Ben 10 Cosmology Downgrades & Other Things (Yes, this is happening again)

[DarkDragonMedeus]

If they're called Infinite, then they're High 3-A at minimum, Nullvoid also has the timelines being perceived as stars in the sky when in the Nullvoid combined to back that up. Also, even "Pocket dimension" is one of the most commonly flexible terms period. While Wikipedia implies it's 3-A sized, of course they can vary from 9-A sized to even 1-A sized. Some writers even use the term "Pocket Dimension" as just a generic term for "Existing outside the traditional universe(s)" which are more grey area statement. Grey area statements neither prove nor disprove though some of them can at least have some minimums for what they mean.

But I still agree more with Firestorm and Reiner for other reasons.

 

[Antvasima]

So which staff members think what here?

 

[Reiner04]

So which staff members think what here?

Disagree with the thread: @Sir_Ovens , @Firestorm808 , @DarkDragonMedeus

Agree: @Maverick_Zero_X

And @Everything12 still has to answer in light of thread responses.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

If they're called Infinite, then they're High 3-A at minimum,

This wasn’t the issue I presented with the statement though. To be more precise, it’s the credibility and context behind it that is the problem I have.

From what Reiner and the others presented to me here, the evidence used for the size of the Null Void are:

1.) Gwen stating the Null Void look like it goes on forever and Max confirming it

2.) An author statement from a novel about the Plumbers

What the statement itself says is more or less fine, but the issue is, can we take it credible as 100% objective fact?

Max is a character who, while having gone to the Null Void a lot of times, is not someone with cosmic awareness who is aware of the scope and the totality of the dimension.

One interpretation of this, that is currently taken, is believing Max is right and that the dimension is infinite in size.

But as I brought up here, there are other possible interpretations that should be just as likely as the first

Another interpretation is that the dimension is simply so big, Max hasn’t been able to cover the whole thing and just believes it’s endless

Or that when he confirms the dimension goes on forever, it continuously expands in size so that the dimension can’t ever be fully covered

Do you think the interpretation of it being endless in size from this statement has enough backing for it?

And for the novel statement, this issue is more or less about it coming from a canon source that isn’t on the same level of canonicity as the actual show, which is the Primary canon for Ben 10.

 

[Antvasima]

Disagree with the thread: @Sir_Ovens , @Firestorm808 , @DarkDragonMedeus

Agree: @Maverick_Zero_X

And @Everything12 still has to answer in light of thread responses.

Thank you. It seems likely that this thread will be rejected then.

 

[Reiner04]

Novel is a secondary canon and mind you that how much aware of cosmos Max is, he was aware of map of infinity, was aware of forge of creation that exist outside of time and space. Novel simply more confirmed that what max said is true. It's your burden to prove that they're not and all of this has been already discussed, so please refrain from arguing continously. It was also accepted by @Zamasu_Chan that nullvoid is indeed infinite. @ProfessorKukui4Life

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So which staff members think what here?

To clarify

@Maverick_Zero_X said that the Multiverse being Posisbly 2-A is something she can agree with

But she disagrees with every universe in the multiverse being a 2-A structure

@DarkDragonMedeus and @Sir Ovens haven’t yet commented on whether every universe being 2-A is fine or not

@Firestorm808 disagrees with the thread as a whole

 

[Reiner04]

@DarkDragonMedeus and @Sir Ovens haven’t yet commented on whether every universe being 2-A is fine or not

Can we not lie atleast? Sir ovens and DDM agreed with Firestorm response that was every universe is 2A.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Novel is a secondary canon and mind you that how much aware of cosmos Max is, he was aware of map of infinity, was aware of forge of creation that exist outside of time and space. Novel simply more confirmed that what max said is true.

The problem however is that Maxs statement about the Null Void comes from the original series, prior to Alien Force and the other sequels

Concepts like the map of infinity and the forge of creation were not in existence yet when this happened.

Also, why is the novel secondary canon by the way?

 

[Antvasima]

To clarify

@Maverick_Zero_X said that the Multiverse being Posisbly 2-A is something she can agree with

But she disagrees with every universe in the multiverse being a 2-A structure

@DarkDragonMedeus and @Sir Ovens haven’t yet commented on whether every universe being 2-A is fine or not

@Firestorm808 disagrees with the thread as a whole

Okay. Understood.

 

[Reiner04]

@Antvasima OP is lying as you can check sir ovens and medeus literally agreed with Firestorm and me on the subject. The thread was only open to evaluate, there is nothing more to do then agree with op or agree with counter arguements. You can ask Firestorm about the matter.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Omegabronic]

just to ad a point, isn't the talk about the null void kind of derailing? the topic of the thread is about the 2-A stuff

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Can we not lie atleast? Sir ovens and DDM agreed with Firestorm response that was every universe is 2A.

No.

Firestorms response was a summary of the previous revisions and why stuff was accepted. They agreed with the general multiverse being 2-A sized via the time stream.

The evidence for every universe being a 2-A structure comes from Holidays statement, something Firestorm didn’t explain why it should be legit and something neither @DarkDragonMedeus or @Sir_Ovens gave an opinion about like @Maverick_Zero_X did.

 

[Reiner04]

The evidence for every universe being a 2-A structure comes from Holidays statement, something Firestorm didn’t explain why it should be legit and something neither @DarkDragonMedeus or @Sir_Ovens gave an opinion about like @Maverick_Zero_X did.

Man can you stop derailing? Firestorm explained everything in the post that why 2A structure of the universe was accepted. And sir oven agreed to it. He don't have to counter you but have to show convincing things. Stop lying.

 

[Antvasima]

So which staff members think what here?

To clarify

@Maverick_Zero_X said that the Multiverse being Posisbly 2-A is something she can agree with

But she disagrees with every universe in the multiverse being a 2-A structure

@DarkDragonMedeus and @Sir Ovens haven’t yet commented on whether every universe being 2-A is fine or not

@Firestorm808 disagrees with the thread as a whole

Can we not lie atleast? Sir ovens and DDM agreed with Firestorm response that was every universe is 2A.

No.

Firestorms response was a summary of the previous revisions and why stuff was accepted. They agreed with the general multiverse being 2-A sized via the time stream.

The evidence for every universe being a 2-A structure comes from Holidays statement, something Firestorm didn’t explain why it should be legit and something neither @DarkDragonMedeus or @Sir_Ovens gave an opinion about like @Maverick_Zero_X did.

@Maverick_Zero_X @Everything12 @DarkDragonMedeus @Sir_Ovens

 

[Omegabronic]

@Antvasima OP is lying as you can check sir ovens and medeus literally agreed with Firestorm and me on the subject. The thread was only open to evaluate, there is nothing more to do then agree with op or agree with counter arguements. You can ask Firestorm about the matter.

if you want to correct the op that's ok, but please don't acuse people, it doesn't help

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, tone down the hostility here please.

 

[Reiner04]

if you want to correct the op that's ok, but please don't acuse people, it doesn't help

Okay. My bad.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Both me and Sir Ovens literally said we agreed with Firestorm, so I would take that as more or less us having the exact same thoughts as Firestorm unless specifically stated otherwise.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Man can you stop derailing? Firestorm explained everything in the post that why 2A structure of the universe was accepted.

Which is summarizing the previous revision threads, not addressing this threads arguments.

Even Greenshifter confirms Firestorms response is only a summary of why stuff got previously accepted

I doubt that Firestorm posted an explanation post for the counter-arguments. He merely summarized why the upgrade happened in the first place, I'm sure Reiner can make a summary of the counter-arguments though.

 

[Everything12]

Opinion unchanged.

 

[Antvasima]

Both me and Sir Ovens literally said we agreed with Firestorm, so I would take that as more or less us having the exact same thoughts as Firestorm unless specifically stated otherwise.

Opinion unchanged.

So Medeus, Ovens, and Firestorm are against this revision, and Everything and Maverick are for it then? That is not sufficient to build a consensus for applying these suggested changes, even though I also find 2-A universes suspicious.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

My point is that Firestorm didn’t offer an explanation against my counter arguments but only a summary of why things in the previous threads got accepted

He didn’t explain why the evidence for every universe being a 2-A structure, based off Professor Holidays statement, was legitimate and why my argument against it is wrong.

@Maverick_Zero_X clarified she read the whole thread and agrees with Holidays statement not being acceptable

I was asked to give further input in light of the thread’s responses.

(TL;DR - I still disagree with individual Universes being 2-A as I find the evidence for this extraordinary claim to be lacking and built on assumptions. The overall Multiverse being 2-A, while non-definitive for reasons the OP pointed out, is feasible based on the Infinite Timestream statement, thus warranting a “Possibly” rating in my view. I also think Dr. Holiday’s claim at the end of the crossover can work as supporting evidence for the multiverse’s size, albeit I’ll explain why I find it to be shaky by itself)

After reading the whole thread I’m still not on board with the universe being a 2-A structure, and do not see the Twitter questions as viable given that some conflict with each other, which to my understanding means information from the actual series itself should be prioritized. An explicit statement (not assumptions) from the series that the infinite dimensions are part of the prime universe was not given, so it doesn’t seem the burden of proof was fulfilled on that front.

Regarding Dr. Holiday, I’d say her assertion that there are infinite dimensions is her speaking theoretically rather than taking it as 100% objective confirmation, as she lacks Cosmic Awareness or the means to deduce the full scope of the multiverse (evidenced by her not even knowing the multiverse was real prior to the crossover). Regardless of how “smart” she is, her initial ignorance of the multiverse’s existence does cast doubt on the claim that she randomly attained an ironclad answer of the multiverse’s scope. She was made aware that the multiverse exists due to the events of the crossover, but how would she know for certain that it’s infinite? And no, being a genius scientist isn’t enough to say she knows for certain how big existence is. Scientists are not omniscient and can be wrong, even in fiction (evidenced by how Dr. Holiday literally said something wrong in the crossover).

Regardless, Dr. Holiday’s theorizing could be feasibly corroborated with the infinite timestream statement, which is why I’d support a Possibly rating.

@DarkDragonMedeus and @Sir_Ovens simply just agreed with Firestorms summary of previous threads

Which is fine. But they didn’t comment on what Maverick did.

That’s all I’m pointing out.

 

[Reiner04]

That is not sufficient to build a consensus for applying these suggested changes, even though I also find 2-A universes suspicious.

Understandable, but as @DontTalkDT said earlier. Either the universe contains finite amount of space time continuum's or infinite amount of them, it is irrelevant. As both are equally Fictional. Ben 10 universe already contains more than one Spacetime continuum and even OP can't deny it.

So if there are evidences, context to it, then it's fine. Which has been given by Firestorm and me in my thread and this one already.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Firestorm808]

Man can you stop derailing? Firestorm explained everything in the post that why 2A structure of the universe was accepted. And sir oven agreed to it. He don't have to counter you but have to show convincing things. Stop lyilying

Dial it back a bit. Let's not throw accusations.

 

[Reiner04]

Dial it back a bit. Let's not throw accusations.

I am really sorry for this. I didn't put thought and...

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Understandable, but as @DontTalkDT said earlier. Either the universe contains finite amount of space time continuum's or infinite amount of them, it is irrelevant. As both are equally Fictional.

DontTalk didn’t say this.

He ASKED if the number of space-times inside the universe mattered

Alright, so I read the OP. One thing I don't understand is the whole section about whether dimensions are inside or outside of the universe.
Why is that relevant? I could understand if we were trying to calculate a specific (finite) number for the number of universes. But for the question of whether there are finite or infinitely many in total it wouldn't matter or would it?

This does matter as this is about every individual universe being a 2-A structure. If the number of space times is finite, it’s not 2-A. If if it’s infinite, then it’s 2-A

DontTalk was asking why would the number of them matter

 

[Reiner04]

I won't comment any further as the thread has been discussed already, going back and forth won't help, and is only open for evaluation.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okay.

Anyways Ant, to clarify what DontTalk said

DontTalk was confused about the purpose of my thread when he first responded. What he did earlier was ask why the number of space-times inside the universe would matter to the discussion.

The number of space-times matters here because each individual universe in the Ben 10 multiverse, currently, is considered its own 2-A structure with infinite other space-times inside them.

One of the arguments from my thread is arguing against this, that these universes are not each 2-A.

 

[Firestorm808]

My point is that Firestorm didn’t offer an explanation against my counter arguments but only a summary of why things in the previous threads got accepted

He didn’t explain why the evidence for every universe being a 2-A structure, based off Professor Holidays statement, was legitimate and why my argument against it is wrong.

Per my earlier post, I already explained how Holiday's statement was being used. It alone was not treated as an absolute fact. It was just used to bring up the possibility of Infinite parallel dimensions in 1 universe cluster.

Her statement combined with the show's depiction, the accepted comic, and corroborated WOG were used to confirm said theory.

I also clarified the usage of the terminology based on the context of their episode.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Per my earlier post, I already explained how Holiday's statement was being used. It alone was not treated as an absolute fact. It was just used to bring up the possibility of Infinite parallel dimensions in 1 universe cluster.

That’s why I pointed out that you didn’t argue against my argument that it’s an unreliable statement, but just explaining what the statement was used for.

Her statement combined with the show's depiction, the accepted comic,

The comic however only supports 2-B amount of worlds inside 1 universe cluster. Millions of dimensions is not infinite.

and corroborated WOG were used to confirm said theory.

What WoG speaks about the dimensions inside a universe? Just so I’m aware which specifically you are talking about

 

[Firestorm808]

That’s why I pointed out that you didn’t argue against my argument that it’s an unreliable statement, but just explaining what the statement was used for.

The comic however only supports 2-B amount of worlds inside 1 universe cluster. Millions of dimensions is not infinite.

What WoG speaks about the dimensions inside a universe? Just so I’m aware which specifically you are talking about

I don't see how using a statement from a scientist on the scientific theory of the possibility of infinite dimensions to support the possibility of infinite dimensions is unreliable.

Per my earlier post, I never said that the comic was used to support infinite dimensions.

I refer back to the original thread. https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-tier-2-a-cosmology-proposal-accepted.143443/
We have Rex's Universe, Ben's Universe, and Dagon's Universe, Holiday's theory, Paradox's view of the Universe Cluster, and the supported WOG.

 

[Reiner04]

Also Man are we going back to how all these were discussed? The thread has been discussed, Firestorm provided context and summary of counter arguments and how upgrade happened and I also gave my 2 cents on this thread, now leave it to what looks convincing and what not. Your counter argument as I said I didn't find convincing, my counter argument as you said you didn't find convincing. Not to mention that majority of regular members and majority of staff member is not convinced with you. There were context, there were statements.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I don't see how using a statement from a scientist on the scientific theory of the possibility of infinite dimensions to support the possibility of infinite dimensions is unreliable.

That’s…why I made an argument against her being an unreliable source.

If you want to see this argument, my original post explains this in detail.

And @Maverick_Zero_X recently reiterated this in her last reply. A scientist is not omniscient and can be wrong.

Per my earlier post, I never said that the comic was used to support infinite dimensions.

You said the comic was used to help confirm Holidays theory.

Her statement combined with the show's depiction, the accepted comic, and corroborated WOG were used to confirm said theory.

How is this not using the comic as supporting evidence?

 

[Reiner04]

A scientist is not omniscient and can be wrong

Kukui, we don't need a omniscient character to confirm something you know? A mathematical calculated statement that has been done over research by a scientist that has been dealing with quantum mechanics stuff is fine. It's not a careless statement that you can ignore. It can further be added with infinite timestream statement to get what is needed.

 

[Firestorm808]

That’s…why I made an argument against her being an unreliable source.

If you want to see this argument, my original post explains this in detail.

And @Maverick_Zero_X recently reiterated this in her last reply. A scientist is not omniscient and can be wrong.


You said the comic was used to help confirm Holidays theory.


How is this not using the comic as supporting evidence?

You're trying to say that the "possibility" in and of itself is wrong.

I'm referring to my original post.

In summary, the primary source material alone supports an At least 2-C, possibly 2-A Universe Cluster, and 2-A total Clusters

Other Accepted Material​

The accepted secondary canon of the comic was used to confirm the At least 2-B, possibly 2-A Universe Cluster.

The accepted corroborated writer's statements are what was used to confirm the 2-A Universe Cluster theory by Holiday and support 2-A total Clusters.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

You're trying to say that the "possibility" in and of itself is wrong.

By arguing against the statement for it, yes. Because nothing says Holiday is objectively correct, and doubt about her statement was given from her lack of cosmic awareness, knowledge on parallel worlds and even initially doubting the existence of one.

I'm referring to my original post.

Okay. Then what writer statement, or statements, was used to support the universe clusters being 2-A?

Unless I’m confused, the WoG statements are about the general multiverse. Not a universe cluster.

 

[Firestorm808]

By arguing against the statement for it, yes. Because nothing says Holiday is objectively correct, and doubt about her statement was given from her lack of cosmic awareness, knowledge on parallel worlds and even initially doubting the existence of one.

To clarify, you're trying to prove that infinite dimensions are "impossible" in contrast to Holiday's "possible."