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Ben 10 Cosmology Downgrades & Other Things (Yes, this is happening again)
- Thread starter ProfessorKukui4Life
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- ben 10 ben 10 cosmology
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I actually collected them for my god ya know....the entity who created me.
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Thank you very much for helping out here, @DontTalkDT .
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Yeah. The later statements say that comics overall aren't canon, which doesn't imply that individual comics can't be. I.e. every comic that doesn't have a specific statement about being canon is unusable, but those that have it still are. Even if it came before.
Unless we have a contradictory statement about that particular comic or truly all comics not being canon, of course.
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I still strongly disagree with the universes of Ben 10 being 2-B and with the use of the "Heroes Times Two" and the comics being canon/alternative timelines but if DonTalkDT and the majority feels that it can be coherent, then whatever... i think this may be over now.
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- Thread starter
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Well the comic still being canon or not is one thing, but that doesn’t solve the issue of possible exaggeration that I pointed out before.
Since, you know, Ben made that statement in a rush and he’s not a character that would accurately know how large existence is
Since, you know, Ben made that statement in a rush and he’s not a character that would accurately know how large existence is
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"Comic" is not the only source we had. The very fact that ben and holiday made a same statement that Rex will never be able to meet ben because there are soo many dimensions shows the consistency of the statement in the show. So it's reasonable regardless of how one feels.
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I'm kinda ok with the Ben statement from the comic even finding it non-cannon but whatever if you guys consider it canon here but here's the thing... didn't Kukui already adressed the issue with this Holiday statement? iirc the past few pages of this thread was all about how inconsistent she was at this area (cosmology) because she finded the parellel worlds theory being shaky at the first meeting with Ben.
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in this case, infinite would be used as a hyperbolic way to say "far too many"
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My issue with Bens statement, even if the comic book is canon, is that why do we take it to the literal level when he says “millions”
If someone like Paradox made this statement, that would be one thing.
But Ben isn’t someone with cosmic awareness or has knowledge where he can deduce the totality of how large existence is. “Millions” can be argued as Ben just throwing a large number out there to say, in a exaggerating way, that he meant “lots of dimensions”
Especially since he was in a hurry to run with Rex.
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Kukui only said "holiday maybe wrong as we don't have proof that her statement is credible or not", now that ben is saying the samething who has dealt with dimensions many times. Holiday statement is credible, not for accurate "infinite" maybe but any where near too many.
Good thing my wife shadow chan don't have this issue and she don't take U turns unlike certain someone I know.
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Iirc Ben turned into Alien X two times before the crossover comic (AF and when he tried to use Alien X to fight Agreggor) and Alien X does have Cosmic Awareness, so it's somenthing to think that he maybe is knowledgeable in the area of existence/cosmology just like Paradox. I just say maybe becuz i have my doubs like i don't remember if Ben actually remembers everything accurately what happens in the parallel dimension of Alien X.
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Regardless of it shadow chan, vsbw accepts statements of those characters for cosmological structure who has dealth with cosmological area of the verse, such as Trunks from dragonball. Ben has gone to parallel dimensions many times, has time travelled, dealth with many aspects of reality even the cosmic energy of the universe Mana, not to mention his statement is further supported by doctor holiday. So his statement can be taken unless contradicted.
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And for your answer, no, Alien x and ben aren't same mind but rather ben is just part of his mind, main take of alien X memories, powers and cosmic awareness belongs to serena, bellicus. So even if ben is a part of alien X, alien X having cosmic awareness or omniscience doesn't contribute to ben knowledge or awareness.
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̶O̶h̶ ̶m̶a̶n̶,̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶m̶a̶d̶e̶ ̶m̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶m̶e̶m̶b̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶s̶c̶e̶n̶e̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶U̶l̶t̶i̶m̶a̶t̶r̶i̶x̶'̶s̶ ̶f̶a̶i̶l̶s̶a̶f̶e̶ ̶f̶a̶i̶l̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶C̶h̶a̶r̶m̶c̶a̶s̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶e̶n̶d̶s̶ ̶u̶p̶ ̶k̶i̶l̶l̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶B̶e̶n̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶a̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶m̶a̶n̶a̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶D̶i̶a̶g̶o̶n̶
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While true, I feel like he wouldn't use "millions" if there were only like 50. I would say there should be enough to reach 2-B, even if not that precise number.
Anyways, to finally get to Efficiente's stuff:
I don't quite get all of that. Mostly because I'm not quite sure which evidence it addresses. Is this about the multiverse or about the in-universe dimensions?
So there are statements in the show that imply the in-universe dimensions to actually be outside the universe, contrary to the "Kevin didn't know things outside the universe exists"-idea? That would be a good point. Would like to see the scan of that.
So basically we have to assume Kevin's statement is wrong for the dimensions to be outside the universe, yes?
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This is the statement he is talking about, that all the criminals are sent or banished to nullvoid from the universe itself or more so, it's talking about all the criminals from the universe are sent to nullvoid. This statement doesn't really contradict the notion of nullvoid being inside universe, all the criminals from a town can be banished to a particular place, it doesn't have to be outside neither must have to be inside, also another example is that "if you're collecting all the papers or dust from the entire house in the corner" doesn't mean the corner is outside or must be outside, these like statements aren't contradiction. Also, This statement came before the establishment of multiverse as well. Kevin who has spent half of his life in the nullvoid already said that universe is everything later on after multiverse was established. Trio (ben, gwen, kevin) were all unaware of anything outside the universe neither have travelled outside before the events of forge of creation (the episode in which multiverse was established).
Further more later in the omniverse, servantis (one of most knowledgeable being in the galaxy) said that "no one in this universe or any other will bring ben tennyson back ever", while still being inside the nullvoid, he obviously referred Ben's dimension + null void combined as universe as Nullvoid hasn't been referred as another universe or treated as another universe ever by any character ever, neither it's something a lore will do as it'll be idiotic for those who actually know how nullvoid has been treated in the show (pocket dimension, jail, etc) but efi saying "even if it's first time, they did".
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Yes and another assumption would be that nullvoid is treated as another universe aside from Ben's dimension in the show just so that single statement of servantis can be eliminated as the source of nullvoid being inside universe.
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this clip doesn't even contradict much, since the term "universe" can mean two things depending on context, either the totality of the universe with all of its dimensions(ledgerdomain, the upchuck stomach dimension etc) or just the main part where ben and co live, it depends on context, and in the context of the video above it is talking about the main part called "universe" while in other moments of the show(like the the servantis moment pointed by reiner) it is talking about the universe in its totality(with all the dimensions that are inside of it)
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That reminds me universe in ben 10 consist of known universe (which already includes many dimensions such as Ben's dimension, Anur phaetous, trans spatial bladder dimension, Dimension12) and unknown universe and nullvoid explicitly stated to be outside known universe after establishment of multiverse
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Since the upgrades we have always been
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- Thread starter
- #704
I mean yeah, but Ben at this point in the series didn’t have control over Alien Xs powers since Serena and Bellicus have to agree on letting Ben use them.
I think it’s a big too much speculation on thinking Ben would’ve had access to AXs cosmic awareness during moments where his control over Alien X at that time in the series was next to nonexistent.
Uh, dont paint this picture please. There were much more reasons than simply this as to why I argued Holidays statement isn’t credible than just “maybe”.
This is not exactly a good comparison with this situation with Ben.
Trunks comments on Dragon Balls cosmology (which gets verified further on in Super anyway) isn’t giving a specified number of how many dimensions and universes the verse has. His comments are on how timelines and time travel works, which gets proven by the fact him time traveling to the last didn’t do anything to change his own timelines future. His comments strictly about the Many Worlds Interpretation theory with different choices producing a new timeline, which is automatically 2-B.
Bens situation is different because his statement is giving a specific number of dimensions that we are taking literally. To take this literally would mean we acknowledge Ben has the knowledge and means to accurately put into number how large existence is, which is something I have a problem with from his character.
And all of this just shows Ben knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that parallel worlds exist. Doesn’t necessarily have to mean he knows how big existence is on a particular scale.
And this is without mentioning that a lot of this happens in Omniverse where parallel world traveling is done a lot more in the franchise than around the time he made this comment.
2 wrongs don’t make a right by default.
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Yea, at the point of Ultimate Alien which was when this crossover comic happened alongside with the crossover episode, Ben still wasn't fully knowledgeable in the fully extension of the cosmology like Paradox and didn't had the control of Alien X at the moment since he only gains it in the Servantis arc in Omniverse (besides the cosmic awareness power comes from Serena and Belicus). So this Alien X/Ben cosmic awareness can be disregarded.
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you would need to prove them wrong first before using this as an argument
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It replies to this blog, which was on the OP and is linked in Aliex X's profile.
"In UA, Paradox takes the gang to "the space beyond" "the universe." In this scene, they only show us two universes depicted as clusters in the black void within the overall timestream. You can consider this the "space between universes" in the present tense.
We are given more context to this "space beyond" universes in OV. After the CTB goes off, Paradox takes Ben to the same space beyond. Here we see numerous clusters. Now, we are given clarity on what each cluster represents. Each cluster represents a universe, and those clusters are destroyed, bringing us to the same black void within the overall timestream as before.
If the CTB only destroyed the Ben-Earth space times, then the other dimensions (Null, Legerdomain, etc.) should have remained in their place as their clusters in the black void, but that is not the case.
Each blue cluster represents a different universe timeline branch which, in turn, is a collection of dimensions that make up that universe. We only see clusters, not lines, since they are depicted in the present tense."
And I say "I see no reason to believe the Space Beyond contains any & all kinds of realities rather than universes similar to Ben's own universe; If it has all "Branch Universe Clusters" then this only tells us that that's where you can see branches of the universe, weird dimensions w/o regular space, stars, planet Earth and the human race aren't branches of the universe, that would only refer to alt./parallel universes that all come from a same og universe ("og" as in since ancient times og, not the og series).
When the universe clusters get detroyed and only No Watch Ben's universe cluster remains it doesn't mean that each universe has other dimensions, but that they were not targeted.
The idea of ignoring how Rex's universe is a universe because that's from his show and not said is the crossover when both are canon to each other doesn't make any level of sense at all, it's a universe, it doesn't have a Ben with a watch, wanna know why? Because both separated shows do their own things and that can create inconsistencies, the short version is just "it's an inconsistency"."
"In-universe" is a made up term not in the first of all. Ben's universe has been referred as a dimension, many statements refers to this realities as not being the same dimension, therefore that shows they're not the same universe.
You have things like this in the OP; "Azmuth says Dagon enslaved 100 dimensions and seeks to enslave ours. He then says that if he gains a foothold in this dimension, then the universe falls. Azmuth uses dimension and universe interchangeably to describe the prime universe.
Here Gwen calls Dagon's universe a dimension, yet here Dagon calls his dimension a universe and reinforces the idea that the prime universe isn’t connected to his because he has no control over it yet."
"Dagon then calls the universe a "dimension" again.
Vilgax describes the prime universe and Dagon's dimension as "universes"."
There is this statement saying that the Null Void "is not part of the time stream".
"Basically" yes. I already said how he's not necessarily wrong, and if he were to not be wrong it would only refer to the 1 dimension he knows. 2 dimensions if you count Dimension 12, but even then being told that there are other alt. universes and replying that one thought the universe was everything can just refer to how he didn't imagine there would be alt. universes like the one where he lives, not that there aren't many types of weird realities, like the ones he knows. It's perfectly logical.
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Why dagon's universes brought up? Which crt of mine argued that Dagon's universes are inside prime universe dude? Dagon's dimensions were universes, they won't be inside universe. Dimensions in fiction can refers to many things. It's all on the context.
Funny how a art director statement you are using just contradicted that nullvoid was created by Galvans in this same statement, a guide book statement and show statement already proves that nullvoid was created by Galvans, shows the credibility of the statement you are using. And the very fact that each timeline that is branched off from prime universe has its own nullvoid... It's outside of timestream?
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Again, you have previously claimed that the different parallel dimensions (Null Void, Legerdomain, Dagon, etc.) are neither inside the Space Beyond, nor outside the Space Beyond. You can't have both. What justification are you basing it on?
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We also don't use outside statements without support from the primary source.Funny how a art director statement you are using just contradicted that nullvoid was created by Galvans in this same statement, a guide book statement and show statement, shows the credibility of the statement you are using. And the very fact that each timeline that is branched off from prime universe has its own nullvoid... It's outside of timestream?
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I know but even when he is using something, he should atleast check if the WOG he is using is contradicted or not. Everything he just brought up were Zamasu's left arguments and this WOG is already contradicted by the show.
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Funny tho ,how many times you have disregarded his statements for being an art director. This statement is blatantly false because it directly contradicts the show.
Use better arguments rather than saying them "technical inconsistencies".
The CTB targets every timeline except one and not just Ben-Earth space-time. Every universe has their own version of Null void, ledgerdomain etc. This alternate timeline universe has their own version of Null void and Ledgerdomain ( considering alternate timeline universe gwen has a different set of charms of bezel )
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̶J̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶s̶a̶y̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶w̶a̶n̶n̶a̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶B̶e̶n̶ ̶1̶0̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶D̶r̶a̶g̶o̶n̶ ̶B̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶c̶r̶o̶s̶s̶o̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶m̶a̶n̶,̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶r̶e̶f̶e̶r̶e̶n̶c̶e̶s̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶p̶r̶e̶t̶t̶y̶ ̶c̶l̶e̶a̶r̶.̶
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A very clear logic than any or most that legerdemain is a part of timeline besides the direct statement from gwen (searched the entire universe that includes ledger domain) and Kevin (universe is everything) is that every single timeline has its own Version of charmcaster, a species whose home world is explicitly Ledgerdomain (which has only lakhs of population not much). . If there is just single Ledgerdomain for all universes, then Ledgerdomain has been filled with millions of charmcasters something that has never been implied in the show and had millions of father's in the same Dimension. Bruh it's cringe. Every universe has it's own Ledgerdomain from which all Mana flows in the entire universe.
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Me: After checking this Thread has reached 8 pages...
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Ok then for that.
Proof that they created it?
You say that like it proves anything, why can't the Nullvoid branch off too like the universe, while being outside the universe.And the very fact that each timeline that is branched off from prime universe has its own nullvoid... It's outside of timestream?
The place doesn't show them. Its mechanics only make it show universes like the main universe where Ben lives. I don't claim objectively that they're outside or inside, we don't know where they are, just that they're not shown there.
It's another/alt. dimension, on its own that already implies it to be outside the universe. Further than that the series doesn't mind to call the universe a dimension, which further sets another/alt. dimensions as not being in the same place.
You are probably confusing me with someone else.
Being good enough to be a contradiction is good, we can see what's most consistent at the end.
You just ignored everything and reduced it to a simpler version easier to beat if heard in a vacuum.
Same as I said before, you say that like it proves anything and the Nullvoid & Ledgerdomain can't have alt. versions of themselves just as the universe branches off, all while being outside the universe.
Don't know why you didn't conceive the idea that Ledgerdomain would branch off so that many alt. universes may have their own version of it, while it's still outside the universe, and instead have as an alternative that there is only 1 in the multiverse. Yes, the latter is wrong. I would think you talk about its population as if saying "every decision/random decisions made by beings create branches", as if that was a hard rule and branches couldn't be made in which realities are 100% the same, because if so that's not a rule, that's just the thing that's followed to watch the entertainment that is a reality with some decisions not being the same.
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Alright. It is an error, but it seems like a reasonably forgettable trivia that they created it next to say that it just exists & thus no one made it. Considering its positioning is talked about every time they go "it's another dimension", "it's an alt. dimension", etc.
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