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Ben 10 - At least 2-B, Possibly 2-A Universe Structure Proposal
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wait why chrono navigator, wasn't it going to affect the multiverse overtime
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It'll, there is a need to add possibly 2a even in there.
Just waiting for someone to unlock the profiles, firestorm will handle revisions and edits as per his blog update.
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wait, let me guess, the vsbw rules that don't make sense? those rules always destroy the idea of ''higher dimension'' and make something that should be ''higher dimension'' just another normal dimension, even though it's not it makes sense for it to be so.
seriosly,why that rule is even allow to exist,is breaks almost everything that has to with higher dimensions,higher dimensions are higher dimensions,left them has such
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Not really, "there needs to be an infinite gap between dimensions" to warrant a higher tier is a good rule
Even without the higher tier, higher dimensions can still give invulnerability and other good hax
Anyways, this is about ben 10, not the wikia rules
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Well obviously he does, the most powerful being in that show is basically a child and less experienced compared to X.
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Aight, let’s wait for firestorm to sort out the revisions and get this thread closedNo more unnecessary talks, this thread has been concluded everyone can stop now
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Since this thread is about cosmology, I'll close this thread. Tier revisions will be happening in a different thread.
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@Firestorm808 @Zamasu_Chan @Antvasima @Aachintya31 @Greenshifter @DemonicDude
It'll continue from here. Also no derailing from the Topic and for everyone please refrain commenting anything unnecessary. This crt already includes those accepted topics which zamasu crt tried to cover and I've updated this CRT as per staff agreements and disagreements in total. Refutes for this accepted and previously accepted CRT'S can be given from here on.
Topic: cosmology structure (more specifically universe)
It'll continue from here. Also no derailing from the Topic and for everyone please refrain commenting anything unnecessary. This crt already includes those accepted topics which zamasu crt tried to cover and I've updated this CRT as per staff agreements and disagreements in total. Refutes for this accepted and previously accepted CRT'S can be given from here on.
Topic: cosmology structure (more specifically universe)
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Anyway, I’d like to mention that Ben made the same mistake as Kevin. He said the universe is everything they he knows and everything there is. Ben has been outside the universe so he’s clearly wrong.
Both Ben and Kevin are wrong so how do their statements have any form of credibility?
Both Ben and Kevin are wrong so how do their statements have any form of credibility?
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Had seen through this argument, bruh. Regardless of a genetic fallacy, you need to prove that Kevin made a mistake rather to find someone else mistakes and try discrediting all through it. It has many arguments as well:-
1-Ben wasn't cool at that time and was completely in rush, unlike Kevin. I remember many characters saying “earth” is everything, doesn't mean a thing.
2-The difference is about the context, ben said the universe is everything in terms of “his own universe,” which means everything to him, just like our house means everything to us. He wasn't specific about the “multiverse,” unlike Kevin, who was specific about the “multiverse” and the existence of other universes as something entirely new.
3- Fr just look at the UA series. Dimension 12 is far easier to access for even earthlings like nemesis and trio had quite a good time dealing with it and were aware, and knowledgeable of it already, which makes it far less credible to think that Kevin will make a mistake on it.
If we are done with proving Ben was wrong, can we proceed with why Kevin was wrong? Or are there many more statements left that were wrong which gonna be used to prove that Kevin was wrong?
“Both Ben and Kevin were wrong”
Seems like an association fallacy as well.
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There are just 3 types of dimensions in Ben 10 “shown”:-
1- “in-universe dimensions.”
2- “separate universes as dimensions.”
3- “axiomatic dimensions.”
There aren't a lot of options to pick from. What has been suggested btw 3 will be applied. Dimension 12 has no evidence to be a separate universe but has a lot of reasons and evidence to be considered an “in-universe” dimension. In fact, way more evidence than the hyperbolic time chamber had at that time to be considered an in-universe dimension in Dragonball.
1- “in-universe dimensions.”
2- “separate universes as dimensions.”
3- “axiomatic dimensions.”
There aren't a lot of options to pick from. What has been suggested btw 3 will be applied. Dimension 12 has no evidence to be a separate universe but has a lot of reasons and evidence to be considered an “in-universe” dimension. In fact, way more evidence than the hyperbolic time chamber had at that time to be considered an in-universe dimension in Dragonball.
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Giving Kevin the benefit of the doubt, why do infinite dimensions apply to the universe. Is there proof that Kevin knows about these dimensions? Even taking his statement literally, that’d only mean dimension 12 and Ledgerdomain are part of the universe.
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Nice, we can proceed from dimension 12 at last. Look at the CRTs, which statements have been used to prove what, and I am not giving anyone any kind of tag or doubt. I am merely putting dimensions as per what has been suggested. Not many options there are. Regardless proceed.
Kevin's nose went to some kind of dimension. Trans spatial bladder dimension and whatnot are also part of the universe, though.
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How would he know it’s part of the universe and not another one? Just because Kevin is aware of other dimensions doesn’t mean they’re automatically part of the universe. It could be another universe or timeline and Kevin would think it’s part of the primary universe.
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Said dimensional split/displacement that occurs due to sundur's axe was shown to send things in different “in-universe dimensions”, Kevin suggested that his nose went to different dimension through same kind of phenomenon occurs btw the interaction of sundur's axe and Ben's hand, not to mention that Kevin managed to pull them back from their dimensions, was quite knowledgeable about these dimensions to pull off such a device, also episode is only shown to deal with“in-universe” dimensions, so other not so popular dimensions mentioned will be deducted to be same unless proven otherwise, no reason to deduct it to be seprate universe, not when we know that multiverse do not even exist/established yet. And later on Kevin statement that “universe is everything” is more of confirmation despite everything. Merely putting dimensions as what has been suggested and using deductive reasoning and Sagan standard bro.
Have you got any Base for it to be a arguement of seprate universe? To consider the "maybe" you are asserting, if yes then please proceed.
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Also if we can proceed with why Kevin is wrong?
Professor paradox made it pretty clear by saying there is always far more to the reality than we imagine, in response to Universe is everything which makes it pretty clear that he is saying Universe is everything upto what Kevin's has seen but there is more than that reality in terms of the multiverse. So all of reality that Kevin was aware of is universe as per context and what paradox said.
Professor paradox made it pretty clear by saying there is always far more to the reality than we imagine, in response to Universe is everything which makes it pretty clear that he is saying Universe is everything upto what Kevin's has seen but there is more than that reality in terms of the multiverse. So all of reality that Kevin was aware of is universe as per context and what paradox said.
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What I'm asking for is proof that Kevin knows there are infinite dimensions before Paradox showed him another universe. In chronological order Paradox shows us another universe, then we get the infinite and millions of dimensions statement. You have to prove that Kevin knew of these dimensions prior to Paradox showing him a potential multiverse. Even so, "dimension'" is a very loose term.
Dimensions
Ben's 23rd dimension reachable through "dimension" travel and is reinforced to be a dimension showing it's not an alternate timeline. It's even called a universe as well.Paradox calls NW Ben's timeline a universe. He then goes on to say there are many Ben Tennysons across those dimensions and later refers to them as branching timelines. In the same instance he uses "universe" "dimension" and "timeline" interchangeably.
Rex's universe is called a parallel world twice and Paradox confirms cross-time/timelines are parallel worlds.
Azmuth says Dagon enslaved 100 dimensions and seeks to enslave ours. He then says that if he gains a foothold in this dimension, then the universe falls. Azmuth uses dimension and universe interchangeably to describe the prime universe.
Here Gwen calls Dagon's universe a dimension, yet here Dagon calls his dimension a universe and reinforces the idea that the prime universe isn’t connected to his because he has no control over it yet.
"The ruination of this universe" is more evidence that both worlds are different despite being one dimension.
Dagon then calls the universe a "dimension" again.
Vilgax describes the prime universe and Dagon's dimension as "universes".
As you can see, dimension, universe, and timeline have loose meanings and can all mean the same thing. Even Rook calls the timeless white space a dimension. It takes a huge leap in logic to assume that all dimensions exist in one universe just because they're called dimensions. Even taking Kevin's statement into account, it's contradicted. The prime universe is called a single dimension more than once so the idea that the universe is made of multiple space-times is invalid. This is especially apparent when the universe was created it's not shown as a collection of dimensions but a collection of stars and galaxies like a regular universe.
Other gripes
Null void
The Null Void is a pocket dimension and criminals are said to be banished "from the universe itself", which shows it's not part of the universe. Pocket dimensions can exist in the universe but aren’t connected to them, so destroying the universe wouldn't automatically mean the pocket dimension is destroyed as well. As a pocket dimension, there's no 5D axis so it wouldn’t be 2-C regardless."Infinite" Dimensions
I don't agree with using Dr Holiday as a reliable source. When Ben mentions the idea of parallel worlds, she shoots him down saying that it's just a theory, a shaky one too. She's suddenly aware that there are infinite dimensions. If she doubted the idea of another universe even existing, why are we taking her word as fact when she says there are infinite? At least when Ben say's there are millions of dimensions, it fits with the Paradox's Ad infinitum statement.See what i mean now?
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As usual, agreeing with Zamasu. And that clip on Holiday finding the existence of an alternate world even existing, let alone an infinite number of worlds existing, to be a shaky theory hammers in the point even more that she simply isn’t a reliable source to take information from as far as the cosmology.
So even if Generator Rex and Ben 10 being canon with their crossover is acceptable under crossover rules, Holidays infinite dimension statement shouldn’t be acceptable at all.
So even if Generator Rex and Ben 10 being canon with their crossover is acceptable under crossover rules, Holidays infinite dimension statement shouldn’t be acceptable at all.
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I didn't said Kevin knew about infinite dimensions ever, neither I used his Statement to prove so, you are arguing someone else I suppose.
All of this, just why? I don't even find it relevant to anything I tried to prove.
Never said "dimensions" only means they are the part of the universe, I don't know what are you talking about seriously.
"From the universe itself"
My police officer of the town says normally "all the criminals from my area will be sent to jail" that jail is also in the area man. Wtf does it mean to even mention?
Has been discussed before over the reliability of her statement, so Doesn't matter.
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Something being discussed before doesn’t grant it immunity from being talked about again.
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I didn't said it grant, I said there will always be a right time for something, current topic is Kevin statement we first done over with it. I don't need to mention what happens when we try to cover all topics with every post. Hope atleast this is acceptable?
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Hope everyone will stay with the current topics and don't try to jump over. Whatever topic one wants to cover, a right time will come for that after being done with current and later few topics.
refute Claim: Kevin was wrong.
proof: coming soon.
refute Claim: Kevin was wrong.
proof: coming soon.
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Will Reply more later.
No one said that Kevin knew about infinite dimensions prior to the Aggregor Arc. It's not even relevant to the initial argument. The argument is that these Non-Ben Earth dimensions make up the "The Universe."
Dimensional Travel is the generic term for Inter-Dimension or Inter-Universe Travel. Alternate timelines are still parallel dimensions and branch universes.
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Then what's your reason for assuming the universe is made of infinite dimensions?
All of what I wrote is to show you the term "dimension" can mean anything and assuming a spacetime is part of the universe because it's called a dimension is false.
You said: "There is no reason to assume they are referring to outside universe dimensions or another universe as its headcanon. All the dimensions involved in the crossover are "in-universe" dimensions, and they have no way to travel outside of universes."
You also said: "Dimensional disruptor whose functioning is same as nullvoid projector can connect Rex dimension to nullvoid or Ben's dimension by " creating a spacetime rift . Nullvoid gun cannot be used to connect universes or any device in knowledge of Kevin or devices with nearly same functioning as of nullvoid shouldn't be able to do that, as Kevin was not aware of the other universes despite his great knowledge in techs, he was even shown to be aware of map of infinity proves it further."
You assert a null void projector can't be used to "connect to universes" because it just can't. Do you even know how spacetime rifts work? It creates a portal from one dimension to the next via spacetime travel. News flash buddy, you can use spacetime travel to travel to other universes and timelines because they're also, ya know, space times. This in no way shape or form proves that Rex's universe and Ben's universe are the same.
This isn’t a refute, you're just showing me you don't understand how pocket dimensions work.
It doesn’t deny the fact that you're still wrong.
I find it bogus that this is all it takes to make a single universe 2-A, yet not a dingle staff member questions it.
"Non earth" Rex's universe has an earth and look at the context here. "But there are millions of dimensions. how did they find this earth?" It's implied that each of these millions of dimensions have their own earth so what do you mean?
It's still called a dimension and a universe, yet you assume they're all in one universe because "dimensions". Make it make sense.
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Literally read the threads, will ya?
Care to point out where I said that dimensions by default means they are the part of the universe? In debate with you over Kevin's statement.
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I quoted you later in my post. Read.
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^I don't care about them for the reason I specified 3 times by now. Let the Kevin statement being wrong or right end first.
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Here we are, there is no holiday, no infinite dimensions. Let's proceed
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I said, "Non-Ben Earth." The series shows that all "Ben Earth" Dimensions are part of the same branching tree.
A Universe is the collection of one set of branches from each Dimensional Tree. Each Ben Branch has its respective Null Void, Rex, Legerdomain, and etc. branches for their respective universe set.
Rex and Ben are in the same Universe Branch Parallel set.
The comic says they tracked the Omnitrix, so they went to Ben's Earth. Like Rex's Parallel Dimension Tree, there are other Trees with an Earth, just not with a Ben. So they didn't go there.
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And this is mostly headcannon as I pointed out already, the universes is said to be a single dimension. They use universe and dimension (singular) all the time during the Dagon arc, so you're straight up incorrect.
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Where did you get that impression when I just said the universe is a single dimension?
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