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Ben 10 Cosmology Downgrades & Other Things (Yes, this is happening again)
- Thread starter ProfessorKukui4Life
- Start date
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- Tags
- ben 10 ben 10 cosmology
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Regarding Holiday's Intelligence or Generator Rex's Scientist as a Whole
Apparently the nanite stuff in Generator Rex is built by the Earth Scientists itself, making them supergenius in nanotechnology Right ?. This information is itself incomplete. Apparently alot of people here including moderators and regular members are lacking knowledge on intelligent feats of generator rex. Some of those Nanites are capable controlling the very fabric of the universe ,energy,gravity ,Time-space, elemental ,all the things which makes a universe run. Notice something ?,apart from nanotechnology , scientists who built these nanites should also have knowledge regarding space-time since to make something the creator should have knowledge about the thing. Obviously Holiday also knows about this.
In the Crossover we have Rex making fun of Ben for being from a different dimension but he himself was taken to different dimensions by Breach, which he later talked with Holiday. Secondly, We have Rex time travelling with the help of Holiday which itself requires deep understanding of space-time. Van kleiss was himself time travelling and has the knowledge of timestream. He was also Time Travelling Through Various Eras of Time He was even to build one from the scrap and metallurgical knowledge of Roman/Medieval Era of 1500 BC .
OP points that unlike professor paradox, Holiday doesn't have deep understanding of space-time and her statements are only based on maths and calculation With all evidence provided above i would disagree with this .All the supergenius stuff they do is based off math and calculation All of this all together makes the scientists (including Holiday) supergenius and making their statements Reliable.
Even the canon DB cosmology is 2-B based off Trunk's statement just because he time travels.
Apparently the nanite stuff in Generator Rex is built by the Earth Scientists itself, making them supergenius in nanotechnology Right ?. This information is itself incomplete. Apparently alot of people here including moderators and regular members are lacking knowledge on intelligent feats of generator rex. Some of those Nanites are capable controlling the very fabric of the universe ,energy,gravity ,Time-space, elemental ,all the things which makes a universe run. Notice something ?,apart from nanotechnology , scientists who built these nanites should also have knowledge regarding space-time since to make something the creator should have knowledge about the thing. Obviously Holiday also knows about this.
In the Crossover we have Rex making fun of Ben for being from a different dimension but he himself was taken to different dimensions by Breach, which he later talked with Holiday. Secondly, We have Rex time travelling with the help of Holiday which itself requires deep understanding of space-time. Van kleiss was himself time travelling and has the knowledge of timestream. He was also Time Travelling Through Various Eras of Time He was even to build one from the scrap and metallurgical knowledge of Roman/Medieval Era of 1500 BC .
OP points that unlike professor paradox, Holiday doesn't have deep understanding of space-time and her statements are only based on maths and calculation With all evidence provided above i would disagree with this .All the supergenius stuff they do is based off math and calculation All of this all together makes the scientists (including Holiday) supergenius and making their statements Reliable.
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Thanks for choosing the favorite color for my name. I love it, (is it a coincidence? ig)
In regards to the tweets in question, while I understand the assertion that they may be perceived as a singular statement, it is important to consider that there are other non-direct questions and explanations provided by the author regarding the structure of the multiverse. It would be inappropriate to disregard these additional pieces of information, especially when they are cohesive with the overall narrative being presented.
Moreover, it is indispensable to note that the tweets in question are being used as supportive evidence, rather than primary evidence. As such, it would be more appropriate to address them in a subsequent manner, rather than as the initial point of discussion.
Secondly, while it is significant to adhere to established guidelines, such as those provided by Wikipedia, it is equally critical to consider the context in which these guidelines are being applied. Utilizing these guidelines as a primary argument, while ignoring the context in which they are being applied, does not effectively support the premise of the argument being presented.
Lastly, it is influential to note that I am of the belief that one should avoid generalizations in all cases. While there may be exceptions to certain guidelines, such as the usage of social media, it is significant to ensure that all necessary conditions are met before proceeding.
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Woah slow done there buddy. They discovered the dominion code, not made it, Rex's parents and Caesar putting it in the meta-nanites is impressive though. But that doesn't mean that every nanite scientist scales to this.
Rex was not time travelling in that instance, merely researching. Van Kleiss lived through the eras regularly (in stasis) after he got sent back in time by Breach. What VK actually did is build a stasis pod, not a time machine, back in Ancient Egypt and then improve upon it in Rome.
There is only a single reason why Holiday scales to the supergenius stuff, which I will elaborate upon if needed.
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Who discovered what?? It's first time I am hearing it. As per the lore I know, they said to made a "Little machine" (nanites) that can control everything. There is no such thing as they found something but built it properly.
Doctor holiday also shown to have indepth knowledge over quantum mechanics, shown to be aware of techyon particles, found it and explained it to the Rex that they're quantum particles that travels in time.
She was also able to detect the breach dimensions just by speculating the situations happened long time before.
Aside from all this she can calculate number of Dimensions mathematically. And our standards assumes the franchise follows actual mathematics unless shown otherwise.
Caesar and holiday has been in contact and helping each other frequently who was very well aware of parallel world's.
And, for the crossover part new Providence and old Providence were helping each other out regarding the situation world was in and we do know that Caesar and Doctor are in the main command when it comes to intelligence in both providence's and were the main ones who were working regarding these parallel world stuff from deep roots.
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Sure, gimme scans of them making the dominion code, I'll wait.
I know about tachyons and their properties too, not impressive.
English please.
Sure
That's literally my own argument. Though they don't talk much in season 3.
Only Caesar did any cross-organization efforts.
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Greenshifter soloing Reiner as always
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Who was the what now? Bro these are freaking human machines.
- It's literally stated to be programmed by the parents of Caesar and Rex.
- Nanites are literal human machines
Sure you do, How many times have you dealt with them? Never? That's all there is to it. And show not gonna give you professor asserted lectures about something, they'll tell you something that can be known commonly. All there matters that they have a dealing with it.
OP Argument of her being credible or not is done then, someone who is not making a statement carelessly and made it over research is definitely not something one can ignore
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I’m about to post my response to the larger walls of text soon.
But in the meantime, @Reiner
Once again, stop with the needless spamming of responses. You were already asked by me, and @Antvasima, to stop clogging this thread up with comment spamming.
If you have any other constructive stuff to say, edit an earlier response to include it instead of dragging the thread out with more responses. This is making the thread longer than it needs to be.
But in the meantime, @Reiner
Once again, stop with the needless spamming of responses. You were already asked by me, and @Antvasima, to stop clogging this thread up with comment spamming.
If you have any other constructive stuff to say, edit an earlier response to include it instead of dragging the thread out with more responses. This is making the thread longer than it needs to be.
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Sorry, but that was my response to greenshifter, the thread is not about only you and me, if there will be the argument I'll have to respond to them i suppose. And ant was talking about the jokes ppl were doing that time of which I wasn't the part of and I am the one who is telling people to not argue unnecessary things that will drag the debate such as size of nullvoid.
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Responding to the larger responses now.
Reiner
This is not remotely strong evidence of 2-A, and even if you want to have the benefit of the doubt, this is still from someone who doubted their existence in the first place.
You still haven't addressed the problem that these would be pocket dimensions, which are unquantifiable. And no, you can't assume all of these dimensions have the same size as each other based on the Null Void's evidence, where THAT evidence is already in hot water here as im going to get into later.
Even if we super generous and say all of these dimensions are somehow able to be assumed to be inside of the universe, and even if the number of them can be somehow considered infinite
They are pocket dimensions, which are not the same as regular full scale universes, so their sizes are considered unknown and not able to be quantified at a certain tier. And as I said, the evidence for them being considered endless is super weak.
And even with being generous, this at bare minimum makes that person unreliable for giving different responses that clearly don't go in line with each other. He would've said the same thing the first time if he consistently thought that.
For the umpteenth time, stop thinking what was accepted before is immune to being challenged
Omegabronic
If you ask if the verse contains infinite universes, you're asking if the verse is a 2-A one.
None of these super specific details are ones authors generally care about when their focus is to write their stories out. And the number of dimensions is not important to Ben 10 lore. The only thing about the narrative that is a plot point is the verse introducing Multiversal shenanigan's to the franchise, the specific number of universes is an unimportant detail.
You cannot assume a writer has these details in mind when giving these answers out. Do you seriously think Duncan, Derrick or any of these writers for Ben 10 have "how many timelines did we write into the series?' when being asked these specific questions of cosmology size and giving quick, brief answers back? You need to be the one to prove this.
But this is besides the point.
If the writers came to the conclusion on their own without being influenced by those questions, that would be one thing. But that isn't the case.
Like I pointed out, how do we know these answers were seriously made? How do we know they had these details of "number of timelines in the multiverse" in mind when giving answers back? We don't know that for sure, and at the end of the day, the claim that takes less assumptions is taken over what takes more assumptions.
How specifically big it is, whether infinite or just having a **** ton of universes, matters extremely little to the storyline.
Explain to me how a quick yes/no answer is not vague.
If he legitimately thought there were flat out universes, there wouldn't be any other interpretation besides that one.
And I don't have to explain how yes/no are weak answers when we are a site that requires well explained evidence and context. A "yes" / "no" answer doesn't do that.
Greenshifter
On that note, that brings me to the next thing.
A pocket dimension being an endless universe literally goes against the very meaning of it being called a pocket dimension in the first place. When has a pocket dimension ever been considered infinite?
But more importantly, if that's the evidence for the Null Void being considered endless, then I don't agree with that evidence being legit upon looking at it. While Max has been in the Null Void a lot of times during his days as a plumber, simply traveling around in a dimension that looks like it's endless from your point of view, and coming to the conclusion that there's no end to it, is weak reasoning to deduce that there's no limit to the dimensions size when the dimension could simply either continue to expand beyond what is able to be seen, or is so big that Max can't cover all of it when inside the Null Void. There are other and very much plausible explanations besides automatically assuming the dimension is endless in scope.
Max doesn't have cosmic awareness. How do we know that Max just simply didn't get to cover the entirety of the dimension because it's simply too big for him to do that?
On top of that, the dimension being directly called a pocket space in-universe is a hammer against this idea that it's an endless dimension. For you to continue proclaiming it still is an endless dimension, you have to use bigger assumptions about arguing pocket spaces being able to be endless, whereas the simpler and more conservative assumption, that doesn't take this big of a leap in logic, is that it simply isn't considered endless. Not without more evidence helping to prove this case.
@Greenshifter if there is other evidence for an endless pocket dimension besides this statement, direct me to it please.
Reiner
Already responded to this. Of course someone who wants a big upgrade is going to see this as "more than enough". This is a non argument.
Cool, and me addressing what I don't agree with is mine.
Context that is being challenged in this thread, and people who weren't present in those revisions are now questioning this or disagreeing. SWhat was accepted before does not make it immune to being challenged. Especially by people who were not present at the time.
? You said staff off site agree with your take. I asked you to ask them come to this thread to argue against this if that's actually the case. Pretty simple.
More as in you can't answer the question because you don't have a proper and ACTUAL counter argument against an argument that gave reasons to eviscerate her credibility on the topic of parallel worlds.
And I disagree with this now as well based on the evidence I see given for this. I'll be arguing against that here too.
Yeah no. You still haven't answered the actual question. When has math ever been able to grasp the existence of parallel universes, much less infinite ones, beyond reasonable doubt?
This is not remotely strong evidence of 2-A, and even if you want to have the benefit of the doubt, this is still from someone who doubted their existence in the first place.
Again, this is bad comparison. But lets play devils advocate for a second and say what you are saying here is the case then.
You still haven't addressed the problem that these would be pocket dimensions, which are unquantifiable. And no, you can't assume all of these dimensions have the same size as each other based on the Null Void's evidence, where THAT evidence is already in hot water here as im going to get into later.
It's simple.
Even if we super generous and say all of these dimensions are somehow able to be assumed to be inside of the universe, and even if the number of them can be somehow considered infinite
They are pocket dimensions, which are not the same as regular full scale universes, so their sizes are considered unknown and not able to be quantified at a certain tier. And as I said, the evidence for them being considered endless is super weak.
Yeah, what evidence is there that proves he had the Naljians dimensions in mind?
Yeah, if someone gives one answer that is super elaborated with a bunch of details and then that same person gives a quick uncaring answer in another instance, the former is obviously going to be taken as a more seriously thought of answer.
And even with being generous, this at bare minimum makes that person unreliable for giving different responses that clearly don't go in line with each other. He would've said the same thing the first time if he consistently thought that.
This is a thread tackling what happened in those revisions and challenging their evidences. So I don't have to make another new thread to do exactly that.
For the umpteenth time, stop thinking what was accepted before is immune to being challenged
Omegabronic
This is reverse burden of proof. The positive claim here is what needs to be proven, I don't need to prove a negative. You are the one claiming these answers are legitimate, serious answers. You are the one that has to first prove they are making serious answers to begin with.
Seriously? Asking about the size of a given verse is literally a battleboarding question to ask what tier said verse would be. If you ask someone if a verse has millions of dimensions, you're asking them if the verse is Multiversal. Or 2-B in our sites case of terms.
If you ask if the verse contains infinite universes, you're asking if the verse is a 2-A one.
None of these super specific details are ones authors generally care about when their focus is to write their stories out. And the number of dimensions is not important to Ben 10 lore. The only thing about the narrative that is a plot point is the verse introducing Multiversal shenanigan's to the franchise, the specific number of universes is an unimportant detail.
As I said above, once again, you are reversing the burden of proof. The positive is what needs evidence first, not a negative.
You cannot assume a writer has these details in mind when giving these answers out. Do you seriously think Duncan, Derrick or any of these writers for Ben 10 have "how many timelines did we write into the series?' when being asked these specific questions of cosmology size and giving quick, brief answers back? You need to be the one to prove this.
Claiming they are uncaring is not a negative. Claiming they are serious answers is the positive.
Pretty simple to understand. An interview is an actual proper discussion between the writer and reporter/interviewer who, in this discussion, has the permission to ask the writer questions. So asking questions to the creator is fair game here as it's their job to in an interview.
But this is besides the point.
It's less valid because fans are the ones presenting these random out of nowhere topics to the writer's social media, topics they more than likely do not care about or have in mind for their series.
If the writers came to the conclusion on their own without being influenced by those questions, that would be one thing. But that isn't the case.
Like I pointed out, how do we know these answers were seriously made? How do we know they had these details of "number of timelines in the multiverse" in mind when giving answers back? We don't know that for sure, and at the end of the day, the claim that takes less assumptions is taken over what takes more assumptions.
You didn't really explain it, and besides, I covered this above. The only thing important to the plot of the later Ben 10 series is the introduction to the Multiverse as part of said plot.
How specifically big it is, whether infinite or just having a **** ton of universes, matters extremely little to the storyline.
Lets use common sense here please? A brief answer is an answer that is unelaborated on. Under-explained. The more details and thought that gets put into an answer, the more clarified that answer becomes.
Explain to me how a quick yes/no answer is not vague.
....This is a terrible comparison. Asking about what species you belong to and asking if there are infinite universes in existence is not the same thing.
Which does the opposite of an actual direct answer. If he legit thought there were infinite universes, without a shadow of a doubt in Ben 10, he wouldn't mention things about there being different interpretations of the multiverse, where one is infinite and one is not.
If he legitimately thought there were flat out universes, there wouldn't be any other interpretation besides that one.
One possibility. Not the only possibility.
Yes, but then this comes down to cherry picking apart his answer to take what you want out of it.
Saying different interpretations exist is the exact opposite of confirming one of them is precisely the case.
And what proves this?
Again, what proves this? The only statement given is "infinite timestream", nothing proves all of these possibilities are all existing at the same time.
See above.
Paradox doesn't go off of a "present perspective" however, he is clearly aware of and has a deep understanding of space-time and how parallel worlds work.
There is? Thinking about infinite timelines is not a simple question.
And I don't have to explain how yes/no are weak answers when we are a site that requires well explained evidence and context. A "yes" / "no" answer doesn't do that.
Greenshifter
A new statement about the size of the dimensions happens in a LATER sequel series. Pretty clearly retconning what the previous series says about it.
Yes, but Ben isn't the one in Alien Force that calls it a Pocket Dimension when explaining it's background, it was another character. But Ben being a reliable character on the matter of dimensional size is not exactly strong evidence either way.
On that note, that brings me to the next thing.
A pocket dimension being an endless universe literally goes against the very meaning of it being called a pocket dimension in the first place. When has a pocket dimension ever been considered infinite?
But more importantly, if that's the evidence for the Null Void being considered endless, then I don't agree with that evidence being legit upon looking at it. While Max has been in the Null Void a lot of times during his days as a plumber, simply traveling around in a dimension that looks like it's endless from your point of view, and coming to the conclusion that there's no end to it, is weak reasoning to deduce that there's no limit to the dimensions size when the dimension could simply either continue to expand beyond what is able to be seen, or is so big that Max can't cover all of it when inside the Null Void. There are other and very much plausible explanations besides automatically assuming the dimension is endless in scope.
Max doesn't have cosmic awareness. How do we know that Max just simply didn't get to cover the entirety of the dimension because it's simply too big for him to do that?
On top of that, the dimension being directly called a pocket space in-universe is a hammer against this idea that it's an endless dimension. For you to continue proclaiming it still is an endless dimension, you have to use bigger assumptions about arguing pocket spaces being able to be endless, whereas the simpler and more conservative assumption, that doesn't take this big of a leap in logic, is that it simply isn't considered endless. Not without more evidence helping to prove this case.
@Greenshifter if there is other evidence for an endless pocket dimension besides this statement, direct me to it please.
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Stating information is irrelevant to the discussion at hand =/= us lacking knowledge on intelligence feats. We aren't saying the characters are not smart. We are saying these feats do not matter in regards to what is being talked about here.
I don't know why people keeping having this strange idea of thinking listing random intelligence feats means anything they say can be credible
But sure, ill play along again.
Number of issues
First of all, unless im mistaking the episode this was said in, this information on the Meta-Nanites was made in the series finale of Generator Rex after Rex had obtained and weaponized all 5 of them. Which obviously happens after the Crossover event. So even if pushing this very high, Holiday at the time of the crossover did not possess this knowledge on what the Meta-Nanites could do.
Second of all, the Nanites controlling the fabric of the universe was not something the members of the Nanite project originally knew about, they discovered this well after creating nanites. They didn't create the Dominion Code, they discovered it.
And third, im going to ask this one more time. What does knowing about something that manipulates the fabric of the universe have anything to do with understanding the existence of parallel universes? These are 2 different things and they literally having no relevance to each other.
These were pocket dimensions, not alternate universes. This also takes bigger assumption that Rex gave a bunch of details to Holiday off-screen for her to study these.
What episode(s) did this happen in by the way?
Also has nothing to do with understanding parallel universes. Like, at all. Knowing alternate universes exist is completely different than time traveling.
See above.
Everything you presented here has little to nothing to do with the subject of knowing about the existence of parallel universes. Find me intelligence related to this specifically, and you would probably have some kind of point.
But to play devils advocate even more, lets say Holiday did have at least some of this knowledge before the Crossover episode with Ben 10 happened.
This would strengthen my point on her statement being less reliable even more. Since your argument entails that Holiday had some of this knowledge before the Crossover happened, the fact at the end of the day that is indisputable is that she adamantly claimed parallel worlds were a theory. A SHAKY theory, meaning in Generator Rex, it is a theory that is on the border of being deemed hard to prove. She wouldn't have said this if that wasn't the case.
And no, her not believing Ben is not an excuse for this. If Holiday actually believed that parallel worlds were real, she wouldn't have dismissed Ben's statement all together by saying they are a shaky theory. She would've believed they existed, and just thought Ben was lying about being from one of them, rather than dismiss their existence all together as only theoretical.
If she had all this knowledge beforehand, and still didn't believe parallel universes were 100% real, then the knowledge your claiming she had wasn't enough for her to deduce they exist. Meaning, she did not have the knowledge to know for a fact they exist and believed they didn't.
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I find the evidence more than enough sorry? I don't care if you are convinced or not. There will be ppl who always stay denial of everything. I don't have to convince you but have to send convincing evidence and that's what I did.
Convince then. Not me but everyone here.
I am talking about @Maverick_Zero_X dude. She didn't agreed with the multiverse take even in this thread. No one have to come or go
The context is enough. Entire episode is dealing with number of timelines and maltruant threw that infinite timestream statement while talking about timelines. Supported by authors and paradox and all. So enough. You don't have to reply to me about something I am convinced but rather have to convince others that is your thread and your job. If ppl think what I've provided is not enough they can disagree with me and if think it's fine they can disagree with you. Don't try to convince me. Just give the convincing evidence and leave it to others to judge.
Ask doctor holiday not me? I am not here professor sitting to read theories, all there is that answer wasn't careless or random statement but was made after research.
Okay. If you think so.
Literally the scan you are talking about has it in the question. See yourself or just post that Duncan statement you are talking about.
The first statement of Duncan was in 2020 that he corrected later on in 2022. The second statement has shown to be same as the statement of DJW who has significantly worked in the series and is more credible than Duncan himself. Not to mention that he has corrected himself to the line of DJW shows that his statement is accurate, not that they both contradicted each other but just one author corrected himself later on. And that statement of infinite is what has been supported in the show.
Smh just make your thread on it. On how many things we have to convince you just because you Disagree?? That thread has been accepted long ago and include it in the OP, ask moderators to agree with it, don't come telling around to tell me suddenly you disagree with one more thread and want to discuss it in the middle suddenly just because your argument got in danger off the bat.
Pocket dimension is infinite in Ben 10 thank you very much make your thread to remove it or include it in the OP and debunk that thread in the OP, ask moderators to agree with it. Telling me you suddenly disagree because your pocket dimension arguement is not working is not the way. Suddenly bringing up different accepted things and kept disagreeing with them just so that your argument proceed is not how the debate done.
You freaking have to, I don't have strength to try to convince you over everything you kept disagreeing just so that your argument can proceed and do not stays in danger, include it in the OP,debunk that thread in the OP, ask moderators to agree with it, learn that I don't care about your DISAGREEMENTS , it was accepted by everyone including whose arguements you copy pasted in the OP
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That's not how retcons work, show me the contradiction.
Ben called it a pocket dimension, but you're right the Null Void inhabitant also called it that.
Dude if an author wants to make a pocket dimension infinite in size they can, there's different meanings for pocket dimension anyways. It being smaller than another dimension would qualify for it being called a pocket dimension in comparison.
Max literally has access to Plumber databases and could have literally gotten that information from the Galvan themselves.
Some pocket spaces in Ben 10 being infinite is a conclusion rather than an assumption, what you're trying to do is forcing a contradiction which doesn't explain anything and thus by default is inferior to any interpretation that doesn't force a contradiction.
Sure
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This is freaking my scan, this is freaking my youtube channel and you are the one collecting credits
Regardless, if OP still being denial of this scan and Max scan or disagree with both, include it in the OP, debunk it and ask mods to evaluate it as well.
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Thankfully I have the bigger staff support who, at minimum, find this very questionable and at the most, agree to downgrade.
Better relook at the first page. She said she was neutral as far as the general multiverse goes, but agrees with nuking every universe being 2-A.
And? Mentioning those 2 things doesnt mean they are connected without evidence.
And this I argue is unproven. If you feel otherwise, that's on you. But im going to argue against this and see what others say. Get the bigger staff support for this and then i'll be more willing to settle with it.
Paradox's "support" is 2-B, you have ONE in universe statement that actually mentions infinite, looping that one evidence with these author statements, which are not infallible, to make circular claims of support is not ironclad evidence.
And research can be wrong. Don't deflect the question just because you don't have a proper answer and don't want to admit that maybe, just maybe, this line of reasoning is ridiculous and not actual evidence?
"Just trust me" is all im getting from this.
Now all of a sudden one creator is more credible than another one when they both are apart of Man of Action? How convenient.
Once again, if someone early on gives an elaborated answer that has actual thought and clarified details put into it, the likelyhood of them correcting themselves with a quick one worded response later on being the case is low.
But as I said, get the bigger staff support here for this and i'll be more cooperative with this.
I don't care. Stop forcing a derailment and saying things are off topic just because something was already accepted, which isnt how things work here on this site. Anything can be challenged and put into question at any time I and others want. Simple as that.
I was not here when all of this was decided on, and neither were some of the people in this thread. I don't have to abide by what was accepted already. If I find things problematic and want to make a thread challenging what got accepted, I can and im doing so now.
This thread is made to put what got accepted into question. Guess what? This evidence of endless sized pocket dimensions falls under that, and im seeing said evidence in this thread for the first time. So no, I don't need to make a whole other new thread that does the exact same as this one. This is on topic and will be done here.
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That's because you said in the OP that there is no evidence. While I shown entire freaking context to it. There was strawman in the OP who rather than debunking my thread invalidated it and those who read thought it's true is not a support it's tricking PPL.
I am settle, we both have 1 on 1 staff support on it. @Maverick_Zero_X is neutral, mind you.
Man. How hard it is for you to make a proper crt to include all things you want to argue? How many staff or ppl here agrees with your point of nullvoid not being infinite in size based of my crt? None. It's what happens when you don't link relevant things in the OP and keep arguing about it endlessly. That's derailment. Me suggesting you to include relevant things in the OP or if it has gone far enough to do that then make a another crt is not.
I am not replying to anything else as they are just same with "I don't find it convincing", "I don't agree with it", "I find it unreliable" whatsover. I don't care about excuses.
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That is exactly how it works. What happens later > what happens before.
It's already linked in the OP.
And writers can't do whatever they want without consequences. If a writer incorrectly displays something in their series and makes a mistake, that is their own fault.
What the series shows > what the writers intention is
And no, not really? A POCKET dimension is exactly what the term implies, not being a real universe but an unquantifiable sized space.
And this is exactly the crux of the problem here with this. "Could have", "possibly", "might have"
Theres nothing solidly proving this is factual. This is taking one possible interpretation, the highest interpretation, and passing this off as 100% definitive.
We don't take evidence that isn't solid for such extraordinary claims.
No, what im doing is that im looking at the interpretation used and offering possible interpretations that take less leaps in logic to conclude. What we take here is the lowest assumption first until something proves the higher interpretation.
Your taking the highest interpretation and coming to that conclusion all on your own.
Uh, where is this from?
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An assumption based off evidence for specific dimensions, where THAT evidence is in hot water as well, is not evidence for everything else.
But sure. I will reask @Everything12 and @Maverick_Zero_X to relook at everything said so far and ask where they stand.
And claiming evidence is insufficient is also a counter argument, not a strawman.
No, @Maverick_Zero_X again is neutral about the Multiverse being 2-A in general. She outright said she agrees to downgrade every universe from being a 2-A structure.
A CRT doesn't have to include every argument before posting it. If unexpected stuff they were unaware about comes in the thread, they can absolutely argue against it.
And this "evidence" for the Null Void is exactly that.
Because as I just said, this was something I was not aware about when writing this up and is something im recently just now seeing.
I will ask them to look at this evidence as well.
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If there is a contradiction yes.
Your headcanon of how a pocket dimension can't be infinite you mean?
Depends on what your definition of pocket dimension is, it being small in comparison to the main universe would make the usage of the term correct. Another way it can be used is to signify that it can be easily accessed by the characters, such as with a Null Void Projector in this instance.
"What the knowledgeable character says isn't actually true because I think pocket dimensions can't be infinite" is a pretty big leap in logic. Opposed to "Knowledgeable character says that a pocket dimension is infinite, so it is" which seems like a rather small "leap in logic".
Plumbers Helpers novel.
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STOP STRAWMANING, I am warning you again. A generalization based of context and sagan standard is not assumption. It's very basic thing that literally All verses do. The all known dimensions from even that particular statement of infinite dimensions are "in-universe" dimension and so there is a context to the statement that they're talking about "in-universe" dimension. You cannot break a single statement of infinite dimension and say that some are referring to "axiomatic dimensions", some are referring to "universes", some are referring to "in-universe dimensions", some are referring to "planets", there is context. So we have the result.
The fact that they have no way to travel to another universe and if universe includes only handful of "in- universe" dimensions then it doesn't makes sense for doctor holiday to say that there are infinite dimensions so you can't find Ben's dimension. It's illogical. Why they'll care about universes when they can't even travel to it.
Entire movie has concerned itself with only in-universe dimensions and has only dealing with it, why we will quote off single statement out of context of the entire crossover for no reason?
OP counter argument: universes and Dimensions has been shown to be used interchangeably in the other episodes that has nothing to do with the crossover and so all statements about dimensions, regardless if they have context to it, regardless that dimensions hasn't been shown to used interchangeably in the crossover, cannot be used anymore. This is most W arguement I have ever heard on vs battle.
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And it being directly called a pocket dimension is one.
Something that is extremely common as such is not headcanon, and common sense would tell you the first interpretation of pocket space is going to be it's not an actual universe. Much less an endless one.
That and our site even not considering a pocket dimension as anything but unquantifiable.
And and endless dimension is somehow "smaller" than the universe....how?
You would then have to prove "pocket dimension" is a in-universe term for a space that's easily accessible to Ben 10 characters for this to be the case. Which is another added assumption.
And taking what the character says to the absolute biggest extent, that this space is endless in scope, is a bigger leap in logic. The leap that doesn't take the most mental gymnastics to conclude is what gets taken first as that doesn't require the most evidence.
It doesn't matter if the character is knowledgeable or not, you need to prove the highest interpretation is what's the case. Not assume it.
A negative claim is not a bigger leap in logic than a positive claim.
Im going to assume this is canon then and ask this.
Wouldn't this be tertary canon evidence?
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I specifically mentioned those intelligence feats which are relevant to the discussion. Their knowledge regarding space-time ,timestream ,time travel ,existence of parallel dimensions.
Just read it properly. I haven't listed any of their RANDOM intelligence feats. All on topic.
She scales to the intelligence of the scientists who made the meta-nanites who could alter space-time. Mind it , having knowledge regarding space-time itself makes the statements of character with regards to cosmology reliable. Your point of it being a series finale is moot. Meta nanites were created long before the nanite event born by scientists which includes caeser salzar. She knew it all along.
They Specifically Created the Meta Nanite which could do all those universal altering stuff including space-time. Without having the knowledge of the stuff ,its not possible to create such stuff. My point is that those scientists have the knowledge of space-time good enough for their statements to be reliable. One anti-feat means nothing to it, when the overall narrative says the opposite.
I specifically bolded the space-time stuff. Their knowledge of space-time is good enough for them to create something which can alter it. That includes existence of parallel worlds. This in itself makes their statement with regards to cosmology reliable.
Boi , in the scan itself they were shown talking to each other on call. There is no assumption
They have knowledge about the timestream itself, which automatically includes parallel worlds.
Its not necessary for them to show something before we can consider their statements reliable. As i say ,they have good enough knowledge about the timestream (which includes parallel worlds) ,space-time for their statements to be considered reliable.
You know what. Parallel worlds are those universes which COMPLETELY MIRRORS ours. This in itself is different for the context of Ben 10. They don't mirror each other 100% same and the history in itself is slightly different. She referring to that SHAKY theory could mean to various theories proposed regarding it. Her making a statement regarding cosmology is extremely different. They have the knowledge of space-time good enough. You can't refute her statements just because its hard for them to prove, Caeser re-opened the portal for Ben and they even went to ben's dimension in Hero Times 2 by tracking ultimatrix's signal.
Despite saying in the crossover, it would not be possible for Rex and Ben to meet again , they eventually did that in the hero times two comic. Its not that tough for Scientists like Holiday to deduce or figure out something they first questioned.
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this is the basic assumption, their show is about this, one of the writers said that he considers twitter as a valid option to get answers about the said show, they caring requires less assumptions than they not caring, hence we use it, can you give any reason whatsoever as for why they wouldn't care? like massive plot points resolve around this, even for entire seasons in omniverse, they have to care to write the story in the first place
this is not true, ben 10 has plot points and even entire seasons revolving around the multiverse and its different realities, to ask about the size of it is to ask about the series lore and world building, battleboarding does not need to be relevant for the person to ask about this and you saying that it is is an non provable assumption
read above
you are ignoring my point, in this case they HAVE to care to write the story, since their STORY revolves around this subject, it is incredibly for the ben 10 series, with even entire sagas of the shown resolving around it, to say that they don't care about it is to ignore the massive story points of the shown, the number of universes IS important when you are telling an multiversal story, how many characters can you introduce? with how many universes? with something is threatening the said said universes how to represent it? see? it is important and i have no idea why would you that it isn't
i already did that, this is why i am asking for you to give your proof of otherwise, i even gave the duncan example in the very sentence you are answering
considering that this resolves around massive plots of the show, yes, yes i think so, and gave me no reason to think otherwise outside of your own disbelief, which is not an argument to begin with
how can one not be a negative but the other is also a positive? are they both positives? they caring about something that is a very important part of the lore of the series requires less assumptions than they not caring, just because reasons, you just keep saying that they wouldn't care without giving any reason as to why, therefore it is a positive that you need to back up with evidence, since authors caring about their world building is a basic logical assumption
regardless i already gave reason as to why they do care in the first place
......everyone is allowed to ask questions to the writers, or creators, or animators and whatever else, they are humans after all, if people were not allowed to ask questions we wouldn't be having this debate in the first place
already explained why they would care in the first place, so read above
and you assume that they were because?
this is why we have to use assumption that they care and are being serious, duncan said as much, massive plot points of the series revolves around this subject, the rake that they care has almost no assumptions at all
which includes how is it formed, its size, its structure etc. again i don't see your point
if you personally believe in this sure, but without a given reason as to why you can't use this as an argument
the question is very simple structuraly, i don't see how could it be elabored in the question at hand since the question is one of "yes or no" simple questions don't require long answers, idk what you expected them to answer, see my example again bellow
the question itself is not important, but the structure of it, please answer, would you simply say "yes/no" or would exaplain why you aren't or are a human in the example? if you still don't get it, here is another example, if someone asked "do you have hair?" would you answer "yes/no" or would you explain why? note that the subject of the question is not important, but only the structure of it
he was not talking about the series in that part, but on the interpretations of physics on the matter irl, later on when asked about series itself he confirmed that the interpretation used is the infinite one
in the series itself it doesn't, plus do you have the original tweet? i am pretty sure that the question was not about universes in that context
i don't see how this is relevant to my argument
not really, he was talking about how many different interpretations there is in real life, he never said that this was the case in ben 10, he only said that it would have as many as the irl multiverse, giving a valid interpretation of infinite, which is confirmed to be the one used when he was asked again later on, so we would use the infinite part since that is what it is used
he said that different exist in real life, not in the show
basic logic? the only reason ad infinitum is not considered infinite is because of time, because the possibilities need time to occur, because they are constantly created along a time period, with infinite time, there is infinite possibilities yet to occur, but if you are outside of time, aka the realm of the time stream in ben 10, you would see past present and future all at once, aka all the possibilities that could occur aka the infinite realities that would be created in the future would already exist by your perspective
read above
see above
who said anything about paradox? i am talking about the time stream, when paradox is explaining the concept of the multiverse to ben and co, he is explaining in a "present perspective" since in that "moment" there really is finite universes, but when accounting all of time and the time stream, it is infinite in its totality, more explanations above
show me what they could have said, if the answer is "yes" then there is no need to say anything but "yes", the question is simple in structure, therefore you need only a simple structured answer, if you think otherwise show an example of how could they have answered in this case
they are weak because? the answers are part of the explanation, taking them alone without the other evidence is dishonest since they are a complement
PrinceofPein
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I think both parties should chill out a bit, the thread is going back and forth, I think it is time to call in for evaluation before the thread gets any larger
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The point is that OP first of all didn't put my arguements in the thread and invalidated them by saying there is nothing. It's wrong and all. OP kept strawmaning a simple generalization that is very basic to continously saying it's baseless assumption. Despite he just said recently in the previous page that either all the infinite dimensions are "in-universe" pocket dimension or they aren't and the moment he found out pocket dimensions has been accepted to be infinite in size he goes back and repeated assumption thing and even start being denial towards infinite pocket dimension, regardless I said include it in the OP debunk it and ask staff if they accept it but no, he want to argue over it endlessly with no conclusion? He is just being denial at all points regarding Universe is 2A.
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Yeah and we already have another B10 thread happening, I mean this thread should've happened right after the one that came before it.
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Its not necessary. We can have three CRTs for a verse at a time.
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Yeah but we have both an upgrade and downgrade thread happening at the same time.
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Your "context" for this was given for ONE or few dimensions that had evidence and then assuming it for the rest of them.
None of the verses I know of do this very thing at all. What they use have actual evidence supplied for them being the case. If there's any series here you know that does the same as this, point them out.
And that particular statement of infinite dimensions is being called into question at the same time as the rest, and even IF this is remotely a legitimate statement
Your argument still doesn't address the actual fact that
1.) The Dimensional Disruptor not allowing Rex and the others to go to different worlds can easily be a matter of range, only linking to specifically to the Null Void.
2.) That "in-universe" dimensions are just a fancified way of calling them all pocket dimensions. If your saying Rex's dimension, Ledgerdomain, Dagons 99 dimensions and the rest are the same type of dimension because of Holiday's statement and the disruptor, you are saying these are all pocket dimensions.
And by admitting THAT, you bring the next problem, that you cant give a tier for housing pocket dimensions.
See above. Either the Dimensional Disruptor doesn't have the range, or all these dimensions being considered the same as each other makes them pocket dimensions only.
And yet another writer said only what's acknowledged in the show is to be taken as valid.
This is not the basic assumption, and the rule itself banning general cases pretty much tells you we don't treat it as that either.
Because details like the specific size of a multiverse is not something important for the storyline or lore of their series? A Multiverse by definition is just a collection of universes, no matter what the size of it is. As long as the concept is introduced into the story like they intended it to be is done, that already fulfills the purpose they wanted.
It literally doesn't matter at all if the multiverse, from the writers perspectives, is infinite or not. It doesn't disallow them from writing their series to include multiversal concepts into the storyline, so we have no reason to believe they would have any care about a super specific detail like that.
Whats important for their lore in later installations is including a Multiverse. How big it specifically is doesn't prevent them from doing that. Arguing that microscopic details like this is integral to the story is borderline nitpicking.
See above for pretty much all of this.
Mine is the negative because its simplier and more reasonable to believe these details are not important in their eyes when most writers don't care as long as they get their stories written to their intention, which is the number 1 priority for them.
Yours is the positive because your claiming a small, otherwise unimportant and specific detail, that changes nothing about their writing process and doesn't prevent them from writing their show the way they intended, is still an important detail to have in mind when answering these questions.
At this point, agree to disagree and see where staff and the majority stands on this as this is getting circular.
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Nope
Except when their size is quantified, of course.
It being a smaller space-time (4D) than the universe.
One of the definitions of pocket dimension in fiction is this though, so no we just look at which definition is most consistent with what we've been given. So if it is that definition and it prevents a contradiction from happening, then we use it.
If you claim hyperbole on something then burden of proof is on you that the character is actually hyperboling as it is a positive claim and since you have to assume Max is hyperboling, you end up with the most mental gymnastics.
It was more-so that it was based on your notion that infinite pocket dimensions don't exist when you can't actually limit a work of fiction like that.
Why not secondary?
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Holiday confirmed they can travel to infinite dimensions, sorry and as that device is only capable of linking in-universe dimensions. We know where it ends.
I am saying all of them are parallel world's, it's given and one of those worlds is nullvoid, a pocket dimension that exist inside the universe which is a kind of universe in its own, I am saying again, Dimensions can have differences in one way or another just like collection of planets can have differences but we have to see what is common in among all known planets, is it that there is "collection of world's" and all known world's are planets then yes, its a collection of planets and find a freaking context my friend in the entire crossover where the word "dimension" has been used interchangeably? and Dagon's dimension has nothing to do with it.
See above, it can connect infinite dimensions.
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ok agree to disagree then and waiting for evaluation
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What does knowing about something that can mess with a single universe's space-time have anything to do with understanding how space-time works on a Multiversal scale?
Answer this please.
See above.
And none of those scientists knew what the Meta-nanites could do, again they did not possess that knowledge beforehand, they discovered it AFTER they made nanites. And Holiday was not at all involved with the original Nanite project, nor was she involved in creating the Meta-Nanites.
And see above yet again please.
This is absolute headcanon and completely ridiculous. You absolutely can create something with capabilities you didn't know prior about. Literally what?
Your headcanon goes completely against what the series even entails. The members of the Nanite project DISCOVERED the Dominion code and what it was capable of WELL after they invented nanites, they weren't aware of this in the first place.
This isn't just an anti-feat, it's a literal plot point that they didn't know about the code.
See above.
A universes space time being altered =/= understading space-time across a Multiversal scale.
And that said knowledge only allowed them to time travel.
Time traveling is not understanding parallel worlds exist, your connecting 2 things that have nothing to do with each other.
.........Im not even going to entertain this nonsensical point.
And as I said, parallel worlds being included had nothing to do with them needing to time travel, they are unrelated things. Time traveling is not traveling to a parallel universe.
You just admitted you don't know what a parallel universe is. A parallel world doesn't need to be exactly the same? Differences between parallel worlds exist all the time, this is basic Many Worlds Interpretation.
Which is what the Many Worlds Interpretation is.
I absolutely can. The character herself gutted her own credibility when denying the existence of a parallel universe, even with all of this so called "relevant" knowledge you mentioned that somehow lets her understand it. And use common sense. If it's hard for the theory to be proven by their point of view, that means they don't believe in the existence of parallel worlds being a fact.
A feat fro Caesar. Not Holiday.
Okay and? We know they were wrong in the first place as parallel worlds obviously exist despite Holiday saying its a shaky theory.
The point is that her point of view is not credible BECAUSE she said that. Her word cant be trusted on this subject for doubting their existence.
And that doesn't mean that what they say with confidence later on is true.
Great counter argument, truly.
Then they wouldn't be considered a pocket dimension in the first place.
Except the Null Void isn't a 3-D space? It has time and it would be 4-D as well. An endless 4-D dimension existing in....another 4-D continuum is not a thing.
Okay and you need to prove the verse uses applies that definition as a concept to argue it goes by this.
That's....not what I said. I said the character's statement could also be referring to a different interpretation and not the absolute biggest one that you took.
The positive claim is taking what the biggest interpretaion is. And the biggest interpretation is thinking Max, a mere human, is aware of a dimension being infintely in scope.
Me arguing he can be referring to something simplier is not the positive here.
And notice how you pivoted to saying he "could have" gotten this information from something related to the Null Void like the Galvian records log. This is another assumption thats not proven in the show to support your first assumption that he says it's infinitely big. 2 assumptions to support your claim.
I can limit whatever I want if theres no suitable evidence or reasons given for what your claiming.
This is missing the point. Tetary, secondary, why is this being taken over the primary source, the show?
Besides that, given that the comics are supposed to be made by one of the show creators, I imagine this would be secondary canon instead of a novel.
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Reusing evidence thats being argued against is not a counter argument.
So they are all pocket dimensions then is what your saying.
Okay, then i'll ask this. Whats stopping me from saying these "in-universe" dimensions are not all the same size?
Hell, whats stopping me from claiming these "in-universe" dimensions are not even universes? Just unquantifiable sized dimensions that can't be given a rating for?
Once again. Either all of these dimensions being the same means they are all just pocket dimensions and, thus are not 2-A
or
Holidays statement is wrong, like i've been arguing, and the dimensional disruptor isn't able to go to any other dimension besides the Null Void, making it a limitation of range rather than assuming these other dimensions are inside the universe.
Zamasu literally went over this with you before when he was here, but sure, i'll repost it.
Rex's universe is called a parallel world twice and Paradox confirms cross-time/timelines are parallel worlds.
And no, Paradox not being in the crossover is not a counter-argument. This is blatant case of the verse calling a timeline a parallel world, a term used in the crossover as well.
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No one reusing it, they have only one device to go beyond the the dimension they live in. Prove that they have any other kind of device that can connect universes. Burden of proof is on you. Done proceed.
Go ahead and do it. And convince mods with this reasoning that universe is not 2A, I dare you. Check mate.
I disagree for the reasons i already provided.
Zamasu shown me that Dagon dimension was referred as universe. This that and what not. Nothing about the crossover at all.
show me right now that even for once slightest chance they have used dimension word interchangeably for universe and in-universe Dimension in the crossover.
Nullvoid called alternate dimension, parallel dimension despite being a in-universe dimension, Dimension 12 called alternate dimension despite being a in-universe Dimension. Parallel world's/Dimensions in the crossover only stand for in-universe dimension. They have not referred to universe for even once.
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Only thing you can do is just calling them pocket dimensions and even then, a single pocket dimension in Ben 10 is infinite in size. Or can just go off assumptions just to downplay the verse. This crt doesn't debunk literally anything, there is no scan but just downplay, literally saying anything that supports 2A is unreliable or wrong.
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Them not having another kind of device has nothing to do with my point here.
The point is, the dimensional disruptors only feat of range is connecting to the Null Void. Why would this mean the other dimensions reside in the universe instead of just being a matter of it not having the range to go to other dimensions?
So you don't have any reasoning to consider these other dimensions, infinite or not, as actual universes?
Is the Null Void used as proof for this?
Why does it need to be specifically mentioned in the crossover?
Generator Rex and Ben 10 are in the same verse, they are canon to each other. If Parallel Worlds is used as a term for timelines in one and then again in another for Rex's world, that applies to them both.
So your assuming that any mentions of dimensions in the crossover, and only the crossover, are only talking about pocket dimensions because of only 2 particular examples?
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