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Bayonetta Discussion Thread

Comicgyal said:
I also believe that the base eye wielders should be 2-C, and that a possibly 2-A key should be added for Jubileus and Aesir

If any of you are willing to have an actual discussion about it, like me and cyber did, just respond back
Click to expand...
2-A is within my comprehension so I'd be willing to hear the arguments for those, but I prefer if that discussion were to happen here, because I'm really not interested in sharing my discord.
 
I mean I still have severe doubts, but I can at least understand the wiki's standards for meeting 2-A.
 
That’s not what blatant means. Blatant means it’s obvious, the fact Kamiya has to explain it and not mention the fact that the two timelines are merged is the opposite of blatant, it’s vague on how the feat was gonna affect everything.
 
Wait, shouldn't Aesir have gotten cosmic awareness? Didn't we conclude that his "low 1-C" statements were more just cosmic awareness than actual dimensionality?
 
Why possibly 2-C should be likely 2-C

• The eyes of the world are explicitly shown to affect timelines.
This argument is the most obvious to prove, since it actually proves it in the game. After Balder is defeated and Cereza returns to her world, Bayonetta soon activates her left eye. As we know the eyes are sensitive across timelines, which means what happens in one, happens in the other.

Therefore Jubileus merging their main universe, would realistically go for the alternate universe, and every other alternate timeline we know of. This point is pretty hard to deny since it’s shown, which is why I believe it should be likely instead of possibly.

Why anything weakened Jubileus does is incredibly impressive

• Jubileus is much more weakened than you think.
This argument ties into what I’ve been saying in the irenic thread, but jubileus is very weak when she fights Bayonetta. Bayonetta is significantly more powerful than this Jubileus, and this is because of how she’s resurrected. Kamiya explains that Jubileus is supposed to be resurrected in Paradiso, and if she was she would be much stronger.

Kamiya quite literally compares her to a baby, which is why everything Jubileus does is pretty impressive.

Why I think the base eye wielders should be 2-C

• Jubileus and the universe she was creating is more than just a universe

As we already know from the lore, before the universe we know of existed, it was just Jubileus and the multiverse she created. We know that the universe (as kamiya describes) was a multiverse, is because that universe was the basis of the multiverse. Meaning during the cataclysmic event, that (universe) was split into 4 other universes with separate space times.

This is the same universe that Jubileus was creating in Bayonetta 1, which Kamiya himself confirms once more. So this means that wrongly ressurected, right eye Jubileus was replicating her same feat to a degree from when she was at her peak. Mind you, jubileus didn’t have the eyes, she was just that OP. The eyes of the world are the only thing that can restore her to original power, since they’re equally as busted. She needs both eyes to unite the trinity of realities properly, not to unite them at all.

So since Jubileus was essentially creating another multiverse like before, Bayonetta should definitely scale up to this. Bayo and balder would keep their 3-A because that’s confirmed, but could have a possibly / likely added.

This feat isn’t anything new either, looking at the seals created by Aesir. The seals were set in place to guard the doors to realities away from humans, since they would routinely destroy them. The difference is that these seals are said to be able to persist, even after the destruction of their universe, and which is likely referring to the multiverse. We can assume it’s referring to the multiverse, because the only other cataclysmic event that could happen would be Armageddon part 2. Since the balance is so tightly knit, no other god from the other realities could just destroy the human universe.

Possibly 2-A?

• Aesir and infinite possibilities

This argument isn’t as easy to prove, but cyber wasn’t in opposition for possibly 2-A. The reasoning for this was Aesir book entry about infinite possibilities, and how they’re possibly relating to timelines.

As we already know, there are multiple timelines in Bayonetta. The main timeline, the alternate timeline with Cereza, the timeline where Balder possibly destroys the universe (seen in the beginning of the game) The alternate timeline that Loptr created when he went back in time, the alternate timeline Bayonetta created when she fought with her mother, etc. since there are so many proved timelines in Bayonetta, I do believe that Aesirs entry was referring to them.

Existing in a different dimension, watching over the infinite possibilities that layered to form their history, across all time and space? It definitely sounds like timelines. The use of the word “History” and over all time and space, proves that it’s not linked to just their main universe. Aesir is watching over history across infinite possibilities, definitely sounds like timelines.

2-A definition: “Characters who are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying a countably infinite number of space-time continuums.”

Aesir: “Possessing the power of an “Overseer” he existed in a dimension different than our own, watching the infinite possibilities that layered to form history—

(Cont) The power of an “Overseer” is to control the fate of the entire world across all time.”

So he is capable of affecting all of these infinite timelines, if you guys do agree that they’re timelines. They are all separate space time continuum’s.

Here’s how the keys would look for Jubileus for example
3-A when weakened, likely 2-C, possibly 2-A with full power
 
When did Loptr travel back in time? Also, nothing really indicates Bayo fighting with Rosa created another timeline. The whole reason she created another timeline when little Cereza went to the future is because she explicitly changed Cereza's personality and caused her to retain her will to fight during the witch hunts. Bayo fighting with Rosa didn't change anything in Rosa's history because she still ended up dead at the hands of Loptr.

Also, I'm not sure if we really treat infinite possibilities as infinite timelines, because iirc someone brought up that 2-A DBH was rejected for a long time despite their infinite possibilities statements, and only got 2-A once they showed blatant proof there were infinite timelines.
 
Loptr traveled back in time when Bayonetta was sent back to the witch hunts, Loki was the one who sent them there, but Loptr was there as well. Also that is true, that one may not count, however Loptr did create different timelines with his time shenanigans. Still there’s three super confirmed alternate timelines in the game without any assumptions needed to be made
 
Comicgyal said:
Loptr traveled back in time when Bayonetta was sent back to the witch hunts, Loki was the one who sent them there, but Loptr was there as well. Also that is true, that one may not count, however Loptr did create different timelines with his time shenanigans. Still there’s three super confirmed alternate timelines in the game without any assumptions needed to be made
Click to expand...
But Loptr didn't travel back in time. That was literally just a young Loptr.
 
Yeah I’m pretty sure back in the upgrade thread people said you need to specify what they mean by possibilities. Cause the definition of the word varies across fiction. People can find different series where the term “world” means the universe, but other times where the “world” just means planet. Context matters for these terminologies and Bayo doesn’t have enough to prove those are infinite timelines. I’ll respond to the rest when I get done with work.
 
Yeah im not relly for 2-A number of timelies in bayonetta yet, wait until bayonetta 3 before arguing something like that
 
Except I don't want to. I've seen the same reworded paragraphs posted over and over. I'm too tired to want to debate Irenic at all, hell I'm even getting tired just watching the damn debate.
 
Should we merge the Lifting strength stuff with the hax stuff? On top of revising both angels and demon pages? Killing 3 birds with one stone can make the work go by a lot faster
 
I'd be down for that idea. I'll go through the Bayonetta tag category on the wiki to look for any calcs that we can link on the profiles for the LS part when I can.
 
If you can’t find much calcs, we can just look through all the noteworthy lifting strength feats the two games has and get a calc member to calc them all into one blog.

@Comicgyal btw I’ll respond to the 2-C proposals once the Irenic stuff is done in case you’re gonna ask.
 
Okay, real quick I just need some opinions on this. If Aesir gets low godly removed in favor of immortality types 2 and 4, Jubileus would also get type 2 since she's able to survive as a soul if you crash into a planet, but would it be association fallacy to assume Sheba would also have type 2 since Aesir and Jubileus both have it?
 
That sounds more like unconventional soul resistances for both gods imo. Imagine Pain from Naruto using the soul rip from Human Path on both of these characters. It’s kind of on the level that they can live while as souls and could do stuff as souls.
 
I mean that could be a possibility but I still feel like it's an extreme level of type 2 since they're literally just completely fine walking around as souls, despite having the head of their body blown off, or just straight up devoured.
 
Eh, I'll just ask in the QnA board later. Revising Aesir's non-combat applicable low-godly is the least of my concerns right now.
 
I think level 2 immortality is good for all of them tbh. We know that witches can exists as souls, it’s just that they’ll be dragged to hell. It’s fine to assume the gods can too
 
It won’t last long, I’ll give it by the end of the week before the DB thread is finished.
 
Most DMC fans will argue that Dante beat universal threats solo while Bayo always needed help & couldn’t finish the fights. Then they’ll ignore everything you say after that.-(At least the bastards I’ve talked to.)
 
Solo or not doesn't matter most of the time. Goku and Vegeta fought Jiren together but are still universal, Hit fought Jiren by himself and he's still universal. Doesn't definitively prove anything.
 
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