered wank.
Forthegood
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Tho Ben 10 has multiple statements for a Multiverse the writer even has an idea that Multiverses ranges from ad infinitum too Infinite which kinda goes with the leading question and quick answer.
Ben 10 Has a multiverse
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The timestream (which holds all the alternate timelines) was stated to be infinite in the show, seen in the video in the OP. Paradox also describes the timelines as branching "Ad infinitum". DJW also states that there are infinite universes, even with an unbiased question as you said.
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- Thread starter
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No, they don't. Those fan questions specifically ask about the size of the multiverse, which makes them leading to specifically extract that particular information. Exactly one of the reasons why we ban twitter responses as evidence. Especially the one worded ones.
No. The rule bans the use of twitter responses like these in general, and not contradicted =/= supported. The verse actually confirming what the answers specify would be what could make acceptable.
This is the only actual in universe statement that specifies infinite, and as I said, this one evidence is up for interpretation.
See above.
I understand this, but the problems I have with this are as I explained.
This argument uses heavy manipulation of terms that are interchangeable with each other all the time. Including here for Ben 10 as Zamasu gave a lor of examples off. Assuming dimensions are inside of a universe, much less infinite ones, simply because theyre called dimensions is an extremely big leap in logic that doesn't have evidence proving this as far as i've witnessed.
And even then, the amount of worlds being infinite is being put into question at the same time as this.
Not to mention, when you say "but he still says that they are dealing with alternate dimensions", is this referring to when he said to Holiday "You're probably looking at some parallel world thing?" Because if so, then this is another issue too.
The manner in which it's infinite is what im talking about, and its what was mentioned in the original thread for it too. It could be referring to time throughout the timestream being infinite, or the worlds being branched off of it being infinite in scope. Simply because the timestream has alternate dimensions doesn't 100% necessarily mean the number of each dimension in the timestream is infinite. As was said, the context isn't solid and up for interpretation as to how it's infinite.
Thats now how sources work. A source parroting another =/= automatically becomes a valid one, epsecially when in this case theres only one actual thing in-universe that specifies infinite.
And the rule most definitely prohibits one worded answers that are formed in uncaring manners made to answer fan questions that are hounding them for that information. The only 2 twitter answers that have any kind of depth to them are those last 2 that I linked. One contradicts itself and the other doesn't even mention anything about infinite worlds.
"Not contradicted" =/= this exists in universe. You have to prove that what your saying actually exists in the first place in order for the burden of proof to fall onto me.
Or they used Holiday to do it because she, like everyone else in her show, originally believed that alternate universes did not exist.
Just because a character is knowledgeable about certain things does not make them knowledgeable for everything in every particular case, and I don't understand why people keep repeating this here. Holiday is a knowledgeable character, but she is not knowledgeable on the subject of parallel worlds. And her believing it to be a shaky theory at first demonstrates this.
You do know a parallel world and a pocket dimension are not the same thing, right? Breach's case is nothing more than a pocket dimension she used to store things, which isn't the same thing as M-theory and knowing whether or not alternate universes actually exist.
Like I said, if Holiday really did have legitimate knowledge about the existence of parallel worlds, then she wouldn't have said they were a shaky theory to Ben. She would've instead thought Ben was lying about coming from one. There's a clear difference between knowing alternate worlds exist and not believing people travel through them, and outright calling the existence of parallel worlds to be theoretical.
And I can as well. If a character outright saying parallel worlds are only a shaky theory isn't somehow evidence to you that they don't actually know if they exist or not, I don't know what else to tell you other than you using headcanon against this blatant display of not believing they are real.
Have no idea what this is supposed to be referring to when this discussion is about her statement on infinite dimensions.
And? She's aware of something that, from her point of view, is only theoretical. Not real. Your just confirming my argument against her reliability.
Doing it again here.
Very big false equivalence here. Im saying Holiday isn't credible for this particular case because the subject of parallel worlds and research into space-time is not something she does or specializes in. For things she is indeed knowledgeable about, she is credible. Things that shes not knowledgeable about, she isn't credible.
Holiday isnt knowledgeable about parallel universes. Result? She's not credible to speak on them and how many there are. I don't know how this isn't simple to see.
By at best one thing, and that very thing being up for interpretation. Not a big leg of evidence to stand on.
No other series on this site uses twitter statements like these, so I highly highly doubt we make exceptions without very damning good reasons. None of which I agree is here.
One worded answers parroting each other doesn't make them legitimate sources. Again, that is not how a source being legitimate works. And the show, again, only has one possible thing to "support" these statements.
What I mean is that the one evidence you have that even gives any support to these twitter fan responses is the timestream being stated infinite, and like I said, this evidence isn't as ironclad as you want to believe. Its interpretation is up for debate.
Okay? You do realize a pocket dimension is also considered a space-time? But even with the benefit of the doubt, again, only a few dimensions were proven to reside in the universe, which cant be used to assume infinite other dimensions do the same thing.
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sorry for bothering but i would like to know why, it is suported by the infinite timestream so it should be fine since it is clarifying what it is shown in the series
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- Thread starter
- #71
Heads up by the way, I have work soon so any major replies I will have to wait on getting to until tonight when after im off.
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That's literal strawmanning entire thing I've said. No one said that dimensions here is “in-universe” dimensions because they're called so. But there is so big God Damn context.
I don't see anything like that in the rules? RRegardless in general. Not always. It has everything to be fine in this case.
Entire episode is concerned with alternate timelines, idk why it'll suddenly refer to the sky when the ground is all there is to do. Supported by various author statements and consistency with adinfinity.
Who is "we" here? I don't see anyone having problem with how consistent it is. Talk about yourself.
Oh man this is just GOD Damn not listening and putting a blind eye to everything.
How calculating something mathematically and having theoretical knowledge of something = not being reliable? I am listening such thing as first time.
Can do it as many times as you want.
And I am saying there are several theories in which we have calculated number of dimensions theoretically and believe so because, w/o that to be those numbers our theories will break off.
Prove yourself she is not knowledgeable when she can calculate number of dimensions mathematically.
Very big excuse, she has literal dealing with breach dimension and calculated number of dimensions theoretically and just disregarded a statement from a character who has face value of top knowledgeable characters in the verse is not something wiki does with any verse. She is not spouting non sense because people want her to.
Let's ignore the entire context and things I have said and say that dimensions are referring to universes by doctor holiday out of no where When the entire c crossover has n nothing to do with universes each time dimensions has been used were referring to in universe dimensions.
IF there has been only 3 dimensions then Rex would have been able to go there given that there is no device That can connect universes present there but doctor holiday said you won't be able to ever. Because even in-universe dimensions are infinite. Why forcing the dimensions to be universes in the crossover when it is being contradicted in the episode?
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Dimensional disruptor cannot connect universes. They can only connect in-universe dimensions, if they're just 3 dimensions, then Doctor holiday wouldn't have concerned or talked about infinite dimensions when she told rex that he cannot because there are infinite dimensions when they have no way to going to.
It doesn't makes any sense.
It doesn't makes any sense.
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how is asking about the size of the multiverse leading? to extract an specific information is the whole point of a question so idk what you consider a "non leading" question, if it wasn't infinite they would say "no", and even then they were not used alone as proof, but used along with what is shown in the series with the likes of the time stream, that it is infinite and with realities branching from it, which makes the answers about the topic and the series consistent to one another
it bans "generally" aka it depends on how is it used, and i never said "not contradicted = supported", in this case it IS supported via the infinite time stream, so it is perfectly usable, we can't use them alone without anything else, but if the series corroborates with it then there is no problem to use them to support what it is shown in the series
1 how is this up for interpretation?
2 even if it was questionable, WoG would support the interpretation of infinite universes
same to you
i mean, at the very least rex's world would be part of "the universe" as well, but from what i see the argument is more of the lines that the crossover would not be talking about "the multiverse" since no one ever mentioned it or visited it at this point in the series, i am quite shaky about this as well, so i will not make more coments on it, leave it to reiner and firestorm since they are the ones who made it a thing in the profiles in the first place, i concede on this point
if time is infinite then it would support infinite timelines as well, since they branch based on the choices made, infinite time=infinite universes, about the worlds, maltruant is talking about the time stream itself, not the worlds in it so i don't see the logic, the argument is that if the time stream is infinite, and throughout it the timelines branch of, then and infinite time stream would have infinite realities branching along with it
i don't understand your point? they are consistent with what was shown in the show, don't see how having only one in universe disqualify the clarification that the authors gave
1 the amount of words shouldn't matter, specially with question of "yes or no"
2 you need to prove that they are made in an "uncaring manners" because nothing indicates that they are, that and duncan himself saying that twitter answers are a valid way for him to give information about the series
define "depth", it is not an complicated answer, why would it need "depth"? you didn't gave any logical reason for the other answers to not be valid, first explain your "depth" point
except i already did? the infinite time stream, it supports what they said, plus you said that it contradicted them by implying death of the author without showing the said contradiction, you even said that it said the same thing by coincidence without any proof of it, idk what to tell you, whatever problem or contradiction you see to make the answers not reliable you to show, that is the proof you have to give
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The original poster has raised a valid point regarding the use of Twitter statements as a primary source of information, but it is important to note that these statements should not be considered in isolation.
The OP appears to be disregarding the fact that other Twitter statements may not contradict each other, making the argument based on a single statement appear weak.
Furthermore, utilizing the guidelines of VsBattle Wiki to support one's argument may not be a sufficient approach, as the primary principle of this wiki is to consider the context before adhering to guidelines.
The OP appears to be disregarding the fact that other Twitter statements may not contradict each other, making the argument based on a single statement appear weak.
Furthermore, utilizing the guidelines of VsBattle Wiki to support one's argument may not be a sufficient approach, as the primary principle of this wiki is to consider the context before adhering to guidelines.
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On the topic of brief Twitter replies; their primary function is to act as tertiary support at best for established lore.
If the series itself does not narratively make the premise explicit, then using such replies as evidence is a no-go, from my experience with other verses.
If the series itself does not narratively make the premise explicit, then using such replies as evidence is a no-go, from my experience with other verses.
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in this case it does, with the established infinite time stream
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agree with op
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Currently away from home.
I will be going over the OP when I get home. For now, let me just re-iterate the current argument for the 2-A Universe Cluster in the Ben 10 Cosmology.
If you have any questions, feel free to ask.
The corroborated writer's statements are what was used to confirm the 2-A Universe Cluster theory by Holiday and support 2-A total Clusters.
I will be going over the OP when I get home. For now, let me just re-iterate the current argument for the 2-A Universe Cluster in the Ben 10 Cosmology.
If you have any questions, feel free to ask.
In-Show Material
- The Space Beyond contains all Branch Universe Clusters.
- Per Paradox, the Clusters Branch to infinity.
- Per Paradox in both UA and OV, Each Universe is depicted as a cluster of dots in the Space Beyond.
- Per Paradox, there is only one Universe Branch Cluster where there is no Omnitrix (See No Watch Ben)
- If the CTB only destroyed the branching space-time of Ben's Dimension, then the other dimensions/space-times (The various versions of the Null Void, Legerdomain, Rex, Dagon, etc.) should have remained in their place as clusters in the black void, but that is not the case. All but one cluster was gone.
- Per Vilgax, all but one Universe Branch Cluster has an Omnitrix.
- Each Universe Cluster shares the same parallel Dimensions
- Null Void
- Legerdomain
- Dagon's Universe
- At least 99 others that have been enslaved by Dagon.
- Gourmand Trans-Spacial Bladder Dimension
- Rex's Dimension
- We know that Rex's Dimension is a parallel dimension to Ben's since it is in a universe cluster with an Omnitrix. Rex's Universe is not in its own separate cluster. Per the CTB aftermath, it's shared with a Ben Dimension. Paradox would not use Rex's dimension to determine if a Universe Cluster has a Omnitrix in it. He looks at the Ben dimension in the cluster.
- Since Rex's Universe is considered the same type of dimension as the various other Parallel Dimensions, it makes sense to treat them as parallel space-time dimensions within the same Universe Cluster.
- According to Doctor Holiday, there are theoretically infinite dimensions like Ben's, Rex's, and the Null Void Dimension, that are within the Universe Cluster.
- Each cluster represents a different universe timeline branch which, in turn, is a collection of space-time dimensions that make up that universe.
- This matches with how OV treats the term "the universe" collectively.
Other Accepted Material
The accepted secondary canon of the comic was used to confirm the At least 2-B, possibly 2-A Universe Cluster.The corroborated writer's statements are what was used to confirm the 2-A Universe Cluster theory by Holiday and support 2-A total Clusters.
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