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Sasuke has some Magical ability to drop his power by the Millions while simultaneously increase it by Millions right afterwards despite taking more Damage.
I call it schrodinger's Sasuke.
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Base Momoshiki and Kinshiki downgrade
- Thread starter DuDE01010
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I call it schrodinger's Sasuke.
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Madara said Guy nearly killed him. That dude would be dead if it wasn't for his regeneration, like half his body was gone.
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While I'm debating against the OP's proposal, I also don't mind compromising and helping out and being constructive. Maybe my compromise will avoid some annoyances in the future?
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Why not put Momoshiki and Kinshiki as Unknown instead? That'd only be two characters to change instead of four.
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So like "Unknown | At least 5-C" for Fused Momo?
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Same reason why Naruto and Sasuke didn't speed blitz and stomp Shin Uchiha. No story is without PIS.
Of course. Kages are 7A, my proposed rating for the Otsutsuki are 6C. Of course 5C Sasuke carries the kage.
See this is exactly why the kage 'don't have anti feats so they scale' argument don't work. Now 13 year olds are 5C/FTL because they fought a guy that had no anti feats who has a hype statement. Where is god tier Himawari lol for knocked out Naruto which fused Momoshiki couldn't do?
Its made very obvious that while training makes you stronger, no matter how hard you train it doesn't make you a 5C. Might Guy trains the most and the hardest and couldn't beat a 6A. So any character e.g Kakashi getting stronger doesn't matter since they are not jumping to 5C. Remember that Kakashi literally needed a powerup to become 5C (DMS + six paths + susanoo), something that no amount of training by him could ever match.
It's made very clear if you want to be in the god tier, you either have to get a powerups (SPSM, juubi etc) or enhance your body through ninja tech (Code, new cyborgs)
- Shin Uchiha, a 7A character, didn't get turned into paste by Naruto or Sasuke.
- Urashiki, an unknown tier character that dies to boruto and kid narutos rasengan, didn't get turned into paste by Sasuke.
- Boruto, tier 8, didn't get turned into paste by fused Momoshiki.
- Base Naruto, tier Unknow, didn't get turned into paste by Fused Momoshiki.
- The kage, tier 7, didnt get turned into paste by fused Momoshiki.
Also I don't understand your reasoning. You agree Gaara and the other kage shouldn't be 5C, but don't agree with the downgrade due to PIS not turning Kinshiki into paste? But isn't that the same logic your using where you admit the kage aren't 5C, yet they haven't been turned into paste by Momoshiki or Kinshiki?
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Yes and that Madara was 6A not 5C. This just proves Guy even with all that training still can't kill a 6A.
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1
1. Shin didn't get turned into paste because we agreed that him surviving at all is PIS. but if it's not feel free to upgrade Shin to 5-C, just goodluck arguing Sasuke is low on Chakra this time.
2. Hence why his Unknown, his Inconsistent, unless you want to argue Kid Naruto is 5-C.
3. Boruto never directly fights Momoshiki and outliers exists for a reason.
4. Hence why his Unknown and not 6-C but your right, naruto survives alot of shit from 5-C characters
. seems CRT worthy
Yeah it's almost as if they not 7-A or Outliers exist.
>Also I don't understand your reasoning. You agree Gaara and the other kage shouldn't be 5C, but don't agree with the downgrade due to PIS not turning Kinshiki into paste? But isn't that the same logic your using where you admit the kage aren't 5C, yet they haven't been turned into paste by Momoshiki or Kinshiki?
Once a feat is deemed PIS,CIS or an Outlier they are unusable. you cant use the same feat that has been disregarded as evidence without creating a double standard.
Secondly.
Between the Five Kage and Kinshiki only 1 has fought Sasuke and only 1 is considered a massive threat, take a guess who and ask me who's PIS is more likely.
1. Shin didn't get turned into paste because we agreed that him surviving at all is PIS. but if it's not feel free to upgrade Shin to 5-C, just goodluck arguing Sasuke is low on Chakra this time.
2. Hence why his Unknown, his Inconsistent, unless you want to argue Kid Naruto is 5-C.
3. Boruto never directly fights Momoshiki and outliers exists for a reason.
4. Hence why his Unknown and not 6-C but your right, naruto survives alot of shit from 5-C characters
. seems CRT worthyYeah it's almost as if they not 7-A or Outliers exist.
>Also I don't understand your reasoning. You agree Gaara and the other kage shouldn't be 5C, but don't agree with the downgrade due to PIS not turning Kinshiki into paste? But isn't that the same logic your using where you admit the kage aren't 5C, yet they haven't been turned into paste by Momoshiki or Kinshiki?
Once a feat is deemed PIS,CIS or an Outlier they are unusable. you cant use the same feat that has been disregarded as evidence without creating a double standard.
Secondly.
Between the Five Kage and Kinshiki only 1 has fought Sasuke and only 1 is considered a massive threat, take a guess who and ask me who's PIS is more likely.
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Since the "training" argument has been brought up multiple time.
Its made clear in Naruto/Boruto, to become a 5C you either have to get Powerups (SPSM, Rinnegan, Juubi etc) or get your body enhanced by ninja tech (Code, Ada etc). It's made very clear no matter how hard you train you will never be able to reach the god tier without the above mentioned things.
Might Guy: I'm pretty sure that everyone here can agree that Might Guy is one of the people that trains the most and the hardest and the most likely candidate to ever reach the god tier just by training. Yet even he couldn't achieve this. Might Guy with decades of training and using 8 gates, something that boosts your power above the kages, still couldn't kill a 6A, that's not even a 5C. But now the new gen kage are 5C because time has passed and they've trained and with no display of any powerups or body enhancements?
Training makes you very strong and many characters in Naruto have jumped tiers through it, but it's made clear no amount of training without similar powerups to the ones mentioned above and ninja tech, will let you reach 5C.
Boruto is a new series that is set a decade or so after the Last, but that doesn't mean just because there is a time jump with the older versions of characters not having 'anti feats', characters who were previously tier 7 are now all of a sudden 5C because 'training', a concept that has been shown to be unachievable.
Its made clear in Naruto/Boruto, to become a 5C you either have to get Powerups (SPSM, Rinnegan, Juubi etc) or get your body enhanced by ninja tech (Code, Ada etc). It's made very clear no matter how hard you train you will never be able to reach the god tier without the above mentioned things.
Might Guy: I'm pretty sure that everyone here can agree that Might Guy is one of the people that trains the most and the hardest and the most likely candidate to ever reach the god tier just by training. Yet even he couldn't achieve this. Might Guy with decades of training and using 8 gates, something that boosts your power above the kages, still couldn't kill a 6A, that's not even a 5C. But now the new gen kage are 5C because time has passed and they've trained and with no display of any powerups or body enhancements?
Training makes you very strong and many characters in Naruto have jumped tiers through it, but it's made clear no amount of training without similar powerups to the ones mentioned above and ninja tech, will let you reach 5C.
Boruto is a new series that is set a decade or so after the Last, but that doesn't mean just because there is a time jump with the older versions of characters not having 'anti feats', characters who were previously tier 7 are now all of a sudden 5C because 'training', a concept that has been shown to be unachievable.
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Sounds more reasonable than downgrading them to 6-C imo.
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This just seems like you think it's too absurd that they scale to really powerful characters cuz you think it's unlikely. It's shown, it's implied they got stronger, it would follow they being the kages would be stronger from fighting these characters. And also imagine making kinshiki and momo unknown even though they have tons of hype from Kaguya, Naruto, Sasuke.
Can someone acknowledge this... it's literally kinshiki tanking chidori from sasuke even though op said he didn't.Sasuke uses lightning style on his sword while fighting Kinshiki and we all know lightning style enhances cutting and still could not cut Kinshiki's weapons. Kinshiki also just knocks sasuke away too and his sharingan and rinnegan are active so he should be getting amped. And to the him not using jutsus, he was stopped during that so couldn't further the fight. There's also the fact that during the second fight with all the kages Sasuke just out right hits him on the back with a chidori and Kinshiki gets right back up from it.
Not sure if anime is different.
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Op's entire argument relies on Bizarre reasoning.
Kinshiki is not 5-C because the Kage are 7-A and the Kage are 7-A because they cant scale to Kinshiki who is 5-C and that doesn't make sense.
and that doesn't make sense because of an appeal to incredulity or that Sasuke was low on chakra. The same Sasuke who was low on Chakra fought the Momoshiki that OP agrees is 5-C.
Kinshiki is not 5-C because the Kage are 7-A and the Kage are 7-A because they cant scale to Kinshiki who is 5-C and that doesn't make sense.
and that doesn't make sense because of an appeal to incredulity or that Sasuke was low on chakra. The same Sasuke who was low on Chakra fought the Momoshiki that OP agrees is 5-C.
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There is something I want to point out and i'm not sure if it has been addressed yet (There are a lot of comments) but Momoshiki retains all Jutsu he absorbs. He even told Boruto and co when faced with the Father-Son Rasengan that he could make as many as those as he wanted.
As far as the downgrades go, I disagree completely. Kinshiki is shown being able to consistently match Sasuke in h2h combat. Kishimoto also depicted Base Momoshiki as being able to as well in the movie but that is irrelevant atm. Point is, Base Momoshiki is consistently shown in all mediums to be strong enough to Damage/Press SPSM Naruto with Jutsu and Kinshiki has been shown to Match Sasuke consistently.
These are constants in NV and i'm erroring on the side of consistency here. I agree with others like Shadow as well.
As far as the downgrades go, I disagree completely. Kinshiki is shown being able to consistently match Sasuke in h2h combat. Kishimoto also depicted Base Momoshiki as being able to as well in the movie but that is irrelevant atm. Point is, Base Momoshiki is consistently shown in all mediums to be strong enough to Damage/Press SPSM Naruto with Jutsu and Kinshiki has been shown to Match Sasuke consistently.
These are constants in NV and i'm erroring on the side of consistency here. I agree with others like Shadow as well.
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This is a bit weird since like, the manga has stuff like Fused Momo struggling to damaged a drained base Naruto then getting overwhelmed by his Six Paths Mode only to then fight evenly against a Kurama Summoning.
The fight is inconsistent. The anime is better in that regards I guess.
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Because Momoshiki is fodder compared to Naruto and Sasuke. Base Naruto is strong as **** actually.
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Just wanted to point out that the entire arc had incredibly strange power fluctuations. Sometimes within the same fight
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Well, I have always said this, to the dismay of others, but SPSM isn't an AP / Strength Boost for Naruto. His Base is just as strong as Sasuke's (Just their Base Speed Isn't Equal) and he uses Six Paths Chakra in Base As Well. People are "just" starting to see what i have always been saying.
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I mean, it sorta has to be or that scene doesn't make sense as to how he suddenly and easily overwhelmed Momoshiki.
The rest is a topic for a different thread.
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There seems to be statements that Hiruzen is believed to be the strongest Hokage (thought that was retconned in part 2), though I guess peak Hashirama and his rival would still scale to him, as Hashirama and Tobirama are called the ultimate Shinobi.
Don't follow the logic why Fused Momoshiki should paste weakened Naruto and Sasuke. They were hurting a 6-C, and when he fused he got a boost but not enough to the point where Gaara can't block his punch. Just because a 6-C got a power boost doesn't mean that he is suddenly 5-C.
In addition, Naruto and Sasuke were avoiding direct hits with their most powerful Chakra attacks to avoid Momoshiki's absorption ability, and at the end of the day Naruto could barely stand.
And it is apparent that the level they reached is 6-C at best. But Kaguya didn't know that.
Who says Fused Momoshiki is stronger than Kaguya?
Do I really need to remind you of Sasuke vs Shin or the time-travel arc, to illustrate low-Chakra nerfs?
That is a headcanon as well, as there is no statement about the potential of Hashirama/Madara being surpassed by the non-Naruto New Era Kages.
Speed: Unknown (Kept up with FTL Momoshiki/Kinshiki)
Why Unknown when we know they scale?
Maybe try to address a steelman version.Op's entire argument relies on Bizarre reasoning.
Kinshiki is not 5-C because the Kage are 7-A and the Kage are 7-A because they cant scale to Kinshiki who is 5-C and that doesn't make sense.
and that doesn't make sense because of an appeal to incredulity or that Sasuke was low on chakra. The same Sasuke who was low on Chakra fought the Momoshiki that OP agrees is 5-C.
Such as Fused Momoshiki not being 5-C.
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The fight does appear to be inconsistent but we could put this down as:
1) Fused Momoshiki is not significantly stronger than base Naruto, so him struggling to damage him makes sense.
2) Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto is portrayed as clearly superior to Fused Momoshiki, so this bit makes sense.
3) Momoshiki summons / creates a monster to fight on his behalf which overwhelms Kurama Avatar. So not Fused Momoshiki himself, but just a specific technique he has. Of course he still gets stomped by Kurama Avatar + Susano'o.
So taking all this into account, I would be okay with revising base Momoshiki so he isn't scaling to Naruto.
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For Momoshiki, what about something like this?:
Unknown physically, Varies with Ninjutsu (Absorbs his opponent's Ninjutsu and returns it back with increased force), up to Moon level+ (Broke through Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto's Kurama Avatar with reflected Ninjutsu, knocking him unconscious in the process.)
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It was Retconned by the fact that Hashi and Tobirama show much much better feats hence destroying the "standard"
Maybe try to address a steelman version.
Such as Fused Momoshiki not being 5-C.
Provide me evidence that Fused Momoshiki isn't 5-C.
1. Gaara catching Momoshiki's fist isnt an AP feat it's a speed feat as his literally overwhelmed seconds later.
2. Provide me evidence that Naruto and Sasuke's AP dropped from 5-C to 6-C that doesn't rely on the assumption that other characters are 6-C like Kinshiki.
3.Provide me Evidence that Naruto and Sasuke can create Kurama Avatars and Susanoo constructions in their six paths modes that are 6-C as opposed to not being able to do those things at all with low chakra.
4. Provide Evidence that Sasuke and Naruto were low on chakra to the point of being 6-C as opposed to just not being at their best.
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Thats fine with me.
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Good, iirc he also broke Sasuke's Susano'o, so it should be in his justification too.
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In response to the scan:
1. Kabuto thought he gave Madara most of his power or that he amped by a lot but Madara denied it and claimed that he gained this power himself. So he's not omniscience or something, so not everything he says is automatically proof.
2. All Kabuto says is that no one at moment is as strong as Madara and Hashirama, doesn't mean anything. Just because nobody trained hard enough to reach their level at that point in the story, doesn't mean it can't ever happen later.
1. Kabuto thought he gave Madara most of his power or that he amped by a lot but Madara denied it and claimed that he gained this power himself. So he's not omniscience or something, so not everything he says is automatically proof.
2. All Kabuto says is that no one at moment is as strong as Madara and Hashirama, doesn't mean anything. Just because nobody trained hard enough to reach their level at that point in the story, doesn't mean it can't ever happen later.
Apparent? How? They kept up with Naruto and Sasuke and didn't get stomped.
Only the narrative itself, pretty important. Cause, since I'm gonna repeat myself, Kaguya was scared of them and knew she couldn't fight them alone. Plus I believe Naruto and Sasuke got stronger later on anyway and Momoshiki not getting stomped would make it hard to believe Kaguya is stronger than him. Again if you wanna downgrade Naruto and Sasuke, go do that first before using the argument that they got weaker and thus making Momoshiki look weaker.
I think someone else already addressed that.
Listen, all I'm saying is the kage should at least be unknown. Also, I never commented on speed, I was talking about AP. Maybe that's unknown too, idk.
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I wouldn't be against this, this is an okay compromise.
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Neither did the kages, which you've agreed are not 5C. Kinshiki and Momoshiki fighting Sasuke means nothing when there's more evidence for that being PIS, as shown by their performance against the kage and Shikamaru.
And that logic applies to this as well lol. The Otsutsuki fights Sasuke one minute and then gets halted by Shikamaru while the kage perform well against them despite them being multiple tiers below the duo's current given level.
- Boruto bruises Momoshiki twice and even pushed his hand away
- And by outliers do you mean like Kinshiki fighting Sasuke? It seems to me that your very selective on what outliers are.
Yup it is definitely CRT worthy as 2 characters are rated as 5C and FTL, when based off everything, can be downgraded to 6C/unknown (looking at other comments) and MHS+.4. Hence why his Unknown and not 6-C but your right, naruto survives alot of shit from 5-C characters
So outliers like Kinshiki fighting Sasuke and not getting pasted by him? I agree.
And what makes the Sasuke fight not the outlier as Momoshiki and Kinshiki have more consistent lower ends than 5C/FTL?
Being considered a treat doesn't justify a 5C/FTL rating when feats show otherwise. Being considered a threat also ignores context, as the duo are a treat due to what they can do to the planet and it's people, as in capture tailed beats, turn them into trees and absorb the life of the planet and its people, leaving it a barren wasteland. Of course they are a threat.
Many people in the real world are considered massive threats to the planet because of what they can do through their tools or influence. It doesn't mean they can 1v1 a tank.
If you mean a threat as to Kaguya. Context is import here. Post fruit Kaguya (not prime Kaguya) considered them a threat and to combat them she created zetsus. I don't think I need to remind you how weak bricks the whIte zetsu are do I?
No offense but your argument is more bizarre.
You agree that kage are not 5C, but then think its ridiculous for Kinshiki to be 6C and not get pasted by Sasuke, despite the same thing not happening to the kages (you completely ignored Shikamaru too btw). And then claims Shin is an outlier despite hurting Naruto and Sasuke and not being pasted by them and turns around and states 5C Kinshiki is not, despite the same logic applying backed up by not 5C Kage and Shikamaru (which you've agreed to). Very selective indeed.
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Retconned by statements of superiority, not just feats.
1. He was taken by surprise from Momoshiki's follow-up Hair Manipulation attack, but he successfully blocked Momoshiki's fist without being overwhelmed. He then survived a direct kick without turning into paste.
2. & 3. & 4.
Can you provide evidence that Momoshiki and Kinshiki are 5-C that doesn't rely on the assumption that other characters are 5-C?
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Not just no one reached his level, no one came close to reaching his level so much that his power level is considered a myth.
What kind of training did the New Era Kage do that multiple generations of Shinobi and Kage fell short on? This warrants an explanation.
A Naruto who got drained, and a Sasuke who have been dimension traveling and is pushing the limits of his portals.
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I can agree with this compromise but i'd like to note that this makes it very lenient for characters to go up many tiers just by making an argument that:
Time passed -> X Character after time skip doesn't need to scale to their younger character -> they therefore have no anti feats and can scale to Y character despite not making sense in the power structure of the verse.
E.g Sarada and team retrieve Kawaki -> short amount of time passes where they train -> Sarada fights and hurts Boro (who has 5C statements) and she is therefore close to his level because her time skip form has no anti feats.
But that's just my opinion and as I said, I agree with with your rating. Do you have an opinion regarding their speed or Kinshiki's level?
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Boro shouldn't be 5-C but that's just a personal opinion.
I think the fact that they all became kages would suggest they got strong to the point where even the past kages were below them in boruto. This would follow the narrative that the new generations surpass or get stronger than the old. That's how I see it really.
Uhh... Shikamaru can also restrain all the kages and base naruto. So really this isn't an anti feat, its a novel. And also considering shikamaru can also restrain momo too.
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This^
And im loving how this thread has failed to consider the other likely possibility that the Kages are the PIS and/or outliers here instead of treating them as anti feats for the Otsutsuki duo.
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Idk if saying multiple events occurring in different chapters are all PIS is the best call to make about an already inconsistent character
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Just giving an example.
If this was any other tier jump I would tend to agree with this sentiment, but as we've seen, no amount of training puts someone at god tier. Do you disagree that Might Guy trains the hardest? Boruto makes this even more clear, where they've now introduced ninja tech as a way to becoming 5C instead of 'training'
The new gen > old gen is just a statement. Multiple examples of new gen that don't surpass the old gen.
Yes all these reasons I have brought up. Shikamaru is currently rated as 7C and my proposal would make him at least 6C due to restraining my proposed versions of the Otsutsuki, the 7A kage and the unknown tier base Naruto.
Why would the kage be the outliers? when there are more lower end feats for the duo than the upper ends.
High end Kinshiki
Fought Sasuke (Sasuke was unhurt and he cut Kinshiki's horn off)
Survived Chidori
Low end Kinshiki
Sasuke evaded his attacks without his shringan active while carrying Sarada
Chojuro evaded his attacks
Chojuro pierced him
Kuro surprised and tagged him
kuro sent him flying (Kinshiki was unhurt)
Kuro sealed him (only broke out because of Momoshiki)
Shikamaru restrained him
High end Momoshiki( without absorption)
Shiju fruit Kaguya was afraid of him (not prime)
Low end Momoshiki
Running away from Darui and Gaara
Couldn't kill Darui when he closed the distance and only parried
Restrained by Shikamaru
Shinju fruit kaguya though an army of white zetsu could fight the duo
Gaara's sand was faster (anime)
Where is the possibility of Sakura being an outlier to 5C Shin Uchiha? or better yet 5C Sakura, going by the reasoning provided by some who disagree with the downgrade. Time has passed, Sakura has trained and older Sakura does not need to scale to teen Sakura thereby not having anti feats.
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