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Ben 10 Cosmology Downgrades & Other Things (Yes, this is happening again)

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Okay but I think nullvoid is infinite already being accepted, we can move over from things that has been accepted by "all supporters" of the verse and pocket dimension can very well be infinite, there is no retcon, we can discuss things that are in the OP, cannot we🗿
 
Regarding Holiday's Intelligence or Generator Rex's Scientist as a Whole

Apparently the nanite stuff in Generator Rex is built by the Earth Scientists itself, making them supergenius in nanotechnology Right ?. This information is itself incomplete. Apparently alot of people here including moderators and regular members are lacking knowledge on intelligent feats of generator rex. Some of those Nanites are capable controlling the very fabric of the universe ,energy,gravity ,Time-space, elemental ,all the things which makes a universe run. Notice something ?,apart from nanotechnology , scientists who built these nanites should also have knowledge regarding space-time since to make something the creator should have knowledge about the thing. Obviously Holiday also knows about this.

In the Crossover we have Rex making fun of Ben for being from a different dimension but he himself was taken to different dimensions by Breach, which he later talked with Holiday. Secondly, We have Rex time travelling with the help of Holiday which itself requires deep understanding of space-time. Van kleiss was himself time travelling and has the knowledge of timestream. He was also Time Travelling Through Various Eras of Time He was even to build one from the scrap and metallurgical knowledge of Roman/Medieval Era of 1500 BC .

OP points that unlike professor paradox, Holiday doesn't have deep understanding of space-time and her statements are only based on maths and calculation With all evidence provided above i would disagree with this .All the supergenius stuff they do is based off math and calculation All of this all together makes the scientists (including Holiday) supergenius and making their statements Reliable.

Even the canon DB cosmology is 2-B based off Trunk's statement just because he time travels.
 
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Omfg, how did i forgot how much dealing Doctor holiday had with spacetime, quantum mechanics, etc....
 
ImmortalDread

Theres a difference between disregarding them and not considering them as increasing consistency. The latter is what im doing because that's not how this site works. The primary evidence that we take for revisions is from the series itself, not the number of answers given on a social media platform.

Im not understanding this point here. We use our sites guidelines in arguments here all the time as to whether or not something being done here fits within whats acceptable and whats not acceptable on this site. Im using our rule on the use of social media answers in my argument because I don't agree with them, in this case, being acceptable. As others don't.

And to be real, this isn't the first time people in Ben 10 revisions have tried spam using the use of social media answers in order to give the series upgrades like this, upgrades that otherwise we normally require a lot stronger evidence elsewhere on the site.
Thanks for choosing the favorite color for my name. I love it, (is it a coincidence? ig)
In regards to the tweets in question, while I understand the assertion that they may be perceived as a singular statement, it is important to consider that there are other non-direct questions and explanations provided by the author regarding the structure of the multiverse. It would be inappropriate to disregard these additional pieces of information, especially when they are cohesive with the overall narrative being presented.

Moreover, it is indispensable to note that the tweets in question are being used as supportive evidence, rather than primary evidence. As such, it would be more appropriate to address them in a subsequent manner, rather than as the initial point of discussion.

Secondly, while it is significant to adhere to established guidelines, such as those provided by Wikipedia, it is equally critical to consider the context in which these guidelines are being applied. Utilizing these guidelines as a primary argument, while ignoring the context in which they are being applied, does not effectively support the premise of the argument being presented.

Lastly, it is influential to note that I am of the belief that one should avoid generalizations in all cases. While there may be exceptions to certain guidelines, such as the usage of social media, it is significant to ensure that all necessary conditions are met before proceeding.
 
Apparently the nanite stuff in Generator Rex is built by the Earth Scientists itself, making them supergenius in nanotechnology Right ?. This information is itself incomplete. Apparently alot of people here including moderators and regular members are lacking knowledge on intelligent feats of generator rex. Some of those Nanites are capable controlling the very fabric of the universe ,energy,gravity ,Time-space, elemental ,all the things which makes a universe run. Notice something ?,apart from nanotechnology , scientists who built these nanites should also have knowledge regarding space-time since to make something the creator should have knowledge about the thing. Obviously Holiday also knows about this.

In the Crossover we have Rex making fun of Ben for being from a different dimension but he himself was taken to different dimensions by Breach, which he later talked with Holiday. Secondly, We have Rex time travelling with the help of Holiday which itself requires deep understanding of space-time. Van kleiss was himself time travelling and has the knowledge of timestream. He was also Time Travelling Through Various Eras of Time He was even to build one from the scrap and metallurgical knowledge of Roman/Medieval Era of 1500 BC .

OP points that unlike professor paradox, Holiday doesn't have deep understanding of space-time and her statements are only based on maths and calculation With all evidence provided above i would disagree with this .All the supergenius stuff they do is based off math and calculation All of this all together makes the scientists (including Holiday) supergenius and making their statements Reliable.
Woah slow done there buddy. They discovered the dominion code, not made it, Rex's parents and Caesar putting it in the meta-nanites is impressive though. But that doesn't mean that every nanite scientist scales to this.

Rex was not time travelling in that instance, merely researching. Van Kleiss lived through the eras regularly (in stasis) after he got sent back in time by Breach. What VK actually did is build a stasis pod, not a time machine, back in Ancient Egypt and then improve upon it in Rome.

There is only a single reason why Holiday scales to the supergenius stuff, which I will elaborate upon if needed.
 
discovered the dominion code, not made it
Who discovered what?? It's first time I am hearing it. As per the lore I know, they said to made a "Little machine" (nanites) that can control everything. There is no such thing as they found something but built it properly.
Rex was not time travelling in that instance, merely researching. Van Kleiss lived through the eras regularly (in stasis) after he got sent back in time by Breach. What VK actually did is build a stasis pod, not a time machine, back in Ancient Egypt and then improve upon it in Rome.
Doctor holiday also shown to have indepth knowledge over quantum mechanics, shown to be aware of techyon particles, found it and explained it to the Rex that they're quantum particles that travels in time.

She was also able to detect the breach dimensions just by speculating the situations happened long time before.

Aside from all this she can calculate number of Dimensions mathematically. And our standards assumes the franchise follows actual mathematics unless shown otherwise.

Caesar and holiday has been in contact and helping each other frequently who was very well aware of parallel world's.

And, for the crossover part new Providence and old Providence were helping each other out regarding the situation world was in and we do know that Caesar and Doctor are in the main command when it comes to intelligence in both providence's and were the main ones who were working regarding these parallel world stuff from deep roots.
 
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Who discovered what?? It's first time I am hearing it. As per the lore I know, they said to made a "Little machine" (nanites) that can control everything. There is no such thing as they found something but built it properly.
Sure, gimme scans of them making the dominion code, I'll wait.
Doctor holiday also shown to have indepth knowledge over quantum mechanics, shown to be aware of techyon particles, found it and explained it to the Rex that they're quantum particles that travels in time.
I know about tachyons and their properties too, not impressive.
She was also able to detect the breach dimensions just by speculating the situations happened long time before.
English please.
Aside from all this she can calculate number of Dimensions mathematically. And our standards assumes the franchise follows actual mathematics unless shown otherwise.
Sure
Caesar and holiday has been in contact and helping each other frequently who was very well aware of parallel world's.
That's literally my own argument. Though they don't talk much in season 3.
Aside from all these, for the crossover part new Providence and old Providence were helping each other out regarding the situation world was in and we do know that Caesar and Doctor are in the main command when it comes to intelligence in both providence's.
Only Caesar did any cross-organization efforts.
 
Sure, gimme scans of them making the dominion code, I'll wait
Who was the what now? Bro these are freaking human machines.🗿
Where the heck they found something and put it into something Came from??? The very reason that it's a code Programmed by their parents asserts that they're made. The things you are talking about has not been shown ever and is clear headcanon. You are the one who have to tell and give evidence that machines hasn't been built but there is back story to it.

I know about tachyons and their properties too, not impressive.
Sure you do, How many times have you dealt with them? Never? That's all there is to it. And show not gonna give you professor asserted lectures about something, they'll tell you something that can be known commonly. All there matters that they have a dealing with it.

OP Argument of her being credible or not is done then, someone who is not making a statement carelessly and made it over research is definitely not something one can ignore
 
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The statement of Doctor holiday (who is well known for her intelligence in the show) is based of theories and maths she did, it's not a careless statement of some random character to which we can put under the coffin of unreliable.
 
I’m about to post my response to the larger walls of text soon.

But in the meantime, @Reiner

Once again, stop with the needless spamming of responses. You were already asked by me, and @Antvasima, to stop clogging this thread up with comment spamming.

If you have any other constructive stuff to say, edit an earlier response to include it instead of dragging the thread out with more responses. This is making the thread longer than it needs to be.
 
Once again, stop with the needless spamming of responses. You were already asked by me, and @Antvasima, to stop clogging this thread up with comment spamming.
Sorry, but that was my response to greenshifter, the thread is not about only you and me, if there will be the argument I'll have to respond to them i suppose. And ant was talking about the jokes ppl were doing that time of which I wasn't the part of and I am the one who is telling people to not argue unnecessary things that will drag the debate such as size of nullvoid.
 
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Responding to the larger responses now.

Reiner

This is more than enough in my eyes.
Already responded to this. Of course someone who wants a big upgrade is going to see this as "more than enough". This is a non argument.
I don't mind, I've convinced everyone and that's is my job.
Cool, and me addressing what I don't agree with is mine.
Basically everyone was convinced with this statement when I presented as Gyronutz asked me if there is any context this can be referring to.
Context that is being challenged in this thread, and people who weren't present in those revisions are now questioning this or disagreeing. SWhat was accepted before does not make it immune to being challenged. Especially by people who were not present at the time.
I don't understand what it means.
? You said staff off site agree with your take. I asked you to ask them come to this thread to argue against this if that's actually the case. Pretty simple.
There cannot be any better answer than that imo.
More as in you can't answer the question because you don't have a proper and ACTUAL counter argument against an argument that gave reasons to eviscerate her credibility on the topic of parallel worlds.
Sorry? A pocket dimension in Ben 10 is infinite in size. So it'll not affect the rating.
And I disagree with this now as well based on the evidence I see given for this. I'll be arguing against that here too.
Unless proven wrong mathematics are default to correct kukui.
Yeah no. You still haven't answered the actual question. When has math ever been able to grasp the existence of parallel universes, much less infinite ones, beyond reasonable doubt?

This is not remotely strong evidence of 2-A, and even if you want to have the benefit of the doubt, this is still from someone who doubted their existence in the first place.
Kukui, didn't i said if they shown to have something in common?
If there is a collection of dimensions they don't have to be exactly same, for instance "collection of planets" few planets can be habitual, can be deserted but they'll are planets.
That's all there is to it. They can have differences but something common among the known dimensions will default to all other In the given statement unless stated otherwise.
Again, this is bad comparison. But lets play devils advocate for a second and say what you are saying here is the case then.

You still haven't addressed the problem that these would be pocket dimensions, which are unquantifiable. And no, you can't assume all of these dimensions have the same size as each other based on the Null Void's evidence, where THAT evidence is already in hot water here as im going to get into later.
I still find myself unable to grasp this argument.
It's simple.

Even if we super generous and say all of these dimensions are somehow able to be assumed to be inside of the universe, and even if the number of them can be somehow considered infinite

They are pocket dimensions, which are not the same as regular full scale universes, so their sizes are considered unknown and not able to be quantified at a certain tier. And as I said, the evidence for them being considered endless is super weak.

He said there are as many universes as there are in the multiverse. To the question how many universes there are in Ben 10? He was referring to that number of universes in Ben 10 is all are limited upto multiverse. Nothing much.

It was statement about naljians dimensions iirc and shouldn't be link with dimensions as in sense universes.
Yeah, what evidence is there that proves he had the Naljians dimensions in mind?
His later post gives the confirmation that it's infinite tho. Which is supported by all other authors and by the show.
Yeah, if someone gives one answer that is super elaborated with a bunch of details and then that same person gives a quick uncaring answer in another instance, the former is obviously going to be taken as a more seriously thought of answer.

And even with being generous, this at bare minimum makes that person unreliable for giving different responses that clearly don't go in line with each other. He would've said the same thing the first time if he consistently thought that.

Sorry, nullvoid has been accepted to be infinite in size already by everyone including @Zamasu_Chan who was defending the nullvoid being infinite in size as well. If you want to change it you need to make another crt. We don't have to convince you for each thing you find unconvincing rather you have to convince everyone and get it accepted that nullvoid is not infinite in size.
This is a thread tackling what happened in those revisions and challenging their evidences. So I don't have to make another new thread to do exactly that.

For the umpteenth time, stop thinking what was accepted before is immune to being challenged

Omegabronic

can you prove that they don't care? considering that the massive plot points of ultimate alien and omniverse are about this, i would that they care very much
This is reverse burden of proof. The positive claim here is what needs to be proven, I don't need to prove a negative. You are the one claiming these answers are legitimate, serious answers. You are the one that has to first prove they are making serious answers to begin with.
how are any of these battleboarding questions? they are just asking an important part of the ben 10 lore and narrative
Seriously? Asking about the size of a given verse is literally a battleboarding question to ask what tier said verse would be. If you ask someone if a verse has millions of dimensions, you're asking them if the verse is Multiversal. Or 2-B in our sites case of terms.

If you ask if the verse contains infinite universes, you're asking if the verse is a 2-A one.

None of these super specific details are ones authors generally care about when their focus is to write their stories out. And the number of dimensions is not important to Ben 10 lore. The only thing about the narrative that is a plot point is the verse introducing Multiversal shenanigan's to the franchise, the specific number of universes is an unimportant detail.
see you would need to prove that they are doing that, we can say that Duncan at least isn't, since he consider twitter as a valid metod to give answers regarding the series
As I said above, once again, you are reversing the burden of proof. The positive is what needs evidence first, not a negative.

You cannot assume a writer has these details in mind when giving these answers out. Do you seriously think Duncan, Derrick or any of these writers for Ben 10 have "how many timelines did we write into the series?' when being asked these specific questions of cosmology size and giving quick, brief answers back? You need to be the one to prove this.
no, we have no reason nor proof of them being "uncaring" you are the one with the positive that they are "uncaring" so you are the one who has to prove it, i don't need to prove a negative
Claiming they are uncaring is not a negative. Claiming they are serious answers is the positive.
what is that supposed to mean?
Pretty simple to understand. An interview is an actual proper discussion between the writer and reporter/interviewer who, in this discussion, has the permission to ask the writer questions. So asking questions to the creator is fair game here as it's their job to in an interview.

But this is besides the point.
and that makes the direct questions about the topic less valid because? both are doing the same thing in the end of the day, so again, i don't see the problem
It's less valid because fans are the ones presenting these random out of nowhere topics to the writer's social media, topics they more than likely do not care about or have in mind for their series.

If the writers came to the conclusion on their own without being influenced by those questions, that would be one thing. But that isn't the case.

Like I pointed out, how do we know these answers were seriously made? How do we know they had these details of "number of timelines in the multiverse" in mind when giving answers back? We don't know that for sure, and at the end of the day, the claim that takes less assumptions is taken over what takes more assumptions.
you didn't adress my point, you said that the writers would likely not care about details such as the number of universes since it isn't important to the writing of the series, i explained why it is important in this case so by your logic they would care, i don't why being on twitter matter
You didn't really explain it, and besides, I covered this above. The only thing important to the plot of the later Ben 10 series is the introduction to the Multiverse as part of said plot.

How specifically big it is, whether infinite or just having a **** ton of universes, matters extremely little to the storyline.
excuse me? "the ONLY answer"? what makes this an answer and the others not? how is "yes/no" vague?
Lets use common sense here please? A brief answer is an answer that is unelaborated on. Under-explained. The more details and thought that gets put into an answer, the more clarified that answer becomes.

Explain to me how a quick yes/no answer is not vague.
if a question is simple, than then would only need a simple answer, if someone asks "are you a human being?" would say "yes/no" or would you explain why you are a human? same logic here, you have to explain this or else your point just doesn't make sense
....This is a terrible comparison. Asking about what species you belong to and asking if there are infinite universes in existence is not the same thing.
opposite? it coroborates, he says that the ben 10 multiverse would have as much as our own multiverse, to which he then explains what he means by that and talks about the different interpretations irl,
Which does the opposite of an actual direct answer. If he legit thought there were infinite universes, without a shadow of a doubt in Ben 10, he wouldn't mention things about there being different interpretations of the multiverse, where one is infinite and one is not.

If he legitimately thought there were flat out universes, there wouldn't be any other interpretation besides that one.
what he says in in line with all the other answers and the show, since infinite is a posibility in real life,
One possibility. Not the only possibility.
it is true in universe and it is the vision that they use for the show as shown in the other answers, since even in ultimate alien it is made clear that there isn't just 12 universes
Yes, but then this comes down to cherry picking apart his answer to take what you want out of it.
the fact that they don't contradict each other?
it does give confirmation, for their vision about the said multiverse in the series, that along with in universe statements and other answers from him and others, confirm that the "infinite" part of this explanation is the one used
Saying different interpretations exist is the exact opposite of confirming one of them is precisely the case.
which from an outsider of time viewer would mean infinite universes, since it would be seeing all of the past, present and future, aka all the posibilities,
And what proves this?
from which are infinite, the whole reason for why ad infinitum is considered countless is because possibilities go on and stack endlessly and keep creating more more with each timeframe, with infinite time the time frame for possibilities is infinite so if someone goes out of time, aka ben 10's time stream, all the infinite possibilities that would be created in the future would already be there
Again, what proves this? The only statement given is "infinite timestream", nothing proves all of these possibilities are all existing at the same time.
read above
See above.
for a present perspective there really isn't infinite timelines, they just keep being created with each possibility, but from an out of time perspective, and with time confirmed to be infinite, there would be infinite timelines since all possibilities would already exist from this perspective, similar to dragon ball xenoverse
Paradox doesn't go off of a "present perspective" however, he is clearly aware of and has a deep understanding of space-time and how parallel worlds work.
yes you do, the question is of yes or no, there isn't anything else they could answer instead of "yes/no"
There is? Thinking about infinite timelines is not a simple question.

And I don't have to explain how yes/no are weak answers when we are a site that requires well explained evidence and context. A "yes" / "no" answer doesn't do that.

Greenshifter

Prove it's a retcon.
A new statement about the size of the dimensions happens in a LATER sequel series. Pretty clearly retconning what the previous series says about it.
Also Ben made the statement about "wow this pocket dimension is big" in AF, as if he never went to the Null Void before, so he's literally being an idiot in that instance.
Yes, but Ben isn't the one in Alien Force that calls it a Pocket Dimension when explaining it's background, it was another character. But Ben being a reliable character on the matter of dimensional size is not exactly strong evidence either way.

On that note, that brings me to the next thing.
And yes pocket dimensions can be infinite in size, it's a pocket dimension because it's only a part of the universe instead of the whole thing.

A pocket dimension being an endless universe literally goes against the very meaning of it being called a pocket dimension in the first place. When has a pocket dimension ever been considered infinite?

But more importantly, if that's the evidence for the Null Void being considered endless, then I don't agree with that evidence being legit upon looking at it. While Max has been in the Null Void a lot of times during his days as a plumber, simply traveling around in a dimension that looks like it's endless from your point of view, and coming to the conclusion that there's no end to it, is weak reasoning to deduce that there's no limit to the dimensions size when the dimension could simply either continue to expand beyond what is able to be seen, or is so big that Max can't cover all of it when inside the Null Void. There are other and very much plausible explanations besides automatically assuming the dimension is endless in scope.

Max doesn't have cosmic awareness. How do we know that Max just simply didn't get to cover the entirety of the dimension because it's simply too big for him to do that?

On top of that, the dimension being directly called a pocket space in-universe is a hammer against this idea that it's an endless dimension. For you to continue proclaiming it still is an endless dimension, you have to use bigger assumptions about arguing pocket spaces being able to be endless, whereas the simpler and more conservative assumption, that doesn't take this big of a leap in logic, is that it simply isn't considered endless. Not without more evidence helping to prove this case.

@Greenshifter if there is other evidence for an endless pocket dimension besides this statement, direct me to it please.
 
Regarding Holiday's Intelligence or Generator Rex's Scientist as a Whole

Apparently the nanite stuff in Generator Rex is built by the Earth Scientists itself, making them supergenius in nanotechnology Right ?. This information is itself incomplete. Apparently alot of people here including moderators and regular members are lacking knowledge on intelligent feats of generator rex.

Stating information is irrelevant to the discussion at hand =/= us lacking knowledge on intelligence feats. We aren't saying the characters are not smart. We are saying these feats do not matter in regards to what is being talked about here.

I don't know why people keeping having this strange idea of thinking listing random intelligence feats means anything they say can be credible

But sure, ill play along again.
Some of those Nanites are capable controlling the very fabric of the universe ,energy,gravity ,Time-space, elemental ,all the things which makes a universe run. Notice something ?,apart from nanotechnology , scientists who built these nanites should also have knowledge regarding space-time since to make something the creator should have knowledge about the thing. Obviously Holiday also knows about this.
Number of issues

First of all, unless im mistaking the episode this was said in, this information on the Meta-Nanites was made in the series finale of Generator Rex after Rex had obtained and weaponized all 5 of them. Which obviously happens after the Crossover event. So even if pushing this very high, Holiday at the time of the crossover did not possess this knowledge on what the Meta-Nanites could do.

Second of all, the Nanites controlling the fabric of the universe was not something the members of the Nanite project originally knew about, they discovered this well after creating nanites. They didn't create the Dominion Code, they discovered it.

And third, im going to ask this one more time. What does knowing about something that manipulates the fabric of the universe have anything to do with understanding the existence of parallel universes? These are 2 different things and they literally having no relevance to each other.
In the Crossover we have Rex making fun of Ben for being from a different dimension but he himself was taken to different dimensions by Breach, which he later talked with Holiday.
These were pocket dimensions, not alternate universes. This also takes bigger assumption that Rex gave a bunch of details to Holiday off-screen for her to study these.

What episode(s) did this happen in by the way?
Secondly, We have Rex time travelling with the help of Holiday which itself requires deep understanding of space-time.
Also has nothing to do with understanding parallel universes. Like, at all. Knowing alternate universes exist is completely different than time traveling.
Van kleiss was himself time travelling and has the knowledge of timestream. He was also Time Travelling Through Various Eras of Time He was even to build one from the scrap and metallurgical knowledge of Roman/Medieval Era of 1500 BC .
See above.
OP points that unlike professor paradox, Holiday doesn't have deep understanding of space-time and her statements are only based on maths and calculation With all evidence provided above i would disagree with this .All the supergenius stuff they do is based off math and calculation All of this all together makes the scientists (including Holiday) supergenius and making their statements Reliable.
Everything you presented here has little to nothing to do with the subject of knowing about the existence of parallel universes. Find me intelligence related to this specifically, and you would probably have some kind of point.

But to play devils advocate even more, lets say Holiday did have at least some of this knowledge before the Crossover episode with Ben 10 happened.

This would strengthen my point on her statement being less reliable even more. Since your argument entails that Holiday had some of this knowledge before the Crossover happened, the fact at the end of the day that is indisputable is that she adamantly claimed parallel worlds were a theory. A SHAKY theory, meaning in Generator Rex, it is a theory that is on the border of being deemed hard to prove. She wouldn't have said this if that wasn't the case.

And no, her not believing Ben is not an excuse for this. If Holiday actually believed that parallel worlds were real, she wouldn't have dismissed Ben's statement all together by saying they are a shaky theory. She would've believed they existed, and just thought Ben was lying about being from one of them, rather than dismiss their existence all together as only theoretical.

If she had all this knowledge beforehand, and still didn't believe parallel universes were 100% real, then the knowledge your claiming she had wasn't enough for her to deduce they exist. Meaning, she did not have the knowledge to know for a fact they exist and believed they didn't.
 
Already responded to this. Of course someone who wants a big upgrade is going to see this as "more than enough". This is a non argument.
I find the evidence more than enough sorry? I don't care if you are convinced or not. There will be ppl who always stay denial of everything. I don't have to convince you but have to send convincing evidence and that's what I did.

Cool, and me addressing what I don't agree with is mine.
Convince then. Not me but everyone here.

? You said staff off site agree with your take. I asked you to ask them come to this thread to argue against this if that's actually the case. Pretty simple
I am talking about @Maverick_Zero_X dude. She didn't agreed with the multiverse take even in this thread. No one have to come or go
Context that is being challenged in this thread, and people who weren't present in those revisions are now questioning this or disagreeing. SWhat was accepted before does not make it immune to being challenged. Especially by people who were not present at the time.
The context is enough. Entire episode is dealing with number of timelines and maltruant threw that infinite timestream statement while talking about timelines. Supported by authors and paradox and all. So enough. You don't have to reply to me about something I am convinced but rather have to convince others that is your thread and your job. If ppl think what I've provided is not enough they can disagree with me and if think it's fine they can disagree with you. Don't try to convince me. Just give the convincing evidence and leave it to others to judge.

Yeah no. You still haven't answered the actual question. When has math ever been able to grasp the existence of parallel universes, much less infinite ones, beyond reasonable doubt?
Ask doctor holiday not me? I am not here professor sitting to read theories, all there is that answer wasn't careless or random statement but was made after research.

More as in you can't answer the question because you don't have a proper and ACTUAL counter argument against an argument that gave reasons to eviscerate her credibility on the topic of parallel worlds
Okay. If you think so.

eah, what evidence is there that proves he had the Naljians dimensions in mind?
Literally the scan you are talking about has it in the question. See yourself or just post that Duncan statement you are talking about.

Yeah, if someone gives one answer that is super elaborated with a bunch of details and then that same person gives a quick uncaring answer in another instance, the former is obviously going to be taken as a more seriously thought of answer.
The first statement of Duncan was in 2020 that he corrected later on in 2022. The second statement has shown to be same as the statement of DJW who has significantly worked in the series and is more credible than Duncan himself. Not to mention that he has corrected himself to the line of DJW shows that his statement is accurate, not that they both contradicted each other but just one author corrected himself later on. And that statement of infinite is what has been supported in the show.
And I disagree with this now as well based on the evidence I see given for this. I'll be arguing against that here too.
Smh just make your thread on it. On how many things we have to convince you just because you Disagree?? That thread has been accepted long ago and include it in the OP, ask moderators to agree with it, don't come telling around to tell me suddenly you disagree with one more thread and want to discuss it in the middle suddenly just because your argument got in danger off the bat.

You still haven't addressed the problem that these would be pocket dimensions
Pocket dimension is infinite in Ben 10 thank you very much make your thread to remove it or include it in the OP and debunk that thread in the OP, ask moderators to agree with it. Telling me you suddenly disagree because your pocket dimension arguement is not working is not the way. Suddenly bringing up different accepted things and kept disagreeing with them just so that your argument proceed is not how the debate done.

This is a thread tackling what happened in those revisions and challenging their evidences. So I don't have to make another new thread to do exactly that.
You freaking have to, I don't have strength to try to convince you over everything you kept disagreeing just so that your argument can proceed and do not stays in danger, include it in the OP,debunk that thread in the OP, ask moderators to agree with it, learn that I don't care about your DISAGREEMENTS , it was accepted by everyone including whose arguements you copy pasted in the OP
 
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A new statement about the size of the dimensions happens in a LATER sequel series. Pretty clearly retconning what the previous series says about it.
That's not how retcons work, show me the contradiction.
Yes, but Ben isn't the one in Alien Force that calls it a Pocket Dimension when explaining it's background, it was another character. But Ben being a reliable character on the matter of dimensional size is not exactly strong evidence either way.

On that note, that brings me to the next thing.
Ben called it a pocket dimension, but you're right the Null Void inhabitant also called it that.
A pocket dimension being an endless universe literally goes against the very meaning of it being called a pocket dimension in the first place. When has a pocket dimension ever been considered infinite?
Dude if an author wants to make a pocket dimension infinite in size they can, there's different meanings for pocket dimension anyways. It being smaller than another dimension would qualify for it being called a pocket dimension in comparison.
But more importantly, if that's the evidence for the Null Void being considered endless, then I don't agree with that evidence being legit upon looking at it. While Max has been in the Null Void a lot of times during his days as a plumber, simply traveling around in a dimension that looks like it's endless from your point of view, and coming to the conclusion that there's no end to it, is weak reasoning to deduce that there's no limit to the dimensions size when the dimension could simply either continue to expand beyond what is able to be seen, or is so big that Max can't cover all of it when inside the Null Void. There are other and very much plausible explanations besides automatically assuming the dimension is endless in scope.

Max doesn't have cosmic awareness. How do we know that Max just simply didn't get to cover the entirety of the dimension because it's simply too big for him to do that?
Max literally has access to Plumber databases and could have literally gotten that information from the Galvan themselves.
On top of that, the dimension being directly called a pocket space in-universe is a hammer against this idea that it's an endless dimension. For you to continue proclaiming it still is an endless dimension, you have to use bigger assumptions about arguing pocket spaces being able to be endless, whereas the simpler and more conservative assumption, that doesn't take this big of a leap in logic, is that it simply isn't considered endless. Not without more evidence helping to prove this case.
Some pocket spaces in Ben 10 being infinite is a conclusion rather than an assumption, what you're trying to do is forcing a contradiction which doesn't explain anything and thus by default is inferior to any interpretation that doesn't force a contradiction.
@Greenshifter if there is other evidence for an endless pocket dimension besides this statement, direct me to it please.
Sure
 
Convince then. Not me but everyone here.
Thankfully I have the bigger staff support who, at minimum, find this very questionable and at the most, agree to downgrade.
I am talking about @Maverick_Zero_X dude. She didn't agreed with the multiverse take even in this thread. No one have to come or go
Better relook at the first page. She said she was neutral as far as the general multiverse goes, but agrees with nuking every universe being 2-A.
The context is enough. Entire episode is dealing with number of timelines and maltruant threw that infinite timestream statement
And? Mentioning those 2 things doesnt mean they are connected without evidence.
while talking about timelines
And this I argue is unproven. If you feel otherwise, that's on you. But im going to argue against this and see what others say. Get the bigger staff support for this and then i'll be more willing to settle with it.
Supported by authors and paradox and all. So enough.
Paradox's "support" is 2-B, you have ONE in universe statement that actually mentions infinite, looping that one evidence with these author statements, which are not infallible, to make circular claims of support is not ironclad evidence.
Ask doctor holiday not me? I am not here professor sitting to read theories, all there is that answer wasn't careless or random statement but was made after research.
And research can be wrong. Don't deflect the question just because you don't have a proper answer and don't want to admit that maybe, just maybe, this line of reasoning is ridiculous and not actual evidence?
Literally the scan you are talking about has it in the question. See yourself or just post that Duncan statement you are talking about.
"Just trust me" is all im getting from this.
The first statement of Duncan was in 2020 that he corrected later on in 2022. The second statement has shown to be same as the statement of DJW who has significantly worked in the series and is more credible than Duncan himself.
Now all of a sudden one creator is more credible than another one when they both are apart of Man of Action? How convenient.
Not to mention that he has corrected himself to the line of DJW shows that his statement is accurate, not that they both contradicted each other but just one author corrected himself later on. And that statement of infinite is what has been supported in the show.
Once again, if someone early on gives an elaborated answer that has actual thought and clarified details put into it, the likelyhood of them correcting themselves with a quick one worded response later on being the case is low.

But as I said, get the bigger staff support here for this and i'll be more cooperative with this.
Smh just make your thread on it. On how many things we have to convince you just because you Disagree?? That thread has been accepted long ago and include it in the OP, ask moderators to agree with it, don't come telling around to tell me suddenly you disagree with one more thread and want to discuss it in the middle suddenly just because your argument got in danger off the bat.


Pocket dimension is infinite in Ben 10 thank you very much make your thread to remove it or include it in the OP and debunk that thread in the OP, ask moderators to agree with it. Telling me you suddenly disagree because your pocket dimension arguement is not working is not the way. Suddenly bringing up different accepted things and kept disagreeing with them just so that your argument proceed is not how the debate done.


You freaking have to, I don't have strength to try to convince you over everything you kept disagreeing just so that your argument can proceed and do not stays in danger, include it in the OP,debunk that thread in the OP, ask moderators to agree with it, learn that I don't care about your DISAGREEMENTS , it was accepted by everyone including whose arguements you copy pasted in the OP

I don't care. Stop forcing a derailment and saying things are off topic just because something was already accepted, which isnt how things work here on this site. Anything can be challenged and put into question at any time I and others want. Simple as that.

I was not here when all of this was decided on, and neither were some of the people in this thread. I don't have to abide by what was accepted already. If I find things problematic and want to make a thread challenging what got accepted, I can and im doing so now.

This thread is made to put what got accepted into question. Guess what? This evidence of endless sized pocket dimensions falls under that, and im seeing said evidence in this thread for the first time. So no, I don't need to make a whole other new thread that does the exact same as this one. This is on topic and will be done here.
 
Thankfully I have the bigger staff support who, at minimum, find this very questionable and at the most, agree to downgrade.
That's because you said in the OP that there is no evidence. While I shown entire freaking context to it. There was strawman in the OP who rather than debunking my thread invalidated it and those who read thought it's true is not a support it's tricking PPL.

And this I argue is unproven. If you feel otherwise, that's on you. But im going to argue against this and see what others say. Get the bigger staff support for this and then i'll be more willing to settle with it.
I am settle, we both have 1 on 1 staff support on it. @Maverick_Zero_X is neutral, mind you.

I don't care. Stop forcing a derailment and saying things are off topic
Man. How hard it is for you to make a proper crt to include all things you want to argue? How many staff or ppl here agrees with your point of nullvoid not being infinite in size based of my crt? None. It's what happens when you don't link relevant things in the OP and keep arguing about it endlessly. That's derailment. Me suggesting you to include relevant things in the OP or if it has gone far enough to do that then make a another crt is not.

I am not replying to anything else as they are just same with "I don't find it convincing", "I don't agree with it", "I find it unreliable" whatsover. I don't care about excuses.
 
That's not how retcons work,
That is exactly how it works. What happens later > what happens before.
show me the contradiction.
It's already linked in the OP.
Dude if an author wants to make a pocket dimension infinite in size they can, there's different meanings for pocket dimension anyways.
And writers can't do whatever they want without consequences. If a writer incorrectly displays something in their series and makes a mistake, that is their own fault.

What the series shows > what the writers intention is

And no, not really? A POCKET dimension is exactly what the term implies, not being a real universe but an unquantifiable sized space.
Max literally has access to Plumber databases and could have literally gotten that information from the Galvan themselves.
And this is exactly the crux of the problem here with this. "Could have", "possibly", "might have"

Theres nothing solidly proving this is factual. This is taking one possible interpretation, the highest interpretation, and passing this off as 100% definitive.

We don't take evidence that isn't solid for such extraordinary claims.
Some pocket spaces in Ben 10 being infinite is a conclusion rather than an assumption, what you're trying to do is forcing a contradiction which doesn't explain anything and thus by default is inferior to any interpretation that doesn't force a contradiction.
No, what im doing is that im looking at the interpretation used and offering possible interpretations that take less leaps in logic to conclude. What we take here is the lowest assumption first until something proves the higher interpretation.

Your taking the highest interpretation and coming to that conclusion all on your own.
Uh, where is this from?
 
That's because you said in the OP that there is no evidence. While I shown entire freaking context to it.
An assumption based off evidence for specific dimensions, where THAT evidence is in hot water as well, is not evidence for everything else.

But sure. I will reask @Everything12 and @Maverick_Zero_X to relook at everything said so far and ask where they stand.
There was strawman in the OP who rather than debunking my thread invalidated it and those who read thought it's true is not a support it's tricking PPL.
And claiming evidence is insufficient is also a counter argument, not a strawman.
I am settle, we both have 1 on 1 staff support on it. @Maverick_Zero_X is neutral, mind you.
No, @Maverick_Zero_X again is neutral about the Multiverse being 2-A in general. She outright said she agrees to downgrade every universe from being a 2-A structure.

A story editor of Omniverse (Matt Wayne) stated that nothing is definitive unless it’s acknowledged in the show.

In this instance I’m inclined to agree with following our site rules that state leading “Word of God” social media statements should be disregarded.

That aside, I definitely agree with axing individual universes being 2-A structures. “There is no reason to think they aren't" certainly isn’t sufficient evidence for such an extraordinary claim.

I’m neutral on the infinite Time Stream statement atm. I suppose that could be consistent with the statement that alternate timelines branch off "Ad infinitum.”

Man. How hard it is for you to make a proper crt to include all things you want to argue?
A CRT doesn't have to include every argument before posting it. If unexpected stuff they were unaware about comes in the thread, they can absolutely argue against it.

And this "evidence" for the Null Void is exactly that.
How many staff or ppl here agrees with your point of nullvoid not being infinite in size based of my crt? None.
Because as I just said, this was something I was not aware about when writing this up and is something im recently just now seeing.

I will ask them to look at this evidence as well.
 
That is exactly how it works. What happens later > what happens before.
If there is a contradiction yes.
It's already linked in the OP.
Your headcanon of how a pocket dimension can't be infinite you mean?
And writers can't do whatever they want without consequences. If a writer incorrectly displays something in their series and makes a mistake, that is their own fault.

What the series shows > what the writers intention is

And no, not really? A POCKET dimension is exactly what the term implies, not being a real universe but an unquantifiable sized space.
Depends on what your definition of pocket dimension is, it being small in comparison to the main universe would make the usage of the term correct. Another way it can be used is to signify that it can be easily accessed by the characters, such as with a Null Void Projector in this instance.
No, what im doing is that im looking at the interpretation used and offering possible interpretations that take less leaps in logic to conclude. What we take here is the lowest assumption first until something proves the higher interpretation.

Your taking the highest interpretation and coming to that conclusion all on your own.
"What the knowledgeable character says isn't actually true because I think pocket dimensions can't be infinite" is a pretty big leap in logic. Opposed to "Knowledgeable character says that a pocket dimension is infinite, so it is" which seems like a rather small "leap in logic".
Uh, where is this from?
Plumbers Helpers novel.
 
assumption
STOP STRAWMANING, I am warning you again. A generalization based of context and sagan standard is not assumption. It's very basic thing that literally All verses do. The all known dimensions from even that particular statement of infinite dimensions are "in-universe" dimension and so there is a context to the statement that they're talking about "in-universe" dimension. You cannot break a single statement of infinite dimension and say that some are referring to "axiomatic dimensions", some are referring to "universes", some are referring to "in-universe dimensions", some are referring to "planets", there is context. So we have the result.

The fact that they have no way to travel to another universe and if universe includes only handful of "in- universe" dimensions then it doesn't makes sense for doctor holiday to say that there are infinite dimensions so you can't find Ben's dimension. It's illogical. Why they'll care about universes when they can't even travel to it.

Entire movie has concerned itself with only in-universe dimensions and has only dealing with it, why we will quote off single statement out of context of the entire crossover for no reason?

OP counter argument: universes and Dimensions has been shown to be used interchangeably in the other episodes that has nothing to do with the crossover and so all statements about dimensions, regardless if they have context to it, regardless that dimensions hasn't been shown to used interchangeably in the crossover, cannot be used anymore. This is most W arguement I have ever heard on vs battle.
 
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If there is a contradiction yes.
And it being directly called a pocket dimension is one.
Your headcanon of how a pocket dimension can't be infinite you mean?
Something that is extremely common as such is not headcanon, and common sense would tell you the first interpretation of pocket space is going to be it's not an actual universe. Much less an endless one.

That and our site even not considering a pocket dimension as anything but unquantifiable.
Depends on what your definition of pocket dimension is, it being small in comparison to the main universe would make the usage of the term correct.
And and endless dimension is somehow "smaller" than the universe....how?
Another way it can be used is to signify that it can be easily accessed by the characters, such as with a Null Void Projector in this instance.
You would then have to prove "pocket dimension" is a in-universe term for a space that's easily accessible to Ben 10 characters for this to be the case. Which is another added assumption.
"What the knowledgeable character says isn't actually true because I think pocket dimensions can't be infinite" is a pretty big leap in logic.
And taking what the character says to the absolute biggest extent, that this space is endless in scope, is a bigger leap in logic. The leap that doesn't take the most mental gymnastics to conclude is what gets taken first as that doesn't require the most evidence.

It doesn't matter if the character is knowledgeable or not, you need to prove the highest interpretation is what's the case. Not assume it.

A negative claim is not a bigger leap in logic than a positive claim.
Plumbers Helpers novel.
Im going to assume this is canon then and ask this.

Wouldn't this be tertary canon evidence?
 
Stating information is irrelevant to the discussion at hand =/= us lacking knowledge on intelligence feats. We aren't saying the characters are not smart. We are saying these feats do not matter in regards to what is being talked about here.
I specifically mentioned those intelligence feats which are relevant to the discussion. Their knowledge regarding space-time ,timestream ,time travel ,existence of parallel dimensions.
I don't know why people keeping having this strange idea of thinking listing random intelligence feats means anything they say can be credible
Just read it properly. I haven't listed any of their RANDOM intelligence feats. All on topic.
First of all, unless im mistaking the episode this was said in, this information on the Meta-Nanites was made in the series finale of Generator Rex after Rex had obtained and weaponized all 5 of them. Which obviously happens after the Crossover event. So even if pushing this very high, Holiday at the time of the crossover did not possess this knowledge on what the Meta-Nanites could do.
She scales to the intelligence of the scientists who made the meta-nanites who could alter space-time. Mind it , having knowledge regarding space-time itself makes the statements of character with regards to cosmology reliable. Your point of it being a series finale is moot. Meta nanites were created long before the nanite event born by scientists which includes caeser salzar. She knew it all along.
Second of all, the Nanites controlling the fabric of the universe was not something the members of the Nanite project originally knew about, they discovered this well after creating nanites. They didn't create the Dominion Code, they discovered it.
They Specifically Created the Meta Nanite which could do all those universal altering stuff including space-time. Without having the knowledge of the stuff ,its not possible to create such stuff. My point is that those scientists have the knowledge of space-time good enough for their statements to be reliable. One anti-feat means nothing to it, when the overall narrative says the opposite.
And third, im going to ask this one more time. What does knowing about something that manipulates the fabric of the universe have anything to do with understanding the existence of parallel universes? These are 2 different things and they literally having no
I specifically bolded the space-time stuff. Their knowledge of space-time is good enough for them to create something which can alter it. That includes existence of parallel worlds. This in itself makes their statement with regards to cosmology reliable.
This also takes bigger assumption that Rex gave a bunch of details to Holiday off-screen for her to study these.
Boi , in the scan itself they were shown talking to each other on call. There is no assumption
Also has nothing to do with understanding parallel universes. Like, at all. Knowing alternate universes exist is completely different than time traveling.
They have knowledge about the timestream itself, which automatically includes parallel worlds.
Everything you presented here has little to nothing to do with the subject of knowing about the existence of parallel universes. Find me intelligence related to this specifically, and you would probably have some kind of point.
Its not necessary for them to show something before we can consider their statements reliable. As i say ,they have good enough knowledge about the timestream (which includes parallel worlds) ,space-time for their statements to be considered reliable.
This would strengthen my point on her statement being less reliable even more. Since your argument entails that Holiday had some of this knowledge before the Crossover happened, the fact at the end of the day that is indisputable is that she adamantly claimed parallel worlds were a theory. A SHAKY theory, meaning in Generator Rex, it is a theory that is on the border of being deemed hard to prove. She wouldn't have said this if that wasn't the case.
You know what. Parallel worlds are those universes which COMPLETELY MIRRORS ours. This in itself is different for the context of Ben 10. They don't mirror each other 100% same and the history in itself is slightly different. She referring to that SHAKY theory could mean to various theories proposed regarding it. Her making a statement regarding cosmology is extremely different. They have the knowledge of space-time good enough. You can't refute her statements just because its hard for them to prove, Caeser re-opened the portal for Ben and they even went to ben's dimension in Hero Times 2 by tracking ultimatrix's signal.
If she had all this knowledge beforehand, and still didn't believe parallel universes were 100% real, then the knowledge your claiming she had wasn't enough for her to deduce they exist. Meaning, she did not have the knowledge to know for a fact they exist and believed they didn't.
Despite saying in the crossover, it would not be possible for Rex and Ben to meet again , they eventually did that in the hero times two comic. Its not that tough for Scientists like Holiday to deduce or figure out something they first questioned.
.
 
This is reverse burden of proof. The positive claim here is what needs to be proven, I don't need to prove a negative. You are the one claiming these answers are legitimate, serious answers. You are the one that has to first prove they are making serious answers to begin with.
this is the basic assumption, their show is about this, one of the writers said that he considers twitter as a valid option to get answers about the said show, they caring requires less assumptions than they not caring, hence we use it, can you give any reason whatsoever as for why they wouldn't care? like massive plot points resolve around this, even for entire seasons in omniverse, they have to care to write the story in the first place

Seriously? Asking about the size of a given verse is literally a battleboarding question to ask what tier said verse would be. If you ask someone if a verse has millions of dimensions, you're asking them if the verse is Multiversal. Or 2-B in our sites case of terms.
this is not true, ben 10 has plot points and even entire seasons revolving around the multiverse and its different realities, to ask about the size of it is to ask about the series lore and world building, battleboarding does not need to be relevant for the person to ask about this and you saying that it is is an non provable assumption

If you ask if the verse contains infinite universes, you're asking if the verse is a 2-A one.
read above

None of these super specific details are ones authors generally care about when their focus is to write their stories out. And the number of dimensions is not important to Ben 10 lore. The only thing about the narrative that is a plot point is the verse introducing Multiversal shenanigan's to the franchise, the specific number of universes is an unimportant detail.
you are ignoring my point, in this case they HAVE to care to write the story, since their STORY revolves around this subject, it is incredibly for the ben 10 series, with even entire sagas of the shown resolving around it, to say that they don't care about it is to ignore the massive story points of the shown, the number of universes IS important when you are telling an multiversal story, how many characters can you introduce? with how many universes? with something is threatening the said said universes how to represent it? see? it is important and i have no idea why would you that it isn't

As I said above, once again, you are reversing the burden of proof. The positive is what needs evidence first, not a negative.
i already did that, this is why i am asking for you to give your proof of otherwise, i even gave the duncan example in the very sentence you are answering

You cannot assume a writer has these details in mind when giving these answers out. Do you seriously think Duncan, Derrick or any of these writers for Ben 10 have "how many timelines did we write into the series?' when being asked these specific questions of cosmology size and giving quick, brief answers back? You need to be the one to prove this.
considering that this resolves around massive plots of the show, yes, yes i think so, and gave me no reason to think otherwise outside of your own disbelief, which is not an argument to begin with

Claiming they are uncaring is not a negative. Claiming they are serious answers is the positive.
how can one not be a negative but the other is also a positive? are they both positives? they caring about something that is a very important part of the lore of the series requires less assumptions than they not caring, just because reasons, you just keep saying that they wouldn't care without giving any reason as to why, therefore it is a positive that you need to back up with evidence, since authors caring about their world building is a basic logical assumption
regardless i already gave reason as to why they do care in the first place

Pretty simple to understand. An interview is an actual proper discussion between the writer and reporter/interviewer who, in this discussion, has the permission to ask the writer questions. So asking questions to the creator is fair game here as it's their job to in an interview.

But this is besides the point.
......everyone is allowed to ask questions to the writers, or creators, or animators and whatever else, they are humans after all, if people were not allowed to ask questions we wouldn't be having this debate in the first place

It's less valid because fans are the ones presenting these random out of nowhere topics to the writer's social media, topics they more than likely do not care about or have in mind for their series.
already explained why they would care in the first place, so read above

If the writers came to the conclusion on their own without being influenced by those questions, that would be one thing. But that isn't the case.
and you assume that they were because?

Like I pointed out, how do we know these answers were seriously made? How do we know they had these details of "number of timelines in the multiverse" in mind when giving answers back? We don't know that for sure, and at the end of the day, the claim that takes less assumptions is taken over what takes more assumptions.
this is why we have to use assumption that they care and are being serious, duncan said as much, massive plot points of the series revolves around this subject, the rake that they care has almost no assumptions at all

You didn't really explain it, and besides, I covered this above. The only thing important to the plot of the later Ben 10 series is the introduction to the Multiverse as part of said plot.
which includes how is it formed, its size, its structure etc. again i don't see your point

How specifically big it is, whether infinite or just having a **** ton of universes, matters extremely little to the storyline.
if you personally believe in this sure, but without a given reason as to why you can't use this as an argument

Lets use common sense here please? A brief answer is an answer that is unelaborated on. Under-explained. The more details and thought that gets put into an answer, the more clarified that answer becomes.

Explain to me how a quick yes/no answer is not vague.
the question is very simple structuraly, i don't see how could it be elabored in the question at hand since the question is one of "yes or no" simple questions don't require long answers, idk what you expected them to answer, see my example again bellow

....This is a terrible comparison. Asking about what species you belong to and asking if there are infinite universes in existence is not the same thing.
the question itself is not important, but the structure of it, please answer, would you simply say "yes/no" or would exaplain why you aren't or are a human in the example? if you still don't get it, here is another example, if someone asked "do you have hair?" would you answer "yes/no" or would you explain why? note that the subject of the question is not important, but only the structure of it

Which does the opposite of an actual direct answer. If he legit thought there were infinite universes, without a shadow of a doubt in Ben 10, he wouldn't mention things about there being different interpretations of the multiverse, where one is infinite and one is not.
he was not talking about the series in that part, but on the interpretations of physics on the matter irl, later on when asked about series itself he confirmed that the interpretation used is the infinite one

If he legitimately thought there were flat out universes, there wouldn't be any other interpretation besides that one.
in the series itself it doesn't, plus do you have the original tweet? i am pretty sure that the question was not about universes in that context

One possibility. Not the only possibility.
i don't see how this is relevant to my argument

Yes, but then this comes down to cherry picking apart his answer to take what you want out of it.
not really, he was talking about how many different interpretations there is in real life, he never said that this was the case in ben 10, he only said that it would have as many as the irl multiverse, giving a valid interpretation of infinite, which is confirmed to be the one used when he was asked again later on, so we would use the infinite part since that is what it is used

Saying different interpretations exist is the exact opposite of confirming one of them is precisely the case.
he said that different exist in real life, not in the show

And what proves this?
basic logic? the only reason ad infinitum is not considered infinite is because of time, because the possibilities need time to occur, because they are constantly created along a time period, with infinite time, there is infinite possibilities yet to occur, but if you are outside of time, aka the realm of the time stream in ben 10, you would see past present and future all at once, aka all the possibilities that could occur aka the infinite realities that would be created in the future would already exist by your perspective

Again, what proves this? The only statement given is "infinite timestream", nothing proves all of these possibilities are all existing at the same time.
read above

See above.
see above

Paradox doesn't go off of a "present perspective" however, he is clearly aware of and has a deep understanding of space-time and how parallel worlds work.
who said anything about paradox? i am talking about the time stream, when paradox is explaining the concept of the multiverse to ben and co, he is explaining in a "present perspective" since in that "moment" there really is finite universes, but when accounting all of time and the time stream, it is infinite in its totality, more explanations above

There is? Thinking about infinite timelines is not a simple question.
show me what they could have said, if the answer is "yes" then there is no need to say anything but "yes", the question is simple in structure, therefore you need only a simple structured answer, if you think otherwise show an example of how could they have answered in this case
And I don't have to explain how yes/no are weak answers when we are a site that requires well explained evidence and context. A "yes" / "no" answer doesn't do that.
they are weak because? the answers are part of the explanation, taking them alone without the other evidence is dishonest since they are a complement
 
I think both parties should chill out a bit, the thread is going back and forth, I think it is time to call in for evaluation before the thread gets any larger
The point is that OP first of all didn't put my arguements in the thread and invalidated them by saying there is nothing. It's wrong and all. OP kept strawmaning a simple generalization that is very basic to continously saying it's baseless assumption. Despite he just said recently in the previous page that either all the infinite dimensions are "in-universe" pocket dimension or they aren't and the moment he found out pocket dimensions has been accepted to be infinite in size he goes back and repeated assumption thing and even start being denial towards infinite pocket dimension, regardless I said include it in the OP debunk it and ask staff if they accept it but no, he want to argue over it endlessly with no conclusion? He is just being denial at all points regarding Universe is 2A.
 
I think both parties should chill out a bit, the thread is going back and forth, I think it is time to call in for evaluation before the thread gets any larger
Yeah and we already have another B10 thread happening, I mean this thread should've happened right after the one that came before it.
 
STOP STRAWMANING, I am warning you again. A generalization based of context and sagan standard is not assumption.
Your "context" for this was given for ONE or few dimensions that had evidence and then assuming it for the rest of them.
It's very basic thing that literally All verses do.
None of the verses I know of do this very thing at all. What they use have actual evidence supplied for them being the case. If there's any series here you know that does the same as this, point them out.
The all known dimensions from even that particular statement of infinite dimensions are "in-universe" dimension and so there is a context that they're talking about "in-universe" dimension. So we have the result.
And that particular statement of infinite dimensions is being called into question at the same time as the rest, and even IF this is remotely a legitimate statement

Your argument still doesn't address the actual fact that

1.) The Dimensional Disruptor not allowing Rex and the others to go to different worlds can easily be a matter of range, only linking to specifically to the Null Void.

2.) That "in-universe" dimensions are just a fancified way of calling them all pocket dimensions. If your saying Rex's dimension, Ledgerdomain, Dagons 99 dimensions and the rest are the same type of dimension because of Holiday's statement and the disruptor, you are saying these are all pocket dimensions.

And by admitting THAT, you bring the next problem, that you cant give a tier for housing pocket dimensions.

The fact that they have no way to travel to another universe and if universe includes only handful of "in- universe" dimensions then it doesn't makes sense for doctor holiday to say that there are infinite dimensions so you can't find Ben's dimension. It's illogical. Why they'll care about universes when they can't even travel to it.
See above. Either the Dimensional Disruptor doesn't have the range, or all these dimensions being considered the same as each other makes them pocket dimensions only.

this is the basic assumption, their show is about this, one of the writers said that he considers twitter as a valid option to get answers about the said show,
And yet another writer said only what's acknowledged in the show is to be taken as valid.

This is not the basic assumption, and the rule itself banning general cases pretty much tells you we don't treat it as that either.
they caring requires less assumptions than they not caring, hence we use it, can you give any reason whatsoever as for why they wouldn't care?
Because details like the specific size of a multiverse is not something important for the storyline or lore of their series? A Multiverse by definition is just a collection of universes, no matter what the size of it is. As long as the concept is introduced into the story like they intended it to be is done, that already fulfills the purpose they wanted.

It literally doesn't matter at all if the multiverse, from the writers perspectives, is infinite or not. It doesn't disallow them from writing their series to include multiversal concepts into the storyline, so we have no reason to believe they would have any care about a super specific detail like that.

Whats important for their lore in later installations is including a Multiverse. How big it specifically is doesn't prevent them from doing that. Arguing that microscopic details like this is integral to the story is borderline nitpicking.
like massive plot points resolve around this, even for entire seasons in omniverse, they have to care to write the story in the first place

this is not true, ben 10 has plot points and even entire seasons revolving around the multiverse and its different realities, to ask about the size of it is to ask about the series lore and world building, battleboarding does not need to be relevant for the person to ask about this and you saying that it is is an non provable assumption

read above

you are ignoring my point, in this case they HAVE to care to write the story, since their STORY revolves around this subject, it is incredibly for the ben 10 series, with even entire sagas of the shown resolving around it, to say that they don't care about it is to ignore the massive story points of the shown, the number of universes IS important when you are telling an multiversal story, how many characters can you introduce? with how many universes? with something is threatening the said said universes how to represent it? see? it is important and i have no idea why would you that it isn't

i already did that, this is why i am asking for you to give your proof of otherwise, i even gave the duncan example in the very sentence you are answering

considering that this resolves around massive plots of the show, yes, yes i think so, and gave me no reason to think otherwise outside of your own disbelief, which is not an argument to begin with

See above for pretty much all of this.

how can one not be a negative but the other is also a positive? are they both positives? they caring about something that is a very important part of the lore of the series requires less assumptions than they not caring
Mine is the negative because its simplier and more reasonable to believe these details are not important in their eyes when most writers don't care as long as they get their stories written to their intention, which is the number 1 priority for them.

Yours is the positive because your claiming a small, otherwise unimportant and specific detail, that changes nothing about their writing process and doesn't prevent them from writing their show the way they intended, is still an important detail to have in mind when answering these questions.

At this point, agree to disagree and see where staff and the majority stands on this as this is getting circular.
 
And it being directly called a pocket dimension is one.
Nope
That and our site even not considering a pocket dimension as anything but unquantifiable.
Except when their size is quantified, of course.
And and endless dimension is somehow "smaller" than the universe....how?
It being a smaller space-time (4D) than the universe.
You would then have to prove "pocket dimension" is a in-universe term for a space that's easily accessible to Ben 10 characters for this to be the case. Which is another added assumption.
One of the definitions of pocket dimension in fiction is this though, so no we just look at which definition is most consistent with what we've been given. So if it is that definition and it prevents a contradiction from happening, then we use it.
And taking what the character says to the absolute biggest extent, that this space is endless in scope, is a bigger leap in logic. The leap that doesn't take the most mental gymnastics to conclude is what gets taken first as that doesn't require the most evidence.

It doesn't matter if the character is knowledgeable or not, you need to prove the highest interpretation is what's the case. Not assume it.
If you claim hyperbole on something then burden of proof is on you that the character is actually hyperboling as it is a positive claim and since you have to assume Max is hyperboling, you end up with the most mental gymnastics.
A negative claim is not a bigger leap in logic than a positive claim.
It was more-so that it was based on your notion that infinite pocket dimensions don't exist when you can't actually limit a work of fiction like that.
Im going to assume this is canon then and ask this.

Wouldn't this be tertary canon evidence?
Why not secondary?
 
1.) The Dimensional Disruptor not allowing Rex and the others to go to different worlds can easily be a matter of range, only linking to specifically to the Null Void.
Holiday confirmed they can travel to infinite dimensions, sorry and as that device is only capable of linking in-universe dimensions. We know where it ends.

. If your saying Rex's dimension, Ledgerdomain, Dagons 99 dimensions and the rest are the same type of dimension because of Holiday's statement and the disruptor, you are saying these are all pocket dimensions.
I am saying all of them are parallel world's, it's given and one of those worlds is nullvoid, a pocket dimension that exist inside the universe which is a kind of universe in its own, I am saying again, Dimensions can have differences in one way or another just like collection of planets can have differences but we have to see what is common in among all known planets, is it that there is "collection of world's" and all known world's are planets then yes, its a collection of planets and find a freaking context my friend in the entire crossover where the word "dimension" has been used interchangeably? and Dagon's dimension has nothing to do with it.

See above. Either the Dimensional Disruptor doesn't have the range, or all these dimensions being considered the same as each other makes them pocket dimensions only.
See above, it can connect infinite dimensions.
 
Your "context" for this was given for ONE or few dimensions that had evidence and then assuming it for the rest of them.

None of the verses I know of do this very thing at all. What they use have actual evidence supplied for them being the case. If there's any series here you know that does the same as this, point them out.

And that particular statement of infinite dimensions is being called into question at the same time as the rest, and even IF this is remotely a legitimate statement

Your argument still doesn't address the actual fact that

1.) The Dimensional Disruptor not allowing Rex and the others to go to different worlds can easily be a matter of range, only linking to specifically to the Null Void.

2.) That "in-universe" dimensions are just a fancified way of calling them all pocket dimensions. If your saying Rex's dimension, Ledgerdomain, Dagons 99 dimensions and the rest are the same type of dimension because of Holiday's statement and the disruptor, you are saying these are all pocket dimensions.

And by admitting THAT, you bring the next problem, that you cant give a tier for housing pocket dimensions.


See above. Either the Dimensional Disruptor doesn't have the range, or all these dimensions being considered the same as each other makes them pocket dimensions only.


And yet another writer said only what's acknowledged in the show is to be taken as valid.

This is not the basic assumption, and the rule itself banning general cases pretty much tells you we don't treat it as that either.

Because details like the specific size of a multiverse is not something important for the storyline or lore of their series? A Multiverse by definition is just a collection of universes, no matter what the size of it is. As long as the concept is introduced into the story like they intended it to be is done, that already fulfills the purpose they wanted.

It literally doesn't matter at all if the multiverse, from the writers perspectives, is infinite or not. It doesn't disallow them from writing their series to include multiversal concepts into the storyline, so we have no reason to believe they would have any care about a super specific detail like that.

Whats important for their lore in later installations is including a Multiverse. How big it specifically is doesn't prevent them from doing that. Arguing that microscopic details like this is integral to the story is borderline nitpicking.












See above for pretty much all of this.


Mine is the negative because its simplier and more reasonable to believe these details are not important in their eyes when most writers don't care as long as they get their stories written to their intention, which is the number 1 priority for them.

Yours is the positive because your claiming a small, otherwise unimportant and specific detail, that changes nothing about their writing process and doesn't prevent them from writing their show the way they intended, is still an important detail to have in mind when answering these questions.

At this point, agree to disagree and see where staff and the majority stands on this as this is getting circular.
ok agree to disagree then and waiting for evaluation
 
I specifically mentioned those intelligence feats which are relevant to the discussion. Their knowledge regarding space-time ,timestream ,time travel ,existence of parallel dimensions.
What does knowing about something that can mess with a single universe's space-time have anything to do with understanding how space-time works on a Multiversal scale?

Answer this please.
Just read it properly. I haven't listed any of their RANDOM intelligence feats. All on topic.
See above.
She scales to the intelligence of the scientists who made the meta-nanites who could alter space-time. Mind it , having knowledge regarding space-time itself makes the statements of character with regards to cosmology reliable. Your point of it being a series finale is moot. Meta nanites were created long before the nanite event born by scientists which includes caeser salzar. She knew it all along.
And none of those scientists knew what the Meta-nanites could do, again they did not possess that knowledge beforehand, they discovered it AFTER they made nanites. And Holiday was not at all involved with the original Nanite project, nor was she involved in creating the Meta-Nanites.

And see above yet again please.
They Specifically Created the Meta Nanite which could do all those universal altering stuff including space-time. Without having the knowledge of the stuff ,its not possible to create such stuff. My point is that those scientists have the knowledge of space-time good enough for their statements to be reliable. One anti-feat means nothing to it, when the overall narrative says the opposite.
This is absolute headcanon and completely ridiculous. You absolutely can create something with capabilities you didn't know prior about. Literally what?

Your headcanon goes completely against what the series even entails. The members of the Nanite project DISCOVERED the Dominion code and what it was capable of WELL after they invented nanites, they weren't aware of this in the first place.

This isn't just an anti-feat, it's a literal plot point that they didn't know about the code.
I specifically bolded the space-time stuff. Their knowledge of space-time is good enough for them to create something which can alter it.
See above.
That includes existence of parallel worlds. This in itself makes their statement with regards to cosmology reliable.
A universes space time being altered =/= understading space-time across a Multiversal scale.
They have knowledge about the timestream itself, which automatically includes parallel worlds.
And that said knowledge only allowed them to time travel.

Time traveling is not understanding parallel worlds exist, your connecting 2 things that have nothing to do with each other.
Its not necessary for them to show something before we can consider their statements reliable.
.........Im not even going to entertain this nonsensical point.
As i say ,they have good enough knowledge about the timestream (which includes parallel worlds)
And as I said, parallel worlds being included had nothing to do with them needing to time travel, they are unrelated things. Time traveling is not traveling to a parallel universe.
You know what. Parallel worlds are those universes which COMPLETELY MIRRORS ours.
You just admitted you don't know what a parallel universe is. A parallel world doesn't need to be exactly the same? Differences between parallel worlds exist all the time, this is basic Many Worlds Interpretation.
This in itself is different for the context of Ben 10. They don't mirror each other 100% same and the history in itself is slightly different.
Which is what the Many Worlds Interpretation is.
She referring to that SHAKY theory could mean to various theories proposed regarding it. Her making a statement regarding cosmology is extremely different. They have the knowledge of space-time good enough. You can't refute her statements just because its hard for them to prove
I absolutely can. The character herself gutted her own credibility when denying the existence of a parallel universe, even with all of this so called "relevant" knowledge you mentioned that somehow lets her understand it. And use common sense. If it's hard for the theory to be proven by their point of view, that means they don't believe in the existence of parallel worlds being a fact.

Caeser re-opened the portal for Ben
A feat fro Caesar. Not Holiday.
and they even went to ben's dimension in Hero Times 2 by tracking ultimatrix's signal.
Okay and? We know they were wrong in the first place as parallel worlds obviously exist despite Holiday saying its a shaky theory.

The point is that her point of view is not credible BECAUSE she said that. Her word cant be trusted on this subject for doubting their existence.
Despite saying in the crossover, it would not be possible for Rex and Ben to meet again , they eventually did that in the hero times two comic. Its not that tough for Scientists like Holiday to deduce or figure out something they first questioned.
And that doesn't mean that what they say with confidence later on is true.
Great counter argument, truly.
Except when their size is quantified, of course.
Then they wouldn't be considered a pocket dimension in the first place.
It being a smaller space-time (4D) than the universe.
Except the Null Void isn't a 3-D space? It has time and it would be 4-D as well. An endless 4-D dimension existing in....another 4-D continuum is not a thing.
One of the definitions of pocket dimension in fiction is this though, so no we just look at which definition is most consistent with what we've been given.
Okay and you need to prove the verse uses applies that definition as a concept to argue it goes by this.
If you claim hyperbole on something then burden of proof is on you that the character is actually hyperboling
That's....not what I said. I said the character's statement could also be referring to a different interpretation and not the absolute biggest one that you took.
as it is a positive claim and since you have to assume Max is hyperboling, you end up with the most mental gymnastics.
The positive claim is taking what the biggest interpretaion is. And the biggest interpretation is thinking Max, a mere human, is aware of a dimension being infintely in scope.

Me arguing he can be referring to something simplier is not the positive here.

And notice how you pivoted to saying he "could have" gotten this information from something related to the Null Void like the Galvian records log. This is another assumption thats not proven in the show to support your first assumption that he says it's infinitely big. 2 assumptions to support your claim.
It was more-so that it was based on your notion that infinite pocket dimensions don't exist when you can't actually limit a work of fiction like that.
I can limit whatever I want if theres no suitable evidence or reasons given for what your claiming.
Why not secondary?
This is missing the point. Tetary, secondary, why is this being taken over the primary source, the show?

Besides that, given that the comics are supposed to be made by one of the show creators, I imagine this would be secondary canon instead of a novel.
 
Holiday confirmed they can travel to infinite dimensions, sorry and as that device is only capable of linking in-universe dimensions. We know where it ends.
Reusing evidence thats being argued against is not a counter argument.
I am saying all of them are parallel world's, it's given and one of those worlds is nullvoid, a pocket dimension that exist inside the universe which is a kind of universe in its own,
So they are all pocket dimensions then is what your saying.
I am saying again, Dimensions can have differences in one way or another just like collection of planets can have differences but we have to see what is common in among all known planets, is it that there is "collection of world's" and all known world's are planets then yes, its a collection of planets
Okay, then i'll ask this. Whats stopping me from saying these "in-universe" dimensions are not all the same size?

Hell, whats stopping me from claiming these "in-universe" dimensions are not even universes? Just unquantifiable sized dimensions that can't be given a rating for?

Once again. Either all of these dimensions being the same means they are all just pocket dimensions and, thus are not 2-A

or

Holidays statement is wrong, like i've been arguing, and the dimensional disruptor isn't able to go to any other dimension besides the Null Void, making it a limitation of range rather than assuming these other dimensions are inside the universe.
and find a freaking context my friend in the entire crossover where the word "dimension" has been used interchangeably? and Dagon's dimension has nothing to do with it.
Zamasu literally went over this with you before when he was here, but sure, i'll repost it.

Rex's universe is called a parallel world twice and Paradox confirms cross-time/timelines are parallel worlds.

And no, Paradox not being in the crossover is not a counter-argument. This is blatant case of the verse calling a timeline a parallel world, a term used in the crossover as well.
 
Reusing evidence thats being argued against is not a counter argument.
No one reusing it, they have only one device to go beyond the the dimension they live in. Prove that they have any other kind of device that can connect universes. Burden of proof is on you. Done proceed.

Okay, then i'll ask this. Whats stopping me from saying these "in-universe" dimensions are not all the same size?

Hell, whats stopping me from claiming these "in-universe" dimensions are not even universes? Just unquantifiable sized dimensions that can't be given a rating for?

Once again. Either all of these dimensions being the same means they are all just pocket dimensions and, thus are not 2-A
Go ahead and do it. And convince mods with this reasoning that universe is not 2A, I dare you. Check mate.

Holidays statement is wrong, like i've been arguing, and the dimensional disruptor isn't able to go to any other dimension besides the Null Void, making it a limitation of range rather than assuming these other dimensions are inside the universe.
I disagree for the reasons i already provided.

Zamasu literally went over this with you before when he was here, but sure, i'll repost it.

Rex's universe is called a parallel world twice and Paradox confirms cross-time/timelines are parallel worlds.

And no, Paradox not being in the crossover is not a counter-argument. This is blatant case of the verse calling a timeline a parallel world, a term used in the crossover as well
Zamasu shown me that Dagon dimension was referred as universe. This that and what not. Nothing about the crossover at all.

show me right now that even for once slightest chance they have used dimension word interchangeably for universe and in-universe Dimension in the crossover.

Nullvoid called alternate dimension, parallel dimension despite being a in-universe dimension, Dimension 12 called alternate dimension despite being a in-universe Dimension. Parallel world's/Dimensions in the crossover only stand for in-universe dimension. They have not referred to universe for even once.
 
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Only thing you can do is just calling them pocket dimensions and even then, a single pocket dimension in Ben 10 is infinite in size. Or can just go off assumptions just to downplay the verse. This crt doesn't debunk literally anything, there is no scan but just downplay, literally saying anything that supports 2A is unreliable or wrong.
 
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No one reusing it, they have only one device to go beyond the the dimension they live in. Prove that they have any other kind of device that can connect universes. Burden of proof is on you. Done proceed.
Them not having another kind of device has nothing to do with my point here.

The point is, the dimensional disruptors only feat of range is connecting to the Null Void. Why would this mean the other dimensions reside in the universe instead of just being a matter of it not having the range to go to other dimensions?

Go ahead and do it. And convince mods with this reasoning that universe is not 2A, I dare you. Check mate.
So you don't have any reasoning to consider these other dimensions, infinite or not, as actual universes?

Is the Null Void used as proof for this?
Zamasu shown me that Dagon dimension was referred as universe. This that and what not. Nothing about the crossover at all.
show me right now that even for once slightest chance they have used dimension word interchangeably for universe and in-universe Dimension in the crossover.
Why does it need to be specifically mentioned in the crossover?

Generator Rex and Ben 10 are in the same verse, they are canon to each other. If Parallel Worlds is used as a term for timelines in one and then again in another for Rex's world, that applies to them both.
Nullvoid called alternate dimension, parallel dimension despite being a in-universe dimension, Dimension 12 called alternate dimension despite being a in-universe Dimension. Parallel world's/Dimensions in the crossover only stand for in-universe dimension. They have not referred to universe for even once.
So your assuming that any mentions of dimensions in the crossover, and only the crossover, are only talking about pocket dimensions because of only 2 particular examples?
 
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