Base Momoshiki and Kinshiki downgrade

[The_Alxhemist]

Kinshiki:

1. Fought and matched Sasuke Uchiha (from his page)

• Fighting Sasuke isn't enough justification for him to be 5C especially due to his performance against the kage as well as his later performance against Sasuke in the chunin exams (discussed below).

Trying to use Kages as an anti feat doesn't make sense anymore, it's either the Kages scale or their feats are as legitimate as Sakura folding Kaguya's head downwards

• All kinshiki did was match him while Sasuke parried. At no point was Sasuke shown to be struggling or hurt and at no point did he feel the need to use his jutsu (chidori, fire style etc) or susanoo.

He pushed Sasuke to switch places, he definitely was pressured to some extent at the very least.

Anti feats

1. While Kinshiki matched Sasuke when he was introduced, in their rematch Sasuke was casually evading Kinshiki’s strikes. This was done without his sharingan being active while also carrying Sarada. (This scene was extended in the anime).

You're talking about the same scene Shikamaru got involved right?

2. Chojuro was able to parry and dodge his attacks and the only reason Chojuro got cut was because he was backed into the root of the god tree and didn't have the room to evade. (Extended in the anime)

Chojuro literally set himself as bait, he obviously lured Kinshiki to that spot so Kurotsuchi would have a shot at Kinshiki.

3. Chojuro later went on to pearce Kinshiki. If Kinshiki was truly 5C and FTL he would have easily been able to blitz and slice through Chojuro, who’s 7A and MHS+ (scaled off Gaara and Darui’s pages)

Those pages need a lot of work, especially considering that they are rated with what level they were at decades ago and are at MHS+ which is Konohamaru's current rating

4. Kurotsuchi was able to send kinshiki flying. He was also not fast enough to evade her despite kinshiki being rated FTL while kurotsuki is MHS+ (scaling off Darui and Gaara).

That very much looks like a feat to me not an Anti feat. After he got lured, she came out of hiding and was able to successfully land a hit on him.

5. Kurotsuchi later went off to restrain Kinshiki with her jutsu and he only broke free because Momoshiki forced him out and turned him into a fruit .

How is being sealed an anti feat? Humans could seal the bijuu but that doesn't mean they scale to their AP. And this seal was only possible because Kinshiki had his chakra nervous system disrupted by Chojuro's blade.

2. Stated he will punish Kaguya

• Base Momoshiki stated he will punish Kaguya, implying he was stronger than her, however this doesn't matter since Momoshiki only knew Kaguya before she came to Earth, ate a shinju fruit and merged with the shijuu tree, so he only knew ‘base’ Kaguya and not Prime kaguya.

Just so you know this whole "base kaguya" stuff is strictly filler content. It's not canon, the holograms of the Otsutsuki Sasuke saw shows Base Momoshiki and Kaguya with a Rinnesharingan on her forehead, meaning she never was in base when she came to earth.

Anti feats

1. Darui was able to keep up with momoshiki and fight him (Darui is MHS+) while all Momoshiki could do was dodge and parry instead of using his apparent 5C jutsu that can break Kurama Mode’s shield. He was also running away.

Congratulations you just proved again that the kages consistently displayed FTL combat speed during the fight.

2. Gaara's sand was faster than Momoshiki in the anime (sand is MHS+)

Another one

3. Restrained by Shikamaru's shadow and had to absorb it to escape.

• He was completely restrained btw (backed up also by kinshiki, a close equal to Momoshiki, being stopped mid swing) before an argument is made that he only absorbed the shadow so he could have another jutsu.

This only just shows that the characters got insane power cliffs which is a norm in the franchise

 

[Arkenis]

Where is the possibility of Sakura being an outlier to 5C Shin Uchiha? or better yet 5C Sakura, going by the reasoning provided by some who disagree with the downgrade. Time has passed, Sakura has trained and older Sakura does not need to scale to teen Sakura thereby not having anti feats.

I honestly don't know why sakura would be an outlier for. It's stated Shins a threat to the ninja world, And her seal should have only grown more stronger so her scaling that higher isn't really an issue. She also is implied multiple times in the databook to be relative to sasuke and naruto. Probably doesn't matter since databook isn't accepted but w.e ig.

Sasuke evaded his attacks without his shringan active while carrying Sarada
Chojuro evaded his attacks
Chojuro pierced him
Kuro surprised and tagged him
kuro sent him flying (Kinshiki was unhurt)
Kuro sealed him (only broke out because of Momoshiki)
Shikamaru restrained him

You just gonna forget their encounter prior to the exams where Kinshiki was keeping up with sharingan sasuke and sasuke also teleported to get away from him.
Chojuro pierced him... Yes pierced not punched or kicked and made bleed, it's very apparent that piercing attacks tend to be more harmful in naruto, idk why this would be any different now.
Kuro did nothing notable for ap.
And restraining isn't an ap feat.
Also again Kinshiki clashed with a lightning amped sword which increases cutting power from sasuke. That sounds like the weapons he makes scale to sasuke. And his horns can just be really weak compared to his whole body and this actually proves they're weaker than his weapons.
Kinshiki literally takes the chidori to the back unprepared.

I'd also like to point out that Sasuke thinks if naruto dies then "it's all over" meaning not even he could beat kinshiki and momoshiki on his own yet they're somehow 6-C...

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Isn’t everyone in the verse 5-C via One Tailed Kid Naruto beating Urashiki

 

[DuDE01010]

Trying to use Kages as an anti feat doesn't make sense anymore, it's either the Kages scale or their feats are as legitimate as Sakura folding Kaguya's head downwards

What lol? So either the kage are 5C or their feats don't matter to the argument.

Trying to say the kage are 5C is what doesn't make sense. Imagine Chojuro vs Juubi madara.

He pushed Sasuke to switch places, he definitely was pressured to some extent at the very least.

Either Sasuke is 7A or this feat is illegitimate

For real tho, already discussed as a high end feat for him.

You're talking about the same scene Shikamaru got involved right?

Yes

Chojuro literally set himself as bait, he obviously lured Kinshiki to that spot so Kurotsuchi would have a shot at Kinshiki.

Yup a MHS+ character dodged Kinshiki's attacks, and lured him into a spot where a 7A and MHS+ character tagged him and punched him through the roots.

Those pages need a lot of work, especially considering that they are rated with what level they were at decades ago and are at MHS+ which is Konohamaru's current rating

Well until that's fixed or discussed about, 7A/MHS+ justification for the downgrade still applies unfortunately.

That very much looks like a feat to me not an Anti feat. After he got lured, she came out of hiding and was able to successfully land a hit on him.

Other way around as Kuro is 7A and MHS+ so its an anti feat for Kinshiki.

How is being sealed an anti feat? Humans could seal the bijuu but that doesn't mean they scale to their AP. And this seal was only possible because Kinshiki had his chakra nervous system disrupted by Chojuro's blade.

• Sealing through tools don't apply to humans but if they seal trough their own jutsu it applies. Kinshiki physically couldn't get out of a 7A's jutsu.
• Someone brought up that statement earlier and from what i've been told is that it's from the movie novel, something that is not canon here.

Just so you know this whole "base kaguya" stuff is strictly filler content. It's not canon, the holograms of the Otsutsuki Sasuke saw shows Base Momoshiki and Kaguya with a Rinnesharingan on her forehead, meaning she never was in base when she came to earth.

Whether you disagree with the term or not doesn't change the fact that kaguya got more powerups after she came to Earth.

Kaguya that came to Earth (rinnesharingan) < rinnesharingan +shinju fruit Kaguya < rinnegsharingan + shijuu fruit + tree merged Kaguya. It was the middle Kaguya that was 'afraid' of them.

Also no comment on the fact that a Zetsu army was to take on the duo. 5C Zetsu upgrade?

Congratulations you just proved again that the kages consistently displayed FTL combat speed during the fight.

U can't just turn anti feats into feats lol. 5C and FTL Shin and Sakura?

Where is the 5C and FTL kid Boruto, kid Naruto and Jiraya who were able to beat Urashiki who was equal to the supposed consistent FTL kage?

Another one

This only just shows that the characters got insane power cliffs which is a norm in the franchise

No it just shows another instance of anti feats and PIS in a fictional story.

 

[DuDE01010]

I honestly don't know why sakura would be an outlier for. It's stated Shins a threat to the ninja world, And her seal should have only grown more stronger so her scaling that higher isn't really an issue. She also is implied multiple times in the databook to be relative to sasuke and naruto. Probably doesn't matter since databook isn't accepted but w.e ig.

You just gonna forget their encounter prior to the exams where Kinshiki was keeping up with sharingan sasuke and sasuke also teleported to get away from him.

Already included as a high end feat in the same post you quoted from. "Fought Sasuke"

Chojuro pierced him... Yes pierced not punched or kicked and made bleed, it's very apparent that piercing attacks tend to be more harmful in naruto, idk why this would be any different now.

Based off what?

Kuro did nothing notable for ap.

other than punching Kinshiki and sealing him, yea nothing else notable.

And restraining isn't an ap feat.

Shikamaru's shadow > Kinshiki's physical ability to overpower it. It is AP otherwise it wouldn't say 7C with shadow paralysis on his profile.

Also again Kinshiki clashed with a lightning amped sword which increases cutting power from sasuke. That sounds like the weapons he makes scale to sasuke. And his horns can just be really weak compared to his whole body and this actually proves they're weaker than his weapons.

Well if you want to propose a compromise with 6C Kinshiki or unknown Kinshiki with 5C weapons i'm fine with that

Kinshiki literally takes the chidori to the back unprepared.

This point has been discussed multiple time already.

I'd also like to point out that Sasuke thinks if naruto dies then "it's all over" meaning not even he could beat kinshiki and momoshiki on his own yet they're somehow 6-C...

That was the beginning of the battle, hardly enough time for an accurate assessment. Sasuke is cautious and doesn't risk it why wouldn't he add extra protection to Naruto when he's right there? It is important to note btw that was through Momoshiki's absorbed and released jutsu which i've proposed should be higher than his regular AP, infact I agreed with Damages opinion regarding Momoshiki's AP.

Unknown physically, Varies with Ninjutsu (Absorbs his opponent's Ninjutsu and returns it back with increased force), up to Moon level+ (Broke through Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto's Kurama Avatar with reflected Ninjutsu, knocking him unconscious in the process.)

 

[Arkenis]

Based off what?

Based off the numerous times characters are able to pierce each other with swords and kunai, based on the fact that kishimoto explicitly points out that ninjas wear shinguards and metal plates on their hands to block kunais and swords.

other than punching Kinshiki and sealing him, yea nothing else notable.

That punch was shown to do nothing of significance, but if you're gonna use that punch as ap feat for her idk why kinshiki can't also get the same treatment for slapping away sasuke two times.

Shikamaru's shadow > Kinshiki's physical ability to overpower it. It is AP otherwise it wouldn't say 7C with shadow paralysis on his profile.

I'm not sure if you're looking at a different shikamaru page but his ap reason for 7-C is from hidan not Kinshiki. But yea ig if others are cool with his shadow paralysis going for ap then he literally restrained all the kages and base naruto during a meeting so he should be higher for that and kinshiki and momoshiki as well. Makes kinshiki not getting out make more sense.

Well if you want to propose a compromise with 6C Kinshiki or unknown Kinshiki with 5C weapons i'm fine with that

I definitely think he should be 5-C with his weapons, my only problem is that those weapons are made from his chakra so would their feats not apply to his own power as well? regardless he should be 5-C with weapons.

That was the beginning of the battle, hardly enough time for an accurate assessment. Sasuke is cautious and doesn't risk it why wouldn't he add extra protection to Naruto when he's right there? It is important to note btw that was through Momoshiki's absorbed and released jutsu which i've proposed should be higher than his regular AP, infact I agreed with Damages opinion regarding Momoshiki's AP.

That was the beginning of their fight. Sasuke had already fought kinshiki, he'd know his power. This all points to sasuke not being able to stop Kinshiki and Momoshiki on his own without help from the kages or naruto. Also shikamaru gets a good look at them during the exams and thought the kages were good enough to fight them as well. It just all leads to it seeming like the threat they're going up against is far greater than just 6-C idk.

 

[Nerd1435]

Fairy Tail has a better scaling with fewer inconsistencies than Boruto. Don't @ me

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Fairy Tail has a better scaling with fewer inconsistencies than Boruto. Don't @ me

Damn this man really said it... But it is totally true tho if we counting the Time Travel Arc

That's the equivalent of X784 Natsu beating a Dragon God

 

[M3X_2.0]

And what is the merit in that?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

And what is the merit in that?

No merit, just some casual talk, so I'll stop now

 

[DuDE01010]

Based off the numerous times characters are able to pierce each other with swords and kunai, based on the fact that kishimoto explicitly points out that ninjas wear shinguards and metal plates on their hands to block kunais and swords.

Characters getting pierced by swords and kunai isn't a weakness. That's like saying ninja are weak to jutsu because they get hurt or die by them. Wearing shin guards and metal plates mean nothing as that's to add extra precautions, just like we wear helmets when riding a bike.

Ninja get pierced if they are on a similar level/weaker than the person they're fighting. 4 tails Naruto didn't get pierced by Orochimaru, SM Naruto didn't get pierced by Pain, while Adult SPSM Naruto got pierced by Jigen. Are you suggesting Adult Naruto is less durable to piercing than 4 tails?

Naruto verse profiles don't list piercing durability as a separate tier, so this reasoning isn't valid for a counter to Chojuro piercing Kinshiki.

That punch was shown to do nothing of significance, but if you're gonna use that punch as ap feat for her idk why kinshiki can't also get the same treatment for slapping away sasuke two times.

It's an additional piece of info to all the points. Sasuke was in midair both times while Kinshiki was on the ground. It's easier to punch someone away if they have no footing.

I'm not sure if you're looking at a different shikamaru page but his ap reason for 7-C is from hidan not Kinshiki. But yea ig if others are cool with his shadow paralysis going for ap then he literally restrained all the kages and base naruto during a meeting so he should be higher for that and kinshiki and momoshiki as well. Makes kinshiki not getting out make more sense.

Yes I will also be making a CRT for Shikamaru, I first wanted to get the Otsutsuki duo done as it can be used to support him. Shikamaru will be at least 7A likely far higher.

I definitely think he should be 5-C with his weapons, my only problem is that those weapons are made from his chakra so would their feats not apply to his own power as well? regardless he should be 5-C with weapons.

The site separates Kaguya and her ETSB (despite that being made out of her own chakra and only requiring the shinobi alliance to recharge her chakra and not to buff it further) so the same thing can be applied to Kinshiki due to his more consistent tier 7 and 6 feats.

Boruto villains are pretty inconsistent so the way I see it It can go the Urashiki/Boro route (Unknown), Shin/my original route (6C) or the compromise (At least 6C, 5C with Chakra weapons)

That was the beginning of their fight. Sasuke had already fought kinshiki, he'd know his power. This all points to sasuke not being able to stop Kinshiki and Momoshiki on his own without help from the kages or naruto. Also shikamaru gets a good look at them during the exams and thought the kages were good enough to fight them as well. It just all leads to it seeming like the threat they're going up against is far greater than just 6-C idk.

• Sasuke was more concerned about getting the scroll back and it would have been a 2v1 if he stayed with him having no idea how strong Momoshiki was.
• Nothing indicates Sasuke couldn't beat the duo.
• Getting a good look at them means nothing.
• If he thought the Kage were good enough, that's an anti feat for the duo as the kages are 7A and no amount of screen magical training with no powerups will make them 5C.
• If Shikamaru, who's shadow possession is > the kage, though people weaker were enough to take on the duo further adds to them being a lesser threat than a greater one.

 

[Galvino]

I'm not gonna say anything else on this thread other than mentioning Shadowbokunohero and I are fine with Damage's last proposal.

 

[Damage3245]

My proposal has just been for base Momoshiki so far.

I think that Fused Momoshiki, instead of being "At least Moon level+, higher with Lava Golem" needs to be bumped down a bit. He's ultimately weaker than Naruto himself because he lost in their clash of Rasengans (well, Boruto's Rasengan with Naruto's chakra). His Lava Golem could briefly hold back Naruto's Kurama Avatar, but it was defeated in a single attack from Naruto + Sasuke, which also left Momoshiki defeated until he could absorb more Ninjutsu.

And we need to figure out Kinshiki's rating, who should probably just be Unknown.

 

[DuDE01010]

And we need to figure out Kinshiki's rating, who should probably just be Unknown.

But the Otsutsuki have more consistent feats against the kage and Hachibi so wouldn't it be fair for them to be 6C?
Kinshiki vs Sasuke can just be called a outlier like with Shin Uchiha's rating where his performance against Naruto and Sasuke is ignored and instead scaled off Jonins, Danzo and Sakura.

Momoshiki:
At least 6C (restrained Hachibi), Varies with Ninjutsu (Absorbs his opponent's Ninjutsu and returns it back with increased force), up to Moon level+ (Broke through Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto's Kurama Avatar with reflected Ninjutsu, knocking him unconscious in the process.)

Kinshiki:
At least 6C (No sold Hachibi's bijudama that was enhance two fold)

?

 

[RanaProGamer]

My proposal has just been for base Momoshiki so far.

I think that Fused Momoshiki, instead of being "At least Moon level+, higher with Lava Golem" needs to be bumped down a bit. He's ultimately weaker than Naruto himself because he lost in their clash of Rasengans (well, Boruto's Rasengan with Naruto's chakra). His Lava Golem could briefly hold back Naruto's Kurama Avatar, but it was defeated in a single attack from Naruto + Sasuke, which also left Momoshiki defeated until he could absorb more Ninjutsu.

And we need to figure out Kinshiki's rating, who should probably just be Unknown.

But wasn't that Momoshiki that lost to the Rasengan clash heavily weaker than the one who fought Naruto and Sasuke? He was only running on 4 chakra pills which is just above the 8 Tails which only produced 3 chakra pills.

And I agree with Unknown for Kinshiki

 

[RanaProGamer]

But the Otsutsuki have more consistent feats against the kage and Hachibi so wouldn't it be fair for them to be 6C?
Kinshiki vs Sasuke can just be called a outlier like with Shin Uchiha's rating where his performance against Naruto and Sasuke is ignored and instead scaled off Jonins, Danzo and Sakura.

Kinshiki:
At least 6C (No sold Hachibi's bijudama that was enhance two fold)

?

The thing is, you have him fighting 6-C characters, 7-A characters and even 5-C characters. The same issue was with Urashiki. Unknown is the best rating honestly.

 

[DuDE01010]

The thing is, you have him fighting 6-C characters, 7-A characters and even 5-C characters. The same issue was with Urashiki. Unknown is the best rating honestly.

Ok. So i'm guessing their speed will be unknown as well then?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

My proposal has just been for base Momoshiki so far.

I think that Fused Momoshiki, instead of being "At least Moon level+, higher with Lava Golem" needs to be bumped down a bit. He's ultimately weaker than Naruto himself because he lost in their clash of Rasengans (well, Boruto's Rasengan with Naruto's chakra). His Lava Golem could briefly hold back Naruto's Kurama Avatar, but it was defeated in a single attack from Naruto + Sasuke, which also left Momoshiki defeated until he could absorb more Ninjutsu.

we should remove the At least and Higher. He should be just Moon level+

 

[RanaProGamer]

Ok. So i'm guessing their speed will be unknown as well then?

Unfortunately yes, MHS+/Sub Rel/FTL, it's inconsistent.

 

[Galvino]

And we need to figure out Kinshiki's rating, who should probably just be Unknown.

I'm fine with Kinshiki being unknown for now sure.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Sorry but I’m with shadow on this. Vehemently opposed to unknown and 6-C downgrades.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Yeah, I don't agree with downgrading Momoshiki and Kinshiki to 6-C or making them Unknown either

 

[Galvino]

While I'm settling for Momoshiki and Kinshiki being unknown, my original proposal was making the kage unknown.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

For people against the downgrade, why shouldn't Urashiki scale to Momoshiki and Kinshiki?
Why shouldn't Boro be 5-C and FTL on the basis that he is considered stronger than Delta, and on the basis that Isshiki considers him strong enough to defeat Sasuke?

 

[Damage3245]

I don't agree with downgrading Kinshiki to 6-C.

But I do think putting him down as Unknown would be better.

we should remove the At least and Higher. He should be just Moon level+

Agree on this too.

 

[KingTempest]

why shouldn't Urashiki scale to Momoshiki and Kinshiki?

Sasuke fought him with no dojutsu

and on the basis that Isshiki considers him strong enough to defeat Sasuke?

He uses poison.
Strength in Naruto ≠ AP

 

[M3X_2.0]

Strength in Naruto ≠ AP

In your mind only.

 

[KingTempest]

In your mind only.

Genjutsu

 

[M3X_2.0]

I laugh really laud here. Try again with something else.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Genjutsu

Using one image as if it is the defining rule

Mrk logic

 

[M3X_2.0]

Using one image as if it is the defining rule

Mrk logic

It's not the first time that Tempest try to force this as a rule. And that's not the first time I'm against, and not the last too. Strenght in Naruto means strenght, what's hard to understand?

 

[Damage3245]

I wouldn't consider it an "absolute rule" but I do take that as an indication that statements of "strength" should absolutely be taken on a case-by-case basis.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Sasuke fought him with no dojutsu

Boruto managed to find Sasuke fighting Urashiki by following a trail of Amaterasu flames. So not only did Sasuke use his Dojutsu, but he used it extensively while being supported by Gaara. Amaterasu was used against Transformed Urashiki as well.
And let's not forget about the statement about him being stronger than Kaguya.

He uses poison.
Strength in Naruto ≠ AP

He also uses Elemental Jutsu and close combat.
Can you name some opponents that Delta would be incapable of defeating, but Boro can beat with slow-acting paralysis poison?
Isshiki was shocked Boro was defeated, even though he has been tasked with defeating Sasuke.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Yeah, because everyone in Naruto is a Uchiha that can defeat the enemies just looking at them

 

[KingTempest]

Using one image as if it is the defining rule

Strenght in Naruto means strenght, what's hard to understand?

Yeah, because everyone in Naruto is a Uchiha that can defeat the enemies just looking at them

You say it like it's not how it's mainly worked, and we've argued this consistently.

Sasori's strength is in his poison.
Nagato's strength is in his rinnegan abilities.
Itachi's strength is in his genjutsu.

That's how it's been in Naruto.

I never said "in every case". When we were in the other thread and we talked about KCM > SM, I said "Naruto is purely an AP fighter, so he has higher AP".

You want to tell me the guy who fights by stealing chakra is an AP based fighter? Alright. Go scale him with all his antifeats.

 

[LordTracer]

Sasori's strength is in his poison.

Yet Deidara said Sasori was stronger than him, and lo and behold that Sasori’s AP has reason to scale above Deidara.

Nagato's strength is in his rinnegan abilities.

Is that why he has the highest AP out of anyone else in the Akatsuki?

Itachi's strength is in his genjutsu.

Is that why his AP is the second highest of the Akatsuki?

You could’ve chosen some better examples

 

[Bernkastelll]

You say it like it's not how it's mainly worked, and we've argued this consistently.

Sasori's strength is in his poison.
Nagato's strength is in his rinnegan abilities.
Itachi's strength is in his genjutsu.

That's how it's been in Naruto.

I never said "in every case". When we were in the other thread and we talked about KCM > SM, I said "Naruto is purely an AP fighter, so he has higher AP".

You want to tell me the guy who fights by stealing chakra is an AP based fighter? Alright. Go scale him with all his antifeats.

Itachi main abilities are genjutsus, yes, but he could match Kcm1 naruto and Killer bee
Nagato main abilities are Rinnegan, yes, but Pain could match Sage Mode Naruto and Nagato could match Kcm1 naruto and killer bee
I don't understand ur points, yes, Naruto characters have hax, but their AP and Dura also are comparable to their enemies
by that logic, Madara is weak, only his hax are strong

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Speaking of Sasori, why the **** is he rated as weaker than Deidara when Deidara himself said that Sasori is stronger than him?

 

[LordTracer]

Speaking of Sasori, why the **** is he rated as weaker than Deidara when Deidara himself said that Sasori is stronger than him?

We’re going to fix that when we revise AP

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

If they didn't have high-level AP, speed, and durability they'll just get stomped by a high-level opponent regardless of poison or Dojutsu.

And let's not pretend Momoshiki, Kinshiki, and Delta don't have anti-feats we can scale from.