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Bayonetta Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Valiant_Abyss
- Start date
Valiant_Abyss
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Most of these stuff are things that are already covered on her profile or are abilities that don't have their own page on the wiki.
Shuraba description said that the soul seeks out blood. Seeking blood isn't blood manipulation. You're also gonna need to show a scan of Shuraba cutting space as it's description doesn't mention anything of the sort.
You're gonna need clear cut proof that she has straight up elemental immunity and not just super high resistance. The qualifications for immunity are difficult and can't be obtained by a mere visual effect or a statement.
Swords cutting through anything statements are often used as hyperbole. This reasoning is faulty.
Kafka's statement doesn't indicate that it's death manip. It just sounds like a fast and potent poison manip.
Salamandra's description has zero mention of invulnerability whatsoever. All it mentions is "hardest of iron skin."
Earth Manip is legit though. That can be added.
Shuraba description said that the soul seeks out blood. Seeking blood isn't blood manipulation. You're also gonna need to show a scan of Shuraba cutting space as it's description doesn't mention anything of the sort.
You're gonna need clear cut proof that she has straight up elemental immunity and not just super high resistance. The qualifications for immunity are difficult and can't be obtained by a mere visual effect or a statement.
Swords cutting through anything statements are often used as hyperbole. This reasoning is faulty.
Kafka's statement doesn't indicate that it's death manip. It just sounds like a fast and potent poison manip.
Salamandra's description has zero mention of invulnerability whatsoever. All it mentions is "hardest of iron skin."
Earth Manip is legit though. That can be added.
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Shuraba kinda looks like it cuts space, I brought it up before
I’ll sit down and go over the other stuff later tho
I’ll sit down and go over the other stuff later tho
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-1.) I'm simply presenting everything I know regarding her weaponry-hax. If it's new great, if not oh well. But thx for looking it over & I hope it was useful.
-2.) After charging Shuraba to it's 3rd stage, it'll cut all enemies on screen regardless of their distance.
-3.) <Fire Immunity: Equipping Durga Fire on hands or feet will also allow Bayonetta to melee attack Fire Affinities and Ardors with that limb without harming herself in the process and when equipped to the feet it allows her to walk on the shallow molten ground without taking damage.>
<Lightning Immunity: Equipping Durga Lightning on hands and feet will give Bayonetta immunity to electrified water from Chapter 12 and also to the arcs of lightning that travel along the floor created by Grace and Gracious.>
-4.) Bayonetta's guns are the only thing seen to remotely hinder Valiance's sword. Meanwhile it cuts everything else; buildings, large bridges, even a whole Insidious in one swing with no problem. Plus, it's scan/bio says the Valiantium Blade can cut through anything in Paradiso &/or Inferno. Items & beings from these two worlds are stronger than those of the human world by leaps and bounds.
-5.) I was referring to the Carnage demons born from Kafka. The corpse of a single Carnage can kill thousands. Death, Disease, or Poison it's all the same. Considering their bodies are made of bacteria & their name being Reveler of Plagues I think Disease Manipulation is more than fitting.
-6.) You are aware that their are many different types & means of Invulnerability right? Having metal-like skin is one of them. Luke Cage-(Marvel Comics) is a perfect example of this. I'm implying that Salamandra negates this SPECIFIC form of invulnerability.
-7.) Thank you.
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Luke Cage doesn’t have Invulnerability on this site.
Valiant_Abyss
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These are the listed guidelines for giving immunity taken straight from the wiki resistance page:
"Of course, simple resistance to one showing of an ability isn't enough to ignore all uses of that ability, as some applications may be far stronger, while others may work differently, meaning they must be resisted differently. As a result, when resistance is listed on a page, it's important to describe the specifics.
Qualifying for Immunity is difficult, as no simple show of resistance is enough, and statements could easily be hyperbole or only apply in-verse. Immunity should only be given when the user in question entirely lacks what would normally be affected. An inorganic being, for example, has no biological components to manipulate, and an entity without a soul won't be harmed by Soul Manipulation."
Bayo is unable to prove that she has immunity instead of just really high level resistance.
Then Valiance simply has a higher striking strength than the durability of everything else that he was met with. When Valiance met something with higher durability (Love is Blue) he was unable to cut it. If anything, Bayo blocking Valiance's sword should be reason to believe that Valiance's sword CAN'T cut through anything.
Death Manip is something entirely different. It's not the same at all. Disease Manipulation is fine.
Luke Cage doesn't have invulnerability. Metal like skin is not invulnerability.
Valiant_Abyss
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lord please. Bayo 3 don't fail me now.
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It's gon be sum shiiiiiiiiiiit!!!!!
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Nothing, as expected.
Valiant_Abyss
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Splatoon 2 released the same year that Bayo 3 was announced. Splatoon 2 got a sequel before Bayo 3 got an update.
Think about that.
Think about that.
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It's gonna be sometime this year, I KNOW IT!!! I just wish I knew which month would be the best to make the announcement.
Valiant_Abyss
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I'd expect to see something at E3 in all honesty.
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I thought the same thing except they haven't done E3 in a good minute. Given the quarantine and now this crazy ass weather, I doubt they'll unveil anything in the summer.
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I just don't wanna have to wait til the game awards in December AGAIN!!
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Why didn't it work for Jeanne?
-All 3 Realms of the Trinity, (and the laws, physics, and transactions between them), were out of balance. Rodin himself says this in the prologue of B2. We find out later that this was all due to the loss of the Right Eye.
-I also wanna point out that there was no visible sign of injury on Jeanne's body after Gomorrah attacked her. None.
-After Enzo's snide remark, Rodin and Bayonetta BOTH said that Jeanne wasn't truly dead. According to Rodin, "You're only really dead after your soul's been completely absorbed into another realm of the Trinity." Rodin also states that the spiritual absorption process takes at least 24 hours.
-Many Infernal Demons have taken advantage of the chaos and imbalance to attack Bayonetta & Jeanne. (Gomorrah betrayed Bayo, Pain attacked Bayonetta and Loki, Insidious consumed Bayo in order to stop her from going to Inferno and saving Jeanne, Demons ambushed Bayo while inside Insidious, etc.) And when Bayonetta wondered why Infernals would even be after her to begin with, Rodin's warning about the Trinity's imbalance was the first thing to enter her mind. With this in mind, it makes sense that the Infernal demons had an opening to break the rules a grab Jeanne before she could truly die a permeant death. She wasn't truly dead, her soul was exposed & the demons made a grab for it!!!
-All 3 Realms of the Trinity, (and the laws, physics, and transactions between them), were out of balance. Rodin himself says this in the prologue of B2. We find out later that this was all due to the loss of the Right Eye.
-I also wanna point out that there was no visible sign of injury on Jeanne's body after Gomorrah attacked her. None.
-After Enzo's snide remark, Rodin and Bayonetta BOTH said that Jeanne wasn't truly dead. According to Rodin, "You're only really dead after your soul's been completely absorbed into another realm of the Trinity." Rodin also states that the spiritual absorption process takes at least 24 hours.
-Many Infernal Demons have taken advantage of the chaos and imbalance to attack Bayonetta & Jeanne. (Gomorrah betrayed Bayo, Pain attacked Bayonetta and Loki, Insidious consumed Bayo in order to stop her from going to Inferno and saving Jeanne, Demons ambushed Bayo while inside Insidious, etc.) And when Bayonetta wondered why Infernals would even be after her to begin with, Rodin's warning about the Trinity's imbalance was the first thing to enter her mind. With this in mind, it makes sense that the Infernal demons had an opening to break the rules a grab Jeanne before she could truly die a permeant death. She wasn't truly dead, her soul was exposed & the demons made a grab for it!!!
Valiant_Abyss
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Because it's literally just a game over screen showing bayo (or whoever you're playing as). You'd need some context or statement proving that its a literal cutscene of bayo returning from the dead.
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I mean theres a ton of scenes where they show bayo pulling her soul back into her body and the fact that the second bayo freed Jeanne's soul from alraune she immediately returned to her body
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Well the game over screens do essentially function as a resurrection to some degree, since it’s not constant for each character. Bayonetta, Jeanne, and Rose get dragged to inferno because they have a contract. Rodin doesn’t have a “Game over” cutscene because he doesn’t belong in inferno nor paradiso. Balders game over is him being resurrected in Paradiso, you could say it has strong lore ties.. but I’m not sure if something like that would even get accepted
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Plus it's not just the playable characters. There's one for Loki & even one for Cheshire.
-Rodin's explanation of the Imbalance of power in the Trinity & the Importance and power of the Umbra Hearts makes my Self-Resurrection suggestion more than acceptable.
-Also Bayo can Time Travel.
-"The Shadow remains cast!" Sounds like a significant enough quote to make. It's literally a quote made JUST FOR THIS ONE mechanic. So, in accordance with your logic, it should count. Especially if it takes 24 hours for an Umbra Witches' death to become permeant.
-Rodin's explanation of the Imbalance of power in the Trinity & the Importance and power of the Umbra Hearts makes my Self-Resurrection suggestion more than acceptable.
-Also Bayo can Time Travel.
-"The Shadow remains cast!" Sounds like a significant enough quote to make. It's literally a quote made JUST FOR THIS ONE mechanic. So, in accordance with your logic, it should count. Especially if it takes 24 hours for an Umbra Witches' death to become permeant.
My thoughts exactly!!!
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Hence me asking what else I would need to function as further proof. I know I have a strong argument, with a few holes I can accept, but what would be the final nail?
Also side question, @Comicgyal are you Cerezaseye on Imgur? If you are, MAD RESPECT!!!!!! I see you pulling receipts. And you know what? I'M HERE FOR IT!!!
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My whole thing is,
-if it takes an Umbra Witch 24 hours to die a permeant death,
-their Umbra Hearts provide limitless vitally,-"The magic in these things have kept your kind alive in this world for eternities."
-and keep their bodies intact, whole, & stable for 24 hours regardless of past events, -(Like gettin' chewed up by a giant fcking demon dragon)
-they can be instantly revived once their souls and Umbra Watches make contact/ or are in contact upon initial "death",
-And the (WHaO) /"game-over" mechanic perfectly reflects this, EVEN going so far as to demonstrate what happens when the contract is broken should you refuse to continue, why the hell is my idea Unacceptable???
@Crimson_Shadow101, you said I need context & or a quote to prove this mechanic right? The mechanic changes between playable characters & npcs, can the usual or "Failure" or "Mission Failed", and if YES is picked, the Umbran Elder will always yell out, "The Shadow Remains Cast!!" The mechanic itself changes with the context of the story & it even has it's a quote from a Canonical character.
-if it takes an Umbra Witch 24 hours to die a permeant death,
-their Umbra Hearts provide limitless vitally,-"The magic in these things have kept your kind alive in this world for eternities."
-and keep their bodies intact, whole, & stable for 24 hours regardless of past events, -(Like gettin' chewed up by a giant fcking demon dragon)
-they can be instantly revived once their souls and Umbra Watches make contact/ or are in contact upon initial "death",
-And the (WHaO) /"game-over" mechanic perfectly reflects this, EVEN going so far as to demonstrate what happens when the contract is broken should you refuse to continue, why the hell is my idea Unacceptable???
@Crimson_Shadow101, you said I need context & or a quote to prove this mechanic right? The mechanic changes between playable characters & npcs, can the usual or "Failure" or "Mission Failed", and if YES is picked, the Umbran Elder will always yell out, "The Shadow Remains Cast!!" The mechanic itself changes with the context of the story & it even has it's a quote from a Canonical character.
Valiant_Abyss
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Scans please? Jeanne also didn't immediately return to her body, she woke up from a brief moment of being unconscious and had a full on conversation with Bayo before Bayo told her to go back to her own body and then we see her float away in the air.
- Enough with the trinity imbalance, that's entirely irrelevant to the topic of resurrection. When witches "die" or their soul is separated from their body they're immediately dragged to inferno. That's the way their contracts work and have been constantly described as such. The only thing the trinity balance discussions were addressing was infernal demons going wild and attacking witches, which they aren't supposed to do. Bayo even notes this midgame.
- Please explain how time travel relates to resurrection.
- What is this quote even supposed to mean? A quote being programed for a specific mechanic means nothing if it doesn't say anything of significance. You haven't even explained what the shadow remaining cast is supposed to mean. All you've said is that it sounds significant to make despite it making no mention of the topic of resurrection.
These are inferences.
Your argument for self resurrection is based on a game over screen with a dead body, a quote bearing no mention of resurrection from a minor character who appeared for a few seconds in the first game alone, and unrelated conversations with Rodin. Your final nail would be a statement or a visual clearly pointing out that Bayo is literally resurrecting from the game over screen, which you do not have. All you've shown so far is stretched quotes with several holes filled by inferences.
That's called immortality type 1.
It doesn't keep their bodies intact. Bayo can still be squashed and splattered.
You might be able to get resurrection out of this, but I have zero doubts that if it does get accepted it'll be limited and non-combat applicable.
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Yes I am cerezaseye
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@Crimson_Shadow101
1.) "The Shadow Remains Cast"
-The Umbra Witches represent darkness. That's literally the FIRST thing we learn about them.
-Remains Definition: (Continue to exist, especially after other similar or related people or things have ceased to exist. | Stay in the place that one has been occupying. | Continue to possess a particular quality or fulfill a particular role.)
Basically; "The shadow remains cast."="The Witch remains with the living/lives on."
2.) The Umbran Elder doesn't get alotta screen-time but the old bat is anything but minor. She held A Lot of power! SHE RAN THE UMBRA WITCH CLAN!!! She's the whole reason Bayo remained with the Umbra anyway.
3.) Yes, dead witches get dragged to Hell-(per Rodin's quote), but it takes 24 hours for a witch to truly die-(also per Rodin's quote). Therefore it takes 24 hours before the demons can grab a witch and drag em down. A witches soul being exposed or separated from the body isn't enough otherwise the demons would have snatched Bayonetta during the Out-Of-Body-Experience when fought to save & protect Cereza during the first game.
4.) Time Reset is a form of Immortality undoes all physical damage, Subaru Natsuki being a perfect example. (Ironic asf that I'm bringing him up here.) The Umbra Watches also provide the power of time travel, & considering that you end up back moments before your last death-(should you pick yes during a game over) full health restored, it matches up.
5.) The Imbalance of the Trinity has EVERYTHING to do with this topic & Jeanne's death. When an Umbra Witch dies, the contract is broken & they're dragged to Inferno, BUT Jeanne WASN'T DEAD despite everything that hadn't to her. MY POINT: The demons aren't supposed to drag her down until her 24 hours are up. They attacked her, breaking the rules (LIKE YOU SAID EARLIER), and dragged her to Hell prematurely, completely taking advantage of the imbalance of powers. Bayonetta's summoning wasn't supposed to go wrong either, which only furthers my point as it's another thing that's not supposed to happen.
-"No! This isn't how things end!!!"-Jeanne while being dragged to Inferno prematurely."
-"You're only really dead after your souls been completely absorbed INTO another realm of the trinity."-Rodin.
6.) Bayonetta can be squashed by the Golem and regenerate so...
7.) "Should keep her body in this world stable, but you're gonna have to reunite this with her soul if you gon try and bring her back."-Rodin.
1.) "The Shadow Remains Cast"
-The Umbra Witches represent darkness. That's literally the FIRST thing we learn about them.
-Remains Definition: (Continue to exist, especially after other similar or related people or things have ceased to exist. | Stay in the place that one has been occupying. | Continue to possess a particular quality or fulfill a particular role.)
Basically; "The shadow remains cast."="The Witch remains with the living/lives on."
2.) The Umbran Elder doesn't get alotta screen-time but the old bat is anything but minor. She held A Lot of power! SHE RAN THE UMBRA WITCH CLAN!!! She's the whole reason Bayo remained with the Umbra anyway.
3.) Yes, dead witches get dragged to Hell-(per Rodin's quote), but it takes 24 hours for a witch to truly die-(also per Rodin's quote). Therefore it takes 24 hours before the demons can grab a witch and drag em down. A witches soul being exposed or separated from the body isn't enough otherwise the demons would have snatched Bayonetta during the Out-Of-Body-Experience when fought to save & protect Cereza during the first game.
4.) Time Reset is a form of Immortality undoes all physical damage, Subaru Natsuki being a perfect example. (Ironic asf that I'm bringing him up here.) The Umbra Watches also provide the power of time travel, & considering that you end up back moments before your last death-(should you pick yes during a game over) full health restored, it matches up.
5.) The Imbalance of the Trinity has EVERYTHING to do with this topic & Jeanne's death. When an Umbra Witch dies, the contract is broken & they're dragged to Inferno, BUT Jeanne WASN'T DEAD despite everything that hadn't to her. MY POINT: The demons aren't supposed to drag her down until her 24 hours are up. They attacked her, breaking the rules (LIKE YOU SAID EARLIER), and dragged her to Hell prematurely, completely taking advantage of the imbalance of powers. Bayonetta's summoning wasn't supposed to go wrong either, which only furthers my point as it's another thing that's not supposed to happen.
-"No! This isn't how things end!!!"-Jeanne while being dragged to Inferno prematurely."
-"You're only really dead after your souls been completely absorbed INTO another realm of the trinity."-Rodin.
6.) Bayonetta can be squashed by the Golem and regenerate so...
7.) "Should keep her body in this world stable, but you're gonna have to reunite this with her soul if you gon try and bring her back."-Rodin.
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Does anyone have a pdf of the Bayonetta 1 &/or 2 infobook/artbook? I'm trying to compile receipts. Any help @Comicgyal pleaaaaase?
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Minaj does make a good point with #3, it takes 24 hours for a witch to be fully absorbed into the trinity. I’m guessing that’s when their souls are bound to the place, however just knocking their souls out / killing them doesn’t mean it’ll instantly happen. It’s hard to say though, in Jeannes case it happened about a second after her soul was knocked out.
Bayo 2 artbook
drive.google.com
Bayo 1 artbook, they were hand taken by a friend of mine tho
Eyes Of Bayonetta - Google Drive
drive.google.com
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And the demons were only able to do that because of the Imbalance of the powers of the Trinity. It's why the demons were able to betray them in the 1st place.Minaj does make a good point with #3, it takes 24 hours for a witch to be fully absorbed into the trinity. I’m guessing that’s when their souls are bound to the place, however just knocking their souls out / killing them doesn’t mean it’ll instantly happen. It’s hard to say though, in Jeannes case it happened about a second after her soul was knocked out.
Bayo 2 artbook
Bayo 1 artbook, they were hand taken by a friend of mine thoEyes Of Bayonetta - Google Drive
-"Why would Infernals be after me?"-Bayonetta
\"Something's up. The balance of powers that keeps things in check don't feel right. Does it?"-Rodin's warning in Bayo's flashback.
-"At least some of you are keeping your part of the contract. Let's do this."-Bayonetta before fist-bumping Madama Butterfly & fighting Pain.
The contract is broken when a witch dies, or becomes unable to hunt angels. We know the Umbra can fight as souls in Bayo-1 and Jeanne's body was perfectly fine, even her clothes were intact. I just rewatched the scene of Jeanne's "death" and 2 things:
-1: There was no blood not even flower petals. We even see in the Gates of Hell that her body was completely unblemished.
-2: Both Bayonetta and Rodin said that Jeanne WASN'T DEAD. Her soul getting knocked out gave the demons an opening. It wasn't her time yet. A body can't function without a soul hence why hers looked the way it did.
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@Comicgyal Thx!!!!
Valiant_Abyss
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You have a vague voice line from a dead character. Congrats. You still have yet to prove how this means that pressing continue on the game over screen = Bayo literally being resurrected. Especially considering the game itself treats pressing continue as placing you at your last checkpoint, which is a common continue mechanic for gameplay features.
If Bayo plopped up from the ground in the exact place she died in this would be a completely different story. However this is NOT the case. Pressing the continue button from the game over screen merely causes a vague voice line to occur and then you appear at your last checkpoint. This is an incredibly common game over mechanic in video games and there definitely has not been enough evidence shown by you to prove that the game over screen = resurrection.
??? Where in the world did you get "takes 24 hours before demons can grab a witch" from?? What indicates that the form Bayo has in OOBE is her literal soul and not just some kind of Astral Form? She appears as a crystal clear silhouette similar to how we see angels before Bayo enters Purgatorio. This is notably different from Jeanne's pink silhouette.
I truly am amazed how you took Rodin's statement of being officially dead when your soul is in another realm for 24 hours as translating to "it takes 24 hours before demons can grab a witch and drag." Because that's one hell of a stretch. Notice how Rodin's tone the entire conversation indicates that the action of Jeanne being dragged down was completely normal, to which Bayo responds "I didn't ask you to tell me what I already know."
Literally nothing from anyone indicates that Jeanne being dragged down immediately was an abnormal action.
Except... no witch has ever used time travel as a form of resurrection? When you end up back at your last check point, there is literally zero indication that you somehow used time travel to go back to the last checkpoint before you die, so why assume that you did especially considering we've seen no witch ever use this?
The way you stretch these things is honestly quite hilarious.
Note how literally every time the trinity imbalance is brought up, they specifically refer to summons going wild. Rodin treats Jeanne being dragged as completely normal, to which Bayo replies that she's aware. The only time trinity imbalance is ever brought up is when referring to demons going wild. No one at any point ever claims that, with Jeanne saying "this isn't how things end" being the only objection, but that quote could easily mean anything else such as Jeanne believing her relationship with Bayo shouldn't end like this.
Bayo can be crushed flat and regenerate yes, but she can still be splattered into blood and die.
I honestly don't know what Rodin means by stable, but the watch clearly doesn't protect Bayo from harm considering she can still be splattered and killed in several other ways.
Valiant_Abyss
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She's not referring to the hand dragging.
Still not referring to the hand dragging.
STILL not referring to the hand dragging considering he said that right after saying "You're not that type to let that summon (Gamorrah) go out of hand"
This still doesn't refer to hand dragging.
The contract is broken when a witch "dies" as in they can't operate their body. What indicates that OOBE is their souls fighting and not just some kind of Astral form?
- And this means what? All this means is that her body tanked the hit but her soul got separated in the process meaning that it was deemed that her contract has met its terms so she got dragged. Both Rodin and Bayo treat the dragging as completely normal.
- They both said she's not dead as in her soul hasn't been fully absorbed yet.
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Fine. How's that speed stuff coming along btw? What are you going for? Mftl+ or Infinite speed?
Valiant_Abyss
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I disagree. There's a pretty clear answer that the game over screen clearly doesn't have enough evidence to prove that's resurrection, and the resurrection of Jeanne is very clearly limited and non-combat applicable considering the several requirements that had to be met and the fact that Jeanne needed the help of Bayo to be saved.
But I agree that we should be focusing on speed and tiering instead. Scaling for Lifting Strength needs major fixing across the verse as well.
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How so? I’m talking about the lifting strength scaling to be clear.
Valiant_Abyss
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Please just look at the profiles for the characters. It's a complete and utter mess.
Valiant_Abyss
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Loptr: Class P
Bayo 2: Class T
Bayo 1 and Left Eye: Class K
Jeanne: Class G
Madama Butterfly: Class G+
Several other characters: Class G for scaling to Bayo who by the way, doesn't have class G anywhere on her profile?
The scaling makes absolutely no sense and everything with lifting strength in the verse is jumbled up.
Bayo 2: Class T
Bayo 1 and Left Eye: Class K
Jeanne: Class G
Madama Butterfly: Class G+
Several other characters: Class G for scaling to Bayo who by the way, doesn't have class G anywhere on her profile?
The scaling makes absolutely no sense and everything with lifting strength in the verse is jumbled up.
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Damn I see your point. What say you then? What scaling are you arguing for? Bayonetta is where?
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